Yes, I know this was written for squids....but this applies for FJ jockeys as well. Good suggestions.
Pucker should always be translated to leaning more when in trouble mid-turn or entering too hot.
Too many lowsides or running off the road these days because folks do not get that the bike can be aggressively turned in a safe manner. Frankly, they are never trained or taught to do this well in many cases. See this every day.
Practice , practice and practice leaning until it is second nature to save f*ucking up your day, your bike and your hide.
Never dug into the road with your pegs through a turn, well, how could you stay in control in an emergency? IMHO.
http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tips/146_1201_coping_with_mid_corner_crises_riding_skills/index.html (http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tips/146_1201_coping_with_mid_corner_crises_riding_skills/index.html)
All it says is lean more, doesn't mention counter steering, it would be useful if it did.
Quote from: ELIMINATOR on March 02, 2012, 10:57:43 AM
All it says is lean more, doesn't mention counter steering, it would be useful if it did.
There is a reason for this.
Counter steering is a natural outcome of using your lower body and knees and feet weighting on the inside peg to steer the bike. With your eyes and head in the proper position.
Too many people just counter steer to turn which weights the bars and truly fucks up your line when you hit a bump mid turn with heavy weight/leverage on the bars.
Hands should be relatively light on the bars with most turn inputs from the body. Yeah, we all get counter steering but if that is your primary means of turning....well...say hello to the asphalt in an emergency situation.
I've found that there is a certain thrill once one learns just how far over a bike can truly lean in a corner, but the practice curve is difficult. :rofl2:
Slidng part way off the seat, dropping the inside knee to the pavement, getting on the gas -- hard -- then slingshotting out of the curve is exhilarating once one masters the effort. High side and it will cost you body parts -- both types -- ask me how I know (at least the silver-dollar sized hole in my left knee is now healed over).
I used to "flat track" dirt bikes so I may be advanced in my feel for the corners, but start slow and work up to a full on weight shift corner, then just try to wipe the perma-grin off your face!
Biggest problems I've found are dragging a bike part and lifting the rear wheel or that slight dust that sometimes gets washed up on a corner. Dust has got me more often than bike parts -- that is predictable, the instant loss of traction isn't. :sorry:
the part in the article that is most important is no abrupt inputs , don't chop throttle or grab a handful of brake, keep the bike settled thru corners .
I think most of us already know this.
the only time that counter steering is not used is when the bike is upright riding slowly. Counter steering happens all the time above that. if a corner tightens unexpectedly, then counter steering drops the bike sharper into the turn, trying to lean more, will not produce such a quick effect.
My definition of counter steering is to push the bar away from you, if going into a right hand bend, push the right bar, this turns the bike quicker. To be honest, I've never tried the weighting of a foot technique. Must give it a try some time.
Also a good way to get the bike upright quickly. (which I've only ever done to see how it works)
ultimately, if you've gone in too fast, you're doing something wrong in the first place! once in a while happens to us all, but, if it's a frequent event?
I've done quite a bit of training, and it's improved my riding, I think I am a safer rider than I was a few years back. Road positioning is paramount to get a good view of the road ahead.
Quote from: ELIMINATOR on March 02, 2012, 12:39:15 PM
the only time that counter steering is not used is when the bike is upright riding slowly. Counter steering happens all the time above that. if a corner tightens unexpectedly, then counter steering drops the bike sharper into the turn, trying to lean more, will not produce such a quick effect.
My definition of counter steering is to push the bar away from you, if going into a right hand bend, push the right bar, this turns the bike quicker. To be honest, I've never tried the weighting of a foot technique. Must give it a try some time.
Also a good way to get the bike upright quickly. (which I've only ever done to see how it works)
ultimately, if you've gone in too fast, you're doing something wrong in the first place! once in a while happens to us all, but, if it's a frequent event?
I've done quite a bit of training, and it's improved my riding, I think I am a safer rider than I was a few years back. Road positioning is paramount to get a good view of the road ahead.
I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bugger impact than weighting the pegs. I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 02, 2012, 01:04:00 PM
Quote from: ELIMINATOR on March 02, 2012, 12:39:15 PM
the only time that counter steering is not used is when the bike is upright riding slowly. Counter steering happens all the time above that. if a corner tightens unexpectedly, then counter steering drops the bike sharper into the turn, trying to lean more, will not produce such a quick effect.
My definition of counter steering is to push the bar away from you, if going into a right hand bend, push the right bar, this turns the bike quicker. To be honest, I've never tried the weighting of a foot technique. Must give it a try some time.
Also a good way to get the bike upright quickly. (which I've only ever done to see how it works)
ultimately, if you've gone in too fast, you're doing something wrong in the first place! once in a while happens to us all, but, if it's a frequent event?
I've done quite a bit of training, and it's improved my riding, I think I am a safer rider than I was a few years back. Road positioning is paramount to get a good view of the road ahead.
I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bugger impact than weighting the pegs. I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs.
Dan
Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. :hi:
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 01:18:17 PM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 02, 2012, 01:04:00 PM
Quote from: ELIMINATOR on March 02, 2012, 12:39:15 PM
the only time that counter steering is not used is when the bike is upright riding slowly. Counter steering happens all the time above that. if a corner tightens unexpectedly, then counter steering drops the bike sharper into the turn, trying to lean more, will not produce such a quick effect.
My definition of counter steering is to push the bar away from you, if going into a right hand bend, push the right bar, this turns the bike quicker. To be honest, I've never tried the weighting of a foot technique. Must give it a try some time.
Also a good way to get the bike upright quickly. (which I've only ever done to see how it works)
ultimately, if you've gone in too fast, you're doing something wrong in the first place! once in a while happens to us all, but, if it's a frequent event?
I've done quite a bit of training, and it's improved my riding, I think I am a safer rider than I was a few years back. Road positioning is paramount to get a good view of the road ahead.
I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bugger impact than weighting the pegs. I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs.
Dan
Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. :hi:
This is going to be good!!! (popcorn)
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 01:18:17 PM
Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. :hi:
Terry-
Jusy like with politics, you are woefully missinformed on this:
Will you argue with Keith Code and a test designed explictly to prove the matter? I rather think Keith has received, (and oh by the way
provided ) a hell of a lot more training than you....
http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm (http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm)
Dan
Quote from: Mark Olson on March 02, 2012, 12:31:26 PM
the part in the article that is most important is no abrupt inputs , don't chop throttle or grab a handful of brake, keep the bike settled thru corners .
I think most of us already know this.
That's right. Also not too much acceleration (if any) in the corners. That brings a lot of people down, including myself. As a former sportbike instructor, the most important things we taught were:
1. Suspension setup (half the day!)
2. C.G. (Center of Gravity) - Prep for the corners and GET OFF THE SEAT and get that C.G down and inside the corner.
3. Looking through the corner
4. Throttle control
We can't talk about this stuff too much. It's a good reminder.
Here's an on-bike video of my instructor:
http://www.dskuhn.com/oleben.wmv (http://www.dskuhn.com/oleben.wmv)
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 02, 2012, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 01:18:17 PM
Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. :hi:
Terry-
Jusy like with politics, you are woefully missinformed on this:
Will you argue with Keith Code and a test designed explictly to prove the matter? I rather think Keith has received, (and oh by the way provided ) a hell of a lot more training than you....
http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm (http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm)
Dan
As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities. Dan, get thee, as in you and your bike to a race track and get some track time with training and report back. BTW - Code advocates what I speaking about as well. It is not just about yanking on a handle bar dan.
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.
OK Terry,
First off, I have to say that you put the 1st shot across Dan's bow on this. It was you who attacked him first. No one was talking to you about this and Dan's advise was valid. So why this attack on Dan out of you?
I have watched you 2 spar over the debt, how we American's should be taxed and what the liberal media has "spewed" upon us, and I do not agree with you on any of your points.
And now, without anyone saying anything to you personally attack Dan on the issue of riding skills. To say Dan has personally "attacked" you, is way over the line.
I know there is no use arguing with you about my personal feelings about how the government should be run as you are so lost in the liberal spin, it's not even worth it. I could go on, but as from the first sentence, what's the point.
Good day,
CraigO
Quote from: craigo on March 02, 2012, 02:47:30 PM
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.
OK Terry,
First off, I have to say that you put the 1st shot across Dan's bow on this. It was you who attacked him first. No one was talking to you about this and Dan's advise was valid. So why this attack on Dan out of you?
I have watched you 2 spar over the debt, how we American's should be taxed and what the liberal media has "spewed" upon us, and I do not agree with you on any of your points.
And now, without anyone saying anything to you personally attack Dan on the issue of riding skills. To say Dan has personally "attacked" you, is way over the line.
I know there is no use arguing with you about my personal feelings about how the government should be run as you are so lost in the liberal spin, it's not even worth it. I could go on, but as from the first sentence, what's the point.
Good day,
CraigO
Craigo -...stick to your own knitting as no one was speaking to you sir.
Well said, Craig! :yes:
Ahh, deflect and admit no wrong doing.
Typical liberal narcissist,
CraigO
To everyone else, sorry for the thread hijack
I think they're both "misinformed". If you find yourself in trouble in a turn ----- "lay'er down". All those H-D fags can't be wrong.
It really is like we are on two different planets -did you read the article? Craigo's comments summed up my feeling on the personal crap.
To the point of the thread. One simply can not refute what I said, and justified with a cogent, relevant, article that describes a test with a result that illustrates exactly what I said, if not more. Let's review what I did say, shall we? I said:
"I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bigger impact than weighting the pegs. I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs."
Notice I did not say "weighting the pegs has no impact", nor did I say "moving your body/ weighting the pegs is not required for great turns"
Somehow Terry's response seems to be that my opinion of this would change if I got more training...
Here are some quotes from that article that I thought were relevant and to my point:
"As a proponent of counter steering, Keith finally got tired of hearing about "body steering" from his students who had attended other track schools, and built an experimental motorcycle to allow riders to prove to themselves whether body steering or counter steering was the dominant cornering input."
"But is the primary steering input through the handlebar grips, or through some other part of the bike, say foot pressure on the pegs, knee pressure against the tank, or body weight shifted in the saddle?"
Then: "If you figure out how to body steer, be sure and tell me"
and
"...all that elbow-waving, knee-slamming, shoulder-leaning body English may be good for your heart and muscles, but it doesn't do much to control the bike. Two wheeled motorcycles are balanced and steered by counter steering the front wheel, just like Wilbur Wright said."
hmmmm, wait a second, that all sounds familiar, where have I heard those thoughts before? Hell, Code goes further on the matter and seems to suggest is has little to no input on steering.
Shall we argue whether or not the sky is blue now?
(popcorn)
Dan
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 01:18:17 PM
Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. :hi:
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.
I hate getting into the middle of a battle. But Terry, you are the one that first threw the first personal attack out there. Like I tell my kids - "Don't poke the bear."
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 02, 2012, 03:24:58 PM
It really is like we are on two different planets -did you read the article? Craigo's comments summed up my feeling on the personal crap.
To the point of the thread. One simply can not refute what I said, and justified with a cogent, relevant, article that describes a test with a result that illustrates exactly what I said, if not more. Let's review what I did say, shall we? I said:
"I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bigger impact than weighting the pegs. I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs."
Notice I did not say "weighting the pegs has no impact", nor did I say "moving your body/ weighting the pegs is not required for great turns"
Somehow Terry's response seems to be that my opinion of this would change if I got more training...
Here are some quotes from that article that I thought were relevant and to my point:
"As a proponent of counter steering, Keith finally got tired of hearing about "body steering" from his students who had attended other track schools, and built an experimental motorcycle to allow riders to prove to themselves whether body steering or counter steering was the dominant cornering input."
"But is the primary steering input through the handlebar grips, or through some other part of the bike, say foot pressure on the pegs, knee pressure against the tank, or body weight shifted in the saddle?"
Then: "If you figure out how to body steer, be sure and tell me"
and
"...all that elbow-waving, knee-slamming, shoulder-leaning body English may be good for your heart and muscles, but it doesn't do much to control the bike. Two wheeled motorcycles are balanced and steered by counter steering the front wheel, just like Wilbur Wright said."
hmmmm, wait a second, that all sounds familiar, where have I heard those thoughts before? Hell, Code goes further on the matter and seems to suggest is has little to no input on steering.
Shall we argue whether or not the sky is blue now?
(popcorn)
Dan
Dan, Dan, dDn. You do not have much of a point here. Your Font manipulation is severly retarded BTW. I am not going to argue with you on this as you clearly are lucky to survive on the road as you have more rant than technique. (popcorn)
Quote from: Lotsokids on March 02, 2012, 03:38:17 PM
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 01:18:17 PM
Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. :hi:
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.
I hate getting into the middle of a battle. But Terry, you are the one that first threw the first personal attack out there. Like I tell my kids - "Don't poke the bear."
Dude....go push a bike.
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 03:49:34 PM
Dan, Dan, dDn. You do not have much of a point here. Your Font manipulation is severly retarded BTW. I am not going to argue with you on this as you clearly are lucky to survive on the road as you have more rant than technique. (popcorn)
Whatever let's you sleep at night Terry.
I've long known that arguing with you is pointless. You're just too smart for me.
Dan
Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?
What matters is if the bike leans. Then you can turn the bars into it to maintain your balance, and that's when turning happens. How you initiate that lean can happen in a number of ways! Countersteering lets you move the tires under the center of gravity, which is always quicker than physically moving the entire center of gravity. Saying that it's the only possible way to lean a bike is just showing that one has never had an unruly passenger, nor rode in a stiff, gusty crosswind. Or had a bike tip over in the garage even, the forces don't actually change because you're not moving, but the effect does.
Countersteer HARD at no speed, and very little happens. The front might move a pinch, just due to trail. Now have someone kick the bike from the side, and you'll fall over. That's a leaning effect, the center of gravity is being directly moved. Park the same bike on a mild slope with some sand on it, and have someone kick the tires near the ground, sideways. The bike will fall over (and hopefully break the prick's legs!), but that's an example of moving the contact patch so that it's not under the center of gravity, just as countersteering does. If you want the same effect while moving, give it a great big fistful of gas on cold tires, and the contact patch in the back will jump sideways a good bit... same effect, just at the other end.
It's the same with using the front vs the rear brake, or using engine braking, or using the clutch to slip the tire (either direction), or using various types of oil. Different tools for different situations. They're all viable, but some are much better than others depending on the situation.
In a panic, when you've come in too hot or have a midcorner obstruction, the best thing is usually just controlling your vision, and looking at the line you want. Do that, and probably 90% of the rest falls into place.
(popcorn)
Quote from: andyb on March 02, 2012, 04:06:54 PM
Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?
It is not binary, I get this. I simply said that the bulk of the steering comes from counter steering.
Yup.. it's winter.. people stuck in the house.. can't get out and ride.. so the flame wars begin..
:bad:
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 02, 2012, 04:26:21 PM
Quote from: andyb on March 02, 2012, 04:06:54 PM
Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?
It is not binary, I get this. I simply said that the bulk of the steering comes from counter steering.
The bulk of the steering comes from counter steering. Sure Dan, that is why every qualified racer never uses any of his body to steer the bike through a turn, it is simply a waste of time and energy. Brilliant theory. Bravo.
No Dan, every one knows that steering a motorcycle requires multiple inputs of which counter steering is one. If you are wrenching on the bars to get turned you are not doing this steering thing very well. And, being tight on the bars in a turn with over reliance on counter steering is a sign of someone who does not get it and will never be smooth.
Quote from: andyb on March 02, 2012, 04:06:54 PM
Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?
What matters is if the bike leans. Then you can turn the bars into it to maintain your balance, and that's when turning happens. How you initiate that lean can happen in a number of ways! Countersteering lets you move the tires under the center of gravity, which is always quicker than physically moving the entire center of gravity. Saying that it's the only possible way to lean a bike is just showing that one has never had an unruly passenger, nor rode in a stiff, gusty crosswind. Or had a bike tip over in the garage even, the forces don't actually change because you're not moving, but the effect does.
Countersteer HARD at no speed, and very little happens. The front might move a pinch, just due to trail. Now have someone kick the bike from the side, and you'll fall over. That's a leaning effect, the center of gravity is being directly moved. Park the same bike on a mild slope with some sand on it, and have someone kick the tires near the ground, sideways. The bike will fall over (and hopefully break the prick's legs!), but that's an example of moving the contact patch so that it's not under the center of gravity, just as countersteering does. If you want the same effect while moving, give it a great big fistful of gas on cold tires, and the contact patch in the back will jump sideways a good bit... same effect, just at the other end.
It's the same with using the front vs the rear brake, or using engine braking, or using the clutch to slip the tire (either direction), or using various types of oil. Different tools for different situations. They're all viable, but some are much better than others depending on the situation.
In a panic, when you've come in too hot or have a midcorner obstruction, the best thing is usually just controlling your vision, and looking at the line you want. Do that, and probably 90% of the rest falls into place.
+1 on this analysis
I know i am new and only have been riding since July but in training class that was taught by CHP instructors was counter steering is the best way for cornering this link i think explains it the best. even the veterans in the course said they did it and did not realize that this is what they were doing. hope this helps if not sorry for my 2 cents
How To Ride A Motorcycle - Countersteering And Turning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVa2Ax-Dins#)
Quote from: winddancer on March 02, 2012, 05:01:49 PM
I know i am new and only have been riding since July but in training class that was taught by CHP instructors was counter steering is the best way for cornering this link i think explains it the best. even the veterans in the course said they did it and did not realize that this is what they were doing. hope this helps if not sorry for my 2 cents
Don't apologize, your input is every bit as welcome and valuable as others. Your CHP instructors, and the the folks in the link I posted, and most rational people in the civilized word are all in agreement; counter steering contributes principally, -but not exclusively, (best olive branch I can offer Terry) to changing the direction of a motorcycle at speeds in excess of +/- 20mph.
I believe the link I posted talks about at length, if not proves, fairly conclusively that the dominant input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.
If it were not, then everyone who rode that No BS motorcycle, or at least
someone, would have been able to steer it with the fixed bars. Fact is
no one could, not even an ex racer/ current instructor or a motorcycle magazine editor. The conclusion to draw from this is clear: the dominant input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.
For clarity, I do believe that to turn smoothly, and especially at race speeds, the rider's body must move around on the bike through the corners. weighting the inside peg, dropping the inside shoulder, and dropping a but cheek off the seat seems to add stability, and yes, smoothness to turns. In fact I regularly do these things (never said I didn't).
However I am under no illusions, my original, unwavering point remains, doing all of these so called, "body steering techniques" without counter steering, will categorically NOT be effective at turning a motorcycle. Whereas doing none of them and only counter steering, WILL change the direction of the motorcycle, if not smoothly, effectively.
The conclusion to draw from this is clear: the
dominant (but not only!) input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.
I know Terry will not be able to leave this alone, it's personal for him it seems, but I'm going to do my best to leave this alone from here. My point has been made many times, and I believe most folks, would agree with me. That is enough.
Dan
Dan is absolutely correct and anyone who disagrees is , well, deluded.
They need to go to somewhere like California Superbike School and take it up with the experts.
Quote from: craigo on March 02, 2012, 02:47:30 PM
Quote from: terryk on March 02, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.
OK Terry,
First off, I have to say that you put the 1st shot across Dan's bow on this. It was you who attacked him first. No one was talking to you about this and Dan's advise was valid. So why this attack on Dan out of you?
I have watched you 2 spar over the debt, how we American's should be taxed and what the liberal media has "spewed" upon us, and I do not agree with you on any of your points.
And now, without anyone saying anything to you personally attack Dan on the issue of riding skills. To say Dan has personally "attacked" you, is way over the line.
I know there is no use arguing with you about my personal feelings about how the government should be run as you are so lost in the liberal spin, it's not even worth it. I could go on, but as from the first sentence, what's the point.
Good day,
CraigO
Right on, Craig!! Terry is a little full of himself, and likes to talk out his ass sometimes...... especially on this subject.
Im a small fellow, say around 80kg on a heavy day... the FJ is around 260kg +/- fuel weight and sometimes pillion
Even taking into consideration the engineering physics of my weight on the pegs (positioned below and behind the centre of gravity of the bike), how the hell am I supposed to really affect the movement of the bike considering centripital forces of the moving wheels???
Experientially, my weight on the pegs does sweet bugger all, and even less when compared to counter steering
Body positioning has a much bigger affect on the bike than weighting on the pegs, tho putting weight on the pegs allows for easier body position changes (using leg muscles rather than arms to move about), using my knees to grip make it much easier to keep my upper body weight off the handlebars and position my body correctly (allowing for better control of the counter steer)
Leaning the body really doesnt steer the bike much at all... but what body positioning does is changes the physics of the downward and sideward forces of the bike (tyres) onto the road, by moving the combined centre of gravity of the bike and rider; this is why the superbike racers body shift (to corner faster, not to steer). However just getting into the knee down position on the bike wont steer it very efficiently around a corner (if at all) - if you think it does then you might need to realise that moving sideways will pull your opposing hand back on the handle bars (which is counter steering!).
The only way to get the bike into a position where the knee down body position makes a difference is by using the counter steer method to turn in.
It takes a lot of technique(s) to control a motorcycle, but at the top of the list is definitely counter steering.
I cant believe that this is being discussed (argued) on a forum of mostly experienced riders.
(Unless it was being discussed (not argued) for the benefit of inexperienced riders)
I cant believe an experienced rider would undervalue the effect of counter steering!
Quote from: Tengu on March 02, 2012, 10:12:57 PM
Leaning the body really doesnt steer the bike much at all... but what body positioning does is changes the physics of the downward and sideward forces of the bike (tyres) onto the road, by moving the combined centre of gravity of the bike and rider; this is why the superbike racers body shift (to corner faster, not to steer). However just getting into the knee down position on the bike wont steer it very efficiently around a corner (if at all) - if you think it does then you might need to realise that moving sideways will pull your opposing hand back on the handle bars (which is counter steering!).
The only way to get the bike into a position where the knee down body position makes a difference is by using the counter steer method to turn in.
Just to clarify one thing: leaning/hanging off the bike - knee down, etc. accomplishes one thing only - it allows you to keep the bike further upright than if you didn't - allowing you to take the corner faster before you run out of tire/grip. It is about speed. That is all.
Quote from: Marsh White on March 02, 2012, 10:28:43 PM
Just to clarify one thing: leaning/hanging off the bike - knee down, etc. accomplishes one thing only - it allows you to keep the bike further upright than if you didn't - allowing you to take the corner faster before you run out of tire/grip. It is about speed. That is all.
Good point, maybe a street vs track thing. On the track 100%+ is needed to win, street, you need some slop to deal with the less than predictable crap that happens. I agree that moving your body weight helps the bike while leaned over. I also have saved my own ass more than once by remembering to counter steer (front brakes in effect) when entering a corner way too hot for comfort and not losing it. Use your body, use your brakes, counter steer, pray to you almighty, it helps in some fashion.
Quote from: Tengu on March 02, 2012, 10:12:57 PM
I cant believe that this is being discussed (argued) on a forum of mostly experienced riders.
Not too many people arguing against that I see, just one particularly windy one for the most part... :mocking:
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 02, 2012, 10:45:02 PM
I also have saved my own ass more than once by remembering to counter steer (front brakes in effect) when entering a corner way too hot for comfort and not losing it. Use your body, use your brakes, counter steer, pray to you almighty, it helps in some fashion.
Best to get the front braking out of the way before the turn-in. Doing both at the same time is a good way to end up on the deck. Use the rear brake, sparingly. :pardon:
Quote from: Tengu on March 02, 2012, 10:12:57 PM
Im a small fellow, say around 80kg on a heavy day...
Seems every day for me is a "heavy" day. :rofl:
I feel like a civilian having accidentally entered a war zone :bomb:
Quote from: Marsh White on March 02, 2012, 10:28:43 PM
Just to clarify one thing: leaning/hanging off the bike - knee down, etc. accomplishes one thing only - it allows you to keep the bike further upright than if you didn't - allowing you to take the corner faster before you run out of tire/grip. It is about speed. That is all.
Marsh, thank you for making it clearer - that's exactly what I meant
Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 02, 2012, 06:53:46 PM
Quote from: winddancer on March 02, 2012, 05:01:49 PM
I know i am new and only have been riding since July but in training class that was taught by CHP instructors was counter steering is the best way for cornering this link i think explains it the best. even the veterans in the course said they did it and did not realize that this is what they were doing. hope this helps if not sorry for my 2 cents
Don't apologize, your input is every bit as welcome and valuable as others. Your CHP instructors, and the the folks in the link I posted, and most rational people in the civilized word are all in agreement; counter steering contributes principally, -but not exclusively, (best olive branch I can offer Terry) to changing the direction of a motorcycle at speeds in excess of +/- 20mph.
I believe the link I posted talks about at length, if not proves, fairly conclusively that the dominant input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.
If it were not, then everyone who rode that No BS motorcycle, or at least someone, would have been able to steer it with the fixed bars. Fact is no one could, not even an ex racer/ current instructor or a motorcycle magazine editor. The conclusion to draw from this is clear: the dominant input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.
For clarity, I do believe that to turn smoothly, and especially at race speeds, the rider's body must move around on the bike through the corners. weighting the inside peg, dropping the inside shoulder, and dropping a but cheek off the seat seems to add stability, and yes, smoothness to turns. In fact I regularly do these things (never said I didn't).
However I am under no illusions, my original, unwavering point remains, doing all of these so called, "body steering techniques" without counter steering, will categorically NOT be effective at turning a motorcycle. Whereas doing none of them and only counter steering, WILL change the direction of the motorcycle, if not smoothly, effectively.
The conclusion to draw from this is clear: the dominant (but not only!) input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.
I know Terry will not be able to leave this alone, it's personal for him it seems, but I'm going to do my best to leave this alone from here. My point has been made many times, and I believe most folks, would agree with me. That is enough.
Dan
Ok, here is the reveal. I just decided to reach out and mess with Dan a bit because......Dan is a retard and has gone out of his way to be offensive to me before and call me names. I cried as I am sensitive and want the world to be better than that.
1) Dan says - I believe the link I posted talks about at length, if not
proves, fairly conclusively. Blah, blah, blatrher in a puffed up manner. Oh, that and the I am going to use 50 font move to make sure you really read my important point. What a condescending tard.
2) I would argue against anything Dan says on any given day just to have a go, because Dan appears to me to be arrogant, self appointed expert in anything in the world. So, sometimes I like to fuck with "experts" onm the world. Yeah, I know childish but true.
3) If Dan takes upo an issue he quickly wades in with personal attacks appearing to resemble toi some folks to act like a smug cunt. Now I know refering to Dan as a smug cunt isnot really factual and is having fun in a paradoy like manner in a public forum, but hey If the Taco fits.....Oh, go ahead and call me names back if you must, see if I cry again, please do not, please behave.
So, there you have it. Nothing to see here for everyone else. I was not really looking for comments from others although, although this is a forum. I did want to share a safety article. Lets move on. (popcorn)
Glad to help you sleep at night terry..
Sorry to drop the bomb :bomb:, but I think you need to leave, Terry. This website was made to have motorcycle discussion, and is not a place for such abhorrent language. :bad: Who thinks we should ban Terry from this group? :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
Have a good day. :drinks:
:bye:
Dudemonster, that ain't gonna happen. Terry's just venting. He knows that Dan is right. Terry's a good guy and so is Dan.
Now, who are you? Great first post.
:hi: Had ta ride Pillion on a mates (BMW1150) recently. (To the Phillip Island races) and realised just how great a back rest is. (esp when using a camera). So I bought her one. - Most were too expensive so found it cheaper ta buy another FJ with one fitted already. .............I explained (and she believed) that I got it cheap because of some fault in the front end where the PO accidently installed the forks upside down. :diablo:.....Anyhow I was explaining the knowledge I had gained from the forum about countersteering when she stopped me in mid conversation with the realisation that she`s ahead of the rest on left handers and that all my expletives were worthy of an apology. ..............Ya see, she likes to keep an eye on the oncoming traffic (which of course is on the Right hand side over here) and she has always found it difficult to see when I`m leaning inta a lefthander, soooo......she just leans out further ....which of course is countersteering :dash1: ..... We make a great team. :mocking:
Quote from: dudemonster on March 03, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
Sorry to drop the bomb :bomb:, but I think you need to leave, Terry. This website was made to have motorcycle discussion, and is not a place for such abhorrent language. :bad: Who thinks we should ban Terry from this group? :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
Have a good day. :drinks:
:bye:
Why do you just ban yourself whoever you are.
Go away and never return.
Or, come back the language is within site rules bucko. Go mind your own fucking business.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 03, 2012, 01:11:15 PM
Dudemonster, that ain't gonna happen. Terry's just venting. He knows that Dan is right. Terry's a good guy and so is Dan.
Now, who are you? Great first post.
Thanks Pat.
Quote from: terryk on March 03, 2012, 01:53:36 PM
Quote from: dudemonster on March 03, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
Sorry to drop the bomb :bomb:, but I think you need to leave, Terry. This website was made to have motorcycle discussion, and is not a place for such abhorrent language. :bad: Who thinks we should ban Terry from this group? :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
Have a good day. :drinks:
:bye:
Why do you just ban yourself whoever you are.
Go away and never return.
Or, come back the language is within site rules bucko. Go mind your own fucking business.
Terry - you are correct - the language is within site rules - but being a complete immature dickhead and asshole will only be tolerated for so long... I don't personally know you - but you have been coming across as pretty juvenile with a HUGE chip on your shoulder lately...
Thank You, I thought it was a great first post too. :yes: Well since I don't like to give out too much information, I will just say that I'm a 6 foot 3 inch 160 pound 15 year old human garbage disposal; who also likes motorcycles.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 03, 2012, 01:11:15 PM
Dudemonster, that ain't gonna happen. Terry's just venting. He knows that Dan is right. Terry's a good guy and so is Dan.
Now, who are you? Great first post.
Damn! I step away from the keyboard and miss another humdinger of a first post. I might loose my ranking as first post moderator.
15 years old.
That's speaks for itself!
Go Terry!
Ya shit stirring bastarard, good onya.
Quote from: The General on March 03, 2012, 01:30:39 PM
Had ta ride Pillion on a mates (BMW1150) recently. (To the Phillip Island races) and realised just how great a back rest is. (esp when using a camera). So I bought her one. - Most were too expensive so found it cheaper ta buy another FJ with one fitted already. .............I explained (and she believed) that I got it cheap because of some fault in the front end where the PO occidentally installed the forks upside down. Anyhow I was explaining the knowledge I had gained from the forum about countersteering when she stopped me in mid conversation with the realisation that she`s ahead of the rest on left handers and that all my expletives were worthy of an apology. ..............Ya see, she likes to keep an eye on the oncoming traffic (which of course is on the Right hand side over here) and she has always found it difficult to see when I`m leaning inta a lefthander, soooo......she just leans out further ....which of course is countersteering ..... We make a great team.
Leaning is leaning, nothing to do with countersteering.
See Keith Codes "No BS BIKE" (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)
Countersteering is pushing on the bars in the opposite direction to the way you want to go.
You want to turn left?
You push your left handle bar.
Best bit of shit stirring I've seen for ages, didn't realise terry was stralin :rofl: , dont we actually counter steer 90% of the time
Quote from: Marsh White on March 03, 2012, 02:00:17 PM
Terry - you are correct - the language is within site rules - but being a complete immature dickhead and asshole will only be tolerated for so long... I don't personally know you - but you have been coming across as pretty juvenile with a HUGE chip on your shoulder lately...
(popcorn) :boredom: lately?
Quote from: andyb on March 02, 2012, 04:06:54 PM
Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?
What matters is if the bike leans. Then you can turn the bars into it to maintain your balance, and that's when turning happens. How you initiate that lean can happen in a number of ways! Countersteering lets you move the tires under the center of gravity, which is always quicker than physically moving the entire center of gravity. Saying that it's the only possible way to lean a bike is just showing that one has never had an unruly passenger, nor rode in a stiff, gusty crosswind. Or had a bike tip over in the garage even, the forces don't actually change because you're not moving, but the effect does.
Countersteer HARD at no speed, and very little happens. The front might move a pinch, just due to trail. Now have someone kick the bike from the side, and you'll fall over. That's a leaning effect, the center of gravity is being directly moved. Park the same bike on a mild slope with some sand on it, and have someone kick the tires near the ground, sideways. The bike will fall over (and hopefully break the prick's legs!), but that's an example of moving the contact patch so that it's not under the center of gravity, just as countersteering does. If you want the same effect while moving, give it a great big fistful of gas on cold tires, and the contact patch in the back will jump sideways a good bit... same effect, just at the other end.
