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General Category => Modifications => Topic started by: craigo on February 26, 2013, 12:16:29 PM

Title: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 26, 2013, 12:16:29 PM
As to not hijack the clutch FJR switch issue, I thought I would open a new thread and show you all what I have going on. Here are some pics of the switch ohmed out.

Here is a pic of the switch as if the brake lever while braking. Note the meter shows no continuity.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img201/4838/picture001wnm.jpg)

Here is the pic showing the plunger pushed in as if the brake lever was not being applied.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img580/504/picture002qi.jpg)

This is opposite of the way it should work. Any help would really be appreciated.

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Arnie on February 26, 2013, 05:33:52 PM
The FJR switch has both NC and NO contact pairs.  You've chosen the wrong pair.
Remember that what you want is the NO set of contacts since the switch is "activated" when the brake is NOT applied.

Arnie

(you've got a fluke brand meter, you should understand above :-)
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 26, 2013, 06:02:43 PM
Arnie,

There are only 2 posts.

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: ribbert on February 26, 2013, 06:14:01 PM
CraigO, Are you doing this because it won't work on the bike or just checking it before fitting?

Noel
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 26, 2013, 06:41:16 PM
Quote from: ribbert on February 26, 2013, 06:14:01 PM
CraigO, Are you doing this because it won't work on the bike or just checking it before fitting?

Noel

Hi Noel,

I mounted the switch and was surprised to see the brake light on when I walked behind the bike. I switched posts and the same result. Then I thought about what I had done and remembered that it's basically a momentary switch. Only problem is that it's in the off position when I use the brake.

I bought the switch new from Boats.net for the an 06 FJR. It fits the master perfectly but as it's electrical, there was no way to return it. It's been in my desk drawer since I saw the FJR clutch switch post, which is why I brought it up.

Thanks,

CraigO  
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: FJmonkey on February 26, 2013, 06:58:55 PM
Can you open the switch up? Some switches are made to be specific as NO or NC, and others have both. If you get a look inside you can tell.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 26, 2013, 07:02:22 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on February 26, 2013, 06:58:55 PM
Can you open the switch up? Some switches are made to be specific as NO or NC, and others have both. If you get a look inside you can tell.

Yeah Mark,

I'm going to open it up tonight and see what's inside. Maybe I can modify it to work as needed. Really, what do I have to loose? Seems odd that I would get the only switch that's F'ed up. And it came in a Yamaha Factory bag and label......

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: FJmonkey on February 26, 2013, 07:05:08 PM
Hopefully it has a micro switch inside that has 3 lugs, then you just swap out the offending one and your switch is good again.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Flynt on February 26, 2013, 08:19:59 PM
Craigo,

Thinking about this, I think the old switch might bolt on and function the proper way?  It's that or the new one works correctly, I definitely didn't mod that side.

Frank
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 26, 2013, 11:31:57 PM
Thanks for the replies. I just got back from taking the wife out (yeah, on a Tuesday, told you we have a screwy schedule). Looks like I got to park that project till tomorrow sometime.
I'll post a pic if successful or just a pic of the inner workings. I have a feeling that it'll be just swapping out the posts and fixed.

Thanks again,

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 28, 2013, 11:20:00 AM
Well I got the switch open and there is no reliable way to modify it. Here's what it looks like inside.

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9079/picture006ve.jpg)

As the FJR master is a 15mm and not the 14mm that makes this work at it's best, I think I will find one and do a proper mod.

Thanks everyone that responded,

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on February 28, 2013, 12:12:06 PM
The inside of that switch sure looks a lot like the stock FJ brake switch.  Any chance of reusing the original?

If you want to retain the stock look, consider an FZ1 front brake master cylinder. 

Its brake switch works correctly.

DavidR.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 28, 2013, 01:12:06 PM
Thanks David,

As you can see from the inner workings, the switch is in the ON position when the brake lever is at rest, causing an open when you grab the brake. Plus, this FJR master was in bad shape when I bought it, requiring a little mod on the plunger. As it's the most important function on the bike, I should just replace it with a good one.

Yep, the FZ1 is on my radar. Quick question, do you recommend a specific year?

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on February 28, 2013, 02:18:34 PM
Craig,
I'm about to install a front master from a first gen FZ ('01 - '05) on my '85 to retain the screw-in mirrors.  The first gen years will guarantee you a 14mm master.  At some point after '05 I think Yamaha swapped to a 15mm master cylinder on most of their bikes.

After reading your post, I ohmmed the FZ switch and it works as expected (opposite of yours).  I've been trying to figure out what the circuitry would be for the FJR switch you have and it just doesn't make any sense.  How (or why) do you turn OFF a circuit to make something come ON?

I suppose the switch could providing a signal to the computer which then controls the brake light.  Just doesn't seem like a intuitive design.

DavidR.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2013, 04:07:02 PM
 Something to do with ABS? Other than that, I got nothing....

Like David, I also have FZ1 brake m/c...it is interesting to note that later FJR's also came with 15mm m/c's
15mm is only slightly smaller than the FJ oem 5/8's m/c...the 14mm's work much better.

David, I know in the past you have been leery of grabbing to much front brake. Let us know how you like the feel of the 14mm as compared to what you had..., I like mine much better. Remember..2 fingers!!



Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 28, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
Thanks David and Pat,

Yeah, I have been trying to explain that to boats.net, written Yamaha USA, took the switch to Motoworld in El Cajon and no one had an answer.

