Hi all,
one of the things that I still have on my list is to incorporate a Lockhart Oil-thermostat
(https://www.denniskirk.com/dk/product_images/bp/600pix/bp180c.jpg)
(that I have since the late 80's) into the oilcoolerlines.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/YAMAHA-FJ-1100-Olkuehler-Leitungen-Olleitungen-Kuehler-47-E-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqZ,!oQFB,BwnRyyBQk8,2mGYQ~~60_12.JPG)
Because all 4 pipes on the thermostat are more or less flared, I guess it is meant to be connected by means of opening up the braided rubber part of the lines and ensure a tight
fit by means of hose clamps.
I'd rather do it by means of fittings, because I don't trust the forementioned method.
Concrete question: has any of you ever built-in such a thermostat ? If so, how ?
Thanks in advance,
Jaap
Jaap.
Any way you do it, the fittings on the thermostat are designed for hose clamps.
You could build a set of custom lines with proper fittings to attach to the oil cooler and the oil pan. Randy offers such fittings at RPM. However, the oil cooler pump is a low pressure curculation pump so you should be able to use hose clamps without leaking.
I don't know about splicing the thermostat into the stock lines, but it "should" work as long as the lines are kept off of the exhaust pipes.
I ran an aftermarket Lockhart oil cooler on an '82 XJ1100 and it used rubber hoses and hose clamps without any problems.
DavidR.
....or you could buy a RPM oil cooler which has a built in thermostat.....
....along with better cooling the summer! It's a very nice product.
That was going to be my first suggestion, but he said he already had the thermostat.
DavidR.
All summers I ride on Europe with my friend JC, another FJ owner. We have been discussing about the Randy cooler with the thermostat included.
We both like our bikes for the simplicity: There are only a few things that you can break in the middle of nowhere, in Croatia or Portugal or a lost village in mainland Spain or Switzerland, most probably levers in any stupid crash, like 4 years ago. A set of spare levers that carried with us and a little of gaffa tape avoided to get the travel interrupted
If you have a thermostat is another thing that could break. Are we correct?
Quote from: Alf on December 21, 2012, 01:57:37 AM
All summers I ride on Europe with my friend JC, another FJ owner. We have been discussing about the Randy cooler with the thermostat included.
We both like our bikes for the simplicity: There are only a few things that you can break in the middle of nowhere, in Croatia or Portugal or a lost village in mainland Spain or Switzerland, most probably levers in any stupid crash, like 4 years ago. A set of spare levers that carried with us and a little of gaffa tape avoided to get the travel interrupted
If you have a thermostat is another thing that could break. Are we correct?
No, you are not correct. A thermostat is a simple device. I can think of 20 things more likely to leave you stranded in a remote location than that, even on a "simple" bike like the FJ.
I "broke" an engine from chronic overheating, a perfectly good motor with only 40,000 k's. It needed a rebore and new pistons. If only I'd had a better oil cooler with a thermostat, hmmm.
Also everything in your engine is happier if you can narrow the temperature operating range.
Nobody removes the thermostat from their car before a trip in case it fails on route.
Noel
The car example is not good, I think. Nobody removes the thermostat in a water cooled vehicle because on cold temperature the engine wear is excessive
And in fact I prefer to travel with an oil/air cooled engine because if the head gasket go you only have a oil split. In a water cooled vehicle you break the complete engine... and your hollyday travel sink... in my case at more than 3.000 kms from my island
I have fitted a big oil cooler. In fact a thermostat would be nice, because my FJ take a long time to get the correct operating temperature even in Tenerife, but with bigger tolerances than a water cooled engine, it is only feel in a little oil consumption in a daily use. And I know that it comes from that, because all day of fast riding there is no oil spent
I will speak with Randy about the technical issues... but I´m afraid about it, because I´m sure he is going to convince me to fit it
Quote from: Alf on December 21, 2012, 07:39:18 AM
And in fact I prefer to travel with an oil/air cooled engine because if the head gasket go you only have a oil split. In a water cooled vehicle you break the complete engine...
Alf, what is it with you worrying about everything breaking. How often do you hear about catastrophic head gasket failure on a modern engine these days.
Noel
Mmmmmm Good question. A friend of mine who works in a road assistance service says me than he is all day transporting BMW bikes because of electronic faults
A thermostat can most definitely break. Specifically at any of the multiple junctions that were added to install the kit. That's mitigated by the fact that everything got a once-over when you install it, yes?
I've done a head gasket in a air cooled bike as well as a water cooled bike. The only difference was that one could be done in the frame and one could not, and that has little to do with engine design and more to do with frame design.
Realistically the most dangerous thing to break when you're out playing on the road? Traction, at the wrong time.
Back to the main subject, I grasp what a thermostat does and the function. I just cannot fathom a good rationale for putting one in an oil line. If the swing between the viscosity of cold oil and warm oil is that great to cause such trouble, you're using the wrong oil for the circumstances, and I don't want to ride where it goes from that cold to that hot quickly. :) A thermostat in the oil cooling system isn't going to let the bike run cooler, because you're not going to dissapate any extra heat. In theory it'll let it get to temp faster, which is not a bad thing, but being gentle with a cold motor often translates to being gentle on cold tires (nevermind on cold reflexes, so to speak) and that's a good thing.
I agree with you, andyb. Being gently with the gas until my oil gauge indicate 80º I think is enough
The only time in more than 500.000 Kms in my FJs that I´ve been recovered by a road assistance service was last September when I broke my pull throttle cable at 50 kms from home only. And I realized that in our travels we take sparks, wd40, hand & feet levers, oil filters, bulbs and even a clutch slave cylinder repair kit, but no throttle cables :dash2: :dash2:
I know "some" people who tie wrap an extra pull cable onto the old cable just in case.
DavidR.
Quote from: andyb on December 21, 2012, 11:35:41 AM
A thermostat in the oil cooling system isn't going to let the bike run cooler, because you're not going to dissapate any extra heat.
The idea of a thermostat in the oil cooling system IS to let the engine run cooler in that you can run a much larger / efficient cooler and only tap into 100% of its capacity when needed in extreme conditions.
Not quite as important but quicker oil warm up is also a good thing. Oil takes a lot longer to warm up than the rest of the engine.
Yes thermostats can break, so can every other thing on the bike, but it's about probability.
I once had a Suzuki 750 bought new and it broke down in a very remote location with only 22,500 miles on it. I determined the ignition unit was the problem, it had power but no spark. I transported the bike and garaged it at the nearest town and made my way home, 1000km's away. A week later, armed with a complete ignition unit, I returned by train. I removed the side cover, undid the screws the holding the unit in and as I removed it the last inch of the crankshaft fell on the ground! It had a casting flaw in it. Having only enough money on me for fuel and a bit of food and being pre credit card days, getting myself and the bike home was quite a saga.
However, I did not determine from that point on to always carry a spare crankshaft with me on every subsequent bike I owned.
It's about probability and weighing up the advantages versus the risk.
The fact that we even ride bikes makes us higher than average risk takers in itself.
I like my fully loaded car with all its toys and gizmos, yes, more to go wrong, but the added driving pleasure outweighs the unlikely event of an oscillating air vent failure.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on December 21, 2012, 05:43:52 PM
The idea of a thermostat in the oil cooling system IS to let the engine run cooler in that you can run a much larger / efficient cooler and only tap into 100% of its capacity when needed in extreme conditions.
Not quite as important but quicker oil warm up is also a good thing. Oil takes a lot longer to warm up than the rest of the engine.
The thermostat does not add any appreciable cooling. That's the job of the cooler, so installing a thermostat alone isn't going to do much that's useful.
The oil takes a good five minutes of use to get to temp, just like tires do. I stand by my assessment that you should just be easy on the motor until the tires are warm. It really only makes sense to me if you park the bike overnight atop a mountain where it's quite cold, and then ride down into a hot desert, and a bigger cooler would be time better spent than a thermostat for the oil.
As for installing throttle cables side by side and only connecting one... that's a fairly normal thing for dirtbikers, I thought? Also clutch cables, where applicable. On the FJ's push/pull setup, you should be able to just swap half of the push cable for the broken one and carry on, assuming you've got the tools and started with all four cables when you set off.
As for installing throttle cables side by side... in my 1100 I covered 170.000 kms without any cable broken and in my actual 1200 the throttle cable has resisted 190.000 kms (less quality than the OE one? :rofl2: ) and 23 years
A bit superfluous, I think
Thermostat: A device that is used to control temperature.
So, why they need for a thermostat for the FJ?
Only one reason and it is not for "additional" cooling. Additional cooling can only be done by a different oil cooler (addressed below)
The thermostat pictured is a oil cooler
bypass valve to eliminate the oil passing through the cooler allowing it to come up to operating temperature sooner. The question I have first, is what is the temp the thermostat is set to open?
Now, the thermostat is going to be controlled by a heat sensing mechanism (bi-metal spring) or expansion bulb internally which can fail. When it does fail, does it fail in the open or closed position? If it fails in the open position, who cares the oil will still flow through the cooler, but if it fails closed, then you now have no cooler.
Now, the cooler I am offering has a built in "thermostat" based on oil viscosity and resistance to flow. This means the cooler has a couple of tubes that allow the flow of the thicker/colder oil while the remainder of the cooler will not flow the oil due to the thickness. Mike Ramos was the first one to bring this to my attention as he noted in his winter travels the stock cooler was allowing the oil temps to drop as the cooler was "over-cooling" the oil. The shown inline thermostat might do the same thing depending on the oil temp settings and if it allows partial bypass.
Quote from: Mike Ramos on August 25, 2012, 07:24:37 PM
...The oil cooler itself as well as all the fittings have remained sound (after many thousands of miles) and the nice ting is that until it gets uncomfortably cold for the rider, the cooler maintains the oil temperature at 180 degrees which does not over cool the engine.
Ride safe, Mike Ramos.
Now, we had this similar discussion about the cooler design/size and such in this topic from about post 16 forward.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7822.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7822.0)
The thermostat portion of my cooler was discussed here towards the bottom of the post;
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 09, 2012, 12:41:09 PM
1) Couldn't this be accomplished with a restriction on the outlet side? I see where a small hose on the outlet side would cause back pressure, but does the inlet hose also need to be small?
A) Yes & no...The back pressure within the cooler is still going to dictate flow. If you have a large hose & cooler with a restrictor at the outlet, then you will have a back up trying to force the oil through the restrictor. That will slow the flow and fill the cooler, but then you have to control the flow to allow the cooler to work efficiently.
2) I would think the volume of oil being pumped would determine how much of the cooler gets used? A small amount of oil supplied at high pressure is still going to run to the bottom of the cooler. Conversely, a large amount of oil at low pressure would use the whole cooler if it is more than the cooler can flow.
A) We cannot confuse pressure & volume. They are two different things that must work together. If a small volume of oil at high pressure is put through a cooler that is restricted, pressure wise, then the cooler will fill completely, but once filled could actually raise the pressure.
And the same can happen on a low pressure/high volume, depending on the cooler, could actually raise the pressure as well.
3) Sometimes this stuff is counter intuitive. Like a radiator. People used to remove the thermostat in an attempt to get an engine to run cooler. That usually causes the engine to overheat since the water flows right through the radiator and doesn't spend enough time sitting in it and shedding heat.
Exactly, that is why if you are not going to run a thermostat, you should run the appropriate restrictor. The water pump can pump the water too fast through the radiator. But if you reduce the size of the radiator and increase pressure then it will cooler better...
As far as the FJ is concerned since the cooler size is the biggest factor when mounting coolers the size really does not come into play. Now, just to throw in one more thing to make you scratch your head... :wacko1:
The cooler I offer for the FJ has a dual circuit built in based on the path of least resistance theory, acting as a thermostat and during the testing on the FJ is became clear how well it worked.
The coolers top two plates are a straight pass through whereas the other tubes are a cross flow-spiral tubes. When the oil is cold the path of least resistance is straight through until the oil comes up to temp. Then as the hot oil has a lower viscosity it can flow through the complete cooler. What we found when testing during the cold of winter the engine oil temp actually came to operating temp quicker and maintained in the 180* range at speed.
Check out photo #4;
RPM Oil Cooler Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M/C:FJCoolerKit)
The stock cooler would not allow the engine oil to rise above 150* on the same ride on the same day. I also note that during hot day riding the oil temp on my bike stays much more stable compared to the stock oil cooler on my wife's bike, it has a much higher fluctuation of temp.
Ultimately, back to the question at hand about hooking up that cooler on the chopper. That is a large cooler, 18 rows at 2" wide and the hoses he has a too large as well for the lower volume secondary circuit of the oil pump.
The oil pump was designed to work with a 1" wide 5 row cooler from Yamaha. I have bumped the cooler up to a 12 row, but added the additional internal restriction of the cross flow-spiral tubes and the pressure of the circuit is the same.
And finally on the subject, I am sticking with the fact he should be running synthetic oil due to the turbo. The biggest issue will be the burning of petroleum based oil at the turbo lubrication point and degradation of the bearings within, especially at shut down.
Randy - RPM
Pat, maybe a files section should be made regarding oil coolers so this information can be easily found without searching, especially since most of this information is in an "oil" post.
Randy - RPM