Well Perth now has E10 and similar petrols, there might've been a topic on this before but it would be nice to get some input after the Eastern states have been using this stuff for years.
FYI, my scooter has a higher compression so at present it doesn't like anything below 95 octane (using normal fuel).
Basically I need to know if there are any engine issues from using the E fuels.
My 86' is living off of the 10% crap gas they serve in Kalifornia. Almost 15 years and no known issues other than sitting too long and carbs clogging up.
ethanol doesn't provide as much energy per unit of fuel burned as petrol. You get worse mileage on the ethanol blends.
In the end it costs the same as using regular and your engine ends up producing the same emissions.
I have heard it doesn't play well with the rubber hoses on the fuel system but I haven't had any trouble.
A plus is apparently ethanol absorbs water so might clean any water sitting in the bottom corners of the tank.
As mentioned, it is "crap" fuel. It doesn't like to be "stored" especially in carburetors for a very long time. A lot of us in the states use fuel additives, one which I use and seems to help the problem is a product called "Star Tron Fuel Additive". Here is the link. There is probably an equivalent product in OZ.
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/ (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/)
I live in a climate where my FJ / lawn mower etc have to stay in storage for about 5 months of the year and this product is the best that I have found. During the riding season I add a few ounces about every fill up.
I will never buy off on why we should use good fertile land to grow corn specifically to shove out car tailpipes. If it was a byproduct maybe. Not like there are hungry people out there and that the program drives the prices up of all corn based food products up. And the poorest are the most effected.
Just an opinion. :flag_of_truce:
George
Quote from: movenon on July 25, 2013, 09:19:44 AM
As mentioned, it is "crap" fuel. It doesn't like to be "stored" especially in carburetors for a very long time. A lot of us in the states use fuel additives, one which I use and seems to help the problem is a product called "Star Tron Fuel Additive". Here is the link. There is probably an equivalent product in OZ.
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/ (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/)
I live in a climate where my FJ / lawn mower etc have to stay in storage for about 5 months of the year and this product is the best that I have found. During the riding season I add a few ounces about every fill up.
I will never buy off on why we should use good fertile land to grow corn specifically to shove out car tailpipes. If it was a byproduct maybe. Not like there are hungry people out there and that the program drives the prices up of all corn based food products up. And the poorest are the most effected.
Just an opinion. :flag_of_truce:
George
Especially considering there are plenty of byproducts that could be used instead.
Bozo
This crap should be dumped, its crap a waste of time, ITS a greenie revolution :mad:
If you use it DO not leave it in the tank if the bike is going to sit for any length of time. :mad:
My bike in the US this year was in a sad state due to fuel sitting in it for to long :mad:, all of the brass fittings in the carbies were GREEN which is a result of water which is one of its components :ireful:, also when it dries out and then has fuel flow again the particles which then break off and block all the journals :ireful:, pilot jets and make the bike run like crap :mad:!!!
Baldy
In my opinion, it's worse than you may think. As for octane, adding ethanol makes high octane fuel, very easy. Ethanol combines with water, true, but that fact becomes a liability when the sellers add as much water as they can, to have more gallons of fuel to sell. You are paying gas prices for water, guys! This excess water can cause rust in your gas tank, among other problems. I used to store my machines with gas additives in the tanks. Now, I think it is better to drain those tanks for storage, unless you can buy 100% gasoline somewhere, then add a fuel conditioner for winter storage.
Bozo,
One other problem for bikes with plastic or nylon fuel tanks is that the ethanol causes the tanks to swell slightly so they don't fit properly anymore. This is being reported by Cagiva, Ducati, and Aprilia owners.
Arnie
My 88 loves the E10 run it when ever I can.. E10 is really 95 oct. It leans the old girl up and makes her run and start better. 120000km on the clock and no problems.
Cheers
Here in the states the alcohol laced fuel also advertises 95 octane and the truth is, it will run fine. I am not an engineer so I have do dig in and research as best I can for answers. What I have been able to determine that in the end the E10 is worth about 1/2 step of a jet size.
