So I understand the fj1200 had some improvements in the transmission that helps prevent the 2nd gear popping out issue that can happen. I know it happened more frequently on the FJ1100's unless you get the dogs/slots back cut between 2nd and 5th wheels. But I read somewhere another improvement was made in 89. So I checked the parts fiche and the gears are the same... But curiously one of the gear wheels (2nd or 5th don't remember) has a part number that starts with the typical 89 fj1200 part number not the 86/87 typical prefix. I think it was 3CV for the 89/90 and 1TX for the 86/87 as typical prefixes. So it makes me think the 89 may have had the new gear and the parts fiches may have been changed to that part for the 86/87 drawings/lists. But I thought it would say "superseded" if yamaha did that. But maybe since it was so long ago they didn't. Or maybe 86/87 had the same 2nd/5th gear as 89, I don't know. Does anyone know the answer to this trivia/design question? Also are the 86/87 prone to 2nd gear issues, or is it a minor concern on a used 86/87 that seems to stay in 2nd gear now.
thanks.
The major issue with the earlier bikes were the shifting forks were somewhat weak. Mis-shifting into 2nd caused the the 2nd/5th pair to bend.
Yamaha fixed it in the later bikes, and purchasing new gears and shifting forks fixes the issue. A *few* have had the 2nd gear issue in the later model bikes, but I would imagine that it was more from abuse by a previous owner.
I am the third owner of my '87 and have no second gear issues.
it is my understanding that the shift forks were too weak in the earlier models (1100's), and eventually bent causing all the damage.....the forks were strengthened in the '86(?) and on to rectify the problem.... i also heard that it is ususlly around 50k kms or (40k miles) to 70k kms (50k miles) give or take, depending on how hard the bike was driven, for the damage to be noticeable...
The Ventures had the same gearbox/problem. The shift forks have to be replaced and the gears undercut or replaced.
Has anyone here with a 1200 ever had the 2nd gear issue?
Has anyone here with a 1200 ever had the 2nd gear issue?
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I did, I did! My 86 had the problem when I bought it 13 years ago. My FJ enabler (friend who turned me on to the FJ) told me don't worry we can fix it and proceeded to talk the owner down t0 2 k. We replaced the shift forks and two gears. We had the FJ enabler's step father undercut the gears for good measure then spent a Saturday putting them in. no trouble since.
I will check to see if fork part numbers are different. But I am curious if Yamaha changed one of the gear wheels too in 89. You can see the strange part number on any parts fiche of the 1886/1987, one of the gear wheels is a part number that shouldn't have existed then (3CV). I bought an fj1100 about 10 years ago, owner lied about the source of jumping when accelerating hard in 2nd. Since then moved to the 1200's
I believe the forks were strengthened (a second time, perhaps?) in 91. My 90 has shorter forks than the later models (or it did, they're on the bench now..)
Quote from: paulfj03 on September 28, 2009, 07:17:39 AM
Has anyone here with a 1200 ever had the 2nd gear issue?
My 86 fj1200 has the 2nd gear problem...it had it when I got it and I haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. That said - it has over 100K miles on it. I just short shift 2nd when I ride it - and everything is fine.
I can not answer about the change of the gears, but the forks have been lengthened and strengthened. I have the updated forks in stock.
Randy - RPM
Forgot to mention the '86 I have sitting in my garage doesn't have the 2nd gear issue at roughly 55k miles. It does have the heavy duty shift spring installed.
wow. :shok: thanks guys....I had been told the design problem was rectified starting with the 86 1200's. guess not! guess thats what this forum is for, eh...
..my 86 is good...(so far)...
Well I think it was partially rectified, but more improvements were made in stages. I looked at the Yamaha parts fiche and there were other parts rev'd since 86 with new numbers. There was a spacer and another gear wheel. I read somewhere that some changes were made in 89, then I found out here that forks were changed in 91. I have not confirmed it, but I think gear wheels were changed some in 89 2nd or 5th (and 4th maybe). The parts are superseded because they were compatible with no other changes. But I know the fj1100's had a "glass" second gear, as did the 84 Venture Royales.