It's the same with using the front vs the rear brake, or using engine braking, or using the clutch to slip the tire (either direction), or using various types of oil. Different tools for different situations. They're all viable, but some are much better than others depending on the situation.
In a panic, when you've come in too hot or have a midcorner obstruction, the best thing is usually just controlling your vision, and looking at the line you want. Do that, and probably 90% of the rest falls into place.
Andy,
You're spot on! It's all about the basics: 1. Look where you want to go because where you look is where you are going to go (whether you like it or not), and this is true for motorcycling, snowboarding, and life in general. 2. Choose an appropriate entry speed – if you don't know the curve or if it is a blind curve, err on the side of caution. 3. A motorcycle turns at speed by leaning. To initiate the lean, push (smoothly and progressively) on the inside bar – push right to go right, push left to go left. 4. Keep your hands on the grips and your wrists (especially the right wrist) in a flat or "broken" position so you don't make any sudden inputs to the throttle. 5. Lean with the motorcycle while keeping your head level with the horizon. 6. Did I mention to look where you want to go? We could get into rolling on the throttle but that's in the next lesson. I don't claim to be an expert, just a CSC (Canada Safety Council) certified motorcycle training instructor (for the past 10 years). If there's one thing you can't stress enough when it comes to motorcycle riding it's all about being smooooth!
And yes, I thought the article in Sport Rider was good one. Not sure what all the fuss is about!
Quote from: Klavdy on March 03, 2012, 03:57:18 PM
Quote from: The General on March 03, 2012, 01:30:39 PM
............Ya see, she likes to keep an eye on the oncoming traffic (which of course is on the Right hand side over here) and she has always found it difficult to see when I`m leaning inta a lefthander, soooo......she just leans out further ....which of course is countersteering ..... We make a great team.
Leaning is leaning, nothing to do with countersteering.
See Keith Codes "No BS BIKE" (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)
Countersteering is pushing on the bars in the opposite direction to the way you want to go.
You want to turn left?
You push your left handle bar.
Ahhhh... so if she`s leaning right when I`m leaning left it`s not countersteering it`s counterleaning....Got it. - except when she`s got my left handle bar and pushing - then it`s countersteering. Ummmm.... so if she counterleans of equal force to my countersteer will that make the bike go straight? or will it kinda go crab ways? (yawing?) (popcorn)
Quote from: Marsh White on March 03, 2012, 02:00:17 PM
but being a complete immature dickhead and asshole will only be tolerated for so long... I don't personally know you - but you have been coming across as pretty juvenile with a HUGE chip zip on your shoulder in your mid-section lately...
Marsh, are you talking about Klavdy?
Quote from: fj11.5 on March 03, 2012, 05:24:30 PM
Best bit of shit stirring I've seen for ages, didn't realise terry was stralin :rofl: , dont we actually counter steer 90% of the time
Then what are we doin the other 10% of the time?? -don`t say leaning unless ya hands are off tha handlebars - hmmmm.....how come I can steer my bike around some curves (no hands) just by weighting the footrests? counterweighting? (..........Naaaa that`s what happens at Aldi on thurs mornins)- Anyhow, I think our camber is opposite to the U.S. due to the side of the road they are usually on, so what Terry & Dan are saying is actually counter ta Aussie physics. :mail1: - I think I`ll have ta visit there one day, ta see for meself! --they got Bundy Rum over thar??
Quote from: simi_ed on March 04, 2012, 01:25:57 AM
Quote from: Marsh White on March 03, 2012, 02:00:17 PM
but being a complete immature dickhead and asshole will only be tolerated for so long... I don't personally know you - but you have been coming across as pretty juvenile with a HUGE chip zip on your shoulder in your mid-section lately...
Marsh, are you talking about Klavdy?
Don't be silly, I don't got no steenkin chips.
Other 10% is spent in straight lines on the highway heading for the good roads , :rofl2: hope they have bundy over there because the beer is below standard (popcorn), not that I mind :morning1:
Quote from: The General on March 04, 2012, 02:23:12 AM
Then what are we doin the other 10% of the time?? -don`t say leaning unless ya hands are off tha handlebars - hmmmm.....how come I can steer my bike around some curves (no hands) just by weighting the footrests? counterweighting?
No, you're actually getting the bike to counter steer on its own. You can get it to lean with your body, but if you're at speed, the lean will force the bars to a counter steering position automatically. If you're going slow enough, the bars will just flop over, but you'll be headed for the ground by that time.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 04, 2012, 11:26:02 AM
Quote from: The General on March 04, 2012, 02:23:12 AM
Then what are we doin the other 10% of the time?? -don`t say leaning unless ya hands are off tha handlebars - hmmmm.....how come I can steer my bike around some curves (no hands) just by weighting the footrests? counterweighting?
No, you're actually getting the bike to counter steer on its own. You can get it to lean with your body, but if you're at speed, the lean will force the bars to a counter steering position automatically. If you're going slow enough, the bars will just flop over, but you'll be headed for the ground by that time.
DavidR.
Well stated David R. And correct. Yesterday to prove this to myself, again, I consciously initiated my turns using lean and lower body. This force the tire to offset inducing the counter steer. Not intuitive but it is the physics.
Well stated David R. And correct. Yesterday to prove this to myself, again, I consciously initiated my turns using lean and lower body. This force the tire to offset inducing the counter steer. Not intuitive but it is the physics.
[/quote]
Of course, you are correct. (I luv this site) However, from this whole enjoyable thread i particularly wish to bring attention to item 6 from zwartie for a true "two cents" worth - but I`ll reply correctly cause that fluffy is a mean lookin bastard.
You can initiate a turn without any countersteering effect at all. All that has to happen is the center of gravity has to move to the inside of the contact patches. Countersteering just accomplishes this very efficently, by moving the contact patches, rather than trying to shove a few hundred pounds around.
The word physics has been thrown around a bit , try this, take the front wheel out of a decent sized push bike, hold the wheel verticle by the axle, have someone spin it, now try and lean the wheel, bet you find it difficult, now counter steer the wheel, leans over much easier , basic physics
Quote from: Lotsokids on March 02, 2012, 02:00:18 PM
We can't talk about this stuff too much. It's a good reminder.
I totally agree.
My son and I have some very good talks about "HOW" to ride a bike.
With a better understanding of how your bike will respond to YOUR inputs, can only have a positive affect on your overall riding ability.
Topics like this are the reason that makes this site great!
I can't imagine that on any H-D site, that they would be discussing the merits of a bikes handling and how to put it to practice.
I'd suspect that they would be more concerned about hanging the latest and greatest chrome do-dad off their HOGs, or how to make that tractor sound even louder, for no particular reason. :biggrin:
Leon
Quote from: Zwartie on March 03, 2012, 10:15:19 PM
6. Did I mention to look where you want to go? We could get into rolling on the throttle .......
Yeah totally agree, but as a bloke said ta me once "when is a communication a `communication` - when it`s given? or when it`s received? - Got me arm twisted ta do a safety course from a good mate once. (done more since) He said even though I`m a smart arse and think I`m shit hot, he guaranteed I`d get somethin, even if it`s ever so small - out of it.
...........Well I (reluctantly) did the full Mick Doohan day (On the Gold Coast - cheaper than the great EMBROIDERED Polo shirt ya get) It involved videos, lectures, pract demos & everyone got a turn at leadin the pack thru some awesome twisties with coaches judging your every move. They couldn`t find any fault with me, and they hadn`t noticed my poor vision. (When I`m so far up meself I have trouble seeing) - I had earlier dragged a coach aside to discuss personally this 'lookin where ya goin' instruction. (Cause shit, what dickhead doesn`t?) As a result of the conversation he bought the subject up in more detail (though only with me ??) - and here is the communication I heard, then during a bored moment on tha road, I thought I`d give it a go.
"Focus on the point where the left hand side of tha road meets tha right hand side on every bend"
It`s a little pinpoint of bitumen that i thought I already watched, naturally when ridin. Nope.. on some bends I had to look up unnaturally and really needed to adjust me helmet cause on some it got in tha way. The diference it majically made to my line was incredible and surprising. (kinda like countersteering cause it pushed my bike more ta the centre of the lane without me thinkin) I was able ta go a hell of a lot faster (suspect that wasn`t tha intention of the safety course) and when me mate grilled me next day about the course, I naturally told im I got nuthin out of it! - but I did buy a new helmet that month!!
Quote from: Lotsokids on March 02, 2012, 02:00:18 PM
Quote from: Mark Olson on March 02, 2012, 12:31:26 PM
the part in the article that is most important is no abrupt inputs , don't chop throttle or grab a handful of brake, keep the bike settled thru corners .
I think most of us already know this.
That's right. Also not too much acceleration (if any) in the corners. That brings a lot of people down, including myself. As a former sportbike instructor, the most important things we taught were:
1. Suspension setup (half the day!)
2. C.G. (Center of Gravity) - Prep for the corners and GET OFF THE SEAT and get that C.G down and inside the corner.
3. Looking through the corner
4. Throttle control
We can't talk about this stuff too much. It's a good reminder.
Here's an on-bike video of my instructor:
http://www.dskuhn.com/oleben.wmv (http://www.dskuhn.com/oleben.wmv)
That's waht I was talking about... Great video... Love the feeling when you come hard out of a corner, especially when you sky the front wheel while still sideways. of course, about the time the rear tire slides is when most guys are ready to bail... And, if you panic, you get to, whether or not you want to!
Quote from: Marsh White on March 02, 2012, 10:28:43 PM
Quote from: Tengu on March 02, 2012, 10:12:57 PM
Leaning the body really doesnt steer the bike much at all... but what body positioning does is changes the physics of the downward and sideward forces of the bike (tyres) onto the road, by moving the combined centre of gravity of the bike and rider; this is why the superbike racers body shift (to corner faster, not to steer). However just getting into the knee down position on the bike wont steer it very efficiently around a corner (if at all) - if you think it does then you might need to realise that moving sideways will pull your opposing hand back on the handle bars (which is counter steering!).
The only way to get the bike into a position where the knee down body position makes a difference is by using the counter steer method to turn in.
Just to clarify one thing: leaning/hanging off the bike - knee down, etc. accomplishes one thing only - it allows you to keep the bike further upright than if you didn't - allowing you to take the corner faster before you run out of tire/grip. It is about speed. That is all.
And, this is not a "basic" conversation about tip-in steering, which is what "countersteering" is. Like downhill skiing, one must initiate a "fall" before counter forces take effect and the physics of a turn work in the rider's favor. That is what countersteering does -- initiate a fall by "tipping" the bike so as to begin lean. the more it is countersteered the more it tips, the faster it generates lean, the faster the corner can be handled.
BUT...
In "emergency cornering," coming in too hot, etc., one needs to be able to handle the maxium level of speed, which requires the maximum level of lowering center of gravity, which is why one shifts weight, steers with the body, etc.