Brake swap FJ 1200 3CV

[FrankAerdt]

Hi all,
I've a question about changing the front brakes, calipers and master cylinder. I've found some topics about this subject, most about Blue Dots calipers.
I want to renew the whole system because the old calipers are ready for total overhaul. I understand investing in the old system is not a good advice,
so I want to do the right thing, new or very good refurbished old ones. I also change the master cylinder (the old one has already two helicoils...).
And of course change of lines (old rubber is not the best).

Questions:
- what about radial or non-radial? Is this about the brake discs?
- can you advise on the best system if new?
- and if refurbished, from wich bike it should come (type and year)?

Maybe there is already a topic with this information, please give me a link.

Thanks in advance for your help (oh..my FJ is a 1200 3cv 1990).
Frank

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[Pat Conlon]

Hello Frank, for some background, start here: http://www.fjmods.co.uk/BrakeUpgrades.htm
Because you have a '90 your forks can accept the Yamaha mono block calipers (axial mount)
These calipers were used on many different models, FZ-1, FJR, YZF R1/R6, etc. After 2004 the YZF models moved over to radial mounted calipers, you can't use those, only the axial mount calipers will work. The monoblock calipers can have silver, blue or gold buttons, or spots. As long as they are the axial mount, they should be fine. The 2003/04 YZF gold spots use lighter aluminum pistons, the other calipers use stainless steel pistons.
Brake pads are a personal choice. Some folks like the softer organic pads, I like the harder HH sintered pads made by EBC. Because these monoblock calipers were used in so many different models you have a wide selection of pad compounds to choose from.
Your existing rotors are fine, remember to scrub the old transfer layer off the rotor faces when you change pad compounds. If you want to change your rotors, a favorite choice is the Ashari rotors sold on eBay.
Brake lines you have many options. In your country, look for a TUV approved line.
Master cylinders, the stock FJ uses a 5/8" (16mm) dia. piston which will work but not give you the best feel with the monoblock calipers. For the best feel, I recommend a 14mm master cylinder off a FZ-1. Many folks use the 15mm master cylinder off the FJR. You do not have to stay with a Yamaha master cylinder, Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki also make 14 or 15mm master cylinders you can use.

New or used? You can buy these brake components used with confidence, understanding that if needed, they can easily be refurbished with oem seal kits.

I can't comment on the radial master cylinders. I have no experience with them.

The Yamaha monoblock calipers, EBC HH pads, new SS braided lines and a 14mm master will significantly improve the brakes on your FJ. You will be very happy with your new brakes.

[Millietant]

As always, Pat is right on the money. I have blue spot monoblocks from an early R1, a FZ1 master cylinder (which also gets you the adjustable span FZ1 brake lever), EBC HH pads and braided Stainless brake lines. I went with another brand of discs, almost identical to the Arashi ones (that a couple of racer pals used on the "wet wheels"), but as I have USD FZR forks and wheel, my discs are 320mm diameter vs the original FJ discs at 298mm diameter.

The improvement in the brakes (feel and control) is like night and day compared to the original 3CV set up, which actually wasn't bad as it was. 

[FrankAerdt]

Hi Pat, thanks for the information. This will save me a lot of time. The fjmods-site is also interesting!

So, I think I will try to find an older Yamaha (before 2004) as you described, for the calipers. FZ-1 master cylinder might be a good choice (as Millietant says, is adjustable).
Brake lines I will buy new (steel ones). Scrubbing the rotor faces is a good advice.

Thanks Pat and Millietant, I will let you know the result

[Motofun]

Brakes, like tires, are a personal choice.  I've shied away from EBC and found Vesrah RJL-XX to be more to my liking.  These are endurance pads, they have a bit more initial "bite" which I like. 

[FrankAerdt]

It's a while ago, so I will update on what I've done with your advice.

First the main parts, Blue Spot calipers and master cylinder. After a long search on the interweb I found a set from a FZS 600 Fazer (1999).
They looked very good (on the outside...), no cracks or scratches. Bought them for €50,-.
After arrival first thing was cleaning them complete (don't use petrol or any oil-based cleaner, only new brakefluid or brakecleaner). Removing the cylinders without touching the blue spots was not easy, but with the help of air pressure they came out. No pitting, only easy to remove dirt (I used scotch brite, make sure to make no scratches in the vertical direction). So no need to replace them. All the seals are replaced, the dust seals where completely gone. The residue inside was more like pudding, I think they were stored over a long time. I was surprised the inside of the calipers was very clean, after cleaning them with brakecleaner they were as new. New seals and cylinders in, all oiled with brake fluid.

New Brake pads, TRW Lucas sintered (Track SRQ).

Next was the master cylinder, also found one,  an adjustable RP014 14mm Nissin, originated from a FJR 1300 (2001). Bought it for €45,-.
Also cleaned and new seals in it. Top seal (cover) was ok, so only cleaning needed. That was easy done.