I nearly wrecked an fj1100 years ago because of the 2nd gear issue. Was hauling a__ up an onramp with a pretty good lean and forgot I was in 2nd. It jumped out of gear and back in, which caused a sudden increase of force at the rear wheel causing it to break traction and point me and the bike at a guard rail. Got it straightened out somehow, don't really remember, then pulled over till I could start breathing normal.
One other comment. The ultimate fix (as I understand it) is to cut the dogs/slots at an angle. The shift forks get bent because of a "partial shift" and getting kicked hard by the gear if the gear pops out. An angled dog slot engagement prevents this from happening period as the gears pull themselves together.
So if you do that, even the fj1100 transmission can hold up to torture. Indexing the slots/dogs of the gears so they engage all at the same time helps too.
I believe it is called undercuting the gear.
my 86 will be due for an upgrade soon as I am starting to miss my 2nd gear shift more often these days.
I let my brother in law ride it once and he hit false neutral every time he went for 2nd. :dash2:
from that point on I was screwed and had to be real careful with the shift.
soon it will be time for transmission surgery.
I don't think the Yamaha fix worked well enough. I just had mine pop out and I have a '89 with 69k miles and heavy duty shift spring. It pops out right at about 6500 rpm and just scares the crap out of you/me. The only thing I can say is that mine only does it when going uphill and I have only let it do it a few times. Now I just shift up to third a bit faster, still enough torque and fun to be had.
I have to add that this only happens at full throttle all out acceleration.
It'll do it progressively more and more over time. You have a mildly bent shift fork (at the minimum) and some rounding on the gears, on the dog/window portion.
Why are they called dogs going into windows? Dogs don't go into windows. Cats maybe. But dogs?
Anyhow.... It'll do it worst at full throttle, uphill, with a passenger. It's going to happen depending on the amount of load placed against that assembly.
May as well give yourself a winter project and fix it. Pull the motor, split the cases, send the trans out for undercutting in second, and get the later shift forks stuck in there.
As another data point, My '85 had the infamous issue (it would pop out of second under hard acceleration) when I bought it. The dealer I bought it from agreed to pay 'half of the cost to fix it', which they said would be $1,200. Not having found the yahoo site, nor did I have a garage at that point, I did not consider doing it myself. I did find a guy locally to do the work for $600. so I had the stealer pay me the $600, which I gave to the local guy to do the work.
I put another 18,000 trouble free miles on that tranny before the bike died an untimely (firey) death. [Another reminder: Twist Ties Those Fuel Line Elbows in place, lest they burn your bike to a moltent mass of never-to-be-ridden again steel.]
Dan
thanks for the tip, Dan. Recently I took the tank off and even the clamps on the fuel lines could have been alot tighter. yikes! Hope you did not get hurt...
I also heard that the undercutting of the gears is the way to go...just to be sure , if I was to replace the gears, get them undercut before putting them in.
My 85 has to be done...caching$$$...ouch.
According to the Yamaha part numbers the 86-93 shift forks and drum are all the same. All are "1TX" part numbers. That was the prefix for the 86 model (I think). No 3CV or whatever the 91 was numbers. Not sure why some are longer.
My original '86 FJ had the second gear issue. It was an early model. Yamahaha fixed it under warranty. It too would pop out under hard acceleration.
The second '86 FJ does not have this problem. I can only assume that it was fixed while under previous ownership.
--Mark
Do you know if they changed forks or 2nd/5th gear wheels or other parts?
Quote from: capitanoinsano on October 18, 2009, 11:55:09 AM
Do you know if they changed forks or 2nd/5th gear wheels or other parts?
In my case, the local mechanic replaced the 2nd/5th gears and the forks. I asked him about undercutting the gears, but he talked me out of it, as I gather, he had never done it before, and also, it would have taken more time for me to get my baby back... looking back, I would have insisted.
Dan
I have undercutting on my kz engine, well worth the investment if you have the time to wait a little, think it was a about a week or two at most on turnaround. Will definitely do that when the time comes on the fj
It will probably be fine for MANY miles without undercutting. Based on part numbers I see a change of 2nd or 5th gear wheel and some little parts. But some claim forks were longer. Part numbers don't indicate that, but it could be that they re-used the same part number, I'm no expert, but I would think they would have changed the part number. If shifts are firm but not gorilla hard, it is a good transmission.
