Just got an 89 FJ1200. Riding it home I felt that it was very slow to idle down, both when downshifting or just engaging the clutch. Downshifting at lower RPM engage clutch and it wouldn't drop below 3k, and when came to stop it would take a few seconds to drop from 2500-3000 to 1000, and a couple times I had to blip the throttle, or actually release the clutch while holding brake to get it to drop. Then other times it would idle down quickly or what I would consider normal. When I got home I could not get it to drop below 2500 RPM before shutting it down.
Then about 10 minutes later I thought I heard an electrical whine, but realized it was the gas tank slowly releasing pressure... is this normal, or could there be a vent plugged? I kinda wondered if that was the case, could it be causing the uneven erratic idle? BTW, the tank was only about 1/2 full.
Back your idle jets out 1/2 turn and see if that helps.
Don't worry about your tank, that's just the way your FJ sings to you....she's happy.
You could do the tank flapperectony. See the info. in the Files section.
If you take you gas cap apart, beware there's a little spring and ball which flies away...always happens. :dash1:
So take your gas cap apart in a empty 5 gallon bucket. Trust me. :good:
I bet I've seen this identical post 30 times over the last few years.
I don't recall a SINGLE one that EVER reported a fix for the problem. We offered a multitude of checks and fixes, but I can't point to a single post where anyone came back with any success.
That's not to say it can't be fixed, (air leak, sticking throttle cable, etc, etc.). Appears that the recepients either never get it solved and go away, or are just too lazy to help anyone else out and report back.
DavidR.
Yep....Lately it does seem that way David.
People dump their shit which illicits a half dozen or more suggestions from knowledgeable forum members, only to not even take the time to say thank you, let alone report back on what the final solution was.....
I give them one bit at the apple, after that, fockem.
Another thing that bugs me, is all the time and effort we spent building the Files sections, which if viewed, would answer their questions....
But noooo, that would take them too much time...... so fockem.
I'm gettin cranky.... I need a nap.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 27, 2012, 03:49:27 PM
...not even take the time to say thank you...
Well, I'd like to take the time to say "Thank You".
Thank you.
Seriously, _THANK YOU_, everyone, who has taken the time to help me and others on here, both directly and indirectly. This forum is **GREAT** and the members are very patient.
Every now and again my 1992 ABS model has this high idle issue. It just started recently, so I'll be watching this thread. (and using the SEARCH function, of course!)
Steve
Yes, thanks a bunch to all you guys.
What would one do without you?
I visit this site every day, it is my main occupation to read the posts here every time I visit the web.
Kudos to the people that maintain this site and help to make it such a unique place of helping people out, sharing ideas and knowledge.
The FILES section is a GREAT PLACE to hang out! And image the time it took to COMPILE it!
Cheers to you guys!
well, I tried setting the idle lower and cant find happy medium. With it set low to the point of dying, at times it still idles at 2500.
As far as followup responses, I am having a hard time navigating this forum compared to other sites I frequent. I had to look at my profile to track down easier to see if any replies were left for my post...can't seem to get setup correctly for email notifications.
And is there no "new" since last visited, or todays post by topic? I am probably just missing something but the format just seems more difficult to me. Please no one take offense, not my intent, but do let me know how you tend to navigate the site.
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 27, 2012, 07:16:14 PM
well, I tried setting the idle lower and cant find happy medium. With it set low to the point of dying, at times it still idles at 2500.
Sure sounds like an intake air leak to me. Spray the intake boot area judiciously with starter fluid with the bike running. If the engine revs up, you have an intake leak.
Had the same problem on a different bike. Read all about it here:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4631.msg40948#msg40948 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4631.msg40948#msg40948)
Dan
This site is actually much easier to navigate, in my opinion, than most others.
Once you sign in, each main topic that has new posts will be highlighted. When you then click on a specific thread, it will open and then if you wait a second or two take you to the last message YOU have previously read. Try it , it works great.
Arnie
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 27, 2012, 07:29:53 PM
As far as followup responses, I am having a hard time navigating this forum compared to other sites I frequent. I had to look at my profile to track down easier to see if any replies were left for my post...can't seem to get setup correctly for email notifications.
