Good day folk,
1. I haven't posted in some time now, but I have been doing allot of reading of late.
2. I just received the materials mentioned above, as well, as the foam filter oil from Randy. Thanks Randy.
3. I will be doing the install of these parts next weekend.
4. 1986 FJ 1200 - Current exhaust and intake configuration as fol:
a. Stainless Steal (S/S) one piece Super trapp pipe on which I can place up to 21 disks;and
b. There is a K & N air filter in the air box.
5. Current situation - I do not know what the PO had done to the carburetors in the way of modifications to make this work, but it seems to work well. I bought the filters so that I can put in the replacement "manual Fuel petcock" and, I think, it will make it easier for maintenance in the future. I have the "Manual Fuel petcock" because I do not trust the vacuum diaphragm units and I like positive control of the fuel valve. It "feels like" it should be part of the natural start up procedure for a bike. (just my thoughts)
6. Questions as fol:
a. With the UNI POD's installed do you think I will need to do much in the way of playing with the jetting? Keeping in mind that the SuperTrapp is tunable.
b. Does anyone out there have a S/S SuperTrapp pipe and what number of disks do you use on your system. This would be especially interesting if you are using the UNI POD's as well.
Thanks for your time.
Dan
Question: How are you planning on to turning off your manual petcock?
Hi,
I read on another post, sometime ago" that another member had done this. He took out the screen on the top left hand side of the side cover which allowed him access to the valve.
Dan
Yup, the jetting likely will need some adjustment. You can get by not touching it, but it really defeats the purpose of modifying things only to make things run worse rather than getting more power.
Once you get into the carbs and see what's there, there's a number of posts that will give you comparable examples to use as starting points. Proper answer is to spend a mint on dyno time, but if you're ok with tinkering, you can dial it in pretty well yourself.
Thanks for the feed back Andy. I kinda knew the answer... I just wanted to hear something else. I guess I will be getting familure with the carbs now.
Dan
Dan.....once you know what's in your carbs, here are my carb contents with UNI dual pods and 4-1 system.
108 main jets
45 pilot jets
3rd clip position
3.5 turns out on air screws.
Factory Pro needles and emulsion tubes.
for my FJ this gives me good air/fuel mixture to 1/2 throttle and a whisker rich above that.
HTH
Harvy
Harvy,
Are those DJ jets as Mikuni does not offer 108.
Randy -,RPM
Randy....yes they are....apologies.
Harvy, Randy,
Thanks for your input.
Randy,
I plan on doing this through you and your kit.
All,
I will be getting on the installs this coming weekend. I will let you know what the results are next Monday.
Dan
Well folks,
I've failed. Mother nature decided to dump 6 inches of snow in Redbridge Ontario this weekend. I don't have a garage yet and with the bike under a tarp I could not get to work on my beast. My apologies. On the up side, I will be retiring soon (30 Apr 12) and I will have all summer to work on her and converse with you. I do have a little to report. I have oiled the UNI filters and checked how the new "manual" tank valve will fit. It seems that I will have to do some modification of the petcock hole, the screen of the petcock does not fit in the hole so I will have to do some drilling. FYI I will be drilling a second tank that I have and it has not had fuel in it for sometime now. There are no detectable (read by nose) fumes. That Air box looks like its going to be a beast to take out.
This report is "just so ya know"
Thanks fellas, (by the way, Are there any girls on this site?) A female rider may inspire my wife.
Quote from: Signaller on April 22, 2012, 06:20:19 PM
That Air box looks like its going to be a beast to take out.
No worries Dan, it's only 107*f here in the desert at the moment. Waaay to hot for April.
The air box is easy-peesey.....
1) Loosen the 4 carb clamps on the airbox.
2) Remove the airbox filter side cover.
3) Loosen the lower squeeze clamp on the crankcase breather hose.
4) Remove the (3) 10mm bolts holding the airbox to the subframe.
5) Remove the 2 upper subframe bolts and slightly loosen (don't remove) the 2 lower sub frame bolts
6) Now push your subframe down. This will give you clearance to pull the airbox off the carbs and rotate the box to slide out of the subframe rails. The breather hose will come off with the airbox.
Cheers laddie! Pat
Pat,
You are one handy fellow. Thanks for your info. The job now feels as though it will be "easy pessey" thank you very much. I will be finishing my Administrative and equipment clearances from DND this week. I look forward to stepping into the foray with those instructions next weekend when I get home. (Currently in Toronto Ontario)
Thanks
Dan
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 22, 2012, 07:13:26 PM
Quote from: Signaller on April 22, 2012, 06:20:19 PM
That Air box looks like its going to be a beast to take out.
No worries Dan, it's only 107*f here in the desert at the moment. Waaay to hot for April.
The air box is easy-peesey.....
1) Loosen the 4 carb clamps on the airbox.
2) Remove the airbox filter side cover.
3) Loosen the lower squeeze clamp on the crankcase breather hose.
4) Remove the (3) 10mm bolts holding the airbox to the subframe.
5) Remove the 2 upper subframe bolts and slightly loosen (don't remove) the 2 lower sub frame bolts
6) Now push your subframe down. This will give you clearance to pull the airbox off the carbs and rotate the box to slide out of the subframe rails. The breather hose will come off with the airbox.
Cheers laddie! Pat
Exactly what Pat says except I don't find the need to loosen the lower bolts.
However, if you bike is a late model (rubber mounted motor) you will need to remove the muffler mounting bolts as well (easy) and makes removing / replacing the airbox a piece of cake.
Noel
Noel,
Thank you, If I was in Redbridge right now I would rush out and check what you are saying. The question is "Will I have those same "muffler mounting bolts" if I have an after-market header (S/S SuperTrapp)
Dan
Yes, someone will chime in with more detail. but I think on the earlier bikes the exhaust mounted from the footrest bracket and the later ones from the rear subframe.
I mentioned this because if you do as Pat says, and have the later bike, the subframe will still be held up some by the exhaust.
Trying to remove and refit the airbox without lowering the subframe is enough to make you want to throw the whole bike over the fence. Once you have de-mystified this procedure, it literally takes a couple of minutes.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on April 22, 2012, 07:32:03 PM
Exactly what Pat says except I don't find the need to loosen the lower bolts.
However, if you bike is a late model (rubber mounted motor) you will need to remove the muffler mounting bolts as well (easy) and makes removing / replacing the airbox a piece of cake.
Noel
Yeppers, a good point Noel ....
Dan has a '86 with the exhaust supported by the aluminum side brackets, so he should be ok moving the subframe without messing with the muffler mounts. As Noel points out, the later year FJ's have a different subframe..
Huh, so those kits that replace the exhaust mounts with a pivot that you guys have been mocking all these years really is a good idea!
And you laughed at the idea of muffler bearings.
think he will be storing the airbox,and using pod filters,,,, much easier to work around :good2: ....And you laughed at the idea of muffler bearings. quote,,,,, i must know more (popcorn) :rofl2:
Update:
So I have installed the UNI Pods, manual petcock and case filter.
Pat,
Taking that air box out was very simple, thanks for the input.
Hary,
I have not taken the carbs apart yet to check sizes of jets.
I have taken the bike out for a couple of rides and there does not seem to be any problems yet. The bike feels strong throughout the rev range. I'm still apprehensive about taking apart the carbs to look at things as it may/will cut into my ride time.
Problems:
Pay attention when putting the clamps back on the intake manifolds, ensure that the tightening screws are out of the way of the "throttle" plate as it rotates up. I had tightened the clamp in the wrong position and it stopped my throttle from turning. I was anxious to get things going so I twisted harder. Then the throttle was loose.... and I mean loose... like broken loose... So... I took everything apart and fixed the clamps properly out of the way. I then looked at the throttle cables. There is a white "slider" box which connects the ends of the cables from the carbs to the throttle. I used epoxy cold weld to rebuild the "slider" to hold the ends of the cables together.
