This is a serious question, I repeat, a serious question!
Does anyone here have a standard (ie power) motor and standard clutch running on synthetic oil that they KNOW FOR A FACT does NOT slip above 6k rpm and WOT in the higher gears.
Noel
I've used Amsoil for years. No problems.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/motorcycle/10w-40-advanced-synthetic-motorcycle-oil/ (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/motorcycle/10w-40-advanced-synthetic-motorcycle-oil/)
And here we go, another oil thread... (popcorn)
A marginal clutch can and will slip with synthetic oil. A healthy one will not.
The FJ clutch is marginal at best in stock form. If it slips on synthetic, it's not the oil's fault, as it was getting ready to slip on conventional oil.
Do not use an Energy Conserving rated oil in a wet clutch. Do not use aftermarket friction plates in your clutch.
I ran full synthetic in the FJ as an experiment to see if it'd make the shifting crisper. (It didn't.) In that state, it was dragraced and there was no measureable, unwanted slippage--but there was a coil spring conversion pressure plate, as the OEM setup was unable to hold with a mildly modified motor (stock cams, stock displacement) with conventional oil in it. The slippage from that was mostly noticable at 6k and up in the longer gears; after putting more clamping force on the clutch pack, it felt very grabby for awhile, showing just how much it was slipping during routine use and going unnoticed.
So it depends a bit. A wet clutch will have more of a chance to slip with synthetic than conventional oil, certainly, but a healthy clutch in any case will not.
You can also install a second clutch spring, many here have already done it with good results. Your original spring is not performing like new anymore, adding a second one will give you more spring force than OEM, so if the rest of the clutch is healthy then it should never slip.
I found that the oil used is irrelevant to a properly operational clutch.
If you have a stock clutch with a single spring and it is slipping then the quickest resolution is the double spring package or Barnett replacement.
If the spring is replaced with a new one and the friction plates are at the maximum thickness then the new spring will work well for some time. But if there is wear on the frictions the spring has less force clamping on it so it could slip.
The use of synthetic oil can amplify the underlying issue that you haven't fully experienced with conventional oil(s).
Randy - RPM
Hey! I said that!
:)
Might be a bit off topic in regards to the oil question...
So when the time comes for me to change the clutch, should I go for the Barnett replacement? From what I understand this has been a debated topic at this forum..
Have read a bit on the topic. Some like adding springs other don't and some barnett mod.
Have seen several packages of friction plates for replacement of the FJ clutch at eBay and at RPM, but I miss a "package" at RPM that contains every product you need to either do the Barnett or regular replacement.
Makes it easier for a noob like me :good2:
Quote from: keand3 on February 13, 2013, 01:10:29 PM
...but I miss a "package" at RPM that contains every product you need to either do the Barnett or regular replacement.
Makes it easier for a noob like me :good2:
There are too many options for all of those packages...
If you have any questions just send me an email and I will send you everything you need in one "package".
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 13, 2013, 01:14:17 PM
Quote from: keand3 on February 13, 2013, 01:10:29 PM
...but I miss a "package" at RPM that contains every product you need to either do the Barnett or regular replacement.
Makes it easier for a noob like me :good2:
There are too many options for all of those packages...
If you have any questions just send me an email and I will send you everything you need in one "package".
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy!
Email will arrive shortly.
Ken
Quote from: ribbert on February 13, 2013, 05:32:11 AM
This is a serious question, I repeat, a serious question!
Does anyone here have a standard (ie power) motor and standard clutch running on synthetic oil that they KNOW FOR A FACT does NOT slip above 6k rpm and WOT in the higher gears.
Noel
Noel,
When I first switched to synthetic, I had experienced some clutch slip. It eventually went away the next time out for some unknown reason and works just fine now. My engine is bone stock.
CraigO
If you are using your bike for normal riding [commuting, road trips, the occasional rip-it-up just add another spring to the stock one already there and the 2 [i think] new clutch fiber plates and forget about.The clutch mod write up is in the files section under clutch files. It is an easy mod- clutches are easy to work on. Yes there is also a wire to remove, but all is explained, in detail, in the mod. I had 35,000 mi. on my clutch when I did the mod. and fiber plates were in very good condition. PO was easy on this bike. If you have not rebuilt your slave cylinder and master cylinder this would be good to do in addition to clutch mod. I run Mobil 1 full synthetic. Stock engine.
Quote from: FJmonkey on February 13, 2013, 08:35:15 AM
You can also install a second clutch spring, many here have already done it with good results. Your original spring is not performing like new anymore, adding a second one will give you more spring force than OEM, so if the rest of the clutch is healthy then it should never slip.
I have added a second spring last summer i bought from randy rpm because i had very slight slipping (not enough to justify for whole new clutch "kit")
i added the second spring and it made a big differnce hooks up real good :good2:
how ever it is annoying when your in 90 deg F stop and go traffic (lots of extra pressure your holding back in the clutch lever
Quote from: moonrunnah on February 14, 2013, 04:09:59 AM
Quote from: FJmonkey on February 13, 2013, 08:35:15 AM
You can also install a second clutch spring, many here have already done it with good results. Your original spring is not performing like new anymore, adding a second one will give you more spring force than OEM, so if the rest of the clutch is healthy then it should never slip.
I have added a second spring last summer i bought from randy rpm because i had very slight slipping (not enough to justify for whole new clutch "kit")
i added the second spring and it made a big differnce hooks up real good :good2:
how ever it is annoying when your in 90 deg F stop and go traffic (lots of extra pressure your holding back in the clutch lever
Hence the recommended use of a 14mm clutch master cylinder. :i_am_so_happy:
Thanks for all the contributors to my clutch question.
I'm aware of the clutch mods but I don't want to increase the pull at the lever.
The reason I asked the question was to try and home in on my clutch problem.
My clutch performed faultlessly even under the most extreme conditions, that being a 4th to 5th change at redline, there was no slip, not even a little bit of feed in, it would bite instantly.
Then I changed to synthetic and it slipped. I went back to my old oil and it improved after a while, I replaced the clutch spring and it improved a bit more.
I pulled the clutch this week and the fibres are 3.0mm and the steels still have the machining marks on them, I am not hard on clutches and it has never been allowed to continue slipping once it lets go.
I don't see why you should need to add extra springs etc to the clutch if you have replaced the spring and the plates are spec. The plates in there are the same thickness to the micron as the new plates I bought this week and if the clutch worked fine for the first 80,000k why shouldn't replacing the wear components return it to a serviceable condition?
What's worse is the last oil change with synth, I drained it from one bike and poured it straight into the other, and now that one slips too.
I'm a stubborn bastard and on principle I don't want to add an extra spring just to make it work like it did for 20 years without one.
That's interesting. Once that oil gets soaked into your clutches it might take a awhile to get back to normal.
I have a positive track rear end (wet clutches) in my truck. I converted to synthetic oil and it it didn't work out to well, in the end I went back to what the factory said to use and after a few hundred miles things got back to normal.
George
I'm no expert, but... The impression I get from all the reading--and I have no good theory to explain it--is that *switching* to synthetic *after* having had conventional oil does sometimes cause problems. My mediocre theories have to do with the plates being dredged in the old oil, and that doing something... And then, there's the 'cleaning' effect synthetic oil has on the inside of an engine where crud would have accumulated before.
Don't know. But I'd be curious to hear if replacing your plates changes things, simply because fresh plates that have never been in conventional oil might make a difference.
Just a hunch from my hours and hours of reading about oils and peoples' opinions and experiences with them in old jap bikes...
Me personally, I finally 'converted' to synth (Rotella 5w40). But the bike has a complicated history, so I can't be of help--the previous owner mentioned that he had converted to synth, and the bike stopped burning oil. I at the time didn't believe that, so I switched back to conventional rotella. The bike did indeed burn oil, and the clutch had some slip at high torque surges--say, 4 or 5k on 2nd or 3rd and then snapping back the throttle, for example. I actually just credit this to clutch wear, given that the bike now has 73.5k (had 65k when I got it in November I think?), and so probably needs new wear plates and spring. However, given the freezing days and frequent rain we've had recently, and some more reading, I finally decided to give synthetic a go and put the bike back on synthetic.
True to form, the bike doesn't burn oil currently. I do feel like it is gentler on the bike for cold starts, and that it warms up faster. The clutch slip did not go away.
But I wonder if maybe the clutch slip (going with my irrational theory above) might have been introduced when the previous owner switched to synthetic, and never went away after.
Who knows! Reading this thread with interest anyways. Pretty sure DavidR has said he's been using synth for about 200 years and never had anything but good things to say about it, but I guess he probably doesn't run a stock clutch, eh? (correct me if I'm wrong!)
