Looking for some help here. As some of you know, I'm on the first leg of a 4-week ride to Alaska (and back) from Ontario. Was riding with my cousin (on his 1050 Tiger) when the fuel pump on my '92 FJ died - just outside Winner, SD. Had to MacGyver it by bypassing the fuel pump and connecting the lines using part of the end of a ball-point pen, electrical tape and duct tape:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/996518_10151479524541615_1426360382_n.jpg)
Rode back into town and installed a fuel valve that I got at a local bike shop.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1011130_10151479524726615_571576884_n.jpg)
So we continued on the ride and for the most part the FJ was running fine except for a few times when we were riding on the open plains at 70 mph with a bit of a cross-wind and the bike began to sputter. Tried popping the gas cap with the spare key while riding and it did not seem to make any considerable difference. I've sent a PM to Randy for advice and may be ordering a replacement fuel pump to get shipped to my sister's place in Surrey, BC - we should be there by Friday. So I am wondering if anyone has advice on the sputtering - other than getting a new fuel pump, of course. I'm wondering why they put a fuel pump on the later FJs anyway as my '86 did not have one and ran just fine. What I am going to do tomorrow morning before we leave the KOA near Mount Rushmore is to remove the fuel filter and extra line that ends up making a loop down from the tank and back up to the carbs - going to try to eliminate anything that may restrict fuel flow. Another thing I noticed is that the bike seems to be getting considerably better mileage which likely means it's running leaner than with the fuel pump.
Your support is greatly appreciated!
Zwartie.
I am sure you are running the bowls dry under load.................The carbs have different inlet needle/seat assemblies on the fuel pump equipped bikes.
There were also 2 fuel inlets on the gravity feed bikes. Yours has only one.
You can limp one along on gravity feed, but they don't like to run very well without the fuel pump...........I'm certain this is why she starts to sputter on you as the speeds climb.....
I have a friend who has a Hyosung 650 (one of the biggest POS bikes out there) and I have ridden it on a couple occasions.........It will get up to around 95mph, where it runs the carbs out of fuel, and the engine dies..............it coasts for about 10 seconds or so before the engine will re-fire and you can continue on your way..............
Sorry about the problem. I am in Meridian, Idaho. If you come through I can lone you my pump as my bike is down for some cosmetic repair.... :good2: :good2:
If the pump is electrically failing you might pull the end of the pump off and check out the points, its a shot in the dark but if it is the points you might be able to clean it and get it running again for a short time.
Also IF NAPA or CarQuest has one a AIRTEX E 8016 S might work.
George
When this happened to me on my way down to San Diego last year after the WCR, I shortend the fuel hose so it was almost straight going into the carbs. I was running 80+ the rest of the trip with no issues. You could pick up a piece of fuel line at an auto place to use so you don't have to cut your OEM hoses.
james
Zwartie,
If you can find an auto parts outlet all the pumps below will work.
Or, just look for a low pressure (2-5 psi) 12V solenoid pump.
Its not rocket science. Also, try to keep the tank 1/2 full or more.
Arnie
FUEL PUMPs
BRAND Part No Pressure Range Max. Flow
FED-40104 1.5 – 3.5psi 28 gph
FEDTRO FED-40105 2.5 – 4.5psi 30 gph
Sold on Ebay.au by the_auction_broker (Philip Island)
* FuelFlo 015 1 - 4psi 23 gph 1.5Lpm
Repco supplied for A$110.00
Airtex - ES8016S 2.5-4.5 PSI 30 GPH
5/16" hose barbs It is a solenoid pump that stops fuel if no power
Quote from: Arnie on July 10, 2013, 08:55:11 AM
Zwartie,
If you can find an auto parts outlet all the pumps below will work.
Or, just look for a low pressure (2-5 psi) 12V solenoid pump.
Its not rocket science. Also, try to keep the tank 1/2 full or more.
Arnie
FUEL PUMPs
BRAND Part No Pressure Range Max. Flow
FED-40104 1.5 – 3.5psi 28 gph
FEDTRO FED-40105 2.5 – 4.5psi 30 gph
Sold on Ebay.au by the_auction_broker (Philip Island)
* FuelFlo 015 1 - 4psi 23 gph 1.5Lpm
Repco supplied for A$110.00
Airtex - ES8016S 2.5-4.5 PSI 30 GPH
5/16" hose barbs It is a solenoid pump that stops fuel if no power
Also a Faucet 40171 , requires a bit of adapting. has fuel shut off and reverse flow valve.