Lessons Learned:
1. Put things back together properly. Don't be in a hurry.
2. If something is obviously stuck don't force it.
Question:
Do you think that I will have problems with the motor if I do not have a closer look at the carb jetting?
Thanks everybody. Dan
Dan, just as a precaution, check your spark plugs - make sure you are not running TOO lean. I have one of those cable boxes floating around in the shed somewhere if yours decides to break again....... let me know if you need it.
Harvy
Harvy,
Thanks for the advice to check the plugs. They are white as snow... guess I will be learning about the carbs... sigh...
I will review the files for procedures.
Thanks everybody.
Dan
Good day folks,
(Following is an update)
1. I sucked up some courage and dove into the carbs. I fold the following:
- 120 main jets(no other markings)
- 40 pilot jets (has a stamp of a box with a little box inside)
- 3rd clip position (5 positions avail and a thin washer on top of the clip) - has the box symbol and 5FZ74
- turns out on air screws (not sure. Have not played with it yet)
- Main Jet is a 120 (no other markings)
2. There was allot of "brown stuff" in the float bowls. I cleaned everything up with carb cleaner including the choke circuit.
3. I removed the Emulsion tubes and cleaned them up as well as the port it resides in.
4. As a side note to this my SuperTrapp has 8 disks on it. I have upto 22 available to adjust.
5. So what is the next suggested move in parts. How big should I go with new parts from Randy?
6. Pat, Harvy, and Randy thanks for getting me this far.
Dan (the retired Signaller)
Good day folks,
I've delved a little deeper into the carbs and also have found the fol:
a. 155 air bleed jets
b. the float jets are 2.3 (need new screens for them)
Per my previous post, has anyone got any thoughts as to what parts (jets sizes) I should order from Randy?
A Course of action (COA) would be handy about now.
Thanks
Dan
Quote from: Signaller on May 14, 2012, 04:36:29 PM
A Course of action (COA) would be handy about now.
Thanks
Dan
Dan,
AndyB posted somewhere on here with about everything you need to know about the carbs. From specs to rebuild instructions. I downloaded it and saved it as a PDF, but it's on the home PC and I'm at work.
This might answer your current question, but really, search for that posting:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1974.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1974.0)
Andy, do you know where that got put? I gave a quick search and no luck.
Thanks,
CraigO
CraigO,
yup I read that article about 10 times. My concern with that information is that it does not always use jet sizes particular to Randy's catalogue of parts. In fact earlier in this chain someone made reference to a jet size which is not a mikuni size (an observation made by Randy). There is considerable info in the "Files section", specifically in a Child directory for Carburetors and I have read (not necessarily understood) everything. Thanks for the attempt.
All,
I guess I'm looking for a start point with jet sizes. There is plenty of information to work through the tuning part and (I think...) I have cleaned everything.
I'm planning to get the S/S screws and gasket kit for the carbs, as a start. Would going up 1 size in all cases for jets be sufficient to start tinkering?
You are pretty good on the jetting, you might need to enrich the main jet slightly, but it depends on what altitude the majority of your riding occurs and the atmospheric conditions you ride in.
You might just start with rebuilding what you have with the o-ring & S/S screw kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit) and the four (4) inlet screens (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3Ainletscreen).
Randy - RPM
Randy,
Thanks for getting back to me. Most of my driving will be at the 600 to 900 foot level. As for atmospheric conditions... ANY THING GOD can send me. Im not a fair weather rider. I will be ordering those items tomorrow. I just want to have a complete order to put in. I understand that carburetor tuning is an art so what works for one person does not always work for another. Suggested items are appreciated.
Dan
Quote from: Signaller on May 14, 2012, 10:45:14 PM
As for atmospheric conditions... ANY THING GOD can send me. Im not a fair weather rider.
But what is the norm...Desert dry air or rainy moist air?