My reasoning is that if the fibres are the same thickness as new and the spring is fresh it should be as it left the factory, but it's not.
I am not an oil expert and have no interest in becoming one but one theory I have is that something in the synthetic has impregnated the fibre plates reducing friction. This has some weight to it as a number of people here have mentioned that over time, after going back to mineral oil, things improved and mine had been improving very slowly. Perhaps if I was harder on the clutch or drag raced at the weekends this process would be accelerated.
If the new plates do the trick, I might clean the old ones with brake cleaner and reinstall just to see what happens.
Although the plates are spec thickness I will replace them with new ones, I had already bought them. I will road test in the next few days. It's not easy finding somewhere close by to ring it out in the higher gears without the risk of having the bike AND myself impounded.
I'm sure when Yamaha were doing the R&D on the clutches they did not factor in super slippery oil.
It has been said here that the clutches are marginal. If it worked perfectly for 20 years and still looks and measures spec, that's all it has to do. Designing a big margin into it is unnecessary and would just make the clutch heavier. I don't believe slipping clutches were ever an issues in the bikes early life.
I will report my findings.
Noel
just a thought (im not trying to sound degrading) but are you using motorcycle oil or some sorts with the clutch additvie in it or is it just straigh syn motor oil
i am not an oil expert either but if i remember correctly ATF or tannsmision oil is much more of a cleaning agent then syn oil but is made to work with the clutches in the tranny
also how about adding a friction moddifier like in a lsd rear end
The factory does a lot of things for marketing purposes... One is installing a clutch spring that "feels good" to a buyer on the showroom floor. It may work great for the 1st few thousand miles, and then starts getting too "light" and allows slippage, usually about the same time the bike gets parked.... We all know that most people that buy motorcycles only put a few thou' miles on them anyways, how many bikes have we seen that were parked with 4000 or 5000 miles and sat 'til someone like us ressurected them?
Quote from: moonrunnah on February 14, 2013, 05:09:02 PM
just a thought (im not trying to sound degrading) but are you using motorcycle oil or some sorts with the clutch additvie in it or is it just straigh syn motor oil
i am not an oil expert either but if i remember correctly ATF or tannsmision oil is much more of a cleaning agent then syn oil but is made to work with the clutches in the tranny
also how about adding a friction moddifier like in a lsd rear end
I was using motorbike specific synthetic oil. Shell / Motul.
I've been running MC-specific semi-synth for years and no problems. Had some early on, running energy-saving car oil... replaced a couple burnt steels and a glazed fiber, put in a 2nd spring and none since then. I still need to get rid of the smaller plate and remove the wire/spring...
Quote from: RichBaker on February 14, 2013, 06:15:10 PM
I've been running MC-specific semi-synth for years and no problems. Had some early on, running energy-saving car oil... replaced a couple burnt steels and a glazed fiber, put in a 2nd spring and none since then. I still need to get rid of the smaller plate and remove the wire/spring...
I'm being a bit pedantic here I know, but to me the second spring fix is masking the problem not fixing it and detracts from the ease of use of the controls. Also, I am a two finger clutch user.
This only happens under extreme load and is not evident in normal riding, unless your riding style sees you frequently at redline in high gears.
Noel
Quote from: RichBaker on February 14, 2013, 05:58:20 PM
The factory does a lot of things for marketing purposes... One is installing a clutch spring that "feels good" to a buyer on the showroom floor. It may work great for the 1st few thousand miles, and then starts getting too "light" and allows slippage, usually about the same time the bike gets parked.... We all know that most people that buy motorcycles only put a few thou' miles on them anyways, how many bikes have we seen that were parked with 4000 or 5000 miles and sat 'til someone like us ressurected them?
I don't think manufacturers stoop to these practices, it's not necessary. If the above scenario were to happen the weakness would become common knowledge very quickly and have a far more detrimental effect on sales. Cars or bikes that develop flaws early in their life are the result of an unforeseen design or manufacturing problem, not a marketing exercise. Nobody builds a vehicle with a designed in weakness just to get them off the showroom floor.
Bikes don't have heavy clutches anymore. Hyabusa's, R1's, BMW's can get nearly 200hp to the wheel with a light clutch feel.
And, my clutch was perfect for 80,000k's.
Noel
FWIW,
The first gen R1 clutch is identical to the FJ clutch.