Also as James noted, I carry a 2' section of fuel line, 2 clamps, brass barbed splice and "official FJ" broken section of a pencil (to plug the fuel line, when removing the tank) coiled up in a zip lock bag in the tail section just in case.
George
Quote from: movenon on July 10, 2013, 09:02:24 AM
Also as James noted, I carry a 2' section of fuel line, 2 clamps, brass barbed splice and "official FJ" broken section of a pencil (to plug the fuel line, when removing the tank) coiled up in a zip lock bag in the tail section just in case.
George
An 8mm wrench works a LOT better. That's what the stock petcock requires to turn it..... Lift the back of the tank, turn the square end and voila.... No leaking fuel. :drinks:
Quote from: RichBaker on July 10, 2013, 08:44:57 PM
Quote from: movenon on July 10, 2013, 09:02:24 AM
Also as James noted, I carry a 2' section of fuel line, 2 clamps, brass barbed splice and "official FJ" broken section of a pencil (to plug the fuel line, when removing the tank) coiled up in a zip lock bag in the tail section just in case.
George
An 8mm wrench works a LOT better. That's what the stock petcock requires to turn it..... Lift the back of the tank, turn the square end and voila.... No leaking fuel. :drinks:
That will work to :good2: Seems lately I have to remove the tank and sit it aside so I have gotten use to just plugging the line. With my luck if I twist on the valve it will leak............. :dash2: :lol:
Wonder how Zwartie is doing ? It's good intel for us, or at least me. I have wondered how fast I could travel under gravity feed at a sustained speed in an emergency. I am glad he put a manual shut off valve in place until he gets it fixed.
George
Update:
I spoke to Ben late this afternoon and forwarded your fuel pump options to him. He also spoke to Randy who was also a great help. He's shortened the fuel line, removed the filter and it appears it's feeding the carbs well enough. He's shopping at NAPA for a pump. This is a great forum and thanks to all for helping out my good friend.
Rob
Thanks everyone for the great advice and offers for help. This forum is amazing! So yesterday morning I removed the fuel filter and ran the fuel line more directly to the carbs. The bike actually ran really well with just a hint of hesitation when riding at 80mph into a head wind. Picked up a fuel pump yesterday afternoon at a Napa store and installed it this morning. Will post photos of the install and give a report on how it's working. We're in Bozeman, MT this morning and ready to head out on the road en route to Surrey, BC - will get there tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks again!
Zwartie
Quote from: Zwartie on July 11, 2013, 09:16:36 AM
Thanks everyone for the great advice and offers for help. This forum is amazing! So yesterday morning I removed the fuel filter and ran the fuel line more directly to the carbs. The bike actually ran really well with just a hint of hesitation when riding at 80mph into a head wind. Picked up a fuel pump yesterday afternoon at a Napa store and installed it this morning. Will post photos of the install and give a report on how it's working. We're in Bozeman, MT this morning and ready to head out on the road en route to Surrey, BC - will get there tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks again!
Zwartie
Have a safe trip ! Looking forward to what pump you ended up with and trip report. Watch out on the roads up there. :good2:
George
I installed the new fuel pump on Thursday morning in Bozeman, MT
Here's the fuel pump from Napa. It came in a kit with a fuel filter that threads into the inlet side (not shown)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1002778_10151483957221615_1388108152_n.jpg)
Here's the pump assembly installed and ready for functional testing
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/992787_10151483957256615_1991961184_n.jpg)
And here it is cleaned up and ready to ride
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/31590_10151483957291615_467451073_n.jpg)
Time to clean up the work area
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/31551_10151483957331615_1643080895_n.jpg)
We rode 915km on Thursday from Bozeman, MT to Ellensburg, WA and then 360 km yesterday to Surrey, BC. The FJ is running great! Thanks everyone who offered help and advice!
Zwartie
Quote from: Zwartie on July 13, 2013, 09:02:48 AMI installed the new fuel pump on Thursday morning in Bozeman, MT
Here's the fuel pump from Napa. It came in a kit with a fuel filter that threads into the inlet side (not shown)
The FJ is running great! Thanks everyone who offered help and advice!
Zwartie
Zwartie,
Hey, no fair! :flag_of_truce: A search for the "EFT-3" FACET posi-flo electric fuel pump" produces nothing valid. A search of NAPA gives no results for FACET at all. NAPA chat techs are equally useless. What is the FACET Part Number of that gadget, and the NAPA in-house Part Number (they said it would be on the receipt)? FACET makes a dozen different units.
My old FJ needs a fuel filter, so it will need a fuel pump.
Nice work, anyway. :biggrin:
Cheers,
Red
If your riding the bike in your avitar it wont have a fuel pump its gravity fed.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on July 13, 2013, 10:02:36 AMIf your riding the bike in your avitar it wont have a fuel pump its gravity fed.
Flying Scotsman,
That is true, the 1985 FJ1100 has no fuel pump, originally. However, there is not enough "gravity feed" fuel pressure to use a fuel filter, without having a fuel pump. Since I want to install a fuel filter, I will have to add a fuel pump. Not a large problem here, but the fuel pump that Zwartie used looks small, and it's capable.
Cheers,
Red
Your fuel filter is in the tank there are also small filters in the carbs at the n/s.
If you want to add a fuel pump thats fine I would rather not have one though.
I have
84 no fuel pump
85 no fuel pump
86 no fuel pump
90 no fuel pump
just one more thing to go wrong if you ask me lol.......
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on July 13, 2013, 10:19:10 AM
Your fuel filter is in the tank there are also small filters in the carbs at the n/s.
If you want to add a fuel pump thats fine I would rather not have one though.
I have
84 no fuel pump
85 no fuel pump
86 no fuel pump
90 no fuel pump
just one more thing to go wrong if you ask me lol.......
Did you convert your 1990 to gravity feed ?
My 1990 FJ has a fuel pump. I believe they started with the pumps in 1989 (?) up. Someone might correct me on that.
Facet is spin off company of Puorlator. The filter they recommend is a 71 micron Purolator filter. The Facet makes a lot of low pressure pumps. I don't know which one NAPA sold to Zwartie but the Facet model 40171 has been used successfully in other motorcycles (KTM, Honda etc.) and has a built in shut off valve when no power is present and reverse flow valve (only a player if the fuel tank is mounted lower than the pump) . The pump is used often as a fuel transfer pump in homebuilt aircraft.
The 40171 can be bought for less than 50.00 and the 71 micron filter less than 10.00 (less than 6.00 in a Purolator box). Input and output threaded for 1/4' pipe thread I believe. I think it is possable to mount the pump and filter where the stock FJ pump is. I would be nice to have the filter out where you can service it with out pulling or lifting the tank.
The pump flows 18 gal per hour at around 3 PSI I think. We have a 5 gallon tank so can we use over 3 tanks full of fuel in one hour even at full throttle?
Randy might weigh in on this. All I can do is throw some information on the table.
The stock FJ (other bikes use the same pump) Mitsubishi fuel pump is a good pump, just a little archaic in its design. It is a electro mechanical pump with mechanical vibrating points, kind of belongs with old car radio's with vibrator's IMO. There are mods out there to lower the current passing through the Mitsubishi pumps points to reduce the arcing and burning but I don't think that is the answer. The pump can also fail on the pumping side.
I personally like the fuel pump system. I can always go to gravity feed in an emergency. I think with the fuel tanks getting older (rust and crud) and sometimes bad fuel that having a good filter in the system helps save expensive and time consumming carburetor problems. And then there is the cost/future availability and complexity of the vacuum fuel control system which are also getting long it the tooth.
I like the looks of the pump that Zwartie has and will be anxious to know what model it is and the spec's.
George
Did you convert your 1990 to gravity feed ?
No but it had been converted when I bought it.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on July 13, 2013, 11:31:23 AM
Did you convert your 1990 to gravity feed ?
No but it had been converted when I bought it.
I can understand why that would happen especially if someone was looking at buying a new Yamaha replacement pump that's for sure. In the conversion what did they use to shut the fuel off when there is no power ?
George
I need to double check next trip out there.I only have the 85 here at the moment.
Gas tank had some dents and has been replaced,I believe its a vacume petcock not the electric reserve petcock.
Quote from: red on July 13, 2013, 09:58:53 AM
Zwartie,
Hey, no fair! :flag_of_truce: A search for the "EFT-3" FACET posi-flo electric fuel pump" produces nothing valid. A search of NAPA gives no results for FACET at all. NAPA chat techs are equally useless. What is the FACET Part Number of that gadget, and the NAPA in-house Part Number (they said it would be on the receipt)? FACET makes a dozen different units.
My old FJ needs a fuel filter, so it will need a fuel pump.
Nice work, anyway. :biggrin:
Cheers,
Red
Unfortunately I already tossed the receipt in the garbage. I still have the installation instructions and it indicates that it should be the Posi-Flo 60100 series. When I get a chance I will take a closer look at the pump to see if there's a part number on it.
Zwartie
I think George is on to something.... Noel has been advocating this mod for awhile and I'm beginning to agree....
1) Fuel filter access without removing the tank....a good thing.
If the fuel filter does not have a metal body, I would be hesitant about locating a plastic body filter under the tank in the hot environment, where as a plastic body fuel filter located under the right side panel would be a nice solution.
2) Using the newer generation pump.
From what I have read, the points on the oem fuel pump have been a point of failure.
I am seriously considering installing a fuel pump on my '84.
The only type of fuel filter on my '84 is the filter screen on the inlet to the petcock.
Gravity flow FJ's do not tolerate in line fuel filters. I know this fact first hand, I tried one and it didn't work.
Most of the problems I have had over the last 29 years with my '84 have been related to the vacuum petcock or debris in my gas causing free flow thru my carb bowl vent and choke vent. As George states, much of this can be avoided with a REAL fuel filter and a positive displacement pump.
One time, back in 1992 I had my vacuum petcock stick open when I parked my bike in my garage, something I did not notice (I don't know how I would have noticed)...only to come back and find a *huge* puddle of gas under my bike and my crankcase filled with gasoline.
It could have easily burned down my house. All that was needed was to have my furnace cycle on and... :bomb:
All of this can be avoided with a fuel pump system.
I have a '92 FJ with a fuel pump system and I have never had a problem with fuel delivery or fuel contamination issues.
So what we need is for somebody to do this mod post pictures and see how it works
Rich...I will do just that... :good2:
Quote from: Zwartie on July 13, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: red on July 13, 2013, 09:58:53 AM
Zwartie,
Hey, no fair! A search for the "EFT-3" FACET posi-flo electric fuel pump" produces nothing valid. My old FJ needs a fuel filter, so it will need a fuel pump. Nice work, anyway.
Cheers, Red
Unfortunately I already tossed the receipt in the garbage. I still have the installation instructions and it indicates that it should be the Posi-Flo 60100 series. When I get a chance I will take a closer look at the pump to see if there's a part number on it.
Zwartie
Zwartie,
Do you remember the price? NAPA may have each pump priced differently, and if so, I could backtrack from there. I'd like to do that mod, but no wild rush, here, really. :biggrin:
Cheers,
Red
Facet 40171 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php) 48.50 dollars.
Spec's
• Fuel Compatibility: The Facet Cube Fuel Pump is compatible with gasoline, blended alcohol fuels and fuel additives.
• Solid State Reliability: Proven on thousands of original equipment applications. No electrical contacts. No bearings or diaphragms to wear out or fatigue. Lasts four to five times longer than many other electric fuel pumps.
• Easy to Install: Two-bolt installation plus the small size makes installation easy. For best results, mount the pump close to the fluid or fuel tank and below the liquid level.
• Eliminates Vapor Lock: When properly installed on most vehicles a constant, smooth, dependable supply of fuel under pressure is assured in the hottest weather or in high altitudes.
• 12 - 84 inches minimum dry lift
• Transient Protection
• State of the art Electronics
• Sealed Electronics
• Reverse Polarity protection
• Built in check valve
• Built in Anti-Siphon Valve (Positive shut-off)
• UL Certified
• ELV Compliant
• 1.6 amp average
• Self Priming and Self Regulating
• 18 ounces and 3 inches
• Corrosion Resistant over 100 hours of salt spray
•Operating Tempearture Range: -40F to 180F
fuel filter http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps3.php?clickkey=93726 (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps3.php?clickkey=93726)
I stand corrected the inlet and outlet is 1/8 " internal pipe thread not 1/4"
This is the Posi - flo Information:
http://www.facet-purolator.com/posi-flo-pumps.php (http://www.facet-purolator.com/posi-flo-pumps.php)
http://www.facet-purolator.com/POSI-FLO%20flyer%202011.pdf (http://www.facet-purolator.com/POSI-FLO%20flyer%202011.pdf)
I see a check valve but no positive shut off valve ?
George: adding to the pile :rofl:
Gotta have a positive fuel shut off....gotta :bomb:
Don't rely on the float needles to hold back 5.5 gallons of fuel.
I like the large filter area of the oem fuel filters. I want to see if I have room for that under the side cover.
I suspect that I do, due to the removal of the oem air box and the use of UniPods.