I see a 14mm 1st gen master cylinder in my future.

Thanks for the help and proving I'm not nuts  :wacko3: :wacko3:

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: craigo on February 28, 2013, 05:01:55 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2013, 04:07:02 PM
Something to do with ABS? Other than that, I got nothing....

Like David, I also have FZ1 brake m/c...it is interesting to note that later FJR's also came with 15mm m/c's
15mm is only slightly smaller than the FJ oem 5/8's m/c...the 14mm's work much better.

David, I know in the past you have been leery of grabbing to much front brake. Let us know how you like the feel of the 14mm as compared to what you had..., I like mine much better. Remember..2 fingers!!


Or we could all wish to be like Eddie Lawson and only need 1 finger brakes...

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2915/eddie1i.jpg)

CraigO
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on February 28, 2013, 05:25:39 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2013, 04:07:02 PM
David, I know in the past you have been leery of grabbing to much front brake. Let us know how you like the feel of the 14mm as compared to what you had..., I like mine much better. Remember..2 fingers!!

No problem Pat, I have the monobloc caliper/14mm master setup on my FZ1.

I like the extra modulation provided by the 14mm master, but I swear that the brakes on both of my FJs "feel" more powerful than the FZ.  Just a confirmation that brake "power" is mostly a function of the pads.

I also recently installed an FJR clutch master to relieve the pull of a double spring clutch.  Kind of disappointed in the adjustable lever.  While the pull is lighter, the clutch lever must be on setting 5 in order to pump enough fluid to release the plates.  Any other setting causes it to not disengage fully.  Not sure I'm going to keep it.

DavidR.

Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2013, 05:37:29 PM
Hmmm, On my FJR clutch m/c the #5 lever setting moves the lever closest to the hand grip and the #1 setting furthest away.
I have the Barnett spring pressure plates in both bikes, and they work fine on the lowest #5 setting.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on February 28, 2013, 08:35:48 PM
Technical nits.

Okay, I haven't even riddden it yet.  Whatever the longest throw setting is the only one that works.

There's always been a huge difference between my FJ clutches.  On the '85, the clutch starts to engage almost as soon as the lever is released.  On the '93, the lever is almost all the way out before it starts to engage.

DavidR.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: rktmanfj on February 28, 2013, 08:36:14 PM
Quote from: craigo on February 28, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
I see a 14mm 1st gen master cylinder in my future.

CraigO

Or just use a pressure switch on the one you have...    :pardon:


Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Derek Young on March 01, 2013, 09:35:55 AM



I also recently installed an FJR clutch master to relieve the pull of a double spring clutch.  Kind of disappointed in the adjustable lever.  While the pull is lighter, the clutch lever must be on setting 5 in order to pump enough fluid to release the plates.  Any other setting causes it to not disengage fully.  Not sure I'm going to keep it.

DavidR.


[/quote]



Same with my ZZR1200 clutch master and double clutch spring on my 86.  I find it works best between #1 and #5 setting where there is no depression to hold the pin.  Slightly longer throw.

Derek
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on March 01, 2013, 09:50:58 AM
Thanks Derek!
I'll give that a try.

DavidR.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Mark Olson on March 01, 2013, 11:56:28 AM
I have the early fjr master and have no problem with the brake switch , works just fine.

I must admit I did the mod so long ago I don't remember if I transferred the fj sw onto it or if it is fjr.  :scratch_one-s_head:
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Mark Olson on March 01, 2013, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on February 28, 2013, 08:35:48 PM
Technical nits.

Okay, I haven't even riddden it yet.  Whatever the longest throw setting is the only one that works.

There's always been a huge difference between my FJ clutches.  On the '85, the clutch starts to engage almost as soon as the lever is released.  On the '93, the lever is almost all the way out before it starts to engage.

DavidR.

uhhh, DavidR  , your 93 is correct and the 85 is messed up .  try using the clutch master off the 93 on the 85 and if the release is still next to the grip your slave is hosed.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on March 01, 2013, 01:43:59 PM
Thanks, Mark
But it has always been this way.  Slave is good. 
Might have something to do with the double spring.  The '93 is still a single spring.

DavidR.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: Mark Olson on March 02, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 01, 2013, 01:43:59 PM
Thanks, Mark
But it has always been this way.  Slave is good. 
Might have something to do with the double spring.  The '93 is still a single spring.

DavidR.

spring would just make a harder pull, perhaps air in line. rubber lines?
maybe the pushrod is worn down.
do you use the same fluid in both bikes?

I may sound like a dog with a bone , the reason is I prefer a clutch release next to the grip and have always hated hydraulic clutches.
Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: SlowOldGuy on March 02, 2013, 08:41:27 PM
No air in line.  Everything bubbled up to the M/C during the swap to the FJR M/C.  I did hit the bleeder on the slave a few times just in case, nothing but fluid.  Same DOT5 in both systems.

What I have noticed, however, is the '85 clutch may be dragging more.  Almost like the plates are thicker.  When I start to release the lever, it starts grabbing immediately.  But it's not fully engaged until the lever is almost all the way out.  When out on the road, I can barely pull on the lever and it will start disengaging.  So, it's like the plates are engaging quicker/sooner but are not fully loaded until about the same place in the travel as the '93.

DavidR.

Title: Re: FJR Brake Master Cylinder Switch Issue
Post by: rktmanfj on March 02, 2013, 08:47:20 PM

Is that retaining wire still in there?   :scratch_one-s_head: