Any one near Chino Ca? I might need a place to park my stalled 86 til I can pick it up later today.
Paul Lawson lives off of Mountain Ave, want me to give him a call?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 10:44:16 AM
Paul Lawson lives off of Mountain Ave, want me to give him a call?
Pat, thanks, looks like AAA will take me home, like paying for insurance and hoping you never need it.
I am finally moving again, Unfortunatly on a flat bed. Twice in two rides it would not start, and this time after it acted like the fuel cut out on the freeway. Opening the cap made no difference. On the last ride it was just a starting problem, once started it ran like stink with zero issues. Maybe time for some upgrades, 4 brush starter, Uni pods, hotter ignition, get Randy to clean and rejet the carbs, SST fastener kit. Lithium battery, did I miss anything?
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 22, 2012, 01:05:22 PM
...did I miss anything?
You could just have AAA drop it off here...
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 22, 2012, 01:08:54 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 22, 2012, 01:05:22 PM
...did I miss anything?
You could just have AAA drop it off here...
Randy - RPM
Too late, already home, but I like your thinking..... If I get this sorted I will up there on the 6th.
Put the key in, give it some choke, and she fired right up..... How in the hell am I gonna find the cause if it starts working again????
Let's see, won't start hot, engine turns over, throttle open just a slight crack (normally works like a charm) nothing but a hot starter motor and dead battery. Wait 30+ minutes (ride home on a flatbed), some choke, still dead battery and the engine fires up by the third rotation. Flooded? The carbs had just run out of fuel, or at least the bike acted that way. I guess I need start with the basics and make sure the simple/easy to check stuff is kosher..... Then work my up if the issue continues. Oh, yea, I forgot... Rip the F%#G flappers out this time instead of just cleaning them.
Mark, that happened to me on my '84. Freeway riding, started stumbling and ran out of gas with a 3/4 tank
So I lifted the tank:
1st to check: My fuel line was routed correctly so I know that's not the issue....A pinched fuel line is common.
Then it must be petcock related.
2nd to check: the petcock vacuum line...nice and tight, no leaks....What to do?
I just turned the petcock lever to prime and she started right up, ran fine all the way home.
The diaphragm in the petcock assembly was (intermittently) not holding a vacuum, not surprising for a 25 year old piece of rubber located in the hottest area of the bike.
A new petcock later and all is well.... Cheers laddie, glad you are home and safe.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 02:10:57 PM
So I lifted the tank:
1st to check: My fuel line was routed correctly so I know that's not the issue....A pinched fuel line is common.
Then it must be petcock related.
No fuel related issues on my last two rides and I have not had the tank off. Hard to think I have a kinked/pinched line.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 02:10:57 PM
2nd to check: the petcock vacuum line...nice and tight, no leaks....What to do?
I just turned the petcock lever to prime and she started right up, ran fine all the way home.
I have not checked the vacuum function in a few years, guess I will pull the tank, suck on my petcock and see what happens. :bomb:
Set it to prime and see what happens.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 04:31:47 PM
Set it to prime and see what happens.
He has no prime, he has an 86...
Maybe try reserve for the next ride.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 22, 2012, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 04:31:47 PM
Set it to prime and see what happens.
He has no prime, he has an 86...
Maybe try reserve for the next ride.
Randy - RPM
Tried reserve on the side of the road with traffic zipping by. Tested the vacuum on the petcock, it works with little vacuum, way less than sucking a milkshake up a large McD's straw.... I am gonna write that one off. Cleaned the air filter even though I can see a weak flash light shine through it. Another short ride tomorrow closer to home to get a better feel of what is failing and how to fix it. Gotta love these old bikes, too much newer and you need a PHD and a super computer to tell you what the "Check whatever" light means....
Ok, I thought it was a '85....all those ambulances look the same....woooo woooo woooo.
Maybe a "superior " 84/85 petcock is in order?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
Ok, I thought it was a '85....all those ambulances look the same....woooo woooo woooo.
Maybe a "superior " 84/85 petcock is in order?
Will do as soon as this dinosaur gives up the ghost. Right now it seems to work just fine.
Did it crank and cough, crank and not cough, or not crank?
Quote from: andyb on September 22, 2012, 07:14:46 PM
Did it crank and cough, crank and not cough, or not crank?
Crank and not cough....
Mark, did you try to push start it? If you did and it wouldn't start, that eliminates the starter as the problem. Sounds similar to the problem I had with my '85 which turned out to be a starter motor problem. Only happened when the motor was hot. Hope you get it sorted. Pete.
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 22, 2012, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: andyb on September 22, 2012, 07:14:46 PM
Did it crank and cough, crank and not cough, or not crank?
Crank and not cough....
Open the float bowl drains and see how much (or little) gas you have in them.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2012, 11:06:30 PM
Open the float bowl drains and see how much (or little) gas you have in them.
They had enough to allow the engine to start and run after I got home. I am gonna take a short ride today, not too far from home. Some stop and go, freeway speeds, get it up to running temp and try starting while hot again. I need to duplicate the problem, otherwise I won't know what the cause is or if I fixed it. The fuel starvation might be fixed, the flappers are gone from the cap, no more singing after a ride for my FJ....
I am still out for my test run after checking the vacuum function on the petcock, new vacuum line, washed an re-oiled the intake filter and ripped out the flapper valve. I got on the freeway like yesterday only chose a route closer to home and friends if things go wrong again. I got a good 16 miles of sustained 70/75 mph before traffic reduced the speed. Pull into Cycle Gear and shop, shoot the shit and drool over some Sidci gloves marked way down. Had a little trouble starting, on whim I chose to not crack the throttle open, it coughed, one more time with no throttle and it fired right up and stalled. Once more with throttle to keep the RPMs up and I am off. Surface streets for a few miles and I notice the idle seems rough at stop lights, I keep the RPM around 2K and it still seems rough. Once in motion the engine feels normal. Another mile or so and pulling into my next stop the engine is bogging down, no power, like its fuel starved. In the parking lot it seemed ready to stall. Once parked, hand off the throttle it stalls. Time for a beer and wings. At least my FJ got me to the beer stop, and I know that she still loves me and is really having issues, not being tempramental. I will see if she fires up after a rest and cool down period. I will post again when and if I get home.
It might be the battery/charging system. If the battery is shorting internally it might be causing the ignition do some weird stuff.
It the battery dies and the alternator does not have enough output to keep the system operating, then it is going to start dropping spark quality.
So thing else you might look at.
When it started dropping cylinder this time did you check the float bowl volume?
Randy -RPM
FJmonkey, 7 or 8 years ago, my 86 did exactly what you are describing numerous times. I checked everything, tank flapper, fuel line routing, tried using reserve, replaced the reserve relay, ect. It would sit for an hour or so then start right up and I could ride for the rest of the day with no problem. One day it happened about 200 miles from home, out in the middle of nowhere. On the side of the road I pulled the tank, disassembled the petcock and removed the o-ring that shuts the fuel off when the engine is off. After reassembling everything it fired right up and I rode the rest of the summer with no problems. I ended up replacing the petcock assembly that winter. I never figured out what was wrong with the old petcock but it has never acted up since. Might be something to check on yours.
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 23, 2012, 07:28:28 PM
It might be the battery/charging system. If the battery is shorting internally it might be causing the ignition do some weird stuff.
When it started dropping cylinder this time did you check the float bowl volume?
Randy -RPM
No float bowl check, but Pat may have this thing sussed. I did two things when it started gong to hell at the stop light. Popped open the fill cap (flappers already removed) and switched over to Reserve. It ran like stink all the way home. Even after I switched back off of reserve. Still not solid on the cause but fuel supply is my top suspect now....
Glad to hear you got home ok, with out a little help from your friend with the truck. Do you have that old style fuel petcock? If so I think that is your problem and always take Randy's advise, check the voltages. Hope this helps and keep us posted. FJmonkey soon to ride again. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Kurt
hope you get her sorted soon mate, , I'd give you a hand but too far to swim :scratch_one-s_head:
Thank you all for the advise and suggestions. I have a voltage meeter with LED display I can connect directly to the battery and monitor the voltages while cranking at start up and while running. Some cable ties and two sided foam tape and I will check again this weekend.
