Hi!
I have a problem with the new rotors I purchased a while ago and was wonder if anyone else has seen this kind of problem or can confirm what the problem really is.
I have a 1989 FJ1200W (36,000 miles) that has been in storage for 12 years. This last summer and fall, I have been rebuilding the bike and one of the new items I needed were rotors. I bought some rotors off of Ebay. The reviews were favorable and I believe other FJ'ers have used them successfully. The new rotors are slightly larger than the stock ones. The new rotors measure 300mm in diameter and are 5mm thick. The stock rotors are 298mm in diameter and only 4mm thick. Install was easy. Since everything was apart, I had the forks redone (new oil, seals and bushings). The wheel bearings looked good, so I left them alone. I put everything back together and noticed that the rotor is rubbing aginst the inside of the caliper. Both rotors are rubbing the calipers in the same spot. It's like the down tubes have been twisted in just a little so that the one edge of the caliper hits the rotor. I installed a new axle and also found that the right fork is slightly bent. The left fork looks perfectly straight. But no matter how much I rotate the fork, the rotor still rubs aginst the caliper. There's no warps in the rotor and they look perfectly straight when spun (no wobble). If I fix the front fork, will that also fix the problem and perfectly center the rotor in the caliper? Can anyone confirm that their rotors are perfectly centered? Are the calipers slightly twisted in as stock? I never noticed this with the old rotors, because the smaller and thinner rotors gave enough clearance to not rub, but that doesn't mean that they were perfectly centered. I never check the old rotors and I do not have them anymore.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Scotty
Here are some pics of the problem:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737545329/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737545329/#)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737545591/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737545591/#)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737547059/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737547059/#)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737549597/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737549597/#)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737548303/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6737548303/#)
I don't have any experience with the rotors you mention -- but just a thought and really don't know if it is feasible -- can you file down the calipers where the rotors hit
stevecc
I filed down one of the calipers just a little bit and it helped, but didn't eliminate the problem. I know I could file it down some more with a dremel to keep the rotors from rubbing. My main concern is if the rotors are suppose to be perfectly centered in the calipers. If not perfectly centered, it may take longer for the new brake pads to eventually wear down enough to give full contact with the rotor.
Scotty
Hi Scott
I'm no expert and probably totally off the mark :blush:....I'm sure some fj guru's will chime in... :good: but my thoughts none the less :scratch_one-s_head:
Firstly having a bent fork leg, besides probably being dangerous, is going to ware things out IE bearings/slides/seals etc.I would plan on replacing it asap.
If one fork leg is slightly bent I would guess that the whole geometry of the caliper/ rotor /wheel is going to be affected and may change as the fork lowers slide up and down depending on the orientation of the bend in the fork leg.Also the over all length of the bent fork leg will be slightly less than the straight one.I would try orientating the bend either forward or rearwards in line with the wheel.I would remove the fender/mudguard and fork brace, loosen the triple tree clamps and try to manipulate the wheel while watching the rotor's position in relation to the caliper's.If they move to a more favourable position tighten the triple tree clamps.Again this is probably rubbish advice...wait for a guru!...but I hope this helps.
Cheers and good luck! :drinks:
Jeff P
I rotated the fork several times and found the location with the least amount of rubbing. I guess I'll have to get the fork fixed first and then see if the problem is still there. Anyone know of a place in Phoenix, AZ that and fix a slightly bent fork?
Scotty
Nevermind
Scott,
I am having trouble wrapping my head around the thought a bent for tube can cause that much of a offset in the caliper. If the right fork tube is bent then I guess it can make the axle be out of square and thus the calipers could be offset from the top to bottom.
But, with that said, the calipers will have the same issue on both sides. If the same amount of offset in the fork tube was the cause because the axle is not square and it will show in both calipers.
If you are only having an issue on the left side, then you need to look there exclusively. Did you put on new pads with the rotors, if so how was the wear characteristic of the ones you took out.
When you spin the wheel does the rotor run at the same angle of offset for the full 360*? If not, then the rotor is warped or the mounted surface is not parallel. If the rotor does not have any run-out and maintains the same distance throughout the rotation, then you need to look at the caliper mounting & caliper.
Check it out a little more and let me know, I would be interested to know if the fork tube is actually the cause of this issue.
Randy - RPM
Hi!
As I rotate the wheel with everything together, both rotors rub the same amount against their caliper, in the same spot and are at the same distances and angles in each caliper throughout the wheel's rotation. It's very symetric. At first I thought it was a slightly bent axle so that when it was tightened, it twisted each fork the same amount. The axle turned out to be barely bent, so I replaced it, to elimenate it as being the cause. When I tightened the new axle the problem was still there, only just a little less. I loosened the triple clamps and the left fork tube just about slide out by its self and the right fork slide out with just a slight twist. As I put everyting back together I rotated just the right fork in the triple clamps at 90 degree increments and saw a very slight increase between the axle hole and the wheel, maybe 3/16" at the most. It isn't much and is probably within spec, but is the only thing I can go on right now. I figured it wouldn't hurt to double check it.
