Returning from a recent ride, I realized my shifter mechanism was suddenly rather sloppy. Immediately, I suspected that the shaft had broken off where it threads into the frame, just behind the left footpeg assembly.
Not a problem, thought I, as I have a spare in my mess `o parts. Worst case, I'd have to drill the broken piece out of the frame and possibly tap the hole.
Nursed the bike back to my garage, removed the footpeg assembly, and saw that the shifter shaft is *NOT* broken.
HOWEVER...
It seems that there is nothing for me to screw it into!
The area of the frame in question seems to be a box construction with an empty hole in it.
Is the receiving end supposed to be a captive nut inside this area? If so, I don't know where it went!
I've set the project aside for the moment, but I'm puzzled.
Anyone else here experienced this before? If so, what was your fix?
Steve
This has been reported once or twice. If there is enough room where the weld nut was a Riv-Nut might be good repair.
http://www.boellhoff.com/en/uk/fasteners/special_fasteners/riveting_technology/rivnut.php (http://www.boellhoff.com/en/uk/fasteners/special_fasteners/riveting_technology/rivnut.php)
Mark,
Thanks for the info and the link. Kind of what I suspected, but wanted to run it by the expert(s) before expending energies on possibly wasted efforts.
I've used a similar product on my VW camper, and may still have some of the blind nuts and the associated mandrel for my rivet tool on a shelf somewhere. It'd be nice if the internal thread pitch and diameter matches the shift pivot shaft. I think I have a few different sizes. Time to start looking!
When I first took off the footpeg to see the extent of the problem, I realized that I might have to remove the left side cover panel, which requires removing the swingarm pivot bolt. I may have a spare pivot bolt that I could drive in from the other side and not have to delve too far into dismantling the suspension.
I'll have another look at it tomorrow.
It's always SOMETHING, isn't it??? Grrrr...
Steve
Happy to help... FJowners get the best info I can give....
Steve,
McMaster - Carr has the metric rivit-nuts you will need. Give them a look.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rivet-nuts/=kfumcc (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rivet-nuts/=kfumcc)
UPDATE:
I have confirmed (by using a bit of coat hanger wire) that there is indeed a nut that has broken off inside the frame on my `92 FJ. When the frame behind the shifter pivot bolt is assembled, a nut is resistance welded inside, and then the rest of the structure around this area is closed up, essentially "trapping" the nut, and disallowing any further access to it.
Over 20 years of shifting action led to the fatigue of the (rather sub-par, in my opinion) welds, allowing the nut to come loose from the frame, and come undone from the shifter pivot shaft.
FJMonkey and JCainFJ's links refer to a tool/product combination that will allow me to fix the issue from "outside the box" so-to-speak.
On a lark, I stopped by a nearby Yamaha dealer to see how _THEY_ would address the problem.
The guy at the parts counter pulled up the fiche page on his computer, so I could illustrate the parts in question. He said that he had NEVER heard of a frame failing in this manner. At one point, he suggested that I might have to replace the entire frame!
Next, he wanted to bring in "the OLD guy" from the service department, since this is such an OLD bike. (The OLD guy was literally out-to-lunch, so this option was quashed) When I mentioned that I just wanted to confirm that an insert would be the most logical "fix" in their eyes, I was told that "Well, the mechanic probably WON"T tell you everything he knows, and you're just out of luck."
Finally, they told me that the shop usually won't even perform service on a bike THAT OLD, and that they are not even required to stock parts for bikes over seven (7) years old!
In the end, i left feeling dejected and frustrated, and ultimately, not even buying the oil I originally intended to purchase. (Got it much cheaper, elsewhere, later that day OF COURSE!)
The father of a former girlfriend has a pretty extensive machine shop, and invited me to stop by and see if he could help me out with this dilemma. He works on old bikes and stuff (Indians, Harleys, VW's, MG's, etc.), so he's used to these kinds of issues.
Final question for the group experts: Are the earlier frames solid or box-construction in this area? I don't have my bikes at this location, so I can't run out and confirm for myself right now. I seem to recall the frame on my 1990 FJ as being one solid piece of steel that had a tapped hole for the shift rod pivot.
Thanks for reading. Kooky-Loo!
Steve
Sorry about that problem, it is a pain. I have had exactly the same kind of problems just about every Yamaha dealership I have talked to from Canada to Panama. I ran into one in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan that would perform the jobs I asked them to do and when I got the bill, the prices had doubled due to "problems they had because the bike was so old". In Panama, a shop will not give you a price to do anything at all, they tell you it depends on the job and they stick to it. I do not even waste my time talking to them anymore. When first doing my valves, I contacted one "superbike specialist" who wanted all of the money up front, will all parts bought by me and needed my bike for 2 weeks. Every other person just told me it was a huge job so using the information here and buying the tool and shim kit, I did it myself in eight hours, checking, rechecking, rechecking and rechecking again before I was satisfied. I thought not bad for the first time. Since then, I have found a mechanically knowledgeable motorcycle mechanic down here who is not afraid to work hard and earn his money and is now one of my best drinking buddies too.
I'm pretty mechanically inclined, just don't have a "real" shop.
I have owned a 1970 VW Camper and a 1975 MG Midget for a number of years, and have been through both from top to bottom, on a budget and out of necessity. Most recently, I worked for a period of time at a shop that specialized in repairing old British cars (Triumph, MG, Jaguar predominately). The lead mechanic, Chuck, at this shop is an old hippie, so we got along GREAT. If it weren't for the MONEY ($$$) side of it, I'd still be happily working there! Chuck used to tell me that so many of the jobs involved "just figuring it out" and then implementing a fix.