Perhaps a longer fuel hose where I can pull the filter can out from the side?
A longer fuel hose would allow a simple bypass of the filter and pump in the event of pump failure.
George, 1/8" inlet/outlet seems rather small....? I know they are rated on flow...but still...
That "positive shut off valve" might just be related to the anti sipon function... If so then that is not to important in the FJ as the tank is higher than the pump.
Here is the list of pumps and spec's from Facet.
http://www.facet-purolator.com/cat_part_finder.php (http://www.facet-purolator.com/cat_part_finder.php)
And yes, the valve might be the latest in medical devices........ :rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2: Might be a bit bulky and painful to install..... And then the 12v battery problem.
What's the line from "The 12 volt Man" "don't need no credit card, just a Die Hard"......
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 13, 2013, 05:21:04 PM
Gotta have a positive fuel shut off....gotta :bomb:
Don't rely on the float needles to hold back 5.5 gallons of fuel.
I like the large filter area of the oem fuel filters. I want to see if I have room for that under the side cover.
I suspect that I do, due to the removal of the oem air box and the use of UniPods.
Perhaps a longer fuel hose where I can pull the filter can out from the side?
A longer fuel hose would allow a simple bypass of the filter and pump in the event of pump failure.
Now the wheels are a turning......
George
This is a great and safe mod to do ...with a clear filter mounted in a easy safe place it will show us if we have contaiminents
Quote from: Sabre093 on July 13, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
This is a great and safe mod to do ...with a clear filter mounted in a easy safe place it will show us if we have contaminants
I have not been able to locate a clear filter that will filter up to at least 60 microns. I
THINK the stock Yamaha filter is good to 61 microns. Don't hold me to tight to that. Information on that is hard for me to come by. The Facet / Purolator filter is at 71 microns. That is recommended by Facet due to tight clearances. I would not hesitate to use a factory Yamaha filter either. They just cost more. It is difficult to find a high micron level of a fuel filter at a reasonable price. If you want to spend a lot of money there are 100 micron filters out there.
I also think the Facet/Purolator filter is a Purolator F10131. Unproven and untested.. Yet.... Facet - Purolator same , same.... A court action split the product lines up.
The cheap clear filters are down around 2 -10 microns, some are worse. The Facet/Purolator filter at less than 10.00 (more like 5-8.00) are a good value. You can change them out easy and cheaply. They screw right into the pump inlet. One side is 1/8 pipe thread and the other I think is for 5/16 hose.
The next nice thing to have is a fuel pressure gage :greeting: Then you would know when to think about a new filter....
As a note I have one in my diesel truck, indicates fuel restriction (plugged filter) or possable impending lift pump failure. To bulky for a bike but something to think about.....
George
George,
you are a living treasure, mate.
You really are and there's a few other blokes on this site with a similar depth of technical knowledge.
It's a disappearing thing, men with real world mechanical smarts that can back it up with more than impressive qualifications and deep technical knowledge.
We've got Aircraft guys, Submarine guys, engine guys, motor guys and it's continually impressive to see you posting stuff.
What do you reckon about writing a few guides for the less savvy?
Fuel pump failure is not a regular event. It might happen once to most of us but of course never anywhere convenient.
I used to carry a bit of hose for such an event.
Now, I have a $25 Facet 2-4psi knock off pump with the electrical connectors and plumbing changed over fitted to a mounting bracket so it is literally a 5 min job to replace requiring no more than removing the side cover. It lives in my bike bag.
On long trips or rides to remote locations, ie no mobile coverage and no passing traffic, I take a spare coil and ignition unit. These are not things that can be jerry rigged on the side of the road.
Noel
Quote from: Klavdy on July 13, 2013, 08:19:25 PM
George,
you are a living treasure, mate.
You really are and there's a few other blokes on this site with a similar depth of technical knowledge.
It's a disappearing thing, men with real world mechanical smarts that can back it up with more than impressive qualifications and deep technical knowledge.
We've got Aircraft guys, Submarine guys, engine guys, motor guys and it's continually impressive to see you posting stuff.
What do you reckon about writing a few guides for the less savvy?
Thanks for the complement but it is shear poverty that forces me learn more. One day an old man tells his idiot son that "life will teach you boy".... Lot of truth in that statement.
I was thinking about writing a "Quick Look FJ booklet". It would have to be small enough that you could pack it with you. My thoughts here are scattered at this moment because it is just an idea rattling around in my loose head.