I looked at the caliper mounting surfaces and they look nice and clean. I thought there might be something there also. I did give the lower tubes a good once over with some rubbing compound and then with some car wax using an orbital buffer. I stayed away from the calipers mounts with the buffer and just cleaned those by hand. I never noticed anything abnormal. But I'm still not ruleing those out.
The old rotors where really thin and the old brake pads seemed to have an even amount of wear on them. But since they were a hair smaller in diameter and thinner than these new ones, they never rubbed against the calipers. So I never thought to check if the old rotors were perfectly centered in the calipers or slightly offset like I am seeing with these. I have already thrown away the old rotors and brake pads so I can't go back and double check. :dash2: Lesson learned: Never throw anything away until its done.
I'm confused too. :scratch_one-s_head: It's exacly the same problem on each capiler. The caliper mounting surfaces also look good and the bolts tighten up nice and don't appear to be bent. That's why I was wondering if the slight angle of the caliper was designed that way and it works perfect with the stock size rotor, but not with a slightly oversized one (by 1mm in radius and 1mm in thickness). I would hate to have to buy new, stock size rotors as they are very expensive and I can't return these new ones. I'll only do it as a last resort.
The only thing I haven't thought about yet is the triple clamp, but I don't see how that would cause this kind of problem. I am also starting to think that it might be in the wheel bearings or spacers. I'll have to have the wheel bearings and seals replaced to know for sure. I wouldn't think it would be those, though, because as many times as I've installed the wheel, it's never installed in exactly the same position and the problem is still there. But, I could be wrong.
Good news is....most everything else is brand new and good to go. :good2: And I'm really starting to like useing these smilely face things.
Scotty
ok , so it sounds like the rotors are dragging the entire time you rotate the wheel. correct ? from the pics they are dragging with no pads in them .correct?
the rotors are larger so you need to upgrade to the blue-pot or gold -pot calipers from a r-6 or r-1 , the ones that are not radial mount.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-2006-YZF600-R6-FRONT-BRAKE-CALIPERS-w-LINES-/110812621497?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item19ccf26ab9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-2006-YZF600-R6-FRONT-BRAKE-CALIPERS-w-LINES-/110812621497?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item19ccf26ab9)
Hi!
The rubbing is along the entire edge of both rotors and drag the entire time you rotate the tire. They drag against the inside of the caliper without the pads being installed. Earlier this month, I installed new pads and rode the bike for no more than 30 miles so I could register the bike with the DMV and get the emissions test. The pad wear on the new pads is not evenly across the entire pad, lilke I would expect and the braking feels really diminished. I think the uneven pad wear is due to the non centerness of the calipers over the rotor.
Thank you for the ebay link. I'm really temped to buy those to try them out. The only thing that worries me is if after I bolt them on, they too are not centered over the rotor. I guess I could buy the used calipers, test fit, and if not centered, put them back up on Ebay. :biggrin:
Scott
Are all the (correct) wheel spacers present?
All the wheel spacers look to be present. I'm not positive that they are correct because they are not brand new, but from what I see in the wheel and in the schematic, they look to all be there. I would have to have everything pressed out of the wheel and then measured to be sure. Where can I find the measurements for the individual wheel pieces?
Scott
Quote from: scott_1200 on January 23, 2012, 07:55:07 AM
Thank you for the ebay link. I'm really temped to buy those to try them out. The only thing that worries me is if after I bolt them on, they too are not centered over the rotor. I guess I could buy the used calipers, test fit, and if not centered, put them back up on Ebay. :biggrin:
Scott
Scott,
If you buy these calipers, you will want to keep them and ditch the OEM ones. Add a 14mm master to them and you will have far better brakes than what you have now, even when your rubbing rotor issue is resolved.
And these are at a really nice price. I paid over $50 for my set.
CraigO
I'm running the stock wheel size and forks. Are those calipers bolt on replacements? Will they work for the 300mm rotor? Sorry for all the questions and getting a bit off track from the topic.
Scott
I found a shop in the Phoenix, AZ area that can check and (if bent) straighten the forks and triple clamps. I am going to take off the triple clamps and have everything checked this week. I'll report back with the results. I'll also order those calipers on Ebay if they are still available when I get home.
:biggrin:
Scott
Hopefully you have not taken it all apart yet.
Can you make sure the fork are the same installed height in the triple trees? If one fork is higher than the other then you will have an offset and the rotor will be rubbing the calipers.