DavidR.
IMHO, it's all about the clamping force of the clutch spring (or lack there of)....and not the oil.
I have a light 2 finger clutch with no slipping on 20-50 synthetic and handling the torque of a 1350 engine.
A Barnett coil spring clutch and FJR m/c will do that for you...
Leon said it best, "You will never find your kookaloo with a shitty clutch"...(spring)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2013, 08:39:31 PM
IMHO, it's all about the clamping force of the clutch spring (or lack there of)....and not the oil.
I have a light 2 finger clutch with no slipping on 20-50 synthetic and handling the torque of a 1350 engine.
A Barnett coil spring clutch and FJR m/c will do that for you...
Leon said it best, "You will never find your kookaloo with a shitty clutch"...(spring)
Can't agree with you on that Pat. It's about both. When the clutch is released not all the oil between the plates is expelled and the plates hold oil, the slipperiness of the film that remains will contribute to how well it holds. Ever driven (or tried to drive) a car where the rear main has let go and got oil on the clutch.
I have no doubt that increasing the clamping force on the clutch then overcoming that by increasing the advantage at the lever works.
I don't appear to have made myself clear. I'm not looking for A solution, I'm looking for MY solution. I know all the popular mods to overcome a slipping clutch but that was not my quest.
If a standard clutch can work flawlessly for 80,000k and I have not increased the power of the motor, why can't I just replace the worn bits, being the spring and the fibres, and return it to that condition.
Unless a part on a vehicle is known to fail prematurely or is inadequate from the onset it is common practice to replace it with the same part when it wears out and expect it to restore as new performance.
In this case I don't seen why that replacement part has to be beefed up on the original just to perform the original task.
There appears to be a lot of people out there running double springs etc on standard motors. I don't understand why.
I am not trying to win anyone over here nor promote a particular fix. I am just explaining why I asked the question and what I'm trying to achieve.
Noel
Noel, sure, no problem, you can replace your weak diaphragm spring with a new oem spring and things will be better for the next 80,000k...until you have to do it again....and again.
I guess it depends on how long you want to keep your FJ....and how many times you want to buy a new spring.
I've had my '84 FJ for 28 years now and in '96 went to the Barnett and have never looked back. I did change the fibers in '99 but never the coil springs.
Therefore...I'll bet you a jelly donut that my 6 coil springs will last longer than your oem diaphragm spring.
Besides, the Barnett spring is not that expensive, and is upgradable with heavier coils if need be.
I'm just saying, if you are gonna fix it, and you want to do it once, do it right.
If you don't like the heavy pull of a double diaphragm spring, (and I don't) consider a coil spring conversion.
Do it once and be done with it.
Kookaloo amigo!
Quote from: ribbert on February 15, 2013, 01:06:55 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2013, 08:39:31 PM
IMHO, it's all about the clamping force of the clutch spring (or lack there of)....and not the oil.
I have a light 2 finger clutch with no slipping on 20-50 synthetic and handling the torque of a 1350 engine.
A Barnett coil spring clutch and FJR m/c will do that for you...
Leon said it best, "You will never find your kookaloo with a shitty clutch"...(spring)
If a standard clutch can work flawlessly for 80,000k and I have not increased the power of the motor, why can't I just replace the worn bits, being the spring and the fibres, and return it to that condition.
Noel
If all is returned to standard condition, the only possible variable is the oil makeup since manufacture. Today`s Motul 10/50 will slip on all 3 of my FJ`s. 10/40 won`t. (Just). So i agree with you Noel. But aren`t the newer oils better for other bits? - ummm ...sounds like a barnett for my beefed up motor for sure. (When I build it) - meanwhile I`ll stick with standard Clutch & 10/40 Motul. (A bit expensive, but I buy in bulk). Dare ya go. (popcorn)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2013, 01:52:56 AM
Noel, sure, no problem, you can replace your weak diaphragm spring with a new oem spring and things will be better for the next 80,000k...until you have to do it again....and again.
I guess it depends on how long you want to keep your FJ....and how many times you want to buy a new spring.
I've had my '84 FJ for 28 years now and in '96 went to the Barnett and have never looked back. I did change the fibers in '99 but never the coil springs.
Therefore...I'll bet you a jelly donut that my 6 coil springs will last longer than your oem diaphragm spring.
Besides, the Barnett spring is not that expensive, and is upgradable with heavier coils if need be.