You would want to know some routine torques, part numbers for on the road survival (alternate fuel pumps, plugs, filters that kind of stuff. Some basic how to / save some time information (like removing the carbs the easy way), systematic trouble shooting check list for a no start condition, always a pain on the road when you are not thinking the clearest and pissed because your bike is broke, how to limp home without a fuel pump, some electrical tests, WEB address for parts (RPM and others from around the world that fit that bill), Phone numbers etc, etc etc...
The trick is to triage the information and just focus on the basic FJ survival information.
If you could cram that kind information in a small notebook that would fit in the tail section of the FJ then it might be of value to someone.
Yes the group as a whole is very talented and full of ideas, information and friendship. I like the motorcycle but I will say it is members here not the bike....
Thanks and Cheers, George
Quote from: ribbert on July 13, 2013, 09:25:42 PM
Fuel pump failure is not a regular event. It might happen once to most of us but of course never anywhere convenient.
I used to carry a bit of hose for such an event.
Now, I have a $25 Facet 2-4psi knock off pump with the electrical connectors and plumbing changed over fitted to a mounting bracket so it is literally a 5 min job to replace requiring no more than removing the side cover. It lives in my bike bag.
On long trips or rides to remote locations, ie no mobile coverage and no passing traffic, I take a spare coil and ignition unit. These are not things that can be jerry rigged on the side of the road.
Noel
+ 1
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 13, 2013, 05:21:04 PM
1/8" inlet/outlet seems rather small....? I know they are rated on flow...but still...
I wonder how much flow area there is between the needle and seat. The seat diameter is fairly small. I think a 1/8th inch diameter tube under a few lbs pressure would be capable of pushing quite a bit of fuel through the needle seats. And I'll bet the check valve is a positive shutoff function. The whole thing looks cheaper than buying another Yamaha vacuum petcock.
Hooligan
Quote from: movenon on July 13, 2013, 09:39:50 PM
Quote from: Klavdy on July 13, 2013, 08:19:25 PM
George,
you are a living treasure, mate.
You really are and there's a few other blokes on this site with a similar depth of technical knowledge.
It's a disappearing thing, men with real world mechanical smarts that can back it up with more than impressive qualifications and deep technical knowledge.
We've got Aircraft guys, Submarine guys, engine guys, motor guys and it's continually impressive to see you posting stuff.
What do you reckon about writing a few guides for the less savvy?
I,m ex Submarine sailor. The Navy loves their acronyms and the first rule of troubleshooting was K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple, sailor.
Scott
Thanks for the complement but it is shear poverty that forces me learn more. One day an old man tells his idiot son that "life will teach you boy".... Lot of truth in that statement.
I was thinking about writing a "Quick Look FJ booklet". It would have to be small enough that you could pack it with you. My thoughts here are scattered at this moment because it is just an idea rattling around in my loose head.
You would want to know some routine torques, part numbers for on the road survival (alternate fuel pumps, plugs, filters that kind of stuff. Some basic how to / save some time information (like removing the carbs the easy way), systematic trouble shooting check list for a no start condition, always a pain on the road when you are not thinking the clearest and pissed because your bike is broke, how to limp home without a fuel pump, some electrical tests, WEB address for parts (RPM and others from around the world that fit that bill), Phone numbers etc, etc etc...
The trick is to triage the information and just focus on the basic FJ survival information.
If you could cram that kind information in a small notebook that would fit in the tail section of the FJ then it might be of value to someone.
Yes the group as a whole is very talented and full of ideas, information and friendship. I like the motorcycle but I will say it is members here not the bike....
Thanks and Cheers, George
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 13, 2013, 10:00:07 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 13, 2013, 05:21:04 PM
1/8" inlet/outlet seems rather small....? I know they are rated on flow...but still...
I wonder how much flow area there is between the needle and seat. The seat diameter is fairly small. I think a 1/8th inch diameter tube under a few lbs pressure would be capable of pushing quite a bit of fuel through the needle seats. And I'll bet the check valve is a positive shutoff function. The whole thing looks cheaper than buying another Yamaha vacuum petcock.
Hooligan
The 1/8 inch referrers to pipe thread. The drill size would be 11/32 or close to it. That would be roughly 8.7 mm ? So the finished hole would be slightly smaller. Plenty to feed 15 gal per hour continuous.
You would have convert the needle and seats in the carbs to post 88 FJ's (fuel pump models). They are just smaller in diameter to restrict the fuel.
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3AFloatValveP&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3AFloatValveP&cat=24)
These are 1.5 mm in diameter.