And is there no "new" since last visited, or todays post by topic? I am probably just missing something but the format just seems more difficult to me. Please no one take offense, not my intent, but do let me know how you tend to navigate the site.
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 27, 2012, 07:29:53 PM
As far as followup responses, I am having a hard time navigating this forum compared to other sites I frequent. I had to look at my profile to track down easier to see if any replies were left for my post...can't seem to get setup correctly for email notifications.
And is there no "new" since last visited, or todays post by topic? I am probably just missing something but the format just seems more difficult to me. Please no one take offense, not my intent, but do let me know how you tend to navigate the site.
At the upper header there is a "Most Recent Posts" button. That reveals the last 100 posts and the one I use exclusively.
...It is next to the "Unread" & "Replies" buttons.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 27, 2012, 08:32:29 PM
At the upper header there is a "Most Recent Posts" button. That reveals the last 100 posts and the one I use exclusively.
Yup. Me too.
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 27, 2012, 07:46:27 PM
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 27, 2012, 07:16:14 PM
well, I tried setting the idle lower and cant find happy medium. With it set low to the point of dying, at times it still idles at 2500.
Sure sounds like an intake air leak to me. Spray the intake boot area judiciously with starter fluid with the bike running. If the engine revs up, you have an intake leak.
Had the same problem on a different bike. Read all about it here:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4631.msg40948#msg40948 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4631.msg40948#msg40948)
Dan
Had the exact same issue w/ my '89 right after I bought it & performed the starter fluid trick, to no avail. (but it will tell you if there's an air intake leak, so don't rule it out).
The problem turned out to be the carbs just needing to be synced. Now she purrs like a kitten @ 1000 to 1100RPM's & I couldn't have done it without the help of the fine Fj'ers on here!!! Thanks everyone!! :yes:
Hope that helps.
Corey
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 26, 2012, 10:21:42 PM
Back your idle jets out 1/2 turn and see if that helps.
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 27, 2012, 07:16:14 PM
well, I tried setting the idle lower and cant find happy medium. With it set low to the point of dying, at times it still idles at 2500.
Hey Bob, please don't think my rant was directed at you, it was not.
In reading your description of the problem, I assumed a couple of things:
1) I assumed that your bike returned to idle just fine when the bike was first started and early in the ride. True?
Only later in the ride when the engine was heat soaked did the high idle problem occur. True?
If so...That is the classic rich setting on the idle jets. It does not manifest itself until the bike is thoroughly warm and results in a hanging high idle. I suggested leaning out your idle jets and *not adjusting your idle speed*.
Messing with your idle speed will not do anything for your problem, as you found out.
2) I assumed the carbs were properly sync'ed.
3) I assumed that your throttle cables and choke cable were working correctly and your carb linkage was properly closing the throttle plates and fully opening the choke.
4) I assumed that you had no vacuum air leaks.
Let us know what you find. Cheers!
Wait a second... lean pilots should be worse with a cold motor and should improve as the motor heats up. Or you're saying that the idle is set crazy high, and they're just starting to properly work once it's heatsoaked?
If the bike sat for more than a week or two, I'd wonder if they didn't get slightly plugged with varnish, myself. Wouldn't be a big shocker if it was sitting for sale for awhile.
If everything's clean and adjusted as far as that goes, synch can occasionally cause the same sort of idle strangeness.
But honestly, if it's a new to you machine, you may as well open things up and get an idea of if the last owner(s) was an idiot or not. Never know what you'll find inside a set of carbs..
Quote from: andyb on March 28, 2012, 12:57:38 AM
Wait a second... lean pilots should be worse with a cold motor and should improve as the motor heats up.
To quote from the Factory Pro Mikuni CV carb tuning recommendations:
"....