E 10 biggest draw back for us or any carbrated engine is the damage it causes to the fuel system.. Alcohol seems to have a affinity for water and that causes a lot of the damage in aluminium / pot metal fuel bowls, which leads to crap (corrosion) sucked up into the jets. Then there is the effects of alcohol on old rubber and cork gasket material. E 10 as is doesn't store well, it deteriorates fairly rapidly.
Its funny to listen to political debates on E-10 and recently here they are pushing E15 ( soon coming your way ) :bomb:. When the subject of older auto's arise in political debates (auto's is all they reffer to) there response centers around "well they are old and you need to get rid of it for one of the newer energy efficient models".
Our laws here are driven by special interest groups/lobbyist buying political votes or trading support. In the end its to force the public to buy certain products or services to benefit an industry or special interest group.
Please forgive any errors in my statements, I am not an engineer I just know when I and others are being screwed. My experience with E 10 is in the real world of repairing and building street rods and motorcycles. :flag_of_truce: And then there is what do you want, food or gas ?........
George
Quote from: Bozo on July 25, 2013, 05:12:49 AM
Well Perth now has E10 and similar petrols, there might've been a topic on this before but it would be nice to get some input after the Eastern states have been using this stuff for years.
FYI, my scooter has a higher compression so at present it doesn't like anything below 95 octane (using normal fuel).
Basically I need to know if there are any engine issues from using the E fuels.
Terrible stuff is E10. Both my FJ and ZRX both clogged up after a relatively short time not being used because of that Gunk !!! Pilot jets clogged big time. There is no ``upside`` to this product. Seems not to affect FI bikes and really gives a hard time to Harleys and the like. My Boston mechanic did an okay job on my Kawa and sorted it, but the FJ still ran horrible until I got it back to Ireland and my local mechanic fixed it straight away. In the USA, the product ``Seafoam`` works well to prevent the Ethanol screwing up the Gas, and would defintely have used the product earlier if I had been aware of it. They claim it can keep Gas/petrol fresh for up to 2 years, buts thats pushing it !!! Always keep some in the tank, or get the equivalent in your market. Its not sold in my region. Would be good for winter storage and for Lawnmowers and things like that. Over here we have E5, which is less destructive, but I use my bikes more here now, and certainly start them at least every two weeks if not in use.
WOW, thankyou very much to all that replied, I had a feeling there would be a 50% split (for and against) but these answers blew me away. The simple answer is my bike might sit for up to 6 weeks while I'm working away from home and because I have two bikes one might sit longer than the other, so for me this is not the fuel I should be using (by the sounds of it).
It sounds like by stating that "modern" vehicles? means fuel injection type, so our older carby types will suffer from stagnant fuel but the fuel injection being a sealed system does not (apart from any the plastics and rubber bits)
Just curious - Is the US E10 the same octane as in Australia?
I remember reading about this a while back John, and it sounds like Richard is having good results with it. Heres a site which recommends NO for most Japanese motorcycles http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol- (http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-)
I'll just stick with the normal blend, :good2:
Quote from: Bozo on July 25, 2013, 06:36:29 PM
WOW, thankyou very much to all that replied, I had a feeling there would be a 50% split (for and against) but these answers blew me away. The simple answer is my bike might sit for up to 6 weeks while I'm working away from home and because I have two bikes one might sit longer than the other, so for me this is not the fuel I should be using (by the sounds of it).
It sounds like by stating that "modern" vehicles? means fuel injection type, so our older carby types will suffer from stagnant fuel but the fuel injection being a sealed system does not (apart from any the plastics and rubber bits)
Just curious - Is the US E10 the same octane as in Australia?
95 I think.... Usually no choice on the road. Locally we have 2 stations close by that sell straight old fashion gas. I use them when home but on the road there is usually no choice. If it sits that long just get some additive. Find out what is available there. During the winter I have the same problem. I try to start my bike and run it for awhile every few weeks. Just when I am out in the garage or think about it. Read the information on the Star Tron web site to get an idea of what to look for. 'Seafoam" is also a good product from what I here.
George
All we can get in Tucson is E10,in 87/89/91 octane.... No stations that I know of sell non-E gas. I can buy Race gas, but it is prohibitively expensive for street use.
A quick check on pure-gas.com shows 18 stations, most in, or north of, Phoenix. Closest to Tucson is in Benson, ~60 miles away.
Just curious - Is the US E10 the same octane as in Australia?
[/quote]
Yes and No the fuel rating in the US is different to ours their 89 is equal to our 95 sort of lol
their E10 is 85 ours is around 91
In Finland we have two kind of gasoline, 98E5 and 95E10, 98 and 95 octane. 98 has maximum 5% ethanol and 95 max. 10% ethanol. I use 98 in FJ and older Renaults. I have had no problems with gas. Not even with 1990 Renault Super 5, alltough car has about five years old gas in tank. She just started after all years :smile:. I had ran Yamaha sometimes during winter and no problem. 98 works well, I think.
Quote from: baldy3853 on July 26, 2013, 04:03:34 AM
Just curious - Is the US E10 the same octane as in Australia?
Yes and No the fuel rating in the US is different to ours their 89 is equal to our 95 sort of lol
their E10 is 85 ours is around 91
Baldy, Makes you wonder why is it different - again (i.e our gallons are different yet named the same)>
MatYI, could it be that the fuel in Finland is frozen and you need a blow torch to get it hot enough to run the bike :sarcastic:
Taking this to a side topic - why is a company like Ducati using nylon for tanks in the first place? Of all the plastics to choose from.
I'm not even going to look it up until after I post, I'm that arrogant, :) Since I was 12 years old I recall that nylon absorbs approx. 6% of its weight in water. There are many varieties of nylon. This is an average.
Of course it's going to deform. Just don't blame the ethanol. Any exposure to water moisture is going to distort those tanks.
The difference in octane is in part because the pumps are labeled differently.
A US pump lists not octane, but antiknock index (aki). That's the (RON+MON)/2 formula, which you'll also find on a typical US pump. Other countries generally use RON for the pump, and as the RON is usually higher than the MON, the numbers on the pump are higher than a US pump. The other half of the difference is that the fuel is often slightly higher octane indeed. Midgrade in the US is about equal to low grade in the UK, for example.
VP racing fuels, for comparison, use MON. Using MR12 as an example, they call it 87 octane (87 MON). On a US pump, it'd be called 93 (AKI), and on a UK pump it'd be 97 octane (RON).
Seems to me that ethanol gets blamed for a lot of problems that it doesn't really cause. That said, it's not a really great fuel unless the engine was designed for it... and then it becomes very good indeed, unless you're wanting for mileage. Does great for power, even on a naturally aspirated motor, particularly if that's an air-cooled motor. E85 is rapidly becoming a popular racing fuel because it's high octane and makes great power while being very cheap... unless you're endurance racing, where the crap mileage causes excessive refueling stops.
I did the math on the jetting changes between normal gas and a 90:10 mix, and my conclusion was that it was so minor as to be interchangable. There is a bigger variation in your fuel:air ratio between a cool morning and a warm afternoon than there is between the two fuels.
Quote from: Bozo on July 26, 2013, 07:38:39 AM
Quote from: baldy3853 on July 26, 2013, 04:03:34 AM
Just curious - Is the US E10 the same octane as in Australia?
Yes and No the fuel rating in the US is different to ours their 89 is equal to our 95 sort of lol
their E10 is 85 ours is around 91
Baldy, Makes you wonder why is it different - again (i.e our gallons are different yet named the same)>
MatYI, could it be that the fuel in Finland is frozen and you need a blow torch to get it hot enough to run the bike :sarcastic:
Frozen... Never :smile:. But if, then we just put more ethanol in gasoline. Blow torches were used during Winter War 1939-1940, not nowadays :smile:.