The gravity feed check valves are 2.3 mm in diameter. That's only difference as I can tell between the 2 needles and seats. There is no added spring tension or anything like that.
That and because the fuel pump models have a fuel filter is the reason when a fuel pump model go's to a graivity feed with a bypass hose in an emergency get home situation the fuel going into the carb is a bit restricted. 2.3 vs 1.5 mm hole plus the filter if you didn't bypass it also. Which I would recommend in an emergency.
A question that I had that Zwartie found the answer for was how fast for an extend time can we travel when our fuel pump fails and we bypass it with a hose and convert to gravity feed through those smaller 1.5mm diameter holes. Fast enough to be on a freeway and get home or to a service point.
In this bypass condition there are saftey concerns. The ONLY thing stopping the fuel flow will be your needle and seats... So you need a manual fuel shut off valve (which Zwartie did) if you leave it parked for any length of time which would be about every time you stopped for fuel or food etc..
As for the check valve design in the Facet fuel pump. I don't have a clue... I will try to contact the manufacture and ask. Not all Facet fuel pump models have the power off check valve. Or the anti sipon which we as FJ owners don't care about.
Don't mean to bore you with the small crap, just wanted to explain about the 1/8 pipe thread and the 2 different needle and seats. :flag_of_truce:
George
Quote from: movenon on July 13, 2013, 11:26:45 PM
The 1/8 inch referrers to pipe thread. The drill size would be 11/32 or close to it. That would be roughly 8.7 mm ? So the finished hole would be slightly smaller. Plenty to feed 15 gal per hour continuous.
11/32 = 0.34. Isn't that the drill size for the tapped fitting? The hose/tube ID size would be smaller.
1/8 = 0.125
The 1/8th pipe fitting appears to be more than enough to supply the fuel flow needed. Can anyone run through 3 tanks in an hour? I recall someone (slowoldguy?) running a set of the later model carbs on his '85 FJ and not having any problems with fuel flow.
Hooligan
Further to the discussion on roadside fuel pump repairs.
I always carry these:
(http://www.wiringproducts.com/contents/media/l_232f-outlined.jpg)
This will tell you if you've got power.
It will tell you how much power.
The very sharp pointy end will fit inside connectors without undoing them.
The same pointy end will penetrate insulation. Although not common, my last electrical headache was an internal break.
It will also put a very nasty hole in your finger that bleeds profusely.
I also carry one of these, a metre of wire with small alligator clips either end. Really handy.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/9283528282_ac08d72c58_z.jpg)
It can be used to check earths.
It can be used to bypass powered wires to check continuity.
Can be used as emergency circuit to provide power to a dead component.
Can hot wire the bike (if you can get under the seat)
These two items will help you find pretty much 99% of electrical problems on the side of the road, or in the garage for that matter.
Noel
I use that same type trouble shooting test light myself quiet often for tracing down wiring problems quickly in trailers and auto's. The point is nice because you can just punch into a wire and sample it.
Now if we could reduce the size in half, put in a audible continuity checker that would be nice for a motorcycle or ATV. Any tool designers out there :rofl2:.
A few years ago a friend gave me a cheap digital volt meter that was approximately 1 1/4 " X 2" long. It is real small and cheap but find it handy to pack along.
George
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 14, 2013, 01:03:34 AM
Quote from: movenon on July 13, 2013, 11:26:45 PM
The 1/8 inch referrers to pipe thread. The drill size would be 11/32 or close to it. That would be roughly 8.7 mm ? So the finished hole would be slightly smaller. Plenty to feed 15 gal per hour continuous.
11/32 = 0.34. Isn't that the drill size for the tapped fitting? The hose/tube ID size would be smaller.
1/8 = 0.125
The 1/8th pipe fitting appears to be more than enough to supply the fuel flow needed. Can anyone run through 3 tanks in an hour? I recall someone (slowoldguy?) running a set of the later model carbs on his '85 FJ and not having any problems with fuel flow.
Hooligan
Yes the fitting hole would be smaller. The Facet filter that they recommend to screw into the pump has a 5/16" hose input. As a note the output of the filter into the pump is smaller and the output from the pump to the carbs is the same size.
Here I have to rely on the Facet claims that the output of the 40171 pump with there filter for example is 15 gal per hour. The same style of pump / same fittings from Facet in other pumps can deliver more than 15 gal per hour. Getting into fluid dynamics on an engineering level which is beyond me. At some point a poor guy like me has to lean on factory claims.
