I was having a conversation at a coffee stop recently and got mixed views.
Do you think that being able to comfortably (feet up) do a u-turn, 360 or figure 8 without coming off the steering stops should naturally be part of an experienced riders skills or is it a party trick?
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on March 26, 2013, 04:22:54 AM
I was having a conversation at a coffee stop recently and got mixed views.
Do you think that being able to comfortably (feet up) do a u-turn, 360 or figure 8 without coming off the steering stops should naturally be part of an experienced riders skills or is it a party trick?
Noel
Party Trick. On tha stops all the way is a poor yardstick for control and safety standards. The existing figure 8 requirement to demonstrate brake, Clutch & throttle control is okay, but I`ve seen students demostrate disproportionate focus on this section of test requirement. Observation test could be better developed from what I`ve seen. IMHO
The General +1, being able to control your bike at slow speeds I think is an important skill but how often do you use this? Proper look out, defensive riding, better breaking skills these are things you use every time your riding. JMHO
Kurt
I think you should know and be able to do it. I was doing it as a part of the intermediate (refresher) course at the MSF. It was WAY easier for me than some of the others in the class. When I ask the instructor about it, he mentioned that the angle from lock to lock is generally bigger on older bikes and that is why it was easier for me on the FJ. I think it is a part of the flight envelope, and as a rider, it should be a useable part. Particularly at rallies in unfamiliar territory, I do a fair amount of exploring and U-turns. Direct application of the skill and when doing it with full luggage, it adds to the level of difficulty!
it is far more skillfull to be able to use your bike to roll an empty beer keg 200 meters without putting your feet down.
So I guess I know two of the events at the 014 rally.
I don't know about having that skill test used on an experienced rider course. I do think it should be used on a beginner skills test. I have seen and known many people that have dropped their bikes making extremely slow turns/u-turns in parking lots and drive ways.
One of the skills that is used in the Kansas state motorcycle license test. There are 2 lines, 18 inches apart and about 20 feet long. The object is to ride between the lines without your front tire touching either line and without putting a foot down. You have to take longer than 15 seconds from beginning to end. It sounds easy, but for inexperienced riders it can be a challenge.
Fred
hmmmm... was always told that most accidents happen at slow speeds...most...( H.A.R.T, when i got my p's up here..) doing a feet up u turn is pretty important and slow bike control, rear brake clutch throttle etc has helped me heaps, just rolling using clutch control, rear brake to aid in slow vehicular turning.... it probably would be a good REFRESHER for advanced riders as there are things you forget over time...about the only thing i disagree with in the rider training course i have done to get my licence was to ..." pull up to a stop , in first gear , clutch in and DON'T GET OUT OF 1st gear as something may run up your arse" i dont like the idea of that and want to keep my clutch etc in one piece... so i check my mirrors, wait till car behindme stops and then flip 'er into neutral... o that and " push your buddy on his bike to make sure you have balance"... engine off you push bloke on bike down concrete pan, then swap.... i always get the big blokes to push!!!!!
but i have never had to do a figure 8 from memory
All I can add its easy to tell an inexperienced rider by watching them at low speeds, low speed turns and stops.
Its easy to go fast and jink around, its the slowing and turning of the mass that gets them into trouble..... They get bonus points for crashing with flip flops, shorts and tee shirts... I think it natures way...
Then there are the ones with unlimited finds that buy a 180 -200 hp machine (a number of them now for 15- 20,000) the best leathers. Snell approved helmet all the safety gear out there and then bonsai around with no real experience and end up in the newspaper and on TV. Every spring here we run into that, about one a week...
I live close to our State Patrol training facility and its interesting to watch them train on motorcycles. As mentioned above, do the 180 turn maneuver. I think they use 38 or 36 foot width. From normal road speed 35 - 45 mph slow down and make a 180 within the 38/36 ? foot distance, head up looking are where you want to go, not putting your foot down. Its a simple maneuver but it will tell you a little about the riders control and confidence.
For me I can tell my proficiency drops off during the winter. I shut riding down in Nov and don't get back on until April. It takes a few rides to my get my situational awareness and skills back to a "stay alive" level. Also notice as I get older I have to focus more on riding within my own ability's which doesn't seem to be expanding :dash2:
George
Japanese Police Motorcycle Riding Competition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ-pTyQZJng#)
I seem to have poorly phrased the question. Nothing to do with tests. It was a conversation I had after watching some experienced riders making unnecessarily wide u-turns and shuffling around feet down in carparks at low speed. They suggested that a maximum rate u-turn, or other tight space manoeuvres, with feet up did not fall within the range of normal rider skills.
Noel
Anyone using feet for outriggers in ANY turn is NOT an experienced rider.... Even if they've been riding for years! Feet up, ALWAYS, any time you're moving. Only time my feet are off the pegs if I'm moving is if the engine is off and I'm pushing....
Quote from: RichBaker on March 26, 2013, 07:48:19 PM
Anyone using feet for outriggers in ANY turn on the street -not in the snow, is NOT an experienced rider.... Even if they've been riding for years! Feet up, ALWAYS, any time you're moving. Only time my feet are off the pegs if I'm moving is if the engine is off and I'm pushing....