I'm just saying, if you are gonna fix it, and you want to do it once, do it right.
If you don't like the heavy pull of a double diaphragm spring, (and I don't) consider a coil spring conversion.
Do it once and be done with it.
Kookaloo amigo!
I have no doubt the coil spring pressure plate will outlast the standard one. It is a superior design and what they used to use. The FJ spring is a poor mans version of a car pressure plate.
Not sure I'll be in any condition to worry about the clutch in another 28 years though. I'll be happy if I'm wiping my own chin!
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on February 15, 2013, 08:26:51 AM
Not sure I'll be in any condition to worry about the clutch in another 28 years though. I'll be happy if I'm wiping my own chin!
Ha! Yea, I hear you...
It's not the next 28 years you have to worry about, but the next 80,000k (54k miles)
Before we talk about returning the clutch to OEM spec and why it isn't working as it did when new...
The rest of the bike is stock as well then yes? You're still using a tire designed in the 80's, of the stock size?
A friend's VMax had a similar problem. The stock clutch was fine, but he could fry the tire through third gear on the right type of pavement. No problem, a bit more meat for the next tire gave him the grip he was looking for.... except that the clutch started slipping. Turns out it it wasn't the weakest link until the tire was uprated. Improving his clutch with another spring (they're quite similar to the FJ internally) gave him the ability to really put the power down. Until the driveshafts started breaking. He's been through three, I think, and everything is properly aligned and in good working order.
Apparently he's got a good motor in his `max. Even with the motor causing clutch slip, he was quite significantly quicker than another very similiar Vmax (his is a 93, and he walked away from a lighter rider on a healthy `85).
The clutch is only one link in a fairly long string of things that puts power to the ground... A lesson I learned rather expensively with a car some years ago. (New tires mean the ujoints went, then the clutch fried, then the diff exploded, then the bellhousing cracked, then the trans did... then I sold the SOB before I went totally broke!)
All that said, I have to also point out that a coil spring conversion can and will increase the pull required at the lever. It's a direct linkage of sorts, so the energy is coming from your fingers = more clamping force = more clamping force to overcome. A smaller bore master cylinder will fix this. That said, you don't have to use the springs that come with the conversion kit. If you wanted to get fancy, I'd wager you could find something lighter than what's included, yet heavy enough to do the work. You'd be on your own a bit, but I'm sure some research would provide a solution (at worst running half the springs of a much heavier form or something).
Quote from: ribbert on February 13, 2013, 05:32:11 AM
This is a serious question, I repeat, a serious question!
Does anyone here have a standard (ie power) motor and standard clutch running on synthetic oil that they KNOW FOR A FACT does NOT slip above 6k rpm and WOT in the higher gears.
Noel
hey Noel , I have your answer . :yahoo:
I have documented research and testing on this very subject exactly fitting your criteria .
my 86 fj1200 was previously owned by a friend of mine and the testing started in 2001.
in 2001 the 86 was totally stock with 5k miles on it. running on dino oil the clutch did not slip at all in any gear or rpm when my 250lb friend rode it.
I was 280lbs at that time, and when I rode the fj it would only slip the clutch at red line power shifts , wot balls out . but it held for my friend when he did it.
the extra 30 lbs rider weight made all the difference in how much a stock clutch could take.
I talked him into synthetic motorcycle specific oil (amsoil) and now the clutch slipped for both of us for a period of 200 miles till the clutch fibers got used to it.
now the clutch went back to full strength with no slipping for either of us no matter how it was abused. the only exception was a very hot day (over 105 degrees )
The time was 2001-2003 , location of testing was desert hot springs Ca. during all times of the year . Hard to believe I didn't run into Pat back then.
Anyway how I ended up with the 86fj is another story.
moving forward :
I am currently testing Zari's fj with a stock clutch , we removed the small fiber and replaced it with a full one and replaced the old spring with a new one.
It has been 2 yrs now with this setup and it works great on synthetic oil. no slips at all and the clutch pull is nice and easy. :shok:
This would be my current recommendation to any one who wants to beef up their clutch. :good2:
I hope this helps you in your search for kookaloo.
Hey Noel. I have been using Rotella T Synth 5w40 for the last couple of seasons. No slippage. I also have my clutch spring doubled up with FJR spring and 14mm master cylinder. Smooth a silk... :good2: and has the ultra trick adjustable lever.
Cheers...Jake