If the throttle is lightly "blipped" at idle, and the rpm "hangs up" before dropping to the set idle speed, and there are no intake leaks and the idle speed is set at less than 1000 rpm, the mixture screws are probably too lean: try 1/2 turn out, to richen mixture. Be sure there are no intake leaks and the idle speed is set at less than 1000 rpm!...."
http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtune,CV,high_rpm_engines.html (http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtune,CV,high_rpm_engines.html)
Bob, assuming #2 thru #4 is correct (in my above post) set your idle speed to 1,000 rpm, then as the engine heats up, do the "blip test" if your engine does not return to idle (continues to race) turn your idle jets out by 1/2 turn.
Note: The center adjusting knob below your carbs (accessible from underneath) sets the idle speed, and the 4 idle jets are located on the top of the carb.
The throttle plates on the carbs are synchronized by the 3 adjusting screws located on the shaft of the throttle plates. If you tried to set the idle speed by messing with any on these 3 screws *stop* you will need to re-synchronize your carbs before you go any further.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 28, 2012, 03:10:42 PM
To quote from the Factory Pro Mikuni CV carb tuning recommendations:
"....If the throttle is lightly "blipped" at idle, and the rpm "hangs up" before dropping to the set idle speed, and there are no intake leaks and the idle speed is set at less than 1000 rpm, the mixture screws are probably too lean: try 1/2 turn out, to richen mixture. Be sure there are no intake leaks and the idle speed is set at less than 1000 rpm!...."
http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtune,CV,high_rpm_engines.html (http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtune,CV,high_rpm_engines.html)
Yes Pat. And the line right above the line you quoted:
"...
NOTE: A lean problem gets better as the engine heats up."
:) A blip test is not the same as the idle running high as it warms up.
I've seen this happen in two ways, the first was when you came to a stop in town, the idle would run 2500ish. Loading the bike against the clutch with the brakes on would bring it down to 1100 (where it was set), and it would stay there until the next time you came to a stop. The cure was a synch, that time.
The other way I've seen it happen was a partially plugged set of pilots with old gas nasties. The idle was actually set at 3000rpm, but the bike took nearly 20 minutes to get all the way to temp on a cooler day! So it would idle fine after a few minutes worth of riding, but after an hour's ride, it wouldn't come down at all. Cleaning the carbs' idle circuits made the difference (and then turning the idle way, way down!)
In both cases iirc the carbs had come off before finding the cure, so it's possible that there was a mild air leak that got worse as things got warm that was fixed by reseating things during assembly.
Because this is a bit of an unknown machine, I'd personally just tear it apart, write down whatever's in the carbs currently, give everything a good cleaning followed by a synch, and start from a known set of condiitons. You could try running seafoam or the like through it and twiddling the mix screws (which would very likely help if it was purchased from a significantly different elevation or something), but if you're going to have plans for things like new filters, pipes, and so on, knowing what's in there and knowing it's right will save a bit of waiting later on when moditis kicks in :)
I had the same problem with my FJ1100,
it occured to me that perhaps the idle was adjusted to high, and letting mixture through as well as the idle circuit, so I have dropped the idle screw down, riched up the idle jet so the bike only runs from the idle circuit, just in case the carbs are a little out in sync.
Well the results are great, the bike idles well, no more surging, no more dipping of the idle. It will suffice until I can get a decent synch, which as soon as I sort out the electrical problem, will be soon I hope.
good luck, give it a try...
cheers, Gareth
thanks all for the replies, looks to be some great info here. To be honest, I am not much of a mechanic, but my son is, so I am trying to gather info for the next time he comes home LOL. I guess not sure he is up to a carb sync, and I think that takes special equipment(?), so may have to think about a dealer visit.
When I got the bike it basically came right out of winter storage, and the owner said he didn't ride it a whole lot last year. He seemed to be knowledgeable mechanically wise, but who knows... heck, for all I know he is among the members of this board.
In the mean time the way I make sure it isn't idling at 2500 at every stop, I find that if I don't engage the clutch and brake, not engage the clutch until almost stopped, it will idle down and rarely pop up, although now and again it will.