When they update a part, they change the last 2 digits.... ie: 3cv-xxxxx-xx-oo becomes 3cv-xxxxx-xx-01
I checked that on the Yamaha parts site, no changes to forks through 93. But curiously the 2nd gear wheel on the 87 model has a 3CV part number which couldn't have existed in 1987 as that was the 89 code. There is an optional 5th gear wheel with different number of teeth with a 36Y number, which I think is the 91 prefix. There are some other assorted little parts in trans with 3CV numbers.
I have an '86 with only 12K miles. Even at this low mileage I am seeing something. I has never, ever hit neutral on the way up. But on the way down I have this uncanny ability to find neutral much more so than on any of the other bikes I have now or have ever ridden for that matter. The transmission also has a very hard shifting, very unprecise feeling.....just kind of lousy overall.
I suppose a transmission needs to be awfully tough to withstand 120+ Hp.
What is the heavy spring thing? Do the cases have to come apart to do this or is it an external spring?
It would be GREAT if somebody posted a how to do it guide on the better shift forks and how to machine the undercut !!
Quote from: capitanoinsano on October 18, 2009, 11:07:41 PM
I checked that on the Yamaha parts site, no changes to forks through 93. But curiously the 2nd gear wheel on the 87 model has a 3CV part number which couldn't have existed in 1987 as that was the 89 code. There is an optional 5th gear wheel with different number of teeth with a 36Y number, which I think is the 91 prefix. There are some other assorted little parts in trans with 3CV numbers.
Be careful making assumptions using the parts list. Depending on which version you're using, you can draw wrong conclusions. For instance, the 36Y prefix goes all the way back to the '84 model.
DavidR.
Quote from: capitanoinsano on October 18, 2009, 11:07:41 PM
There is an optional 5Th gear wheel with different number of teeth with a 36Y number, which I think is the 91 prefix.
:empathy:
I have rebuilt over 150 engines to date. I have rebuilt, repaired & replaced more transmissions than that. I have never seen a different tooth count for fifth gear. Fifth gear is a 29 & 21 tooth gear set. If you can find a different combination, I would be interested in checking it out.
I can tell you that all of the current 2009 shift fork numbers start with 4KG and 3XW.
Randy - RPM
I know this is an old thread, but I am starting my list of projects for my '84 FJ1100 to be done over the winter. I am starting to experience the 2nd gear slip-out and back in under moderate to high acceleration.
So my question is should I replace all 3 of the shift forks or is it just one of them causing the problem, also I see discussion of undercutting the gears.
As this will be a winter project I'd like to gather all the necessary parts prior to tearing it down, to allow for splitting the cases, replacing the parts, and reassembling hopefully over a single weekend.
Does anyone have a list of recommended parts that should be replaced and where to get them.
Thanks in advance,
Contact Randy at RPM. Not only will he provide you with a list of parts, (prtetty sure he'd do this) -he will sell you the parts for cheaper than you can find them at your local stealer.
I would definately have my gears under-cut. Usually you can salvage the existing gears, but occasionally -not. If you're planing on doing the job over a weekend, this means however that the cases will need to stay apart while this work is being done. If money is no object, and you really want to get it done over a weekend, buy an extra set of gears, and have them undercut -hell, you may be able to buy them pre-undercut, not sure.
Welcome, by the way, feel free to mosy over to the introductions section and introduce yourself/ tell us a bit about yourself.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on June 27, 2011, 01:16:21 PM
Contact Randy at RPM. Not only will he provide you with a list of parts, (prtetty sure he'd do this) -he will sell you the parts for cheaper than you can find them at your local stealer.
I would definately have my gears under-cut. Usually you can salvage the existing gears, but occasionally -not. If you're planing on doing the job over a weekend, this means however that the cases will need to stay apart while this work is being done. If money is no object, and you really want to get it done over a weekend, buy an extra set of gears, and have them undercut -hell, you may be able to buy them pre-undercut, not sure.
Welcome, by the way, feel free to mosy over to the introductions section and introduce yourself/ tell us a bit about yourself.
Dan
I agree 100%....it makes a big difference especially with a 5 speed transmission. I have had Gast do many sets for me.