Good to hear that you made it home safe and sound. That is a good FJ, when it makes it to the beer and wing place before it quits. I just remembered no fuel pump until 89. Good news, no truck ride. Let us know when you get this figured out.
Kurt
FJmonkey did you figure out the problem.
Kurt
Quote from: yamaha fj rider on September 27, 2012, 02:03:02 PM
FJmonkey did you figure out the problem.
Kurt
Last time out for a ride when I was returning home it stalled at a light, would not restart. I did two things, opened the gas cap (flappers already removed), and switched to reserve. It fired right up and ran like stink all the way home. I even switched off the reserve with no problems. One more ride or two this weekend should help eliminate what is not causing the problem.
Sounds good. Get it ready for NAPA rally?
Kurt
Quote from: yamaha fj rider on September 27, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
Sounds good. Get it ready for NAPA rally?
Kurt
That is the plan.
Wish I could join you To much work and can't ride with a broken wrist.
Kurt
Here is an update. I took a ride yesterday, same route as before with freeway, stop and go and a cool down period while I had lunch. Zero issues. I decided to make the ride longer, I need the problem to happen again to learn what the hell is causing it. More stop and go, this is when I had the issue last ride, not this time. Up Bouquet canyon and to the reservoir, I kept going. Palmdale in my mirrors, Angels Forest highway, Pat would love this road, nothing but high speed sweepers through the hills. Angels Crest to stop at Newcomb's ranch for a drink and bio-break. 120 miles and zero issues, I hate problems like this.... Met a guy that was a short time member that had a 92, he liked the bike but he sold it. Found out about us after he sold it. Signed up and sold off his extra parts. But I digress, back to the update.
Headed back home, about 4 miles from Newcomb's I felt the subtle loss of power. It was happening, I quickly switched to Reserve and checked voltage. Voltage was reading 14.3. I found that I could get the engine to keep power by shifting down and keep the RPMs up. Makes cornering really choppy like being in the wrong gear on a two stroke. This went on for another 2 miles like this till the condition degraded rather suddenly and stalled like it did near Chino. I know I had plenty of fuel, I filled up that morning and only went 120 miles or so another 60/70 before the fuel light comes on. Interestingly though, this is about the same amount of fuel when it stalled in Chino... Another voltage check and with the RPMs dropping so was the voltage, with the engine stopped voltage was 12.5/6. I opened the cap, ran the starter a few short bursts (voltage dropped to 9.5 while cranking but the starter had good cranking speed) and no cough. I add choke and it fires right up. I re-close the cap, switch back off Reserve, take the choke off and run the 15 miles back home with zero issues.
I am still puzzled. After the last two issues I got it started and it ran for miles with no issues. It seems fuel supply related, twice now I had about the same amount of fuel in the tank (60 miles or a little over a Gal + reserve). Switching to Reserve has no noticeable effect. Opening the cap (flappers already missing) and giving it some choke seems to get the engine fired back up. With the flappers gone there should be zero vacuum in the tank. I wish I had a spare key to allow me to open and close the cap while riding. I guess I really need to see if the bowels are empty when she cuts out. Then I can focus on or eliminate it as a fuel issue. I will take a look and see if I can install a temporary sight tube on one of the outside carb bowels. I think I saw this on a post to determine float height. It will need to be secure from vibration and the air rushing past it. I am open to your thoughts and opinions, and I appreciate the help you have already provided. Stay thirsty for Kookaloo my friends....
Mark... Isn't this sounding like the fuel line routing problem? When your tank gets lower and you have less head pressure is when it appears to happen. Maybe line routing or fuel filter should be gone over carefully... :dash2:
Don't know how you guys live without a fuel pump anyway, maybe just fit one to eliminate a host of needless issues? (popcorn)
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on September 30, 2012, 10:23:11 AM
Mark... Isn't this sounding like the fuel line routing problem? When your tank gets lower and you have less head pressure is when it appears to happen. Maybe line routing or fuel filter should be gone over carefully... :dash2:
Don't know how you guys live without a fuel pump anyway, maybe just fit one to eliminate a host of needless issues? (popcorn)
Frank
I have reviewed the line routing a few times and it seems proper. But if the head pressure is the issue then it should be more consistent or grow worse as the fuel level drops. My ride the day after Chino was on the same tank without filling up. And it ran well for miles at freeway speed. After the stall (at slow speed, less demand for fuel) it ran well all the way home at freeway speed, I was just getting the soft red glow of the fuel light at 185 miles on the trip meeter when I got home. So it is hard to say, a pinched line is simply smaller and will only let so much fuel through at a given pressure. As the pressure drops, the flow is also reduced. I stalled at low speed then ran at sustained freeway speeds for the 15+ miles home. The symptoms don't add up.
Similar to a clogged filter, which I don't have. I had the petcock off last year when I wired it up as a precaution. While it was off I cleaned out the filter screen. It was not too dirty but it was out of the tank already.
Can the fuel line have intermittent problems? Same goes for the petcock. One member 56 CHEVY said he had similar issues and changed out the petcock. Never had the issue since.
Do you have an OEM or aftermarket fuel filter? Definitely fuel related. Not a voltage problem. The FJ can run off of the battery alone (with no incoming power) down to 10.2 volts. Sounds exactly what I experienced once with 2 different types of aftermarket fuel filters. I switched back to the OEM filter and the problem was solved.
Quote from: Marsh White on September 30, 2012, 10:53:37 AM
Do you have an OEM or aftermarket fuel filter? Definitely fuel related. Not a voltage problem. The FJ can run off of the battery alone (with no incoming power) down to 10.2 volts. Sounds exactly what I experienced once with 2 different types of aftermarket fuel filters. I switched back to the OEM filter and the problem was solved.
Now I have to pull the tank again, I did not think I had a fuel filter. If I do then I am clearly not changing it when I need to. I don't see a fuel filter in the parts fiche for an 86'. But that does not mean one was not added.
+1 on fuel petcock, don't you have that vacuum operated one. How old is it? Fuel level gets low and less pressure (weight of fuel) pushing fuel through the petcock and the bike quits running. Hope this helps. If the tank could pressurize bike would stay running longer. JMHO. Hope this helps. :unknown: (popcorn)
Kurt
Quote from: yamaha fj rider on September 30, 2012, 11:25:40 AM
+1 on fuel petcock, don't you have that vacuum operated one. How old is it? Fuel level gets low and less pressure (weight of fuel) pushing fuel through the petcock and the bike quits running. Hope this helps. If the tank could pressurize bike would stay running longer. JMHO. Hope this helps. :unknown: (popcorn)
Kurt
I am leaning towards the petcock as the source of intermittent failure. A pinched fuel line or clogged filter are constant conditions. Filters don't unclog them selves then clog up again. They get enough crap in them and like a pinched line restrict flow. Randy is bringing a spare for me to the Napa rally. Easy to change out and I will know that part is not 26 years old.
Hope you get this sorted out and have a great rally. Maybe next early spring after my wrist heals you can show me some of the great roads in SoCal.
Kurt
Get a 84/85 petcock, that way you have a prime function to use...
Also check that your 2 bowl vent hoses are open and unobstructed
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 30, 2012, 12:09:26 PM
Get a 84/85 petcock, that way you have a prime function to use...
Also check that your 2 bowl vent hoses are open and unobstructed
It looks like it has the vacuum feature to stop the flow with the engine off. Does it still have the electronic reserve function? It cost less than the 86/87 unit. Good advise, thanks. I will have the tank off today to check a few things, I will include these vent hoses.
It does not have an electric reserve function.
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 30, 2012, 12:34:51 PM
It does not have an electric reserve function.
Thanks, losing this feature seems like an upgrade.
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 10:42:45 AM
Can the fuel line have intermittent problems?