Randy - RPM
Randy,
The quick answer would be neither. I live in northern Ontario. The average daily temp from April to Oct (bike season) will run from 4 to 27 deg C. (where at 0 water freezes and 21 is room temp). Average humidity would be right in the middle of the two extremes you mentioned.
I'm not looking for "highest" performance gains. This bike is already "stupid fast". I just want her to be content with easier breathing and proper setup.
Dan
If you're around that 500-1000' elevation, but are okay with riding in 100F heat at max humidity and 45F with little humidity, you're probably running in a corrected altitude of -250 to 3500 or so. Where you decide to zero in on is up to you, as pretty much all carb adjustments are just a compromise.
A set of 122.5 mikuni jets (rather than the possibly generic ones you have in there?) will be about in the middle of that range, a little rich on hot days and a little lean in the cold. Pilots will want to be 40's most likely, but you may find 42.5's are needed if the mix screws end up wanting to be really far out. Needle position is harder to describe. If you've got adjustable needles, find out what the stock spec is and go up a half or whole step (needle goes up, clip goes down, for reference).
Honestly, what you have already shouldn't be too far off from the sounds of it. Plugs should only very slightly colored.
Unless you spend all your time at WOT, the needle height is the much more important adjustment!
Get that right and you'll never even notice the main jet.
I would recommend 117.5 to 122.5 on the mains and 40 idle jets. With the 40 idle jets you should not have to change the air pilot jet (155), but if you do, smaller is richer on that jet.
Whatever you do, shim or adjust the needles first.
DavidR.
Randy, DavidR, and Andyb,
1. Thank you very very much for your input. I decided to order the fol:
a. the O-Ring and S/S screw kit;
b. inlet screens X 2 (I have 3 x spare individual carbs that I have been playing with and there were 2 x good ones in them)
c. main jets X 4 (122.5)
d. pilot jets X 4 (42.5)
e. exhaust gaskets X 4 (I want to take the system off to do a good cleaning)
f. Valve Cover Bolt Grommet X 8 (I have a little leaking so I want to replace them all)
Randy,
2. The order is in.
All,
3. I am waiting "with bated breath" for my parts. I will let you know how the installs go. Thanks for reading my posts.
Dan
Just curious if anyone else out there is using 42.5 idle jets?
I always caution against over jetting it can cause tuning problems. I've seen a lot of carbs that were overjetted and I couldn't get the idle mixture lean enough without the idle quality suffering.
I wouldn't think even a hopped up motor would need idle jets much bigger than stock. If the idle circuit is jetted too rich, it will smell like raw fuel. Since the idle mixture screws are controlling an air/fuel mixture, screwing them in "may" not provide the solution since the mixture is overly rich due to the large jets. In order to get it lean enough, the screws are practically closed which is not a good running setting.
If you've only got a pipe and filters, go with the 40s. They are working quite well in both of my FJs.
Pat, this could be some of your problem we've been PM-ing!
DavidR.
I'm happier with the 42.5's myself. With the 40's, the mix screws had to be way, way out, and they bike still wouldn't cruise smoothly.
Also depends on your fuel quality, I'd guess.
AndyB/DavidR,
Excellent feed back. Thanks. BTW I still have the #40 pilot jets to play with. So I will be putting things together first with them then go to the 42.5's. I originally got them because they were inexpensive and they will give me some wiggle room when I start tinkering.
Im not sure what the octane ratings are here in Canada but there are always 3 grades available and I alway use the best grade available.
So... with playing with the jetting and the S/S SuperTrapp and upto 20 disks to play with this is going to be a "witches brew" of a tinkering opportunity. Im soooo looking forward to the experiment (s).
Dan
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on May 16, 2012, 11:19:23 AM
Just curious if anyone else out there is using 42.5 idle jets?
I always caution against over jetting it can cause tuning problems. I've seen a lot of carbs that were overjetted and I couldn't get the idle mixture lean enough without the idle quality suffering.