I fixed it for ya Rich
OK.... Only times I've ridden in snow has been on my dirtbikes.... And, yes, I do occasionally put my feet down on them, even without snow. :drinks:
Quote from: ribbert on March 26, 2013, 07:35:34 PM
I seem to have poorly phrased the question. Nothing to do with tests. It was a conversation I had after watching some experienced riders making unnecessarily wide u-turns and shuffling around feet down in carparks at low speed. They suggested that a maximum rate u-turn, or other tight space manoeuvres, with feet up did not fall within the range of normal rider skills.
Noel
Original phrasing:
Do you think that being able to comfortably (feet up) do a u-turn, 360 or figure 8
without coming off the steering stops should naturally be part of an experienced riders skills or is it a party trick?
With your new phrasing I would answer that it does fall within the range of "normal" rider skills. (particularly subjective to the fact new riders are not generally the Norm)
But riding skills is a great and objective thread. I sent off the following to the HART for inclusion in their training video brief ages ago. http://www.moillusions.com/2006/03/disappearing-dots.html (http://www.moillusions.com/2006/03/disappearing-dots.html) as a way for all riders to realise that when people say they didn`t see ya (after so many motorcycle accidents) - they really mean it. It`s Reality - they don`t see you - cause you`re often invisible - so ride accordingly. (This is the area I was referring to that needs greater focus at initial and subsequent training schools ).
From time to time I will, when I'm in the mood and as and when time permits, pull into an empty parking lot and do figure 8's between parking places -2 long. I'm satisfied once I can do it without touching the side lines and get turned around before the end of each stall. Then I will ride the bike into a collapsing radius turn until I am at full steering lock, then switch directions. I pride myself on never having a foot touch the parking lot. I've gotten some funny looks from folks that think I'm just another crazy biker doing some unknown crazy thing, but it doesn't bother me -because I know it makes me a better rider. As reference, the FJ was markedly easier to do this than on than the Gixxer.
Dan
Quote from: FJSpringy on March 26, 2013, 02:38:11 PM
it is far more skillfull to be able to use your bike to roll an empty beer keg 200 meters without putting your feet down.
So I guess I know two of the events at the 014 rally.
It would be even more interesting if the riders had to empty the keg first
Quote from: NJona86FJ on March 26, 2013, 05:09:23 PM
...about the only thing i disagree with in the rider training course i have done to get my licence was to ..." pull up to a stop , in first gear , clutch in and DON'T GET OUT OF 1st gear as something may run up your arse" i dont like the idea of that and want to keep my clutch etc in one piece...
I always keep my bike in gear, no matter how long. I recently pulled my clutch at 95,000kms and the fibres were to the micron, standard thickness with the machine marks still in the steels.
Although the clunk from neutral into first suggests some dragging, it is often only the oil than keeps things spinning and there is no drag.
Noel
:good2: cool noel...i was just always told that holding the clutch in for prolonged periods can cause excessive wear...just always been a bit cautious... funnily enough i got to practise my feet up u turns through brisbane today...love the "u turn permitted signs" its always surprising how it feels... in a good way of course... head up, look where your going and loop!!! think ive got my rear suspension still jacked up too far.... just havnt had time to look at the entire bike since i got up here been flat out chasing work... and the odd joy ride... :good:
Quote from: NJona86FJ on March 27, 2013, 02:17:46 AM
:good2: cool noel...i was just always told that holding the clutch in for prolonged periods can cause excessive wear...just always been a bit cautious... funnily enough i got to practise my feet up u turns through brisbane today...love the "u turn permitted signs" its always surprising how it feels... in a good way of course... head up, look where your going and loop!!! think ive got my rear suspension still jacked up too far.... just havnt had time to look at the entire bike since i got up here been flat out chasing work... and the odd joy ride... :good:
Have you ever noticed that a car or bike, with the back wheel raised and the engine running will turn the back wheel slowly when in NUETRAL, it's the oil.
Noel
yes i have noel, i think i may have offended you, apologies for that, not intended, not at all, as i said it was just my understanding that a clutch held open in gear will generate more heat then a clutch that is in neutral and closed, taint having a go :good2:
Quote from: NJona86FJ on March 27, 2013, 05:08:12 AM
yes i have noel, i think i may have offended you, apologies for that, not intended, not at all, as i said it was just my understanding that a clutch held open in gear will generate more heat then a clutch that is in neutral and closed, taint having a go :good2:
Offend me? not at all, just passing on a bit of theory. Some people (like me) find mechanical trivia interesting.
Some people like to know why something does what it does others don't care as long as it does it.
Noel
:good2: cool... yes im curious id like to know why things do things....always learning!!! and learning and learning!!!! :good2:
Quote from: RichBaker on March 26, 2013, 07:48:19 PM
Anyone using feet for outriggers in ANY turn is NOT an experienced rider.... Even if they've been riding for years!
I always have an urge to wack the foot out when doing a sharp turn, its a leftover from my old enduro riding days. Of course on a dirtbike it is the way to do a pivot turn etc, although you can also drift through a turn feet up if space is available. As mentioned, on the road, I try to resist the urge all the time..... :pardon:
I think it's a good thing, having the skills to be able to maneuver your ride at slower speeds, as well as faster speeds...about twenty years ago, my sisters x-husband wanted to get his motorcycle endorsement and he bought a Honda 500, if memory serves, and I took him down to the DMV, so he could take his test, The young lady administering the test, kept telling him he's going to fast and that it wasn't a timed test...kind of made me chuckle