What if the line expands and is pinching as it heats up... while moving at freeway speed and getting some additional cooling, everything's fine. You could be right at the point where a little heat makes the line pinch shut when you slow down and the engine heat is radiating out.
Thinking out loud... just get a pump and be done with this voodoo.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on September 30, 2012, 06:28:01 PM
What if the line expands and is pinching as it heats up... while moving at freeway speed and getting some additional cooling, everything's fine. You could be right at the point where a little heat makes the line pinch shut when you slow down and the engine heat is radiating out.
Thinking out loud... just get a pump and be done with this voodoo.
Frank
I doubt the line's rate of expansion will vary that much from cold to hot, but you are thinking about possibilities. To switch to a pump will take some changes, the carbs need some different bits to deal with the added pressure. I may decide to fit the 86' with a pump just to say I did. Just not in the next few days....
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 07:41:19 PM
I doubt the line's rate of expansion will vary that much from cold to hot...
you'd be amazed... You've seen where 110 degrees in Kansas produces stunt ramps in the freeway? Rails spring and bridges buckle all due to the cumulative stress of micron per cm rates of thermal expansion in solids. Solids define the term incompressible, so forces build quickly and pinching off your gas would be a non issue.
I bet if you look it up fuel line (what are you using) will be hundredths per degree, so you'd get 1/8-1/4" or more expansion per foot when hot. If your position cold is marginal, fix it and try again.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on September 30, 2012, 07:55:36 PM
you'd be amazed... You've seen where 110 degrees in Kansas produces stunt ramps in the freeway? Rails spring and bridges buckle all due to the cumulative stress of micron per cm rates of thermal expansion in solids. Solids define the term incompressible, so forces build quickly and pinching off your gas would be a non issue.
I bet if you look it up fuel line (what are you using) will be hundredths per degree, so you'd get 1/8-1/4" or more expansion per foot when hot. If your position cold is marginal, fix it and try again.
Frank
Ok I will bite, why now? This opens a big Ol can O' worms, I have not altered my fuel line routing in years... Maybe the fact that it is original as far as I know... Us old fucks change in ways we really don't want to know.....
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 08:02:29 PM
Ok I will bite, why now?
Maybe the lines are naturally swelling over time due to fuel exposure and they've reached the point of needing replacement. How old are they?
Frank
oops... caught in do loop.
Quote from: Flynt on September 30, 2012, 08:10:58 PM
Nevermind...
Frank
Frank, why are you counting? Does Marsh give prizes???
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 08:13:17 PM
Frank, why are you counting? Does Marsh give prizes???
Loco Monkey??? :wacko2:
Quote from: Flynt on September 30, 2012, 08:16:18 PM
how old are your fuel lines anyway?
As posted, OEM I think
"Maybe the fact that it is original as far as I know... Us old fucks change in ways we really don't want to know....."
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 08:19:57 PM
As posted, OEM I think
these are fuel lines... install new now and keep them in good shape. you may need to change every few years when they get hard and crack.
this may not be your problem, but you should do it ASAP anyway.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on September 30, 2012, 08:25:03 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 08:19:57 PM
As posted, OEM I think
these are fuel lines... install new now and keep them in good shape. you may need to change every few years when they get hard and crack.
this may not be your problem, but you should do it ASAP anyway.
Frank
Good idea, Email already sent to Randy for a new one. Thanks...
A partially pinched fuel line could be the explanation as why you lose fuel pressure when the head pressure is lower ( low fuel level in the tank)
As long as the single fuel line leaving the petcock runs "under" the 2 branch lines, you're good there.
It is counter intuitive unless you can see how low the petcock outlet is positioned when the fuel tank is bolted down. If that single fuel line is run "over" the two branch lines you 'will' have problems, guaranteed.
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 11:38:59 AM
I am leaning towards the petcock as the source of intermittent failure. A pinched fuel line or clogged filter are constant conditions. Filters don't unclog them selves then clog up again.
+ 1 on your petcock being the problem. FYI: I was not referring to your fuel filter being clogged. The problem I had was air getting trapped in the filter and creating a vacuum and not letting enough fuel flow. It was very annoying and intermittent - AND this was on my 89 FJ WITH a fuel pump trying to suck the fuel out of the filter.
Thanks to Randy at RPM I will have a new 84/85 petcock (with prime and no electronic reserve) today or tomorrow. I will get it installed, make sure the lines are routed properly, carb vent lines are open and not clogged or pinched and Bob's my uncle. Sounds wrong when I put it in the first person.... Now my FJ will be an 84'/86'/88'/92' model.
The jury is nearly out on this one. But I have made an important discovery and feel that the problem is solved.
First, thank you all that offered solutions or opinions to help solve my problem. To those of you that offered cheap shots at my expense while I was down and out and in dire straights, thank you as well for cheering me up. For those of you that did not take cheap shots then Bugger off and thank you anyway.
Randy at RPM delivered my new petcock, not in person but quickly and in time. Once off the tank I checked the old one by sucking on it. Not having ever sucked on one I did not know what was good or bad. I sucked on the new one and found that there was a difference. While sucking on the old one I needed to keep sucking, it was (as I now know) leaking. The new one had distinct click as the diaphragm opened the valve that allows fuel through. It did not need a constant supply of suction to resupply the loss.
This is why my problem was almost intermittent and tough to diagnose. So to put it bluntly, suck on your petcock, does it need constant sucking? If yes then replace it or repair it.
Thank you all again for.....something..er...or another...Kookalooo
Monkey boy, you're such a petcock sucker! :bad:
Party on! :yahoo:
JIT... :yahoo:
see you tomorrow. :drinks:
Frank
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 10:16:33 AM
Headed back home, about 4 miles from Newcomb's I felt the subtle loss of power. It was happening, I quickly switched to Reserve and checked voltage. Voltage was reading 14.3. I found that I could get the engine to keep power by shifting down and keep the RPMs up. Makes cornering really choppy like being in the wrong gear on a two stroke. This went on for another 2 miles like this till the condition degraded rather suddenly and stalled like it did near Chino.
Mark,
This is a vey good observation on your part and a direct indication of a float bowl running out of fuel.
When you're cruising (or not being aggressive on the throttle) you're mainly pulling fuel from the idle jets. Since the idle jets are physically higher in the float bowl than the main jet, as the fuel level drops, they will stop flowing fuel first. You'll feel the slight drop in response like you described.
If you crank up the throttle, you pull more fuel from the main which is still able to deliver fuel. If the level continues to drop and you uncover the main jet, you will be pulling over immediately as the motor is now dead.
I had the exact same thing happen when a wet tank bag prevented my '85's fuel cap from venting. It is definitely a helpless feeling.
DavidR.
Do I get a prize?
For those of you that have a MityVac or other type of hand vacuum pump, place the petcock under a -light- vacuum, note the gauge reading, and leave it on for a couple of hours and see if the gauge holds.
A bit of silicone grease on the petcock vacuum nipple, will keep the vacuum from leaking down at that hose connection.
Cheers Mark!
About 150 miles on the new petcock here in Napa and zero issues. Great roads up here, good place to get one's Kookaloo on.
Quote from: FJmonkey on October 06, 2012, 03:32:43 PM
About 150 miles on the new petcock here in Napa and zero issues. Great roads up here, good place to get one's Kookaloo on.
Truly is nice that you got your happy ending from your petcock sucking episode.
Cheers!
Leon
was love at first suck :lol:
Pretty sure I have the same problem. Has happened randomly three times in the last 3,000 km.
Weirdly, each time somewhere between 190 and 200 kilos on the trip meter.
Twice on a long trip, and once when coming home on a short trip.
After each incident it has run flawlessly and strong.
When I felt it surging I slipped it back 2 gears and it come to life again, for not very long... exactly how SlowOldGuy described.
Playing with the electric reserve and pulling the choke out does nothing.
Dammit, more money... just what I needed.
Anyways, how the hell did we ever figure out all this stuff before the net..?