It will be nice to get the exact model of Posi-Flo pump that Zawarti is using. At this point all we know is that it is a 60100 series which includes 12 different pump models. Eight that have check valves. A shot in the dark it looks like the Posi-Flo 60300 would be one to look at ? It flows 20 gal per hour.
In the Facet Cube solid state model the 40171 has been used on other bikes and seems to be a proven pump. Also note the current draw is only 1.6 amps.
What would be nice is to come up with a complete conversion option for the pre 1988 models of FJ's. There are some small details that need to be worked out and I do not own a pre 88 model so it is in theory only for me.
First is dealing with the pre 88 fuel tank vacuum tap.
Disconnect the vacuum line and use it ? Replace it with a cleaner/safer design ?
Hose size going from the fuel tap to a filter and into the pump. Use a stock Yamaha filter and feed into the pump? Use the Facet/Purolator filter (remember it has a 5/16" fuel line input to it. I like the idea of moving the filter out to an easier location to change out.
Mounting the pump. Looks like a no brainier.. Requires a 12 volt ignition switched tap. Do the pre 88's have that unused 12 volt ignition switched plug in that area? My 1990 has one there that is unused (was anyhow, now it feeds a relay to control another device).
Feeding / routing the fuel line into the carbs. Of course it is easy, just nice to have a "standard" way to do it so if there are future problems it can be corrected.. Just like the factory. In the design looking for any abrasion or rubbing lines, heat concerns etc.
Converting the carb needle and seats. It would be easy to say just use the existing larger needle and seat diameters. But the factory went with the smaller diameter needle and seats for a good reason. Whats reason ? Beats me... BUT until I know, if it was mine I would just convert the needle and seats.
In the redesign of the fuel system it might also be nice to have an external fuel shut off valve before the filter making for easier access than doing the under tank thing.
Down side is one more thing to leak or break. Kind of a personal decision.
These are just random thoughts thrown into the "digital campfire". So please don't take it as hard facts. One of the best things about this group is being able to bounce ideas and share information. In the end we might end up with another semi standard option for the gravity feed FJ's.
George
Ok, here's my wish list for my '84.
To be able to replace the filter, or pump, or bypass both, without taking the tank off, just the seat and side cover.
1) Fuel petcock: No problem there, just use the oem petcock, disconnect the vacuum line, cap it off at the #1 intake, and turn the petcock lever to prime (P)
84/85's can do this, however the '86/87s can not. *I think* they would need a petcock change.
2) Shut off: Route the fuel line from the oem petcock to a fuel shut valve, access able from the top (under seat) or right side. This is needed to shut off the gas for removing/replacement of the filter or pump, or bypass.
3) Fuel line length: From the outlet side of the shutoff, have a long enough line where you can connect to the outlet side of the pump in case you need to bypass.
4) Connections: For ease of roadside service, use 'quick connect' fittings in 3 locations
a) on the inlet side of the fuel filter
b) on the outlet side of the filter (between the filter and pump) makes for easy filter changes.
c) on the outlet side of the pump. (For bypass)
Install the quick connect fittings so that the fitting on the filter inlet, will mate up to the fitting on the pump outlet for quick and painless roadside pump bypass.
5) A high capacity fuel filter with the appropriate micron filtering ability. A steel case would be nice for abrasion resistance.
6) the appropriate fuel pump with internal shut off when deactivated.
7) Retain the use the oem double fuel inlets that all the gravity flow bikes use.
8) Change out the float needles and needle seats accordingly.
I believe Colder (company name) makes the quick connect fittings in stainless steel that have an automatic shutoff feature when they are disconnected.
Thanks Hooligan, that's a great tip. They have some nice connectors.
A shutoff feature is nice but not needed with the added inline shutoff valve.
My thinking was that you still needed the inline shutoff valve (accessable under the seat) if you do the bypass.
Until you get a new pump, you gotta keep all that gas in the tank.
(popcorn) I ran a filter when I first got my 86 running. Could only run a couple gallons out of the tank. Thought my manual petcock I installed had the pickups to high. Rode the 12 1/2 hours to the ECFR that way. Got there and everyone kept telling me to remove the filter. I didn't believe them. Finally I took it off and I could empty the tank. I would love to put a pump and filter on.. My bike had a full tank when it was parked 10+ years ago. It was dry when I picked it up. I've cleaned the tank many times. And I still have to clean the carbs of small brown bits quite often. If you guys get this all worked out. It will happen to my 86
.Thanks in advance