This is the part that really frustrates me when dealing with establishments as an "outside" customer. You're treated in an EXTREMELY condescending manner, and they seem to want _ALL_ of your money, for the privilege!
I mean, I realize that shops have expenses and overhead and the like, but do they have to recoup it from EVERY customer EACH TIME???
Gaahhhh....
/rant off
Steve
Where in the parts fiche is the bolt or location of the nut?
The nut in question is welded INSIDE the frame structure, so the part number is actually THE FRAME itself.
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on December 07, 2012, 09:16:48 AM
had NEVER heard of a frame failing in this manner...
Hi Steve,
My '92 had this issue, so I bet it's not uncommon. PO had used a washer and nut to thread the pivot bolt into. This worked, but was sloppy and too kluge for me.
I used a steel nutsert which is a sleeve with a shoulder on one end and a nut inside the other end. Used frequently to put a threaded fastener into one surface of a box section frame. You drill out the hole to the correct size, slip the nutsert in using the tool that will compress it and make it tight in the hole, then tighten that tool to squeeze the sleeve, causing the part between the shoulder and nut to behave like a rivet... deforming to create another "shoulder" inside the frame on the nut side of the sleeve.
A welding shop will likely have the ability to do this for you, or you can buy the supplies and do it yourself. :good:
Works like a charm... in fact, when I had the bike apart fixing and straightening the frame the recommendation of Frameman was to leave it. I had asked that we remove in an weld in another backing nut, but he thought that would be more prone to failure and thought the nutsert was the better solution.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on December 07, 2012, 08:55:52 PM
A welding shop will likely have the ability to do this for you, or you can buy the supplies and do it yourself.
Yeah, I know what it is I need, and why... Now I just have to find a shop that has the tool and the inserts.
So far I've been to one Yamaha dealer, two independent motorcycle shops, and a custom auto shop with no luck.
The local Fastenal dealer can order everything I need, but I have to buy the box of 20 or 25 inserts (~$25 to $30) when I only need a single one. (plus additional cost for the tool to insert it.)
There's still a couple of shops I haven't tried yet before purchasing everything myself.
Annoyed, just wanna ride...
Steve
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on December 08, 2012, 06:10:06 AM
Quote from: Flynt on December 07, 2012, 08:55:52 PM
A welding shop will likely have the ability to do this for you, or you can buy the supplies and do it yourself.
Yeah, I know what it is I need, and why... Now I just have to find a shop that has the tool and the inserts.
So far I've been to one Yamaha dealer, two independent motorcycle shops, and a custom auto shop with no luck.
The local Fastenal dealer can order everything I need, but I have to buy the box of 20 or 25 inserts (~$25 to $30) when I only need a single one. (plus additional cost for the tool to insert it.)
There's still a couple of shops I haven't tried yet before purchasing everything myself.
Annoyed, just wanna ride...
Steve
Buying the gear still seems a lot less than you would be paying a shop to do it.
It's not really a bike shop job. I'd be trying a body shop.
Noel
What is the thread size and wall thickness? I might have some RivNuts at work I can send. The tool to insert it can be homemade with common hardware. I put two in my swing arm to make a mount point for my GSXR under-slung caliper.
Steve,
I just spent about a half an hour pooring over the diagrams of that area. can you believe that the broken bolt is not listed? It is a special bolt that fits in there as I have broken one myself.
I just got hardware from Ace and made up a replacement with washers and such. Pain in the butt but it worked.
CraigO
Disregard my last posts... Seems I was barking up the wrong tree after rereading your post.
:blush:
CraigO
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 08, 2012, 08:27:27 AM
What is the thread size and wall thickness? I might have some RivNuts at work I can send. The tool to insert it can be homemade with common hardware.
It's an M8 x 1.25, and I think the wall thickness is maybe 2 to 3 mm.
I sent you a PM.
Thanks, Monkey!
I have the same issue on my 92. The hole goes right through the frame but the bolt is not long enough. My plan is to lenghten the bolt by welding on another length of the same size bolt and then using a self locking nut.
Jeff
Thank you Santa-Monkey!
Many thanks to Mark, our local FJ-Monkey. He was kind enough to supply me with the EXACT part (Riv-Nut) I needed to fix the issue.
I had to widen the hole in the frame a bit with a drill bit, insert the Riv-Nut, and with a nut, bolt and washer held the bolt with a ratchet and turned the nut with a wrench. The Riv-Nut locked itself into place, and I reassembled the footpeg/shifter assembly.
Now on to fixing other misc. stuff! (front brake light switch, rear tail light bulb)
Jeff (jscgdunn), you may want to be careful with your plan, as the chain passes very close to the frame in that area. Might not be enough room for a nut. I recommend the Riv-Nut solution. Let me know if you need a couple. I have extras now.
Cheers!
Steve
Happy to hear that the Riv-Nut worked, I have 20 more to help any others with the same problem. I love happy endings. Happy New Year all.
Thank you Markus, you rock!
So my idea of welding did not work out as we were concerned that we might damage the part. The quest for a metric rivnut in Calgary, a city of 1 million people in a country that "went metric" over thirty years ago was futile. I did find a 5/16 riv nut.
Off to home depot and I found this 5/16 barbed nut (I have flattened the barbs). With the thinner wall I was able to fit it into the hole with out boring the hole out to 1/2 inch for the riv nut. I re-tapped it it to 8MMX1.25 and installed with locktite. A picture is posted in the gallery.