Quote from: X-Ray on July 25, 2013, 07:10:27 PM
I remember reading about this a while back John, and it sounds like Richard is having good results with it. Heres a site which recommends NO for most Japanese motorcycles http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol- (http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-)
I'll just stick with the normal blend, :good2:
Two years back in Ireland and using E5, no problems to date on any of my four Carbed bikes. Not sure how the Japanese MFRS can say that E5 is not suitable, if its all that is pretty much available everywhere in Ireland, and I assume Europe generally as well. Millions of bikes using E5 here in Europe that have carbs and the older rubber gaskets , seals etc. Maybe its a ``slower kill`` than E10 ???? Time will tell. I can lay up any of my bikes for many weeks, like 6-8 without an issue. So far anyways !!! But E10 seems to cross a line with them and you must use a fuel additive at all times to prevent harm. That said, the additives are cheap enough and certainly in the USA, easy to find the appropriate ones. I am a huge fan of seafoam, but there are others. The newer Fuel injected bikes seem unaffected and they also use different gasket and rubber materials that are not affected by the corrosive qualities of E10.
I have to admit, I'm would be hesitant to use E type fuel unless I had to, on my scooter (FJ) but obviously once in a while it won't hurt. Interestingly the new car we will be getting (after 22Yrs, both my cars have 500,000Kms +) is rated for E10 plus standard fuels - Mazda6.
Thanks for ALL your inputs, it turned out to be an eye opener for me, I expected more negative comments like (exaggerating) pistons melting, valves burning etc. I do agree that if the fuel tanks on some bikes change shape etc, there is something wrong with the manufacturer.
I remember the first time they brought out the unleaded fuel and I blamed my valves being gummed up because of the fuel, turned out the valve seals/ guides were rooted. That gave me a negative feeling about any new fuel thats why I asked for your opinions.
Another example is where I used (sorry off the topic) Castrol GTX2 / 3 then they made a GTX modern but without any notice they took out the zinc content which lubricates cams (needed in higher revs mostly, low revving cams are usually not affected). My scooter buggered the Megacycle cams in 15,000kms.
Quote from: Bozo on July 26, 2013, 07:25:13 PM
......after 22Yrs, both my cars have 500,000Kms +
Bozo, what type of cars are they and have you ever had any major work done on them?
Quote from: ribbert on July 26, 2013, 08:45:33 PM
Quote from: Bozo on July 26, 2013, 07:25:13 PM
......after 22Yrs, both my cars have 500,000Kms +
Bozo, what type of cars are they and have you ever had any major work done on them?
Well you did ask, so here goes -
My 1992 Mazda 4x4 B2600 has now done a genuine 500,000kms, I can assure you it does not get pampered.
at 390,000kms I changed valve seals and the exhaust valves only (the gas LPG ran too dry/hot)
at 390,000kms changed gearbox main shaft/ clutch, diff / rear end is original no work done.
at 420,000kms my front crank seal blew, on the way to Melbourne (fixed that night)
apart from that no other work has been done (apart from the usual service items)
It doesn't use any oil and at changes the oil is always clean (10,000km services) so 750,000kms is our next goal.
My second car is a 1989 Concerto Honda. I stuck a vtec (std 1600cc) in it at 120,000kms, drag raced it (15.1 quarters) and used it till 320,000kms (secondhand motor did a total of 267,000kms) till I blew the motor because a hose let go at high revs. The second vtec is still running well (gets 15sec flat on the quarter). The car has just turned over 483,000kms. Only CV's have been changed other wise a couple of clutch plates (guess why), this engine has a total of 222,000kms.
My other motorbike is the kawasaki 1978 Z1R it has just turned over 201,000kms and the bottom end has never been touched (not std engine) even the clutch is original
(if only the FJ clutch was this good)
And last the FJ 1989 has just covered 172,000kms
So now you know why we need a new car - we'll still keep the other two, the mazda for 4x4 work and the Honda for drag racing and going to work when it rains.