Oh, and thanks for the surfing tips... I completely missed the most recent post, inread, replies, etc buttons, they blended in I guess :wacko3:
Quote from: andyb on March 28, 2012, 05:42:10 PM
Yes Pat. And the line right above the line you quoted:
"...NOTE: A lean problem gets better as the engine heats up."
I never said that it didn't....So Andy, I gotta ask you, which way would you go with the idle jets? Leaner or Richer?
Don't sidestep my question and suggest a full carb overhaul... Just a simple answer please, leaner or richer for a hanging idle?
Sheesh
the investment in a method of synching the carbs cannot be understated with this engine.
the morgan carbtune is very nice and if you have the means i highly recommend it. There are also some designs for build yer own but either way i would consider this to be an essential tool to own.
I personally sync my carbs whenever i feel the vibrations start to pick up in the engine. its not unusual for me to have to re-sync the carbs at least once a season if im riding her hard....... Its very noticeable on the early model FJs (non rubber mounted engines).... just being out of adjustment a small amount makes a big difference in the amount of felt vibes.
and if you can pull the tank off you can sync the carbs... its super easy.
KOokaloo!
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 28, 2012, 07:04:07 PM
thanks all for the replies, looks to be some great info here. To be honest, I am not much of a mechanic, but my son is, so I am trying to gather info for the next time he comes home LOL. I guess not sure he is up to a carb sync, and I think that takes special equipment(?), so may have to think about a dealer visit.
It will probably be cheaper if you buy your own sync tool and do it yourself. There are plenty of horror stories of guys taking their FJ in to a dealer only to receive terrible service because the kids working on the bike weren't even born when it was made and they look at it as an old piece of junk.
I sell a lot of these, Sync-Pro (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3Asyncpro)
You can find all of the information on what you need to do in the Carb Files section.
Randy - RPM
Yes, buy tour own sync tool. It will save you money in the long run as you will probably use it two or seven times.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 28, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: andyb on March 28, 2012, 05:42:10 PM
Yes Pat. And the line right above the line you quoted:
"...NOTE: A lean problem gets better as the engine heats up."
I never said that it didn't....So Andy, I gotta ask you, which way would you go with the idle jets? Leaner or Richer?
Don't sidestep my question and suggest a full carb overhaul... Just a simple answer please, leaner or richer for a hanging idle?
Sheesh
Pat, with what he's describing, I'd try a synch. And yes, I'd then take stuff apart and see what's in there. A hanging idle that can be forced down and stays there until the throttle is hit again doesn't mean the idle mixture is wrong, it says something else is. Or possibly the idle mix is comically, hilariously wrong, but you'd think there'd be other symptoms at that point. I do agree that richening them a quarter turn or so would be a way to test what's wrong, as it should help if the pilots are undersized, adjusted lean, or marginally plugged, but that should also show up in other ways, for example surging at slow cruise and excessive warmup times.
I make a point of trying to assess the problem before doing much of anything, you know that :)
Quote from: Toy4Bob on March 26, 2012, 09:26:45 PM
Just got an 89 FJ1200.
Then about 10 minutes later I thought I heard an electrical whine, but realized it was the gas tank slowly releasing pressure... is this normal, or could there be a vent plugged? I kinda wondered if that was the case, could it be causing the uneven erratic idle? BTW, the tank was only about 1/2 full.
My '90 has been doing that since I got her with 2300 miles on her, in 1994.... don't worry about it, I've never heard of a fuel-pump bike thaat needed a flap-ectomy! I've heard brand-new Yamahas sitting on the showroom floor do it....
Hi all.
Not being an fj carb guru but reading through this thread a thought struck me.Is it possible that maybe one of the slides may be sticking?.Is it worth checking that the slides all snap back down?A weak slide spring perhaps?.Just a thought :scratch_one-s_head: :pardon: :crazy:
Cheers :drinks:
Jeff P
Jeff, my #4 carb did just that for awhile... after a long blast through the gears staying at WOT, it'd stick in the fully up position. Made it blubberingly rich until 6k or so, and normal after that. If it happens, you'll know it; gives you a rough idle, as fat as a harley through the midrange, and with an FJ top end!