I bought a new set steel lines from Hell (comes complete with all the banjo-bolts and copper washers), suitable for FZS 600 Fazer. I've checked if the length was the same (it was) and the position of the end of the lines (for the banjo's) was ok, so the lines are not twisted after mounting them.

After installation and topping of with brake fluid (DOT 4) comes the always interesting part, bleeding the hoses
I think I've visited more than 20 sites and blogs about this topic, and there is no consensus about this task. Everybody has his own way of bleeding a brake system. The best advice I got was from someone down-under in Australia, who encoutered the same problem : He said "think logic what is happening inside the system, from master cylinder through the lines to the calipers. Drink a lot of coffee (no alcohol this time!), smoke a lot of cigarettes, and be prepared to use more than one evening".
In the end, after following his advice (skipped the cigarettes), It was logic and only time-consuming. Apply the brake lever, open the bleed screw, wait a few seconds, close the bleed screw, losen slowly the brake lever. Repeat 30 times. Wait 15 minutes. Observe the inner of the master cylinder, apply the brake lever only 3 mm, see the small bubbles come out of the tiny hole in the master cylinder, and losen the brake lever. Do this till no air escapes anymore. Then go back to the calipers, and bleed them as described till no air comes out. I've done this for two hours (including waiting time and coffee), and in the end there was no more air coming out of any hole. And still no pressure!!
Then comes the trick, apply the brake lever complete, and loosen the banjo-bolt on the master cylinder (just a tiny bit). Then you hear a small amount of air (and oil, so cover everyting with old rags!!) escape. I did this 3 times, everytime waiting 15 minutes, and then I got pressure!! Then I offered myself a beer.

Next morning, after checking again, no oil leaks, no air coming out of the calipers or master cylinder, and very good pressure.
After the first ride, I can truly say it was worth the work. Braking is very good and smooth, no vibrations anymore. And it's fun to do it yourself

Next project: Change of rear shock. When I bought the bike, there was a revised shock (new gas) in the package. The rear is very soft, so riding with passenger is no fun. I'm happy I've bought a Haynes manual.... .

[Millietant]

I've found the easiest way to get rid of the air from the hydraulics (front and rear brakes AND especially the clutch) is to pump fluid in through the bleed nipples on each calipers (and the clutch slave cylinder), using a small hand pump. This pushes all the air back to the master cylinders where it pops out of the top.

You do need to pump very carefully, to prevent spurts of fluid flying up out of the top of the open master cylinder - and cover everything around them with cloths/rags.

I've been using one of these mini hand pumps for quite a few years now and it's saved me days and days of lever pumping to bleed bike hydraulics.. When I replaced my clutch line last week, it took me less than 5 minutes to completely fill and bleed the system using this method 

[ribbert]

I've found the easiest way to get rid of the air from the hydraulics (front and rear brakes AND especially the clutch) is to pump fluid in through the bleed nipples on each calipers (and the clutch slave cylinder), using a small hand pump. This pushes all the air back to the master cylinders where it pops out of the top.

Yes, that's very true Dean, it's one I use myself depending on the application.

Below is a post I found that discusses that very method:

"....good luck swaying anyone away from their current method though. For reasons I've never understood, it's really hard to change folks mind on this subject, even if what they're doing isn't working.

Have you ever tried "Speed Bleeders", they're no more efficient than reverse bleeding but removes the risk of accidental fluid spill/splash where you don't want it, up top. Anything that involves pushing fluid back to the m/c under pressure can be an accident waiting to happen for someone without a feel for it. However, for folks like yourself who do it regularly it's very efficient and works first time every time.

The worst thing about a brake fluid splash is underestimating just how far it spreads and finding it all in time. I've seen many an instrument cluster lens ruined by splashed fluid and not noticed until it's next moved out into the light..... Rags make terrible protective covers, fluid will soak straight through it if not thick enough...... Dot 5 users will jump at the chance to promote it's non corrosive qualities when what is really needed is just better handling techniques...."

I have speed bleeders on everything I do maintenance on, they're great, only about $30 a pair.



Noel

[FJ1200W]

Good method, one I used on a Porsche 944 clutch. The bleeder thread being sealed also helped. I forgot what I used to seal them...

I'll never buy another German car if I can help it.

I keep telling myself a old Karman Ghia would not count.....

[nlovie]

  thought it funny how you mentioned the quantity of brake bleeding advise - so i'll add another
I often find the last bit is a bubble lurking in front of the M/C banjo bolt ( and often find getting this bit 1st helps get the pump action going ) - whilst applying slow gradual pressure to lever as per typical brake bleeding - crack the bolt at the banjo union, nip up whilst still working fwd with the lever, repeat a few times - - then when you've got some pressure apply it - hold and release to work the last of the smaller bubbles out of the M/C piston - bungie up the lever overnight ( system under pressure ) can also help get the last bubbles out - - back bleeding does all this for yi but if your only going fwd then this last tweak can make a difference