I wouldn't think even a hopped up motor would need idle jets much bigger than stock. If the idle circuit is jetted too rich, it will smell like raw fuel. Since the idle mixture screws are controlling an air/fuel mixture, screwing them in "may" not provide the solution since the mixture is overly rich due to the large jets. In order to get it lean enough, the screws are practically closed which is not a good running setting.
If you've only got a pipe and filters, go with the 40s. They are working quite well in both of my FJs. Pat, this could be some of your problem we've been PM-ing!
DavidR.
40s in my '90, D&D 4-2-1, UNI pods, DYNA 2k/coils/Taylor wires. My A/F screws are all ~1 turn out..... 42.5s would be too much for mine.
In my experience and everything I've read by acknowledged Industry experts say the ideal is between 1 & 2 turns out.
It used to be a well-known fact that the big-bore bikes had lean pilots because they were/are the circuit mainly used for the EPA emissions certification testing. Big-bores never see the RPMs go high enough to get into the needles, let alone main jets. Seems that now, 10 - 15 years later, this is forgotten.... Electronics changed a lot of things.
Quote from: RichBaker on May 16, 2012, 08:48:30 PM
In my experience and everything I've read by acknowledged Industry experts say the ideal is between 1 & 2 turns out.
I've never heard anyone ever say that more than 2 turns out is too much. Over 4 turns, yes, as they become non-linear and don't do a lot out that far. I've heard that you can often choose between two pilots if you want, like a 40 with 3 turns out or a 42 with 1.5 turns out should be pretty close to the same mixture.
I endlessly tried the 40's, and it's possible that there's some other factor that we're not allowing for, but anything from 1 turn to 5 turns didn't give a smooth cruise. I stuck 42's in it and had an immediate improvement with things set from 2-3 turns out (started at 2.5 iirc and tweaked until the idle quality was what I wanted). So it's definitely possible at times to need a different pilot! I'll admit that I never put the 40's up to inspection on an optical comparitor, microscope, etc, and I only had one set... maybe one was manufactured poorly?
Of semi-related note, I ride down to the St Louis area about once a year. The bike I ride tends to get 44-46mpg in IL on the ride down, and 49-50mpg on the way back. I'm guessing that it's not a consistent wind problem, but related to the quality of fuel somehow differing between the two areas. Haven't been to a dragstrip on MO fuel to know for sure (I'd have to bring a pail back to try at the local track here to really know, rather than a track that I haven't tested at before).
QuoteBig-bores never see the RPMs go high enough to get into the needles, let alone main jets. Seems that now, 10 - 15 years later, this is forgotten.... Electronics changed a lot of things.
Am I the only person that goes WFO near the redline? Maybe it's because I race regularly... but having the right main jet makes the difference between pulling hard to redline and either falling flat early or misfiring rich when the needles top out.... Why on earth would anyone spend the money and time on an exhaust and good filters only to not bother on $20 worth of brass to take advantage? That's all of the negatives without getting any of the positives (other than weight loss, I suppose)!!
Quote from: andyb on May 17, 2012, 08:23:22 AM
Am I the only person that goes WFO near the redline? Maybe it's because I race regularly...
When I'm out riding, I rarely use anything past 1/4 throttle. 1/4 throttle on an FJ carries more than enough speed. And accelerating through a curve, anything more than that will break the rear end loose.
I understand your racing scenario, but WFO does not belong on the street.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on May 16, 2012, 11:19:23 AM
Pat, this could be some of your problem we've been PM-ing!
Hey David, my pilots are currently 40's. I don't think I want the 38.5's out here in the desert summer heat....so I've currently got the air screws set at 1.5 turns out and it *seems* to have solved the problem of rich idle. I'll know more after this weekend when I put some miles on her.
If not...I don't want to go any further in with the air screws....I'll change the 155 air bleed jets to the leaner 160's, but as of now, it seems fine.
As I expected, all customary jetting for the FJ using the BS36's is out the window with the big 1350 pump.