When you say everything is symmetrical are the rotors both off set to the same side, the outside? Or is one to the outside and the other to the inside?
Randy - RPM
I don't have the triple clamps off yet. I'll try adjusting the height of only one of the forks, like you suggest. I would have never thought of that. Thank You! :good2: I'll make the adjustments in 0.5mm increments. I have been using the top lip of the handlebars to set the height of the forks. I have been setting the bottom of the fork cap (the screw-on one) even with top of the handlebar clamp.
Scott
Both calipers are twisted inward towards the tire. Its the outside edge of each rotor that is rubbing against the caliper.
Scott
Quote from: scott_1200 on January 23, 2012, 12:50:16 PM
I have been setting the bottom of the fork cap (the screw-on one) even with top of the handlebar clamp.
Scott
The handle bar clamps are cast and are close as far as being the same height, but I would remove the clamps and measure from the machined surface of the upper triple tree.
Quote from: scott_1200 on January 23, 2012, 01:17:47 PM
Both calipers are twisted inward towards the tire. Its the outside edge of each rotor that is rubbing against the caliper.
Scott
That tells me the offset & thickness of the new rotors has exaggerated the issue since the are both canted inward at the top.
If they were in on the left and out on the right then that would be the fork height. Then next step before you tear everything down is to confirm everything is square and the same height, then compare the mounting tabs compared to the rotor and see if they are parallel.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: scott_1200 on January 23, 2012, 10:45:26 AM
I'm running the stock wheel size and forks. Are those calipers bolt on replacements? Will they work for the 300mm rotor? Sorry for all the questions and getting a bit off track from the topic.
Scott
Scott ,
the link I gave you is a direct replacement bolt on and go part. even the pads interchange. since your forks are 89 or later.
that is a good price on the calipers , pull the trigger. you are just gonna buy them later anyway. :pardon:
sounds like you are just rubbing cause of the bigger rotors.
The calipers are a mod most of us have already done . If you look in the gallery check out the front wheels and calipers.
If you don't like the blue ones you can find gold ones to match what you have.
Adding a 14mm master cylinder helps with the feel. fjr1300 or R-1 .
When I get home today, I'll put it all back together again and do checks suggested and post back. I'll also order those calipers!
For the brake master cylinder, I am using an aftermarket Nissin setup with the urine cup setup. I'll post some pics of the setup.
Scott
Quote from: scott_1200 on January 23, 2012, 10:45:26 AM
I'm running the stock wheel size and forks. Are those calipers bolt on replacements? Will they work for the 300mm rotor? Sorry for all the questions and getting a bit off track from the topic.
Scott
Yes, they are bolt on replacements. And I do not know if they will work w/ the 300mm rotors. It really sounds like you have more going on there than just the 10mm difference in size. That offset is a strange problem you have there.
CraigO
Got home and made some progress. I put everything back together and was very careful to get the forks at exactly the same height above the triple clamp (see http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751842085/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751842085/#)) and then put the wheel back on and tightened the axle. I took several measurements from the caliper mounting holes on the fork tubes on each side (see http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751842549/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751842549/#)). I also checked for any warps in the rotor by giving it a spin (see http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751842311/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751842311/#)). No warps found.
I then mounted the right caliper (same side as the slightly bent fork) and no more rubbing! The rotor was also pretty well centered, not perfect, but really close. :yahoo: I then mounted the left caliper (same side as the straight fork) and it's still rubbing. :cray: I am going to try to raise the left fork a little to see if the left caliper will rotate back to center. I'm just going to loosen the axle, place some wood under the wheel to support it and then loosen the left side of the triple clamp and gently slide the fork up just a little (0.5mm or less) and then tighten everything back up. I'll report back in a few.
Here's a pic of the brake master cylinder:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751941307/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751941307/#)
And a pic of me working on the bike:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751941275/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmorton/6751941275/#)
Scott
OK. I raised and lowered the left fork by a millimeter or two in both directions and then tightened everything up. No luck. The left rotor still rubs against the caliper. The right caliper did move just a hair, but it isn't rubbing against the rotor.
So I'm thinking of taking everything apart tomorrow, including the triple tree and then on Wednesday, take everything to that shop to have the bent fork fixed and to also check the triple tree alignment and have it straightened, if needed. When that is all done, I'll start all over and hopefully the calipers will center perfectly over the rotors.
Is there a thread that shows how to take out the sanction tube?
Scott
Scott,
Any of the fork rebuild threads are good. There is a picture file of the same thing available too.
You may want to replace the bushes, fork seals, and definately the fork oil as long as you have them apart.
Cheers,
Arnie
So the next step is to get the bent fork straightened. I don't know of any shops in the Phoenix, AZ area that have the tools and have torn apart these forks before. So it looks like I'll need to tear them apart myself.
I found the word document with the step by step low down to tear apart and rebuild the forks in the "Files" section. A Big THANK YOU to all who contributed to that. It doesn't look too hard, just time consuming. I'll also have to make the tools necessary to do the job. I don't have much free time so this might take me a week or two, just to build the tools and tear apart the fork. The seals and bushings are less than a month old. Should I order new ones or are the seals replaced only when you see them leak? Or do the seals have to be replaced because they have to be damaged to get the fork apart?
Scott
Hi there,
This may help you out.
http://www.devil-riders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11938 (http://www.devil-riders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11938)
Fast Track Motorcycle Frame Straightening
1734 E Main St
Mesa, AZ 85203
(480) 649-1093
Worth a shot, but the link has a rave review on these guys
CraigO
Quote from: scott_1200 on January 24, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
I found the word document with the step by step low down to tear apart and rebuild the forks in the "Files" section. A Big THANK YOU to all who contributed to that. It doesn't look too hard, just time consuming. I'll also have to make the tools necessary to do the job. I don't have much free time so this might take me a week or two, just to build the tools and tear apart the fork. The seals and bushings are less than a month old. Should I order new ones or are the seals replaced only when you see them leak? Or do the seals have to be replaced because they have to be damaged to get the fork apart?
Scott
Scott,
The only special tool you need is the 27mm hex on the end of a long shaft to hold the damper rod while you remove the allen bolt from the bottom of the fork.
Inspect the seals carefully after you have the forks apart. You may be able to get them apart without damaging the seal lips, but for the minor cost of new seals its probably not worth tearing them down AGAIN. JMO
Arnie
Hi!
I've called the Fast Track shop and they sound like they can do the job and the prices are reasonable. They need only the sanction tube, so I thought I would remove it myself to save a few bucks. I'll go ahead and use those saved bucks to get some new seals. This will be the very first time at tearing apart the forks so I might take a few days to go slow and careful. Once I get the sanction tube out, I'll take it to the Fast Track shop to get straighted and then put everything back together.
For the tools, I think I can find something to use for the larger hex bolt to remove the cap from the sanction tube. It's the smaller hex bolt thing and also building the PVC pipe thing to press in the new oil and dust seals. Easy stuff to make, I just have to get the time to get everyting and put it together. Other priorities have limited my FJ project time, but I'll eventually Get'r Done. :good2:
I am also fighting against Mod-ous Improvement-ous Syndrom (MIS). That is, the urge to modifiy the forks with cartridge emulators and new springs for improved feel and performance. Must resist....must resist......not enough time... :biggrin:
Scott
Scott,
Just wanted to warn you to remove the small Phillips head screws on the rear side of each slider before you try to break loose the hex bolt at the bottom of the leg. If the damper rod spins while you are taking it apart, you will probably be buying new locator screws. Good thing they are still available from Yamaha, DAMHIK.
Thank you for the heads up on that. I'll be sure to remove that screw before twisting on the damper rod.
Scott
Scott,
You said, "I am also fighting against Mod-ous Improvement-ous Syndrom (MIS). That is, the urge to modifiy the forks with cartridge emulators and new springs for improved feel and performance. Must resist....must resist......not enough time..."
Better advise to you is, DO NOT RESIST. This is a huge improvement and you'll be glad to have the change.
I think Randy's new cartridge emulators are (finally) ready for sale and they don't even require you to drill holes in the damper rods. He'll also get the parts to you v.quickly. note: he doesn't pay me :-)
Arnie
yeah, what Arnie said. :good2:
It's finally fixed! The actual problem was the caliper mounting tabs on the lower fork. The left fork mounting tabs were almost 1mm apart as measured from the rotor and the right side lower tab was about 0.5mm closer than the top tab. I filed and sanded down the lower mounting tab on both sides, more so on the left tab, a little at a time and keep test fitting everything. I got the right caliper to almost perfectly centered and got the left caliper (the problem side) centered enough so it didn't rub any more. I'd say about 2mm from touching. It could still use another 2mm to 3mm in the caliper to center it over the rotor, but I didn't want to press my luck. I put everything back together and went for a test ride. Much, much better. The pads are finally getting full contact with the rotor, but they still need to break in a bit more.
I never did get the forks apart and the bend was so slight, that it didn't make much of a difference compared to grinding the mounting tabs. In the end, it was the mounting tabs and not the forks.
Finally riding again! :>)
Scott
Good work!
Feels good to fix your own -eh?
Dan
Feels very good! And many thanks to Randy from RPM for the suggestion to check the caliper mounts. After talking over all the options with Randy, we decided to file back the lower mounts. The offset in the mounting tabs was always there, it's just that the larger rotors amplified the problem to where it was noticeable.
Scott