A light touch with engine oil to the slide cured it. Never found anything it was hanging up on either, I assume it just was getting cocked a bit at the top and getting stuck.
Hi Andy.
I was wondering what the symptoms would show if a slide stuck just short of fully down.I guesstimate that it might be like badly sync'd carbs,although with the butterfly closed maybe just too rich?.I had one do it after rebuilding my carbs but noticed it before reinstalling them.Pulled out the slide,gave the slide and carb slide bore a clean,little spray of wd and reassembled and everything was good.
Cheers and thanks for the info! :drinks:
Jeff P
Quote from: flips on March 30, 2012, 12:37:14 AM
Hi all.
Not being an fj carb guru but reading through this thread a thought struck me.Is it possible that maybe one of the slides may be sticking?.Is it worth checking that the slides all snap back down?A weak slide spring perhaps?.Just a thought :scratch_one-s_head: :pardon: :crazy:
Cheers :drinks:
Jeff P
The slide not fully seating should not have effect on the idle. The throttle plates at the closed and idle position will not allow enough vacuum to draw fuel from the emulsion tube.
If the engine is idling you can reach in and manually raise the slide with your finger, You will get a slight increase due to the fuel on the needle as you raise it, but is should subside right back to idle.
If the slide is raised, then as soon as there is enough vacuum to draw the fuel it is really rich as the needle is in a raised position and allows to much fuel to pass. It will be really rich until the needle range is reached and then it will run fine.
The basics of the carbs have to be in good working order and the adjustments have to be within the range to get the thing to run right. If there are vacuum leaks, frayed/sticking throttle cables, etc then it really doesn't matter what the carb is doing those things have to be addressed first.
Hopefully, the issues will come to light when the son arrives.
Randy - RPM
Thanks for the info Randy :good:
Cheers :drinks:
Jeff P
All right guys, here is the follow-up.
Finally bought a carb pro sync, and the kid came home from school. We did the sync tonight, was pretty darn easy and I will have no trouble doing it myself in the future. And the best part is it did fix the idle down issue!
Next is to try to fix the delay / slight lag when first give the throttle a twist. If I don't give throttle a blip prior to actually throttling to take of from a stop, I have killed it.
SURPRISE!!!!
Mine is doing this too! Fatter than elephant shit at idle. And it'll only idle below 1k or above 2k. Really lopey too. I was hoping a Carb sync, new uni pods and a 120 main would fix it. Nope. I just did the valves too. Also, I read that the uni pods made the intake louder, but I'm hearing a clacking sounds when I romp on it, wtf is that? 120 miles to the tank is no good either.
I'm gonna take another stab at it right now. Use the color tune for the mixture, resync and try resetting the idle. The carbs were rebuilt 8k miles ago, I sure hope nothings sticking or plugged in there.
:music:
Quote from: wakdady on June 28, 2012, 07:18:28 PM
SURPRISE!!!!
Mine is doing this too! Fatter than elephant shit at idle. And it'll only idle below 1k or above 2k. Really lopey too. I was hoping a Carb sync, new uni pods and a 120 main would fix it. Nope. I just did the valves too. Also, I read that the uni pods made the intake louder, but I'm hearing a clacking sound
s when I romp on it, wtf is that? 120 miles to the tank is no good either.
I'm gonna take another stab at it right now. Use the color tune for the mixture, resync and try resetting the idle. The carbs were rebuilt 8k miles ago, I sure hope nothings sticking or plugged in there.
:music:
Henry,
Sounds like a trip to Oakdale on Saturday afternoon
Randy - RPM
Here's the scoop. Cylinder 1 is rich no matter what I do. I couldn't get the blue flame regardless. The plug was completely black, covered with oil or fuel. It may be a plugged pilot, or something in the Carb. The diaphragm is good as new and slides correctly, the needle is also in great shape.
Not really sure where to go next. I would blame the rings and blow by but that doesn't explain the rich scenario.
:flag_of_truce:
Yes, a trip to Oakdale will cure any & all malfunctions...
Not to mention it will eliminate a lot of potential future problems as the gentleman from RPM actually looks the bike over as he is performing the repair at hand.
I have found Randy to be not only well versed on theory, but he is able to put that theory [quite easily] into practice; very thoroughly and competently as well.
Ride safely,
Mike Ramos.
Did you change the needle seat o-rings when you rebuilt the carbs?
Sounds like you have unmetered fuel sneaking into the intake. Check the fuel level.
DavidR.
Or a leaking choke.
If air were sneaking past, wouldn't it run leaner? With the diaphragm removed, looking at the choke slider, in the closed position its still open by very small amount, like half a millimeter.
So, will I see you tomorrow afternoon?
Randy - RPM
Quote from: wakdady on June 29, 2012, 08:01:16 PM
If air were sneaking past, wouldn't it run leaner? With the diaphragm removed, looking at the choke slider, in the closed position its still open by very small amount, like half a millimeter.
What david was suggesting was fuel sneaking past, not air. Does sound like you've found the problem perhaps though. Why do you have to remove the diaphram to see the choke slider, though?
I've taken he entire Carb apart and I don't see anything out of place. Everything is nice and clean and free moving.
Should there be o rings in the needle and mixture screw? I don't have those, if so.
Yes, small o-ring 1x3 I believe along with small washer under the spring. You can see all the parts on my website. Search idle mixture screw.
Randy - RPM
Henry, I noticed that when I pulled my idle jet needles out, the spring and o ring washer came out with the needle, but the o rings thenselves were stuck on the seat way down in the carb bore. Very dark down there. I had to get a flashlight to see them.
I needed a angled pick to reach down there and get them unstuck and pulled out.
Cheers amigo!
Lol, looks like I never installed the orings with the new mixture screws! Been running it like that since I got the bike.
Now the needle. Does someone have a picture of how it all goes together? I feel there might be something missing there.
To sum up, running an exhaust, Randy's uni pods, 120 main, I should be at the second clip from the bottom on the needle, right?
The three orings in this kit, where do they go?
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3Arebuildkit3&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3Arebuildkit3&cat=24)
Thank you Pat Conlon for the concise 4 step troubleshooting guide. I have been lurking around this site since acquiring my 31K 1990 FJ. The forum has been informative,helpful and inspirational for me. After many mods and maintenance I took my bike for the first ride of the year and encountered the high idle. I thought I might have a cable routing issue because it idled fine in the garage with the tank off. I looked it all over and found it to be fine, tested it in the garage with the tank on and idle was 1K. I took it to work today and it idled down at the gas station (1 mile from home) but at the next stoplight (2 miles) the idle was 2K when I got to work the idle was 2.3K. If I touch the choke the idle drops and after the bike cooled off the idle is fine again. Now I had a very good description of the symptoms and checked the FJ forum :yahoo: ! I am going to check my idle screws at lunch and expect that my bike will run perfectly on the way home. After that Chain and sprockets and A stop at my friends house to use the carb stix and I am done! (for now, more mods planned)
I will post in new members with a description of my FJ journey so far soon. Thank you everyone @ FJ Owners!
Jeff Sandback
Glad it helped Jeff.
As excited as I was I adjusted the idle screws and no change :unknown:. I removed the tank and mixture screws (don't drop the little o-rings or washer) and sprayed carb cleaner through the gallery and put back together at 4-1/4 turns out. No change. Now I am convinced that when I adjusted the floats I must have gotten it wrong and have my level too low and am not drawing enough fuel through. I had an extra float drain screw and fashioned a real time float height tool to see what each carb is at while running. They were all perfect. I borrowed a carb sync tool from a friend and found that the one carb I replaced was out of synch. 20 minutes later all carbs were synched and idle at 900 rpm. Put it all back together and went for a ride. :good2: Perfect! I now have a reliable daily driver. I never thought carb synch could affect idle like that. Lesson learned. Thanks again FJ Owners.
Ok, you've got it running well. Now adjust the idle speed up to 1050-1100rpm. It'll idle smoother, make less noise, and generally perform better.
Arnie