After the upcoming WCR/Colorado trip the new engine should be well seasoned... I'll get her over to a dyno, then with O2 sensors and a/f readings we can see exactly where we are... I like my stock headpipes, they have provisions for a O2 sensor in each tube. Kinda cool.
Thanks again David....and Frank!
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on May 17, 2012, 10:18:01 PM
Quote from: andyb on May 17, 2012, 08:23:22 AM
Am I the only person that goes WFO near the redline? Maybe it's because I race regularly...
When I'm out riding, I rarely use anything past 1/4 throttle. 1/4 throttle on an FJ carries more than enough speed. And accelerating through a curve, anything more than that will break the rear end loose.
I understand your racing scenario, but WFO does not belong on the street.
DavidR.
I think you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong. But I'll bet the reality is because of the roads we ride. There's not enough twisties in the north half of IL to last more than 20min if you strung them all together! I'll agree that there's not much brains in using the entire motor when you're in the twisties, but there's a time and place for it (merging onto I294 would be a good example!). More importantly to me is that when I ask the bike to give me all it's got, I want to get all I can. I don't often need 100% of my brakes, but it's sure nice to have them working optimally when you want them all!
Peace Andy.
And, I forgot about the car passing scenario. :-)
DavidR.
Quote from: andyb on May 17, 2012, 08:23:22 AM
Quote from: RichBaker on May 16, 2012, 08:48:30 PM
In my experience and everything I've read by acknowledged Industry experts say the ideal is between 1 & 2 turns out.
I've never heard anyone ever say that more than 2 turns out is too much. Over 4 turns, yes, as they become non-linear and don't do a lot out that far. I've heard that you can often choose between two pilots if you want, like a 40 with 3 turns out or a 42 with 1.5 turns out should be pretty close to the same mixture.
I said
IDEAL, nothing else......... ideal.
Quote from: andyb on May 17, 2012, 08:23:22 AM
Quote from: RichBaker on May 16, 2012, 08:48:30 PM
Big-bores never see the RPMs go high enough to get into the needles, let alone main jets. Seems that now, 10 - 15 years later, this is forgotten.... Electronics changed a lot of things.
Am I the only person that goes WFO near the redline? Maybe it's because I race regularly... but having the right main jet makes the difference between pulling hard to redline and either falling flat early or misfiring rich when the needles top out.... Why on earth would anyone spend the money and time on an exhaust and good filters only to not bother on $20 worth of brass to take advantage? That's all of the negatives without getting any of the positives (other than weight loss, I suppose)!!
You cut the MOST important part of that quote, the part where I said that the EPA test NEVER GETS INTO THE NEEDLES..... If you want to make me look bad, do it where you may actually know what you're talking about! Don't be putting words into, or taking them out, of my post!!!
I said NOTHING about real-world use... quit being a jackass! Everything you quoted, I was talking about the testing EPA does to certify a vehicle for emissions..... If you had understood me, you would have realized that I was stating that the Mains and needles are pretty dang close to perfect for the STOCK engine. Reading
comprehension is Fundamental....
Quote from: RichBaker on May 19, 2012, 09:41:52 PM
You cut the MOST important part of that quote, the part where I said that the EPA test NEVER GETS INTO THE NEEDLES..... If you want to make me look bad, do it where you may actually know what you're talking about! Don't be putting words into, or taking them out, of my post!!!
I said NOTHING about real-world use... quit being a jackass! Everything you quoted, I was talking about the testing EPA does to certify a vehicle for emissions..... If you had understood me, you would have realized that I was stating that the Mains and needles are pretty dang close to perfect for the STOCK engine. Reading comprehension is Fundamental....
My apologies, rich. I was wondering what kind of rider everyone was if they weren't using the needles and mains. The way I read your statement was in two separate ideas, not reading both as being connected by the idea of EPA testing. Wasn't entirely sure how EPA testing done to a spec 20 years ago on an unmodified machine was relevant, and that made it harder to follow.
So no, I didn't understand, because it wasn't worded clearly to me. :empathy3: