Nothing wrong with it, in fact she's been running perfectly with the exception of the occasionally flaky tach. She'll be further stripped down, each part addressed (cosmetic, replace, or upgrade) and then shelved for reassy... Randy estimates a couple months to get the engine done (1349, decided on big valves but may change that, doing some research on cams, getting the trans undercut, etc). I hope by then to have everything back together and ready for the new heart.
Winter projects are fun! Only downside is no FJ for the next couple of months.
Frank
way to get into it :good2:
more power ar ar ar .
Good deal Frank. Randy does nice work. You will love the new torque. Question: What are you gonna do for the carbs? (I'm still running the BS36's)
Some 38mm RS's flatslides would be (relatively) cheap and easy The Klein FCR's are no longer available, the cat's meeow would be the 38mm TMR roller flatslides.
With Unipods of course... Here's the Yoshsimura TMRs only $2200...gasp
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/1/49_23_02_11_8_27_49.jpeg)
Shown on a Kawa ZRX12, same carb spacing as the FJ
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 31, 2011, 11:16:33 AM
Here's the Yoshsimura TMRs only $2200...gasp
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/1/49_23_02_11_8_27_49.jpeg)
Them's beautiful alright... but I will start with my existing carbs and try to get some dyno time to help figure things out. :dash2:
Who knows where it will go from there? :wacko3:
Its a journey you know... :bye2:
Frank
Those Yoshi TMRs look speccy but how do they filter air and stop the microjets from clogging up?
Quote from: Tengu on December 31, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
Those Yoshi TMRs look speccy but how do they filter air and stop the microjets from clogging up?
I have often wondered the same thing when I see such setups. Is it simply that the risk to the motor is surrendered in lieu of performance? I gotta figure just one dust storm and the motor is toast... Unless I'm missing something.
Someone educate me, please?
Thanks,
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on January 01, 2012, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: Tengu on December 31, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
Those Yoshi TMRs look speccy but how do they filter air and stop the microjets from clogging up?
I have often wondered the same thing when I see such setups. Is it simply that the risk to the motor is surrendered in lieu of performance? I gotta figure just one dust storm and the motor is toast... Unless I'm missing something.
Someone educate me, please?
Thanks,
Dan Quote
the velocity stacks are for racebikes.... they are more concerned about maximum performance over long service life as the engines get torn down frequently anyway.
for street use i'm sure you would want to order the optional air filter adapters (like i had to for my Kehin FCR's)
I'm sure they are less than 100 bucks apiece (maybe)
KOokaloo!
Carbs?
meh.
Fuel Injection from a Yamaha XJR1300.
Go on, you know you want to.
Quote from: Klavdy on January 01, 2012, 08:06:50 PM
Carbs?
meh.
Fuel Injection from a Yamaha XJR1300.
Go on, you know you want to.
Naw, we have already talked about it. The FI from the XJR uses a dual throttle plate system and the secondary plate acts as a governor. There might be some options down the road as aftermarket parts become available, but at this point many disgruntled XJR owners regarding FI.
Randy - RPM
G'Day Randy mate, best of the season to you and yours.
So, the XJR FI is suckish.
Hmmm.
What about something like Hayabusa or R1 injection?
The parts are sure cheap enough,or has this been tried by the Legends racers already?
It is believed that Steve Conklin was messing around with FI for his big donk, dunno how far he got with it.
You would need a fair bit of Dyno and mapping time, that's for sure but it would be a neat engineering project.
Have your colleagues in the race circles successfully used FI?
Or is it not approved for racing?
Cheers.
Quote from: Klavdy on January 01, 2012, 08:06:50 PM
meh.... Fuel Injection from a Yamaha XJR1300....Go on, you know you want to.
Hey Klav, IIRC Steve looked into the XJR fuel injection and it would not fit on the FJ. The throttle body assembly has the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) on the outside left side of the assembly. This unit fit fine on the XJR which used a center backbone frame, but it would not fit on the FJ with the perimeter frame. The TPS would not clear the left side frame rail, that's why Steve and Marc came up the 'Busa throttle bodies on a custom intake manifold.
I wonder how's Steve doing? I wonder if he still has Thor?
Yes, those TMR's should be used with UniPods and not open velocity stacks...
K-man, I rode a buddy's Hayabusa a few years ago, and it was an eye opener! Of course it was fast as hell, but the throttle response & control was nowhere near as refined as my FJ, or so I thought. When my buddy demanded the 'busa back, his first comment was about how superior the "driveability" of the FJ was over his 'busa. And he had just retrieved it from the shop for tune, etc.
So, even though the pilot jets are a PITA, I'm inclined to stick with carbies, especially after shit-canning the OEM airbox. Much easier to R&R the carbs with Uni-Pods (Thanks, Randy!).
YMMV,
Ed
I was very satisfied with my 39mm Kehein FCRs - they performed well on a stock 1188 to a 1380 and 1314. Much better drivability than the Mikuni 38mm's (had issues with slides sticking at part throttle settings, making smooth throttle control impossible). The FCRs were expensive, but worth it. Don't think going double the price for the TMRs would be though...
Which is why I decided to go FI this time around (The FCRs were stolen a couple years ago - the whole trailer theft in Oklahoma thing). FI parts have come down a lot in price from several years ago, and being able to buy Marc's FI parts and tap into his experience and knowledge was a big help too. Unfortunately I've got nearly 8 months left in Afghanistan, so the project is a bit delayed right now :ireful:
Progress so far has been limited to parts gathering and planning. On Marc's advice, I went with a custom microsquirt from Interface PnP. This is the route he took for the GSXR FI on his Aprilia. There is a self tuning capability (working with a wideband O2) and Marc says the driveability is much better than the stock Aprilia FI system.
I can share what I know up to this point - but it is still a work in (suspended) progress...
...now back to your original thread still in progress... I think you'll be pleased with the horsepower gain from the 1349 even with stock carbs - but you'll be amazed with the horsepower gain from the 1349 with bigger carbs or a well sorted FI setup.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 01, 2012, 11:32:22 PM
Quote from: Klavdy on January 01, 2012, 08:06:50 PM
meh.... Fuel Injection from a Yamaha XJR1300....Go on, you know you want to.
Hey Klav, IIRC Steve looked into the XJR fuel injection and it would not fit on the FJ. The throttle body assembly has the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) on the outside left side of the assembly. This unit fit fine on the XJR which used a center backbone frame, but it would not fit on the FJ with the perimeter frame. The TPS would not clear the left side frame rail, that's why Steve and Marc came up the 'Busa throttle bodies on a custom intake manifold.
I wonder how's Steve doing? I wonder if he still has Thor?
Yes, those TMR's should be used with UniPods and not open velocity stacks...
IIRC, last I talked with Steve about FI, he sent me some video of his FJ running on Mega (or was it micro) squirt FI, but he hadn't perfected it yet. He was still using carbs to ride, just experimenting with the FI.
Wasn't someone on the board playing around with a set of FZ1 carbs?
Quote from: fj1289 on January 02, 2012, 09:29:34 AM
I was very satisfied with my 39mm Kehein FCRs - they performed well on a stock 1188 to a 1380 and 1314. ...but you'll be amazed with the horsepower gain from the 1349 with bigger carbs or a well sorted FI setup.
Randy is checking into getting the Keihins... I have a stand alone FI setup on my Datsun 240z and have had the same engine with Weber side drafts. I think well sorted carbs are a good alternative and will perform very similar to FI, although they don't get the fuel economy in my experience. And they are a bit easier to get tuned (less variables = less dyno time).
Any advice on cams from the crowd here?
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on January 02, 2012, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on January 02, 2012, 09:29:34 AM
I was very satisfied with my 39mm Kehein FCRs - they performed well on a stock 1188 to a 1380 and 1314. ...but you'll be amazed with the horsepower gain from the 1349 with bigger carbs or a well sorted FI setup.
Any advice on cams from the crowd here?
Frank
Yes, be very, very careful if the bike is for road use. It's very easy to stuff up the FJ's (or any engine for that matter) great useability with the wrong cams.
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 01, 2012, 11:32:22 PM
Quote from: Klavdy on January 01, 2012, 08:06:50 PM
meh.... Fuel Injection from a Yamaha XJR1300....Go on, you know you want to.
Hey Klav, IIRC Steve looked into the XJR fuel injection and it would not fit on the FJ. The throttle body assembly has the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) on the outside left side of the assembly. This unit fit fine on the XJR which used a center backbone frame, but it would not fit on the FJ with the perimeter frame. The TPS would not clear the left side frame rail, that's why Steve and Marc came up the 'Busa throttle bodies on a custom intake manifold.
I wonder how's Steve doing? I wonder if he still has Thor?
Yes, those TMR's should be used with UniPods and not open velocity stacks...
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 01, 2012, 08:16:49 PM
Naw, we have already talked about it. The FI from the XJR uses a dual throttle plate system and the secondary plate acts as a governor. There might be some options down the road as aftermarket parts become available, but at this point many disgruntled XJR owners regarding FI.
Randy - RPM
Oooh, the frame rails are in the way,that's the problem, eh?
Hmmm, you know how magazine test riders reports often say "The FI was as smooth as well set up carbs blah blah blah'?
There's a lot to like about carbs.
There's a lot to like about FI too.
Biggest advantages found personally with FI bikes over carbs are ease of starting, no problems with altitude and fuel economy.
(That's a cultural difference too, ever notice how many Americans go on and on about MPG?)
So your ZX1200 carbs have the same 'Spacing"
Would that also apply to the later models FI rails and throttle bodies?
If so,there's a lot of parts out there.
I'll keep my eye out for such things, post the links here.
This will be an interesting build to follow, well done that man Flynt.*
(http://www.eccentric-cinema.com/images/movie_pix_j-p/our_man_flint1.jpg)
*
obscure pop art reference for the oldies
Quote from: ribbert on January 02, 2012, 04:35:34 PM
...It's very easy to stuff up the FJ's (or any engine for that matter) great useability with the wrong cams.
Noel
I'm on the same page... A very mild street/strip grind is what I'm thinking. The Yoshimura ST-1 cams are also interesting, but maybe hard to get. Fun searching for now.
Thinking through the other mods and cleanup a bit more now. I will straighten and repair frame, anodize some bits, add some electrical system flexibility and robustness, maybe go to a CDI ignition... What else should be done at this point?
Frank
Stealth install laser jammers and radar detectors?
Quote from: Flynt on December 31, 2011, 10:03:59 AM
Winter projects are fun! Only downside is no FJ for the next couple of months...
So last night she got stripped down a bit...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/6642337961# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/6642337961#)
and Boats.net got a preliminary order. Now to get the frame repairs and powder coating underway...
Flynt
Frank, I had posted this before, use the following code: 'meetsister' and get a additional 10% off your order
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 05, 2012, 07:49:10 PM
Frank, I had posted this before, use the following code: 'meetsister' and get a additional 10% off your order
For whatever reason this reminds me of when my wife and I were in Tijuana many years ago. Right in front of my wife, a guy asks me: "hey meeester, want to meet my seeester?"
Just had to laugh, still makes me smile...
Dan
And now the skeleton has been delivered to Frameman for a tuneup. 3-4 weeks turnaround predicted... so Randy, we're in no rush.
Time to decide on some cosmetic details. Thinking of blacking out frame, swingarm, USD fork uppers, ... essentially anything that is bare Al and I'd do the grab handles and Renntec bars I have the same. The engine should really get highlighted by this treatment and it may make the bike look newer (not really a goal).
Other options abound, so I'm looking for suggestions.
Frank
Wow, this is really going to be some bike, huh.
Pretty much the ultimate FJ.
Well done.
Found/purchased Keihin FCR carbs with pod adaptors... I was told they are the last FJ kit in the US, so now they are backorder from Japan only. Should have them late next week or early the next week. Also found a local tuner with dyno locally that has parts and experience to help me dial her in once I get it all back together and running.
Thinking of adding a mappable ignition, but all I am finding is the multiple fixed map Dyna 2000... are their other truly programmable advance ignition controllers out there? Do I even need to go that far or will one of the Dyna maps suffice?
Frank
PS - right now I'm back to "stock" cosmetics (meaning keep it looking like a stock FJ with Rittner's mods... a cleaner version of the bike at 2011 WCR)... repaint frame, re-assemble, ride.
All the new versions of the Dyna 2000's are PC programable for custom timing maps. http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/products/sportbikes/dyna_2000/ (http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/products/sportbikes/dyna_2000/)
Available on eBay for $340: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DYNATEK-DDK7-1-DYNA-2000-IGNITION-YAMAHA-FJ1100-FJ1200-FJ-1100-1200-FJ-1100-/260858941877?hash=item3cbc6791b5&item=260858941877&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DYNATEK-DDK7-1-DYNA-2000-IGNITION-YAMAHA-FJ1100-FJ1200-FJ-1100-1200-FJ-1100-/260858941877?hash=item3cbc6791b5&item=260858941877&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr)
Quote from: Flynt on January 14, 2012, 09:47:39 AM
PS - right now I'm back to "stock" cosmetics (meaning keep it looking like a stock FJ with Rittner's mods... a cleaner version of the bike at 2011 WCR)... repaint frame, re-assemble, ride.
But with a big hairy balls motor....right?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 14, 2012, 11:20:10 AM
But with a big hairy balls motor....right?
SHIT YES... 1350 with big valves, port/polish, and all the go Randy can muster :yahoo:
Thanks for the update on Dyna...
Frank
So Frameman called with some bad news... the frame and the triple tree are pretty badly bent, lower triple not even repairable. Swingarm bent a bit too. The good news is I found a new lower triple and Pat's straightening the rest, so I can get her straight again... money and time.
Klavdy - lucky you were not as beat up as this bike was from the "cone incident". Amazing how much damage I've run into that was not obvious (lesson learned for me).
Frank
Bummer,now I feel bad about selling it to you.
Apart from scratched up fairings and dinged forks etc,the deeper damage that was done was not obvious to me, the bike never got stripped down before I went back to Aus, it just sat in the garage over there.
Never even took the fairings etc off.
If I'd known it was jacked like that there would have been no way that it would be sold as a whole bike.
Would have stripped the parts off and called it a day.
Maybe Randy has some good frames?
Quote from: Flynt on January 23, 2012, 09:57:31 AM
So Frameman called with some bad news... the frame and the triple tree are pretty badly bent, lower triple not even repairable. Swingarm bent a bit too. The good news is I found a new lower triple and Pat's straightening the rest, so I can get her straight again... money and time.
Klavdy - lucky you were not as beat up as this bike was from the "cone incident". Amazing how much damage I've run into that was not obvious (lesson learned for me).
Frank
I was there that fateful day, K-Man's bike after it went down, had about 300+ feet of asphalt to scrub off some speed and still hit the hill side and bent the front up badly. K-Man had his gear and did his own slide/tumble on the asphalt. Happy you walked away with minor injuries. I still have the pics from that day somewhere around here.
Quote from: Klavdy on January 23, 2012, 06:02:54 PM
Bummer,now I feel bad about selling it to you.
I had it completely apart once already as you remember and it didn't look far enough off to detect by eye... No cracks, no broken or pinched bolts, no obvious alignment troubles... It actually rode very well and I had a suspension shop check how it rolled. They said it was a little tweaked, but got it pretty square. Frameman is taking it to factory spec, so who knows how frequently an old FJ frame actually measures in spec?
I also said last yr that I'd be doing a big motor this year... Bottom line, I'm a certified mod junkie and this is a great project. :wacko3:
It was destiny that brought your bike to me when my beautiful old '90** really just needed Marc's parts, but you beat me to them... But I would not have the wonderful rear subframe and Akra from Marc's bike. The right answer would have been from Marc to just sell me his FJ, but then I'd have no project.
:dash1: Destiny.
It will be truly a part of my life after this, so I'm OK. For guilt relief I'd recommend you pay for the frame straightening! :drinks:
Or a beer at the WCR...
Frank
** sold to a buddy that's dropped her twice in the garage and never cleans nor rides her... really sad.
Quote from: Flynt on January 23, 2012, 09:19:19 PM
** sold to a buddy that's dropped her twice in the garage and never cleans nor rides her... really sad.
Now
I feel guilty, lol.
The cash came along, just not at the right time. :dash2:
Quote from: rktmanfj on January 23, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
Quote from: Flynt on January 23, 2012, 09:19:19 PM
** sold to a buddy that's dropped her twice in the garage and never cleans nor rides her... really sad.
Now I feel guilty, lol.
The cash came along, just not at the right time. :dash2:
He wants to sell...
Quote from: Flynt on January 23, 2012, 10:01:15 PM
Quote from: rktmanfj on January 23, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
Quote from: Flynt on January 23, 2012, 09:19:19 PM
** sold to a buddy that's dropped her twice in the garage and never cleans nor rides her... really sad.
Now I feel guilty, lol.
The cash came along, just not at the right time. :dash2:
He wants to sell...
Already started another project... convertibles are (apparently) about as bad as boats. :sorry:
Frame and everything else straight, except upper triple did not survive straightening... I get it back tomorrow and will go to powder coating on Fri.
Randy says motor is coming along. Megacycle is gating, but worth the wait I hope. The FCR39s look f-ing cool and they are obviously top notch kit. Randy says the rattle like a bitch at idle, so I guess I can't hang out in that range much :biggrin:
I've gotten most all of the parts I need, but this one looks tough... any of you got the left hand motor mount for a '92 (PN 3XW-2140X-00-00)? I have a NOS right side, but the left is unavailable now. If not, anyone know of a place that will rebuild them with new rubber?
Other than that I think I need one rear brake line and I'm ready to re-assy, PC and motor build not withstanding.
Pics will come when appropriate.
Frank
sounds great frank. :good2:
This update is a bit lame, but lots going on that's maybe interesting... :negative:
Randy is continuing to manage megacycle cams with motor progressing nicely otherwise, the frame etc. is at coating and due back next weekend, YZF750 LDL handlebar conversion kit (new upper triple) coming within 2 weeks, tires getting ordered within a couple days (going to try the Q2 Dunlops), pre-reinstallation tweaking and tuning of various bits continues, ... this is fun stuff. :dash2:
Still nothing to take a picture of, except of course for the dwindling funds allocated for this project... :crazy:
Frank
PS - Notice I've dropped any reference to completion of this project... The project will be at the WCR one way or another, but hopefully I will ride her there.
Frank, I know this is not a newsflash. but it will never be "done". I had my original list that I started with back in 2005 (17" rear, 3.5"wide front). That has long since been done, but the project continues...
More pix in a few days.
Ed
Frank,
I don't remember which wheel is on your bike. If you have the Yamaha wheel with the upper caliper mount, I have a SS brake line for you. If you have the GSXR wheel with the under slung caliper, you'll have to go fish.
IM me with mailing address and I'll send it your way. Hey, pay it forward is something I have learned here. :good:
CraigO
Quote from: simi_ed on February 17, 2012, 08:26:10 PM
the project continues...
Ed
Actually a good thing IMHO... who knows what kind of trouble I could get into without these distractions.
This level of "done" should be a big step up from the last time I was "done" approx 1 yr ago. I'm also doing some fine tuning on suspension and trying to close all gaps I had noticed in the past year. We'll take this level for a bit and see what's next.
Frank
keep gong frank , it will be awesome at the next incarnation . :good2:
This build is going to be the best build yet, far better than "Black Sunshine" in so many ways.
This is going to be a professionally built street machine, a sleeper too.
A race book in quaint old clothes.
I for one, love it.
You'll make money from magazine shoots too.
Welll done mate and I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it.
All the best, mate.
i know you're going to love your new engine.
did you say you found some Kehins?
they are the shiznit.......you better have a good grip! :good2: :good2: :good2: :good2:
with the 1349cc pump you are going to need a couple size smaller main and pilot jets for the FCRs than what they are going to come with ..... remember a bigger pump will pull more fuel thru a smaller jet @ a greater velocity vs. a smaller pump with a larger jet @ a lower velocity.
The needles they come with are perfect for the FJ and the air jets are adjustable so you're golden as far as that part of the tuning goes.
get ready fer KOokaloo! :good2:
Quote from: racerman_27410 on February 18, 2012, 07:18:43 PM
...did you say you found some Kehins?
I did... supposedly the last set in the US, backorder from here on out.
I also found a tuning shop in my neck of the woods with all the appropriate jets and a dyno, so we'll get her tuned with sniffer for correct AFR. The set I got is jetted for an XJR1300, so I amy not be too far off. With the cams, bigger values, P&P head, and Akra exhaust, etc. I want to do the dyno time to make sure it is right.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on February 20, 2012, 12:42:04 PM
The set I got is jetted for an XJR1300, so I amy not be too far off. With the cams, bigger values, P&P head, and Akra exhaust, etc. I want to do the dyno time to make sure it is right.
Frank
yes mine were for the XJR 1300 also.... remember thats really just a 1250cc engine.
for sure take the dyno time and do the job right..... you will be most happy with the results. :good2:
the only negative thing i can say about the FCR's is the lack of a choke but a few twists of the throttle will usually do the trick unless its really cold outside.
KOokaloo!
Everything straight (thanks Frameman) and coated (anodized, powder coated, or chromed).
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6973999369_3d61f2167b.jpg)
This deserved a beer and some deep contemplation... (note the worried look from the Bimmer)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7189/6827880734_f0fdbdc0a4_z.jpg)
Then I had to leave for Taiwan and China this week :mad:
Starting to piece her back together on Friday. Still looking for that new '92 front motor mount out there... I need the "Y" version (already have a new "X") just in case anyone might have a lead for me.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on March 11, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
Still looking for that new '92 front motor mount out there... I need the "Y" version (already have a new "X") just in case anyone might have a lead for me.
Frank
I emailed you a couple of links.
Randy - RPM
So here sits my lovely FJ on Friday night...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7245/6923605042_7e9dc851e9_z.jpg)
Saturday night...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/7069696987_5c48a973b8_z.jpg)
Sunday afternoon...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7244/7069687027_d9cff34ffc_z.jpg)
Only the one big thing missing, but Randy's got me covered there. Actually, you'll see here's no rear brake yet... still getting re-chromed pedal and new lines.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on April 11, 2012, 11:01:37 PM
So here sits my lovely FJ on Friday night...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/6923605042/)
Saturday night...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/7069696987/)
Sunday afternoon...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/7069687027/)
Keep it going Frank, Get er' done....
Only the one big thing missing, but Randy's got me covered there. Actually, you'll see here's no rear brake yet... still getting re-chromed pedal and new lines.
Frank
Frank
Well,
The pressure is on now... :yes:
Randy - RPM
P.S. - How are those two cover coming, I want to paint them with the rest of the engine so the color matches.
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 11, 2012, 11:27:00 PM
"P.S. - How are those two cover coming..."
Oouch... got to get to that. :blush: :blush:
Quote from: FJmonkey on April 11, 2012, 11:05:51 PM
Quote from: Flynt on April 11, 2012, 11:01:37 PM
So here sits my lovely FJ on Friday night...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/6923605042/)
Saturday night...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/7069696987/)
Sunday afternoon...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/7069687027/)
Keep it going Frank, Get er' done....
Only the one big thing missing, but Randy's got me covered there. Actually, you'll see here's no rear brake yet... still getting re-chromed pedal and new lines.
Frank
Frank
my post was F%$# clipped, I am out of town with worst than dial up connection to the net.
Frank, keep it up, get er' done... Maybe this post will stick???
Got your message roomie. This is really fun for me... love projects. :dash2: :ireful: :dash2:
Unfortunately, I think I'm just going to get out for one day with you gents at the WCR... got some travel starting Saturday (unless I can move it to Sunday). I will get there, even if just for a few hours... :drinks:
Frank
Quote from: FJmonkey on April 11, 2012, 11:37:04 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on April 11, 2012, 11:05:51 PM
Quote from: Flynt on April 11, 2012, 11:01:37 PM
So here sits my lovely FJ on Friday night...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/6923605042/)
Saturday night...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/7069696987/)
Sunday afternoon...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/58073474@N05/7069687027/)
Keep it going Frank, Get er' done....
Only the one big thing missing, but Randy's got me covered there. Actually, you'll see here's no rear brake yet... still getting re-chromed pedal and new lines.
Frank
Frank
my post was F%$# clipped, I am out of town with worst than dial up connection to the net.
Frank, keep it up, get er' done... Maybe this post will stick???
errrr, never mind...... Go Frank Go!!!!!!
Quote from: Flynt on April 11, 2012, 11:44:54 PM
Got your message roomie. This is really fun for me... love projects. :dash2: :ireful: :dash2:
Unfortunately, I think I'm just going to get out for one day with you gents at the WCR... got some travel starting Saturday (unless I can move it to Sunday). I will get there, even if just for a few hours... :drinks:
Frank
Looks like you are gonna have some real kick ass Kookaloo going. Looking forward to seeing your project up close.
Quote from: Flynt on April 11, 2012, 11:01:37 PM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7244/7069687027_d9cff34ffc_z.jpg)
Only the one big thing missing, but Randy's got me covered there.
Enjoying morning coffee, then heading out to Oakdale for a late birthday present... Randy has the engine done and 99% installed, so we'll put on the final bits and go for (a very hot) test ride. Then load her up and trailer her back to SJ. :yahoo:
I'll post some pics and details later.
Frank
<drool>
Lookin' good!
Really stunning with the black frame.... Congrats!
she,s looking hot, :good2: , what swingarm is that :scratch_one-s_head:,, mustang looks good too :dance:
Quote from: fj11.5 on July 22, 2012, 11:15:53 AM
she,s looking hot :good2:
And she was... 100+ in Oakdale yesterday!
Quote from: fj11.5 on July 22, 2012, 11:15:53 AMwhat swingarm is that :scratch_one-s_head:
Thunderace (and YZF750 forks)
Quote from: fj11.5 on July 22, 2012, 11:15:53 AMMustang looks good too :dance:
wifey's toy car... consumate garage queen.
Quote from: axiom-r on July 22, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
Really stunning with the black frame...
... and silver engine! I'll post pics, maybe even tonight.
BTW - even without any tuning, WOT demonstrates this is going to be one fast FJ1350 :bye2:
Frank
aawwww the poor stang, , hope wifey takes her out to stretch the legs :good2: , awesome arm conversion :yahoo:
Quote from: Flynt on July 23, 2012, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: axiom-r on July 22, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
Really stunning with the black frame...
... and silver engine! I'll post pics, maybe even tonight.
OK... Here she is. Few niggles to work through and dyno tune to get it to 100%, but she's running pretty well with the Keihins as shipped. I plan to ride 500mi or so, then get to the dyno and dial her in. The exhaust will blow small children over... this thing pumps some air!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7263/7648200146_b23d12607d_z.jpg)
And Randy's work is just top notch. Look at that oil cooler and the brushed Akra... sweet!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7275/7648200534_263cbec5a5_z.jpg)
I have played a bit out of curiosity... 3rd gear, 70 mph, twist the wrist, you're on wheelie before your brain catches up. I get the Kookaloo now!
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on July 26, 2012, 12:02:30 AM
Quote from: Flynt on July 23, 2012, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: axiom-r on July 22, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
Really stunning with the black frame...
... and silver engine! I'll post pics, maybe even tonight.
OK... Here she is. Few niggles to work through and dyno tune to get it to 100%, but she's running pretty well with the Keihins as shipped. I plan to ride 500mi or so, then get to the dyno and dial her in. The exhaust will blow small children over... this thing pumps some air!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7263/7648200146_b23d12607d_z.jpg)
And Randy's work is just top notch. Look at that oil cooler and the brushed Akra... sweet!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7275/7648200534_263cbec5a5_z.jpg)
I have played a bit out of curiosity... 3rd gear, 70 mph, twist the wrist, you're on wheelie before your brain catches up. I get the Kookaloo now!
Frank
that is one awesome bike!!...congrats & well done to all involved
Man, that is the ultimate show AND go. I thought my '93 was pretty tidy until I saw this.
I have a spare 1219 motor that needs a rebuild and toying with a few ideas.
Was the engine water blasted and has it been clear coated?
Whose pistons are in it? (other than yours because you paid for them)
Your bike is my wish list in pictorial form, well done.
Noel
Quote from: Flynt on July 23, 2012, 10:27:21 AM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7263/7648200146_b23d12607d_z.jpg)
I have played a bit out of curiosity... 3rd gear, 70 mph, twist the wrist, you're on wheelie before your brain catches up. I get the Kookaloo now!
Frank
Wow Frank, that's a beauty! Congratulations!
Awesome Love the USD forks and black frame and sliver engine. TOO COOL!!! Please post some pix of the back end. :good2:
Kurt
Quote from: BSI on July 26, 2012, 02:37:02 AM
that is one awesome bike!!...congrats & well done to all involved
Thanks... I also think it's coming out nicely and am delighted to have her back. Even with the bent parts and stock motor, I always loved riding this one and the K13S really doesn't fill her shoes in many ways. I've still got some project in front of me with tuning the FCRs and little items to close on... but I'm riding her again (Mark O - when is mini WCR?)!
This bike has quite the history, so I don't even know who all has been involved. Partial List:
Marc Rittner, Marsh, Klavdy (mostly f'ing it up :lol:), Pat the Frameman, Dave at ABT Machining, RPM Randy, Rob at Evolution Suspension, and of course George Washington (lots of George in fact).
My thanks to all as well... :hi:
Frank
Quote from: ribbert on July 26, 2012, 06:21:08 AM
I have a spare 1219 motor that needs a rebuild and toying with a few ideas.
Was the engine water blasted and has it been clear coated?
Whose pistons are in it? (other than yours because you paid for them)
Noel
Motor is 1349cc, big valve, ported and polished XJR head, Megacycle cams, Wiseco pistons, XJR rods, Keihin FCR39s, etc... (Randy - feel free to add details). It was stripped and bead blasted, then painted with VHT silver from Duracolor, with shiny bits stripped and polished (Randy's idea on the silver XJR look).
You may want to just send your spare motor stateside, Oakdale specifically, and let RPM take the lead. I'm #3 in his list of big bore conversions and, for one, am delighted with the process and results.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on July 26, 2012, 12:02:30 AM
OK... Here she is. Few niggles to work through and dyno tune to get it to 100%, but she's running pretty well with the Keihins as shipped. I plan to ride 500mi or so, then get to the dyno and dial her in. The exhaust will blow small children over... this thing pumps some air!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7263/7648200146_b23d12607d_z.jpg)
And Randy's work is just top notch. Look at that oil cooler and the brushed Akra... sweet!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7275/7648200534_263cbec5a5_z.jpg)
I have played a bit out of curiosity... 3rd gear, 70 mph, twist the wrist, you're on wheelie before your brain catches up. I get the Kookaloo now!
Frank
Yes those power wheelies are a TON of fun!
she looks great brother! Enjoy the ride :good2:
KOokaloo!
Frank
Fantastic build! I'd like to do something like that someday, straight up awesome right there
Is that a custom exhaust? I'm digging setup too
:hi: My hat is off to you Frank! GREAT work!! I can't wait to see her in person at the next WCR...
Impressive.
That machine looks totally awesome. Excellent job!
Quote from: musicman on July 26, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
Is that a custom exhaust?
Not custom. It is the Akra race version for the XJR1300... Marc Rittner sourced this from Europe. It is quite cool and well made I believe.
RPM Randy is knocking it off I believe so we can have more like it for our domestic FJ crew.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on July 26, 2012, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: musicman on July 26, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
Is that a custom exhaust?
Not custom. It is the Akra race version for the XJR1300... Marc Rittner sourced this from Europe. It is quite cool and well made I believe.
RPM Randy is knocking it off I believe so we can have more like it for our domestic FJ crew.
Frank
Ahem...
I believe the correct term is "Reverse Engineering"...
(popcorn)
Quote from: tmkaos on July 26, 2012, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: Flynt on July 26, 2012, 10:25:48 PM
Ahem...
I believe the correct term is "Reverse Engineering"...
(popcorn)
Sorry... too many trips to China I guess. Randy is actually making a header that is a multi segment 4-2-1 like the Akra, only more targeted for our bikes. Mine is too far from the frame to fit under the chin fairing... OK for me since I like the hooligan touch, but not engineered for the bike like Randy's stuff is.
No offense to Randy intended... :flag_of_truce:
Frank
Don't worry i was just stirring the pot.. :good2:
We all know Randy is A1 :good2:
Wow, Frank that is beautimus, I think that you have the first rubber mounted big block FJ in the world. Very cool.
The power sure is fun, huh? A 1350cc motor producing 100+ ft.lbs of torque is where it's at for street riding, that's for sure.
Watch your oil consumption while those rings seat. Don't freak out when you see how soon your gas tank goes empty. :shout:
I wonder why you went with the XJR head? Was your old one knackered? IIRC Randy also lightened your crank.
Are you running the stock ignition? I'm sure Randy wired in a relay for more juice to your coils, that makes for a nice fat blue spark.
Let us know what your dyno numbers come in at.... Yea, let's get together in Sacto for a mini WCR this fall... I wanna drool on your bike.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 27, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
I'm sure Randy wired in a relay for more juice to your coils, that makes for a nice fat blue spark.
More info, please :mail1:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 27, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
I'm sure Randy wired in a relay for more juice to your coils, that makes for a nice fat blue spark.
when we did the relay mod to my 92 FJ, volts to the coils went from a weakish 10 volts to over 12 volts and it made a noticeable difference.
:good2: That really is real 'Pride of ownership'...
BRAVO-MAGNIFICO!!!!!! :good2: ....... TIGER ....... :good2:
Quote from: Alf on July 27, 2012, 05:02:17 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 27, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
I'm sure Randy wired in a relay for more juice to your coils, that makes for a nice fat blue spark.
More info, please :mail1:
It's saved over in the Files: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0)
Thanks, Pat
lightened crank? How much weight did they take off?
Here's mine...
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/Racerman27410/Lightenedcrank2.jpg)
it makes a huge difference in how fast the engine picks up (and drops) revs doesnt it? Sounds like a cross between a chevy small block and a formula 1 car :hi:
KOokaloo!
Frank
"I think that you have the first rubber mounted big block FJ in the world."
Nope Steve Conklin had one one in his 91 model several years ago.. IIRC
Eric M
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 27, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
I wonder why you went with the XJR head?
XJR block, not head... sorry :sorry:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 27, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
IIRC Randy also lightened your crank.
Randy didn't touch my crank thank you... he's not that kind of guy :rofl:
Actually, no lightened crank for me. It makes a big difference I know, but I'm fine without the sudden deceleration and associated ball crush hazard...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 27, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
I wanna drool on your bike.
Thanks for the warning... I'll bring towels. :smile:
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on February 18, 2012, 07:18:43 PM
with the 1349cc pump you are going to need a couple size smaller main and pilot jets for the FCRs than what they are going to come with .....
Specifics here would be appreciated (size recommendations?)... I'm going to lean her out a bit before riding much more, then ride for a while before the dyno tune. As it is I'm getting 100mi out of a tank and Randy's concerned we're washing down the cyl walls with the excessive fuel.
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on July 28, 2012, 09:14:25 PM
"I think that you have the first rubber mounted big block FJ in the world."
Nope Steve Conklin had one one in his 91 model several years ago.. IIRC
Eric M
That's right Eric, I forgot about Thor.... I wonder how he's doing.
Frank, do you recall the reason you had to rebuild Brutus? Was it excessive fuel washdown?
I'll see if i can find my notes on what i wound up with for jetting the FCR's .... i'm sure i went down at least two sizes on the pilots and possibly three sizes on the mains.. the air and mixture screws are adjustable so you are good with those and the needle tapers are good... i ran into the same fueling issues because the huge ass pistons suck a ton of fuel thru the stock jets..... a hundred miles to a tank sucks (literally) if your fuel stop is 105 miles away.
Pat,
yes cylinder wash was a big issue......i actually put the stock carbs back on in order to seat the new rings..... right now if i ride easy/touring i can get the fuel mileage into the 40's (highest ever was 42 mpg) but i average in the mid 30's on regular twisty mtn. roads (getting on it as much as the road will allow)........ about 150 miles to a tank with some fuel left over just in case....... it could be more but i have the rear of my FJ lifted so the amount of fuel available is reduced.
KOokaloo!
Frank
Here ya go Frank.... i had to pull the carbs to get this for you.
Main Jets = 148
Slow jets = 55
Slow air mixture screws = 1 & 1/8 out from seated (engine side bottom of carbs in front of float bowls)
Air bleed screws = 4 turns out from seated (air filter side- left hand hole )
KOokaloo!
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 05, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
i had to pull the carbs to get this for you.
Thanks so much Frank.... I'll let you know how it works for me.
Marsh gets another donation thanks to the great membership we've got here.
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 05, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
Main Jets = 148
Slow jets = 55
USPS says I'll have these Friday, so my Saturday is defined now... :good:
Thanks again Frank!
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on August 07, 2012, 06:22:57 PM
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 05, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
Main Jets = 148
Slow jets = 55
USPS says I'll have these Friday, so my Saturday is defined now... :good:
Thanks again Frank!
Frank
Have fun and Hang on! :good2:
KOokaloo!
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on August 05, 2012, 03:29:49 PM
Thanks so much Frank.... I'll let you know how it works for me.
Marsh gets another donation thanks to the great membership we've got here.
Frank
Thank you Frank & Frank!! :good2: It is MUCH appreciated!!
Quote from: Marsh White on August 09, 2012, 11:31:39 AM
Thank you Frank & Frank!! :good2: It is MUCH appreciated!!
Thank YOU Marsh!.... this is a great website full of good people (just as you intended) :good2:
Kookaloo!
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 05, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
Main Jets = 148--- check (was 150)
Slow jets = 55--- check (already had them it turns out)
Slow air mixture screws = 1 & 1/8 out from seated (engine side bottom of carbs in front of float bowls)--- check (was about right)
Air bleed screws = 4 turns out from seated (air filter side- left hand hole )--- check (this was WAY off, only ~1 turn open)
KOokaloo!--- check!!!
WOW :good2:
She's much happier overall, even sounding better and with more stable idle. Still feels slightly fat between 3,500 and 6,500 (probably good for break in). The off idle and low speed roll-on are sorted... you can practically drop the clutch at a stop sign and she just rolls on out. Above 7K is unreal!!
What kind of timing are you running? I'm at stock, but my plate has the 5 degree mod done and I'm tempted to throw in the advance and see what it does.
Yep... jets came yesterday and I needed to take 1/2 day off today to self gratify.
THANKS FRANK!!! :drinks:
Frank,
i am running the dyna ignition on map 3... i would go ahead and put the advance in and see how she does.... it may take care of the rich midrange feeling you are getting.
just thought....what kind of filters are you running? do you also have the bolt on optional air filter adapters?
I am using uni oiled foam pods with the adapters.
you have to be careful not to over oil them as that will change the tuning. I normally just lightly massage the oil into the foam with my fingers instead of dunking the filters and squeezing out the excess.
I can launch really hard from a standstill in second gear.... i find it makes things much more controllable..... WFO in first gear is definitely an eye opening experience!.... can you say wheelie while the back tire is spinning :shok:
I played with my ride height quite a bit to get the bike to behave right....with the ride height low the bike would hook up and want to loop a wheelie... i kept raising the rear end until the tire would light up out of the hole.... then i dropped it back down a bit so now it will lift the front tire about 6 inches before the tire starts spinning.... from a dead stop all of the guys i ride with on their sportbikes get a good look at my tail light all the way to the ton.... then i let them by since i dont think i have to prove anything else to them (or lose my license) needless to say none of them talk shit about the "old" FJ anymore :biggrin:
hang on and enjoy the ride my friend! :good:
Kookaloo!
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 10, 2012, 01:25:13 PM
just thought....what kind of filters are you running? do you also have the bolt on optional air filter adapters?
I have the filter adapters and individual Uni filters as well... lightly oiled, outside only. I have had foam filters on various things and like the light oil/clean regularly approach.
Anyway, rode for 150mi today in 100 degree weather and the mid range was much more crisp... the last ride was about 65 degrees out and the midrange was fat, so the slightly fat hypothesis is supported. I actually think that's fine and today I got about 32mpg on HWY 130 (twisty and slow), so I think we're fueling OK for break in purposes now. :good2:
The biggest change is low end which is smooth as silk now and easy to depend on. Top end is also quite a delight, although I am using in moderation out of respect for the new internals.
Thanks again Frank... we're not fully tapping the potential yet and I'm sure the dyno tuning will unleash a whole new beast, but she's happy and running well enough to keep me grinning full time right now thanks to some pretty minor adjustments based on very specific recommendations... I love this site! :bye2:
Frank
I think you will find these carbs are very sensitive to temp,humidity and altitude..... Over the last few years i have found that tweaking the air and mixture screws is necessary when the weather turns from hot to cold or when i ride in the mtns above 3000ft (they make a really nice right angle screwdriver just for adjusting the mixture screws on these carbs)
if you are taking it easy you should be getting around 38-42 mpg. Too rich is not good for the FJ engine... it has a very inefficient combustion chamber and too much fuel will just lead to unnecessary carbon build up and possible cylinder wall washing.
i'm not sure exactly how far the air screws will back out before they actually fall out but you might try backing them out another half to full turn or so to lean out that midrange
if the air screws start feeling loose ( i guess you could actually take them out and count the turns) you may need to drop another size on the pilot jets and turn the air screws back in a turn or so (2.5 to 3 turns out)
I guess you have figured out by now that the air screws are used to fine tune the pilot circuit.... turning them out adds air to make it leaner, in reduces air to make it richer.... lots of adjustments on these carbs and lots of circuit overlap between the idle circuit, pilot circuit, needles and mains...... its amazing at how far you actually have to twist the throttle to even get on the mains! ( i know you know now cause you can feel it when it does :biggrin: ) How is your accelerator pump working.... does it jump nice when you whack open the throttle from about 6000 RPM?
I think we can get you dialed in pretty good using the mileage figures..... dont be afraid to hammer on it..... the rings will break in and seal better if you get that pressure on them.... personally i like to break my engines in like i am going to be running them.... a lesson from my father..."if it was built right it wont break unless you're trying to break it" :good:
Figuring out the Kehins has been quite a learning curve for me over the last few years and i like that what i've learned has helped you out a bit. (God knows no one around here where i live knew a damn thing about tuning them.) Once you can get on a dyno with a EGA you can get perfect fueling (12.5 to 13.0 - 1 ) and see what it actually feels like when you're riding... then whenever you are out and about you will be able to feel exactly when you need to stop and make a quick adjustment for the conditions. (are we having fun yet?)
Just remember these carbs are not set and forget.... they are racing carbs that pretty much demand a hands on approach in order to maximize their true potential.... I know you are a hands on fella so this tuning/tweaking thing is right up your alley. Enjoy the ride my friend!
KOokaloo :good2:
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 12, 2012, 02:14:46 AM
I know you are a hands on fella so this tuning/tweaking thing is right up your alley.
I had a 240z with triple Webers that had 3 set of jets... summer, winter, and spring/fall. It didn't like any altitude above about 4000 ft (I live at about 125ft). My current 240z has TWM side draft injection with Electromotive stand alone fueling... it takes care of all those variables and still gives the responsive Weber feel and awesome intake roar. Maybe the FJ will need EFI at some point.
I can see a pattern developing here :wacko1:
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on August 12, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 12, 2012, 02:14:46 AM
I know you are a hands on fella so this tuning/tweaking thing is right up your alley.
I had a 240z with triple Webers that had 3 set of jets... summer, winter, and spring/fall. It didn't like any altitude above about 4000 ft (I live at about 125ft). My current 240z has TWM side draft injection with Electromotive stand alone fueling... it takes care of all those variables and still gives the responsive Weber feel and awesome intake roar. Maybe the FJ will need EFI at some point.
I can see a pattern developing here :wacko1:
Frank
How weird is that...Besides also being named Frank I also have a 240 Z ,a 72 i bought with a blown engine in 79 (still have it) built a stomping stroker engine with my father and put triple mikunis on it..i was never satisfied with the triple weber setup..... also my experience that before every friday night cruise the carbs got a good tweaking.... didnt want any issues when the lights turned green ya know :good2:
Steve Conklin was working on putting fuel injection on his big bore FJ... he was using a micro squirt setup with some first gen busa throttle bodies? but i dont think he got too far along with the programming side of it.
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 12, 2012, 08:33:41 PM
but i dont think he got too far along with the programming side of it.
That's dyno work and a tuning guru... otherwise you can really chase your tail. Although they have auto tune systems now that use TPS, knock sensors, even MAF based although MAP is still the most common. My z runs like a hose and I just balance the throttle bodies every few years to keep it that way. It is a 3 liter with 260Hp roughly, or 225 at the wheels. Full on track prep with custom Stoptech 4 wheel brakes. Unreal body work and paint with full custom interior and lots of one-of-a-kind mechanical stuff... Sadly, I think I'm going to sell it soon :cray:
Frank
On the coincidence part... WOW! I'm adopted, maybe we're twins as well? :rofl2:
Pics of your z?
Frank
OH...OH...OH 240Z??? :good2:....wow I've been envious of your bikes...but now Frank...and Frank...you've got me wanting to see your 240's, they sound awesome...I've got a 73' I bought in 79' and it unfortunately had to live thru the years I was trying to be Mario Andretti, it survived but needs lots of TLC...I also had a 72' that didn't survive a head on
I LOVE those cars and would love see what you'll have down...and of course I would understand if you didn't want to post pics of your precious gems...thanks guys
Quote from: BSI on August 13, 2012, 05:25:23 AM
I LOVE those cars and would love see what you'll have down...and of course I would understand if you didn't want to post pics of your precious gems...thanks guys
This would take obscuring and pixelating number plates and rego labels to the next level, leaving the entire vehicle out of the photo!
dam, I didn't do that when I posted tail light pics OH NO :wacko1:
I'm not worried....
me either, not like they can't be seen when out and about :scratch_one-s_head:
Quote from: Flynt on August 11, 2012, 06:26:55 PM
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 10, 2012, 01:25:13 PM
just thought....what kind of filters are you running? do you also have the bolt on optional air filter adapters?
I have the filter adapters and individual Uni filters as well... lightly oiled, outside only. I have had foam filters on various things and like the light oil/clean regularly approach.
Anyway, rode for 150mi today in 100 degree weather and the mid range was much more crisp... the last ride was about 65 degrees out and the midrange was fat, so the slightly fat hypothesis is supported. I actually think that's fine and today I got about 32mpg on HWY 130 (twisty and slow), so I think we're fueling OK for break in purposes now. :good2:
The biggest change is low end which is smooth as silk now and easy to depend on. Top end is also quite a delight, although I am using in moderation out of respect for the new internals.
Thanks again Frank... we're not fully tapping the potential yet and I'm sure the dyno tuning will unleash a whole new beast, but she's happy and running well enough to keep me grinning full time right now thanks to some pretty minor adjustments based on very specific recommendations... I love this site! :bye2:
Frank
Actually it is the other way around. Lower air temps increase air density and a richer mixture is needed. Higher temps decrease air density and less fuel is needed. High humidity will also richen any given mixture.
Quote from: JMR on August 14, 2012, 08:17:28 AM
Actually it is the other way around. Lower air temps increase air density and a richer mixture is needed. Higher temps decrease air density and less fuel is needed. High humidity will also richen any given mixture.
Some expert testimony may help here, but the dominant effect is the vacuum produced in the venturi of the carb and how much fuel flows as a result. More dense air produces a stronger vacuum (due to higher velocity for a given manifold vacuum level) and you get more gas flowing, but the density increase is linear and the vacuum/velocity increases exponentially (see Bernoulli's equation for compressible fluid flow, specifically static pressure change), so you get more fuel than you do oxygen as temp drops and density increases.
It is a brain teaser, but my weber jets for cold weather were smaller than for hot weather. My FJ in cold weather is running rich in midrange and appears to be closer to stoic ratio at about 85 degrees. For an EFI system, you do squirt more gas for cold air. For carb this is also happening, but it is convoluted with the increased vacuum effect.
CV carbs, like the stock Mikunis, overcome much of this by using venturi vacuum to position the needle for the main jet (the "piston" part is adjusting venturi size to give Constant Velocity or CV). Weber DCOE and Keihin FCR carbs use throttle position to position the needles directly and the compensation for air density is done by changing jet size. Some might wonder why the hell you'd do this to yourself since you'll never be right on with the AFR... :crazy:
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 12, 2012, 02:14:46 AM
Just remember these carbs are not set and forget.... they are racing carbs that pretty much demand a hands on approach in order to maximize their true potential.... I know you are a hands on fella so this tuning/tweaking thing is right up your alley.
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 09:23:43 AM
CV carbs, like the stock Mikunis, overcome much of this by using venturi vacuum to position the needle for the main jet (the "piston" part is adjusting venturi size to give Constant Velocity or CV). Weber DCOE and Keihin FCR carbs use throttle position to position the needles directly and the compensation for air density is done by changing jet size. Some might wonder why the hell you'd do this to yourself since you'll never be right on with the AFR... :crazy:
This is the reason I have not pulled the trigger on the FCR's, (or the TMR's) on my 1350 motor.
I ride from sea level to 7,000 ft all the time. (almost every ride) Palm Desert to Julian/Palomar/Idywilld, etc.
My OSA temps range from the desert summer 120's at sea level to winter 45's at altitude, and everything in between.
For proper performance, I know that I need more air than the 36mm CV Mikunis provide the 1350 pump, but I do not want to have to fuck around with pulling the seat and tank to have to fiddle/adjust the FCR's.
Therefore....I am looking at/for some 38mm CV Mikunis that were on the pre EFI GSXR's. These should get a bit more air to the pump.
For a street bike, CV carbs are much more adaptable to elevation/temp. changes than flatslides.
I keep remembering the infomercial for the Ronco oven..... Set it and forget it...
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 09:23:43 AM
Some might wonder why the hell you'd do this to yourself since you'll never be right on with the AFR... :crazy:
Frank
when you whack the throttle open at 6 grand and the front wheel jumps for the sky while you struggle to hold onto the beast it suddenly all becomes worthwhile .... you just cant get that kind of response with a CV carb. :biggrin:
in practice (with the FCRs and correct base jetting) some simple tweaking of the mixture and pilot air screws can keep the air fuel ratio within reason, if not perfect, regardless of the season....... one just needs to keep a couple of screwdrivers on the bike for a quick roadside adjustment as required. I just pull the seat and the left side panel for access (take the filters off from left to right)
http://www.magicracing.com/Motion-Pro-Pilot-Screw-Adjusting-Tool--Keihin-FCR-Carbs_p_4122.html (http://www.magicracing.com/Motion-Pro-Pilot-Screw-Adjusting-Tool--Keihin-FCR-Carbs_p_4122.html)
i live at 800 ft and normally ride from 1100 to 4000 ft and my FJ is tuned for those elevations...... its just a bit lean at 800 ft but i find no adjustments are required in the 1100 to 4500 ft range.
KOokaloo!
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 09:23:43 AM
Some expert testimony may help here, but the dominant effect is the vacuum produced in the venturi of the carb and how much fuel flows as a result. More dense air produces a stronger vacuum (due to higher velocity for a given manifold vacuum level) and you get more gas flowing, but the density increase is linear and the vacuum/velocity increases exponentially (see Bernoulli's equation for compressible fluid flow, specifically static pressure change), so you get more fuel than you do oxygen as temp drops and density increases.
Okay, I'll play ...
Nice logic, but you forgot to account for the variable venturi effect of the diaphragm slide. As the velocity of the airflow increases, the diaphragm slide is pulled up to increase the carb throat (venturi) area and thus slow the velocity of the airflow back down to its desired "constant" value. CV = Constant Velocity (and thus Constant Vacuum by Bernoulli's Equation)
The carb is designed to maintain a certain velocity by varying the throat area and thus maintain a (relatively) constant vacuum. The larger area allows more air to pass and the higher slide/needle position allows more fuel to flow for the increased volume of air.
Colder air is more dense and since it's flowing at a constant velocity (at least up to WOT), it will lean out a carb mixture whereas less dense hot air, also flowing at the same velocity for a given throttle position, will richen it.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 14, 2012, 10:53:27 AM
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 09:23:43 AM
Some expert testimony may help here, but the dominant effect is the vacuum produced in the venturi of the carb and how much fuel flows as a result. More dense air produces a stronger vacuum (due to higher velocity for a given manifold vacuum level) and you get more gas flowing, but the density increase is linear and the vacuum/velocity increases exponentially (see Bernoulli's equation for compressible fluid flow, specifically static pressure change), so you get more fuel than you do oxygen as temp drops and density increases.
Okay, I'll play ...
Nice logic, but you forgot to account for the variable venturi effect of the diaphragm slide. As the velocity of the airflow increases, the diaphragm slide is pulled up to increase the carb throat (venturi) area and thus slow the velocity of the airflow back down to its desired "constant" value. CV = Constant Velocity (and thus Constant Vacuum by Bernoulli's Equation)
The carb is designed to maintain a certain velocity by varying the throat area and thus maintain a (relatively) constant vacuum. The larger area allows more air to pass and the higher slide/needle position allows more fuel to flow for the increased volume of air.
Colder air is more dense and since it's flowing at a constant velocity (at least up to WOT), it will lean out a carb mixture whereas less dense hot air, also flowing at the same velocity for a given throttle position, will richen it.
DavidR.
That covers temp..... but then you also have to add elevation and humidity levels to the equation.
This is fun stuff!.... well ok maybe not so fun ....but power wheelies ARE fun and ya cant get them without proper tuning :biggrin:
KOokaloo!
Frank
Frank,
True! Elevation and humidity also affect the mixture. Along with temperature, those factors vary the air density / oxygen content which is an almost negligible input to a CV carb when compared to the air velocity effect.
I remember the good old dirt bike days when I controlled the slide directly. I might not have been as accurate as a CV carb at providing the optimum mixture at all times, but that '74 MX-360 2-stroke sure was a blast to ride regardless of the A/F ratio I was providing. I still miss that bike everytime I get on my TTR-230 (what a gutless pig at every throttle position).
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 14, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
Frank,
True! Elevation and humidity also affect the mixture. Along with temperature, those factors vary the air density / oxygen content which is an almost negligible input to a CV carb when compared to the air velocity effect.
I remember the good old dirt bike days when I controlled the slide directly. I might not have been as accurate as a CV carb at providing the optimum mixture at all times, but that '74 MX-360 2-stroke sure was a blast to ride regardless of the A/F ratio I was providing. I still miss that bike everytime I get on my TTR-230 (what a gutless pig at every throttle position).
DavidR.
David,
I'm sorry about the TTR my friend..... "gutless pig" doesnt sound like much fun. Big bore? Cams? flatslide? turbo? nitrous?
surely something can be done ? :crazy:
I also have a FCR on my DRZ and other than tweaking the mixture screw occasionally its been pretty much set and forget.
Luckily i bought the "T" version of the mixture screw for that one so its easy to adjust on the trail.
http://www.jdjetting.com/xcart/product.php?productid=46 (http://www.jdjetting.com/xcart/product.php?productid=46)
kOOkaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 14, 2012, 02:23:44 PM
David,
I'm sorry about the TTR my friend..... "gutless pig" doesnt sound like much fun. Big bore? Cams? flatslide? turbo? nitrous?
surely something can be done ?
I'm biding my time. My buddy with the Super Tenere also has a WR-450 set up as an S/M streetbike. I'm sure he'll get restless and want something else next year. THAT bike is a total blast to ride EVERYwhere! (Well maybe everywhere except for the highway).
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 14, 2012, 03:40:12 PM
I'm biding my time. My buddy with the Super Tenere also has a WR-450 set up as an S/M streetbike. I'm sure he'll get restless and want something else next year. THAT bike is a total blast to ride EVERYwhere! (Well maybe everywhere except for the highway).
DavidR.
now we're talking!
you'll be pulling horn mono's, jumping ditches into parking lots and riding up and down stairs before you know it :biggrin:
KOokaloo!
Frank
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 14, 2012, 10:53:27 AM
...you forgot to account for the variable venturi effect of the diaphragm slide.
I DID NOT! :blum1: read a bit more and you'll see I mention the CV advantage.
We're talking about Keihin FCRs (or Weber DCOEs) which are not CV design like the stock Mikunis (or the stock Hitachi SU knock offs on the original 240z). Agreed CVs are nice in that they compensate for a much wider range of atmospheric conditions, but they're not going to give your wrist the direct ability to step change airflow and squirt gas directly into the intake (accelerator pumps) to get the OMFG reaction Kookaloo represents. :yahoo:
I'm a chronic tuner and having the flatsides will give me hours of play time. I also really like dyno tuning stuff and am looking forward to the first motorcycle dyno experience. Crazy when this all started with arguably one of the nicest, best sorted FJs out there... but look where we are now :wacko2:
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 04:42:52 PM
Crazy when this all started with arguably one of the nicest, best sorted FJs out there... but look where we are now :wacko2:
Frank
Its not a hot rod until it has a hot rod engine! :good2:
KOokaloo!
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 04:42:52 PM
I DID NOT! ... We're talking about Keihin FCRs (or Weber DCOEs) which are not CV
Frank
My bad, I mis-read that as you were describing the behavior of stock FJ CV carbs.
That said, I still don't understand your logic in this statement:
"More dense air produces a stronger vacuum (due to higher velocity for a given manifold vacuum level) and you get more gas flowing, but the density increase is linear and the vacuum/velocity increases exponentially (see Bernoulli's equation for compressible fluid flow, specifically static pressure change), so you get more fuel than you do oxygen as temp drops and density increases."The velocity and density are not directly related as it appears that you're implying in the first part of your statement above. An increase in density will increase the vacuum produced, but it has no effect on the velocity. Yes, the vacuum varies linearly with density and by the square of the velocity. Which is why velocity is the dominant factor to fuel flow in any carb.
Even with a flat slide carb, any steady state (cruise) throttle position will produce a certain intake velocity that "should" essentially be equivalent to a CV carb at the same throat area. The accelerator pump equipped F/S carb has a distinct advantage on acceleration which is why they feel so responsive.
But like everyone is saying, tuning is the key to everything.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 14, 2012, 06:34:09 PM
I still don't understand your logic in this statement...
I was making the counter intuitive point that, although the air is more dense when cold, the dominant effect is the venturi related vacuum increase due to velocity increase of the air. The initial comment was "the more dense air needs more fuel, so you need a bigger jet"... that's logical but incorrect. My counter point is logical, but perhaps poorly worded...
Anyway, colder air requires smaller jets to get same AFR in a FCR carb... agreed?
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 08:12:39 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 14, 2012, 06:34:09 PM
I still don't understand your logic in this statement...
I was making the counter intuitive point that, although the air is more dense when cold, the dominant effect is the venturi related vacuum increase due to velocity increase of the air. The initial comment was "the more dense air needs more fuel, so you need a bigger jet"... that's logical but incorrect. My counter point is logical, but perhaps poorly worded...
Anyway, colder air requires smaller jets to get same AFR in a FCR carb... agreed?
Frank
Given no other changes such as pilot jet, air screw setting, main air jet, needle height and taper? I asume you mean the mains? We always changed the CR air jets as the day went on getting warmer and warmer when road racing at Loudon to compensate for the heat. But that was many years ago and long before FCR's (though I believe the basic principle is still in existence).
I have run 39 FCR's for over 10 years with large K&N's just so you don't think I am unfamiliar with them. I do like the whistling noise they produce at low speeds when you open them up.
As a side not note....what are you using for a throttle cable mounting bracket and how have you tuned the accelerator pump? The RS pump set up is far better in my opinion as is the TMR's....I also have a set of those for another application. Not many other people in the USA can say that.
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 08:12:39 PM
I was making the counter intuitive point that, although the air is more dense when cold, the dominant effect is the venturi related vacuum increase due to velocity increase of the air. The initial comment was "the more dense air needs more fuel, so you need a bigger jet"... that's logical but incorrect. My counter point is logical, but perhaps poorly worded...
Anyway, colder air requires smaller jets to get same AFR in a FCR carb... agreed?
Frank
Well, I guess I can learn something new. I'd always read the dense (cold) air needs more fuel and mindlessly repeated it. However, working through several scenarios using Bernoulli, the math supports your conclusion.
Assuming everything else is constant, a denser air condition will create a larger delta pressure (higher vacuum) in the carb throat thus picking up more fuel. The question is will the vacuum increase be high enough to draw sufficient fuel to compensate for the additional (more dense) air? Your experience says "yes" and actually requires a jetting change to get back to the desired AFR.
It is counter-intuitive, but the math says you are correct. Excellent observation! Bravo sir!
DavidR.
Quote from: JMR on August 14, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
I do like the whistling noise they produce at low speeds when you open them up.
With ya there brother... these things are about the coolest behaving multi-carb setups I've seen. Very robust, nicely balanced, and with Frank's help they must be 80+% of full potential now... and it is already verging on insane. The whistle and the WOT roar are intoxicating.
Quote from: JMR on August 14, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
As a side not note....what are you using for a throttle cable mounting bracket and how have you tuned the accelerator pump?
I'm using the pull only of the stock pull-push dual cable setup. Wrapped the grip end around the back of the part originally meant for the return cable. The Keihins have a very strong spring and no facility for the other cable. The cable needed some adjustments, but is now engaged immediately and about 1/4 turn to full throttle. The carb end mount was already in place to accept the FJ cables... The accelerator pumps are as shipped... they are close I believe as this thing is a tractor off the line and in roll-on. I'm sure the dyno will right the wrong eventually, but it is sweet for now.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on August 14, 2012, 10:37:21 PM
Quote from: JMR on August 14, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
I do like the whistling noise they produce at low speeds when you open them up.
With ya there brother... these things are about the coolest behaving multi-carb setups I've seen. Very robust, nicely balanced, and with Frank's help they must be 80+% of full potential now... and it is already verging on insane. The whistle and the WOT roar are intoxicating.
Quote from: JMR on August 14, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
As a side not note....what are you using for a throttle cable mounting bracket and how have you tuned the accelerator pump?
I'm using the pull only of the stock pull-push dual cable setup. Wrapped the grip end around the back of the part originally meant for the return cable. The Keihins have a very strong spring and no facility for the other cable. The cable needed some adjustments, but is now engaged immediately and about 1/4 turn to full throttle. The carb end mount was already in place to accept the FJ cables... The accelerator pumps are as shipped... they are close I believe as this thing is a tractor off the line and in roll-on. I'm sure the dyno will right the wrong eventually, but it is sweet for now.
Frank
I modified the throttle bracket (cut/rewelded) to accept 2 Motion Pro cables for positive return with the stock throttle housing. It also eliminated the stock junction box associated with FJ's.
The accelerator pump comes in very early and has a long duration.....it gives that "kill" in the 5,000 RPM range that is oh so familiar with RS's.
You will find the dyno interesting if not frustrating. I've become more used to flat lines from FI at this point.
Also....check your float height...it should be 9mm.....try to find that number anywhere. It is rarely right as arrived and will ultimately effect all throttle readings.
I'd also recommend John Robinson's "Motorcycle Fuel Systems Techbook" published by Haynes #3514, year 2000. Full of Physics and real world applications. John worked for Performance Bikes for years and was the British equivalent of Kevin Cameron. I believe John was a bit more adept at fuel and brake systems but that is IMO. Truly missed.
I remember tuning the Weber's from RC Engineering for the CB750's. That's all I have to say about that.
+ 1 on checking the float height = very important. :good2:
gotta love the noise....i love the way the slides jingle at idle.....like a pocketfull of quarters.....once the tach swings past 6 grand WFO all i can hear is the supertrapp and my own screams :biggrin:
only real issue i've found with the FCRs is lack of a choke..... it can be a real bitch on a cold morning trying to get some heat in those big pistons.
three full twists of the throttle , hit the starter....and repeat.....and repeat.... until a stable idle is achieved
its well worth the effort though and i would do it all again in a heartbeat. :good2:
Kookaloo!
Quote from: JMR on August 14, 2012, 11:13:40 PM
...check your float height...it should be 9mm...
Checked when changing jets... they we're right at 9mm measured per directions I have on FCR tuning.
Frank
PS - took my daughter (fav pillion) out to dinner last night on the bike... she commented on how smooth and strong it feels compared to before, and compared to the K13S. She's not a fan of the beemer...
Good write up.
Because earlier i spotted the word weber mentioned ,can i slip a pic in please.
Weber'd FJ.
(http://)(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/project%20stuff/0005.jpg)
:biggrin:
Quote from: dixiethedog on August 15, 2012, 02:16:52 PM
(http://)(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/project%20stuff/0005.jpg)
Looks to me like speed would work against you with this thing. Those beautifully curved, angle cut pipes about the position of your right knee are your air intakes... It is the opposite of Ram Air concept and likely would create a vacuum in the carb intakes. Dip Shit Design must have sorted this concept. TURN THE FUCKING PIPES AROUND!
Frank
Wouldn't that suck rocks and other debris directly into the engine? Form vs function. I don't see any filtering device but maybe I am missing something....
Quote from: FJmonkey on August 15, 2012, 10:18:14 PM
Wouldn't that suck rocks and other debris directly into the engine? Form vs function. I don't see any filtering device but maybe I am missing something....
good point... need a deflector shield or an intake screen of some sort. Or maybe a brain?
Frank
Hmmm, someone's posted a few familiar looking bikes here (http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/showthread.php?9631-Yamaha-FJ-1100-1200/page2&s=4cae9b79581271e3bdbab85380e216a4)
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/zxr750/2316796650068526197S600x600Q85.jpg)
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/zxr750/medium_49_13_12_09_7_44_36.png)
Some odd looking ones too,
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/0007.jpg)
(http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx53/juma5/progact/28032011159.jpg)
(http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx53/juma5/progact/28032011168.jpg)
Looks like "Black Sunshine" is there too,
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/zxr750/bs05.jpg)
(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/lindarobjones/zxr750/bs03.jpg)
Hmm...keep up the good work,as i enjoy all forms of modded FJ's. Good bad and indifferent. The FJ chop used to have the intake pipes set in that postion for shows,as they looked better. Its not my bike,but a friends. Or it was his until he became bored one day and chopped it up with an angle grinder. So it doesnt exist anymore. Mad Englishman and all that...
Quote from: dixiethedog on August 16, 2012, 07:16:00 AM
Hmm...keep up the good work,as i enjoy all forms of modded FJ's. Good bad and indifferent. The FJ chop used to have the intake pipes set in that postion for shows,as they looked better. Its not my bike,but a friends. Or it was his until he became bored one day and chopped it up with an angle grinder. So it doesnt exist anymore. Mad Englishman and all that...
Reflecting on prior comments... I was harsh. As art it is not bad, but I'm kind of form follows function biased and appreciate machines that look like they will work well at least. You can tell that lot's of effort went into the project, just not done to my taste... to each his own.
Anyway, no offense intended. :pardon:
Frank
Thanks Frank,I understand exactly what you mean with the idea that things should work well and be useable. No offense taken by any means,different strokes for different folks and all that. Talking to the builder last night,I mentioned the comments made,and he laughed them off. But we both agreed,its great to see a well built performance orientated FJ,and your build, we are sure fits the bill perfectly. :good2:
Impressed with the supercharged fj, is that black sunshine? ? :good2:
Quote from: Flynt on August 09, 2012, 11:16:45 PM
KOokaloo!--- check!!!
So I'm riding her quite a bit trying to get through break-in. Rode with Randy on Saturday and we decided to advance the timing to the 5 degree mod I had done before. I was holding off due to fear of pinging, bu tnof such behavior going up to Yosemite.
All I can say is holy shit! This brightened the entire experience and made 6K+ into a fire breathing scramble for traction! This is a monster of bike now and is the most fun I have had riding in a very long time.
Flynt
Flynt if it runs half as good as it looks WOW what a ride. :good2:
Kurt
Made a big improvement with the LED instrument lights... :i_am_so_happy: check it out:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8041/8031760264_5ef3c0658d_z.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8314/8031762707_673ce929b6_z.jpg)
Major improvement over all 4 bulbs being burned out (forgot to check this before re-assy) last week.
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 15, 2012, 12:08:52 AM
only real issue i've found with the FCRs is lack of a choke.....
three full twists of the throttle , hit the starter....and repeat.....and repeat.... until a stable idle is achieved
Hi Frank,
I'm doing 2 twists, then holding open slightly... "rolls" to a start immediately, then I ramp to and hold at 3000 rpm for 20-30 sec. At that point it will idle a little slow... maybe 950 rpm... but it does idle and pull like a tractor going sharp right ahd uphill out of my driveway.
This is better than pre FCRs for me... the Mikunis required 3 clicks for 15-20 sec, then 1 click to make it run OK out the driveway, then off as you rolled to speed away from the house. FCRs take 20-30 sec to stabilize, then give me no further trouble thus far.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on September 27, 2012, 11:07:59 PM
This is better than pre FCRs for me...
So today was a hot one for San Jose, about 95 degrees when I went out for a ride. This is my first time out above about 75 with the carb adjustments from Frank and the 5 degree advance thrown in. I know the tune likes hot weather, so I wanted to check it out a bit more methodically when the weather was a bit more FL.
Runs better across the range, but the mid range is still fat. Clears up a little earlier and you hear the bike stop making noise and make much more power starting at 4,500rpm (this was about 5K at 75 degrees). But here's the fun part... at about 7K rpm Dr Jekyll transforms, Mr Hyde is born, and the front wheel heads for the sky. The temperature difference is getting me into some very sweet spot for the mains and the bike just explodes out from under you. This should be what I can accomplish across the rev range with some dyno time.
Already having a blast and looking forward to next weekend.
Frank
Frank, how's your oil consumption?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 01, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
Frank, how's your oil consumption?
Lengthy and boring answer sent via PM...
Frank
Have you had this beastie on the dyno yet?
KOokaloo!
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on October 04, 2012, 10:15:48 PM
Have you had this beastie on the dyno yet?
Sadly no... I had pre-arranged the tuning with Marc of Fabtech, but now that we're ready to go it has been hard to get scheduled. Good news it she's already running well enough that I can't complain (thank you again Frank!). I do hope to get the tuning done in relatively warm weather to keep some safety margin for the really hot riding days (from getting too lean).
Frank
scared to ask, but what's the damage to your wallet for the engine upgrades :shok:
Quote from: fj11.5 on October 05, 2012, 05:30:51 PM
scared to ask, but what's the damage to your wallet for the engine upgrades :shok:
Sorry I missed this for so long... but sadly I don't really have an answer for you since it is not complete quite yet. I think you can expect the engine mods alone (no carbs or cams) would be $5K roughly if you fully outsource. Randy can give more detail, but you'd want to talk with him and make some choices that will determine your bill.
Frank
Quote from: racerman_27410 on October 04, 2012, 10:15:48 PM
Have you had this beastie on the dyno yet?
Delivered to Factory Pro today... they said it will take about a week, but at the end I'll have the cams set to give the power curve I want and the AFR set nicely for 80 degree SJ weather (they have a temp controlled dyno room). I'll also have the dyno data of course... :gamer:
Exciting stuff... and we'll be running nicely in Petaluma. I'm mostly just glad to be getting away from the over-rich situation I've been experiencing since the build. The smoke screen at WOT has been comical, but I'd rather make power out of the fuel. :ireful:
Good news is even with Frank's tune, I've got more work to do and more Hp to gain! :yahoo:
Frank
Good deal Frank... Can we start a pool?
The person With the closest numbers gets a free brewski at the Petaluma WCR
I'll start....I predict 155-160 rwhp with 102-107 ft.lbs torque
Also..Make sure they note the final settings on your FCRs so you can share them with us... :good2:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 05, 2013, 08:50:32 PM
Can we start a pool?
As long as I'm clean... Raul at FP told me his dyno will read 25Hp less than a Dynojet (they're always generous). Based on what he knows of the bike, he thought 100Hp at the wheel. I'm guessing at least 135 hp and 95 ftlbs at the wheel, but what do I know... :crazy:
I will bet we're going to teach him a lesson about Randy's engines! :rofl:
Frank
Oh, and I'll buy the beer for the winner.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on February 05, 2013, 09:03:45 PM
Oh, and I'll buy the beer for the winner.
Frank
Frank, you can afford it, everyone gets a beer.....
ill go 137 hp and power monkey can have my beer
ok , I call 125 rwhp . I can taste the beer already. :drinks:
Wait a minute! I want a mulligan...I didn't know they were using a eddy current Dyno
Frank did you weld some O2 bungs on your header tubes so they can take individual Fuel/air readings on each cylinder?
Quote from: Flynt on February 05, 2013, 09:03:01 PM
Raul at FP told me...
I'm probably going to be happy this week... whatever that means. I'm always happy!!! :shok:
Frank
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 06, 2013, 11:38:33 AM
...Fuel/air readings...?
FP says BAH on your AFR crap. They tune for max measured power within a target range depending on the circuit your running on. Marc (their guru) has a very logical argument why AFR tuning (which I've done many times and can be critical on turbos) makes no sense for real world motorcycles.
I'm about to find out I guess... they did want 10 gallons of gas, so they're running her a bunch... (popcorn)
Frank
Frank - good news to hear you'll be getting on the FP dyno! Will Marc be available to tweak the FCRs? Good luck! I'll take 142 on the FP dyno. What cams did you go with? Stock or oversized valves?
Quote from: fj1289 on February 12, 2013, 09:11:46 PM
1. Will Marc be available to tweak the FCRs? 2. What cams did you go with? 3. Stock or oversized valves?
1. Yes, although I think Raul just consults him while he's doing the heavy lifting.
2. Megacycle mild tune intake and exhaust. Randy is an expert at dealing with Megacycle...
3. Big valves, head is ported and polished.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on February 11, 2013, 11:59:30 PM
they did want 10 gallons of gas, so they're running her a bunch... (popcorn)
Not much of an update, but Raul has been tuning actively this week and has given me a few updates... he's changed mains to get the top end right (smaller) and now is working on the mid-range. Now we're waiting for new needles as the next step. The only feedback he's given me is that there was lots left on the table and I will be delighted with the results. He'll have the bike for all of next week since I'm heading out to Singapore and don't return until 2/25. I'll post whatever dyno results he gives me after that.
Frank - I'll get you the complete post tune setup for reference.
Frank
Singapore, eh?
pop down to Aus afterwards then,oh, and can you say "G'day" to Cockseep, the Punjabi doorman at Raffles for me?
(http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gbIDa5-Otv0/S2vc-wI7XQI/AAAAAAAADD8/TND5G6EM0Ms/s640/Raffles+3.JPG)
WHAT THA ?? WHA??
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Holy shit you crack me up Klav, you are unique my friend.! Don't ever change, :drinks:
Hoo Roo
Quote from: X-Ray on February 22, 2013, 07:48:59 PM
WHAT THA ?? WHA??
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Holy shit you crack me up Klav, you are unique my friend.! Don't ever change, :drinks:
Hoo Roo
Ummm...That's normal K-man as far as I know, nice Fez.... Stogie time at WCR.....
True story: As the Finance Minister descends the steps of the Capitol House, Klavdy, dressed in his leopard skin tunic, sunglasses and fez, steps forward to shake the Finance Minister's hand and, in front of the assembled press corp, Klavdy proclaims loudly...."He NEVER touched that child..."
The Finance Minister laughed his ass off......(a good thing too)
You guys really have to meet this creature.....really.
I'll share the teasing...
Marc at FP says they're at 32Hp over a stock bike with upgraded exhaust... also says you'll be at GSXR1000 power with much more mid-range and torque.
Raul tells me the dyno broke and they'll get the parts to fix Monday. Still working on the tune once they get the dyno back up... I should get her back next week.
So if stock was 111.8Hp at the wheel, a decent pipe would add 10% or so to get to about 125Hp, add 32Hp and we'd be at ~157Hp at the wheel or ~182Hp crank. Roughly 40% more power with 14% more displacement... great work Randy! :good2:
So my story... Randy's build broke the FP dyno :flag_of_truce:
Frank
My 1314 made about 145 with FCR-39's....and was tuned like crap.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 05, 2013, 08:50:32 PM
The person With the closest numbers gets a free brewski at the Petaluma WCR
I'll start....I predict 155-160 rwhp with 102-107 ft.lbs torque
Quote from: Flynt on February 23, 2013, 01:28:18 AM
......So if stock was 111.8Hp at the wheel, a decent pipe would add 10% or so to get to about 125Hp, add 32Hp and we'd be at ~157Hp at the wheel or ~182Hp crank.
Yum....I can already taste that ice cold O'Douls ......It's all that additional TORQUE that I really notice (with my riding style)
Shame on Randy...breaking a perfectly good dyno..... Congrats Frank! Hope you can post a graph. Pat
Ready for pickup tomorrow... :yahoo:
I'm told she's 40+Hp over stock with pipe. Raul is very complimentary of Randy's 1349cc pump... he used the words "scary fast" more than once.
Planning to pick her up and take the long way back to San Jose to renew our relationship... supposed to be mid 70's here tomorrow. :good:
I'll post comparison dyno charts when I have them. He tells me the final dyno number is 130 something, so the stocker is coming in at <90Hp at the wheel on a FP dyno (vs 111.8WHp spec when these were new bikes)... all relative ya know.
Frank
BTW - he actually mentioned that it's a good thing I have the stiffer USD forks to handle the added power... (popcorn) (popcorn) (popcorn)
Don't rile up Mike....actually it's a good thing you have that beefy tosdada YZF1000 T-Ace swing arm and big back axle..
I can only imagine how the '92's oem FJ swing arm would bend with all your torque....
Cheers Frank...I'm looking forward to the graphs....Don't forget to get your final FCR settings.... Did they change the cam timing?
the actual HP numbers dont really mean a lot on the street (least not where i ride).... its that monster torque that stretches your arms as the Keihin's instant throttle response snaps your neck!
of course a top end HP rush that blurs your vision aint so bad either :good2:
KOokaloo!
don't count your beer yet pat , the final numbers are yet to come.
Quote from: Mark Olson on March 01, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
don't count your beer yet pat , the final numbers are yet to come.
Yea, I see that. My mistake was that the Factory Pro dynos read ~20-25% lower than the Dyno Jet dynos... Oh well...
I do want to see Frank's torque curve and numbers... that is more meaningful for street performance than peak HP numbers.
OK, so here's the data. I can't scan right now because the scanner failed and I don't know how to post a graph, but here's the data from FP.
RPM Hp Tq Hp - stock + delta Hp
3000 23.2 40.7 25.3 -2.1
4000 40.9 53.7 44.3 -3.4
5000 57.2 60.1 54.7 2.5
6000 86.5 75.6 72.3 14.2
7000 106.9 80.3 84.9 22
8000 119.3 78.3 94.8 24.5
9000 128.3 74.9 97.5 30.8
9500 130 71.9 94.9 35.1
("stock +" is Kerker full system with Quiet exhaust)
Factory power for the FJ was 111.8WHp reportedly. To calibrate the numbers above, I'm going to suggest using 1Hp = 111.8/97.5FPWHp (Factory Pro WHP). Based on that my Hp would be 130(111.8/97.5) or 149WHP. Using the same ratio you get 92ftlb torque.
I'll send Frank the final jets and adjustments... now for the fun part.
Just going to tease since the dinner bell is ringing, but the bike is transformed. The lower RPM range was touchy before and wheelies on accident were common. Now is is smooth and progressive... no sudden torque bumps throughout the range. It revs smoothly and builds power with the twist of your wrist. Above 4.5K it is getting in the sweet spot as Raul calls it and the torque is really noticeable. From there on it becomes a blur pretty quickly.
When I delivered the bike it was too lean to hold the dyno load at 6500 RPM! This is really strange to me since I rev'd the bike plenty. Under max load it was way too lean to make the power needed, so My mains are a couple sizes up. They also changed needles for some proprietary profile and changed float height by a couple of mm.
I need to get some new rubber in her before wringing her out thoroughly, but today's ride back was absolutely delightful. Fucking strong bike make no mistake, but it rides like you'd want with fuel injection like control and smoothness. I'm pretty much delighted!
Frank
Moditus and the sweet reward of KOOKALOO!!! Not just a fairytale kiddos.... :good: :good: :good:
Quote from: Flynt on March 01, 2013, 09:18:40 PM
OK, so here's the data. I can't scan right now because the scanner failed and I don't know how to post a graph, but here's the data from FP.
RPM Hp Tq Hp - stock + delta Hp
3000 23.2 40.7 25.3 -2.1
4000 40.9 53.7 44.3 -3.4
5000 57.2 60.1 54.7 2.5
6000 86.5 75.6 72.3 14.2
7000 106.9 80.3 84.9 22
8000 119.3 78.3 94.8 24.5
9000 128.3 74.9 97.5 30.8
9500 130 71.9 94.9 35.1
("stock +" is Kerker full system with Quiet exhaust)
Factory power for the FJ was 111.8WHp reportedly. To calibrate the numbers above, I'm going to suggest using 1Hp = 111.8/97.5FPWHp (Factory Pro WHP). Based on that my Hp would be 130(111.8/97.5) or 149WHP. Using the same ratio you get 92ftlb torque.
I'll send Frank the final jets and adjustments... now for the fun part.
Just going to tease since the dinner bell is ringing, but the bike is transformed. The lower RPM range was touchy before and wheelies on accident were common. Now is is smooth and progressive... no sudden torque bumps throughout the range. It revs smoothly and builds power with the twist of your wrist. Above 4.5K it is getting in the sweet spot as Raul calls it and the torque is really noticeable. From there on it becomes a blur pretty quickly.
When I delivered the bike it was too lean to hold the dyno load at 6500 RPM! This is really strange to me since I rev'd the bike plenty. Under max load it was way too lean to make the power needed, so My mains are a couple sizes up. They also changed needles for some proprietary profile and changed float height by a couple of mm.
I need to get some new rubber in her before wringing her out thoroughly, but today's ride back was absolutely delightful. Fucking strong bike make no mistake, but it rides like you'd want with fuel injection like control and smoothness. I'm pretty much delighted!
Frank
That sounds right......nice. If I remember correctly you were leaning the bike out secondary to cooler ambient temperature? I always went in the other direction (richen) with cooler temps. Load shows what the engine wants. What was the A/F with the original jetting...16:1 or so? Proprietary needle profile? Still using a Keihin needle I assume....just keeping it a secret. :lol:
Before (No dyno data, bike would not hold a load above 6K RPM):
Main Jets = 148
Slow jets = 55
Slow air mixture screws = 1 & 1/8 out
Air bleed screws = 4 turns out
Float Height = 9mm
Needles = XJR1300 spec
After (130WHp, 80.3 ftlb):
Main Jets = 152
Slow jets = 55
Slow air mixture screws = 1 & 1/4 out
Air bleed screws = 4 turns out
Float Height = 11mm
Needles = FP spec proprietary
racerman's setup worked what I thought was very well. Im not sure about the "load" thing, but Raul said it was far too lean and would just die when he loaded it up. They do some stepped increase in speed and load to arrive at power estimates.
The FP tune has the feeling of a fuel injected engine. It is POWERFUL! Raul at FP kept comparing to a Gixxer and was truly impressed with Randy's engine build. However, it is really much easier to ride now with very linear throttle input especially in the low end. Once into the zone (4,500 +), it pulls like a rocket booster through 9500 RPM and is just getting stronger. The wheelie inducing initial torque is moderated, but there if you crank the throttle.
Anyway, delightful beast at this point. Hoping to ride her a bit tomorrow.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on March 02, 2013, 09:17:25 PM
Hoping to ride her a bit tomorrow.
Did a few hours on some familiar roads... this is a different bike altogether now. It is rev happy and feels most at home around 6,500-7,000 RPM. Absolutely no vibration in any rev range. It's just plain smooth under all conditions. Low end is tractor like down to 1,000 RPM with smooth roll on no matter where you are RPM-wise.
Then there's the power! The bike produces a building rush of go from 4,500 RPM that is peaking as you scream toward 10,000 RPM. Randy has made an efficient and effective pump that just makes more power the faster it spins. From 80mph in 3rd, 4th, or 5th it takes exactly zero time to be at 105mph... no drama, very solid, just hauling ass. Thank god for the suspension and brakes I have... this power plant could over power stock in a heartbeat.
THIS FUCKING THING SCREAMS! :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
Frank
So very cool Frank...Kudos! You did a hell of a job putting it all together. You deserve it. :hi:
Did they leave the cam overlap alone and just do the FCR tuning?? IIRC you have the MegaCycle street grind cams...
well done mate, and congrats to randy for another awesome build,, im too scared to ask how much $$$
Quote from: fj11.5 on March 03, 2013, 09:00:31 PM
im too scared to ask how much $$$
Me too! :wacko1:
Frank
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 03, 2013, 08:18:50 PM
Did they leave the cam overlap alone and just do the FCR tuning?? IIRC you have the MegaCycle street grind cams...
Yes to general tune and yes to cams. They fooled with some stuff, but best and flattest torque was with stock overlap apparently. I'm benefitting from big valves and the port/polish, but we have a rev thirsty motor which is not the usual FJ. I'm delighted to have a different beast.
Frank
Great job Frank, :good2:
you have taken great strides with that fj/r1 big bore beastie .
Are you happy with the out come or do you have more mods in mind?
It is a great example of upgrades to an old bike made new.
Quote from: Mark Olson on March 04, 2013, 12:30:26 PM
Are you happy with the out come or do you have more mods in mind?
I am delighted for now and still learning what I have here exactly. I was initially concerned that I wouldn't have enough brakes after this engine was on full boil, but I rode pretty hard yesterday and I can bring the speed down quite nicely with 1 finger. Good to go there.
I should be happy for some time anyway, but never say never to more mods... :wacko2: :crazy: :wacko1:
Frank
So the Dunlop Q2 gave up the ghost... it did wear nicely and I think I'll get more Q2s in the future.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8379/8529108619_5b03c0957b.jpg)
I put on my Dunlop Roadsmarts on the bad-ass black rims. Looks pretty good I think...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8529109609_c9224b5933.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8110/8529110251_de709c074a.jpg)
2 sets of rims is one of the nice things I was able to pick up from Rittner. Makes life easy when your monster motor eats a tire prematurely.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on March 04, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
2 sets of rims is one of the nice things I was able to pick up from Rittner. Makes life easy when your monster motor eats a tire prematurely.
Frank
Damn, I knew I should have kept the second FZR1000 front wheel.. :dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
I'm just guessing here, but, I don't think it's the front tire that the 1350 wears out...
i dont have a monster engine, but i do have black rims :biggrin: ,, much nicer than white or perywinkle :lol:
Doing mine black... No rainbow perywinkle inside or out..... :good: :good:
George
Black rims rock! :good2:
I'll be interested to see what they look like on your '90, George. Since I had three sets of black YZF600 rims already, that's what is going on my '90 project bike.
Quote from: not a lib on March 05, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
Black rims rock! :good2:
I'll be interested to see what they look like on your '90, George. Since I had three sets of black YZF600 rims already, that's what is going on my '90 project bike.
Ask and you will receive :drinks:
(http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1143/picture049s.jpg)
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/6994/picture048y.jpg)
And that's what a silky white looks like with black rims...
CraigO
Quote from: craigo on March 05, 2013, 09:56:33 AM
Quote from: not a lib on March 05, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
Black rims rock! :good2:
I'll be interested to see what they look like on your '90, George. Since I had three sets of black YZF600 rims already, that's what is going on my '90 project bike.
Ask and you will receive :drinks:
And that's what a silky white looks like with black rims...
CraigO
Nice... thanks, Craig! :good2:
The project begins as soon as I get back from Bike Week. :yes:
Dang Frank,
You have a beautiful bike there. I'm sure I have said so in the past, but that is gorgeous!!!! :good:
CraigO
Quote from: craigo on March 05, 2013, 10:23:13 AM
a beautiful bike there...
Thanks Craig. I do have to pull myself away from just staring at it sometimes (I like it too). Best part is I think it rides better than it looks now. Well beyond my capabilities to exploit, but it is confidence inspiring and stable at my current pace... and 100% fun!
It is also just a happy machine these days (wife says it should be!). Last time I was out riding it was pointed out my HID light was not working. I looked it over and found a fuse that looked a bit funky. Pulled it out and cleaned it a bit and viola... let there be light! It's so much nicer when the bike wants to work instead of wanting to break (I know... but this bike deserves a personality).
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on March 04, 2013, 04:17:38 PM
Quote from: Mark Olson on March 04, 2013, 12:30:26 PM
Are you happy with the out come or do you have more mods in mind?
I am delighted for now and still learning what I have here exactly. I was initially concerned that I wouldn't have enough brakes after this engine was on full boil, but I rode pretty hard yesterday and I can bring the speed down quite nicely with 1 finger. Good to go there.
I should be happy for some time anyway, but never say never to more mods... :wacko2: :crazy: :wacko1:
Frank
yeah, I remember andy f. getting me on video saying no more mods I was gonna stop and draw my line in the sand ..... well the tide came in and washed that line away.
you need a chin faring on that bike to enhance it's looks.
Hi Frank, what did you use for the rear set pegs?
Can you post some close up pics of the pegs from both sides, especially the right side showing the exhaust attachment?
Also, a pic showing the pegs from the back ?
Thanks
Tony
Quote from: Antonn3 on March 05, 2013, 08:20:15 PM
Can you post some close up pics of the pegs from both sides
Not really very close, but you get the idea. The hangers and pegs are early R1. The subframe has been modified to have welded on mounts for them and the right side is the exhaust hanger for the single side R1 exhaust.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8532124445_fa05144b2b_b.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8532125467_16f88a65a9_b.jpg)
Here are some pics from before the heart came out...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5148/5614497473_f6de7bb985_b.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5265/5615077294_bf2f19634b_b.jpg)
You can clearly see how the stock side plates are cut away to just what's needed for the front pegs and rear brake components.
Frank
Damn it Frank.... I don't have that kind of money.. :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: But I want it sooooo bad.... Looking forward to the WCR, I will try not to snore too much, do you think they have any primates in the petting zoo?
Mark, I remember that roadside stop well and how we all nearly fell into another dimension as Mr Olson delivered his 'never to be heard again' statement. Which, incidentally he immediately retracted as clouds began to gather signaling the approach of those apocalyptic horse men.
Luckily we outran them on Salmon Falls road.
Quote from: andyoutandabout on March 06, 2013, 02:03:03 AM
Mark, I remember that roadside stop well and how we all nearly fell into another dimension as Mr Olson delivered his 'never to be heard again' statement. Which, incidentally he immediately retracted as clouds began to gather signaling the approach of those apocalyptic horse men.
Luckily we outran them on Salmon Falls road.
I know it was wrong when I said it..... denial is not just a river in Egypt. :wacko1:
OK, so here's the graph finally... never did fix scanner.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5348/9148719804_2f0f7f37f4.jpg)
and the data again:
RPM Hp Tq Hp - "stock +" delta Hp % over stock
3000 23.2 40.7 25.3 -2.1 -8.30%
4000 40.9 53.7 44.3 -3.4 -7.67%
5000 57.2 60.1 54.7 2.5 4.57%
6000 86.5 75.6 72.3 14.2 19.64%
7000 106.9 80.3 84.9 22 25.91%
8000 119.3 78.3 94.8 24.5 25.84%
9000 128.3 74.9 97.5 30.8 31.59%
9500 130 71.9 94.9 35.1 36.99%
"stock +" is a stock FJ with an exhaust. Bear in mind these are Factory Pro Dyno (Eddy Current type) numbers, so comparison to Dynojet is not a simple task. Looking at it relative to a nicely tuned Mikuni based stock engine (the "stock +" bike was there for tuning, so presumably this was already a solid FJ) gives an objective baseline.
The Wizard is just a delightful bike that runs like a hose... It feels so unconstrained in the high RPM range compared to before (with pods and Akra exhaust). A nearly 40% increase in HP for a 161/1188 or ~15% increase in displacement! Great job Randy!
Frank
I just dynoed my 1314 today (on a non happy Dynojet unit). Actual (noncorrected) RWHP 156.7 with 93.2 torque. My stock gen 1 busa produced basically the same #'s. The only work I didn't perform on the engine was cylinder boring, milling/decking, valve job and trans undercutting. The air was so good the Correction Factor was negative which resulted in slighty less corrected RWHP than actual RWHP. Doesn't happen that often.
OK.....how about a pic of the chart? Pick and choose around here.
Mike, I'd love to see it....can I help?
Quote from: JMR on September 29, 2013, 07:12:42 PM
OK.....how about a pic of the chart? Pick and choose around here.
Are you asking for a pic of my dyno sheets... never thought of it, but I'd think it would be pretty poor quality. I'll try it though...
The table I gave had only 1 interpolation point though, the values were printed right on the dyno sheet. I had to calculate one of the points for some reason... I'll remember shortly.
Frank
Quote from: JMR on September 29, 2013, 07:12:42 PM
OK.....how about a pic of the chart?
Here's what the dyno sheets look like:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3741/10013307224_b2354241f4_c.jpg)
Here's Wizard's Hp/Tq and some AFR proxy with no scale (looks like it is CO):
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/10013306324_389af07220_c.jpg)
Here's Wizard compared to two 1188cc FJ's with pipe and tune (blue and green are different FJs)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7441/10013373906_51e883ff86_c.jpg)
Here's the table I used to make my graph...
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/10013306534_063635f133_c.jpg)
I thought my Excel graph was accurate enough, but porn quality was low admittedly. Now you can see the stains from my excessive handling for yourselves... :blush:
Sorry I didn't think of the pics... :dash2:
Frank
Quote from: JMR on September 29, 2013, 07:12:42 PM
OK.....how about a pic of the chart? Pick and choose around here.
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/jmrporting/IMG_2489_zpsa4ae80aa.jpg) (http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/jmrporting/media/IMG_2489_zpsa4ae80aa.jpg.html)
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/jmrporting/IMG_2490_zps579001a2.jpg) (http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/jmrporting/media/IMG_2490_zps579001a2.jpg.html)
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/jmrporting/IMG_2492_zps42a30dd8.jpg) (http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/jmrporting/media/IMG_2492_zps42a30dd8.jpg.html)
Others might want to chime in, but these graphs don't look very healthy to me. The big drop at 4K must be a real bitch as well, that's typically where you're rolling on out of a corner (if you ride like me I guess) and just where you don't want the bike to go limp. AFR curve tells you you've gone totally lean there and that's not good for the engine at all! Then you go rich over the next 2000 RPM and it looks like the bike struggles to get into the power. This is likely the transition from pilots to main jets (maybe Randy can suggest some changes).
The peak Hp looks solid though... good AFR, so you're probably getting about all there is to get (more timing might give you a bit more Hp, but not much). I'd say you are flow limited above about 8,500 RPM which is one of the really big advantages of Randy's build... my motor is still flowing more when the throttle is cut at 9,400 RPM (my instructions were 9,500 RPM max for tuning). 39mm FCR Carbs, big valves, port matching, port polishing, and bigger cam in action...
All-in-all it looks like you could benefit from some tuning, especially in low end drivability. Ideally you want a pretty flat AFR, maybe a bit rich in the lower range to prevent detonation. Once that curve is flat you can fiddle with timing to optimize Hp while avoiding detonation.
Thanks for posting... I love this stuff.
Frank
PS - Very nice looking bike!
The engine has OS intakes/exhaust, Web 81-221 cams, porting, intake seats bored to 90% of valve OD etc etc. It also has FCR 39's. One of the problems with the initial leanness is the sudden loss of vacuum when whacking the throttle wide open at low RPM's. Low vacuum makes it difficult to get fuel moving through any circuit. That and the shitty accelerator pump that comes with FCR's with extremely limited starting point and duration adjustments. You see the lean go to rich as the pump dumps raw fuel into the engine....it starts to clear its throat about 6000. This is very, very typical on smoothbore carbs and is known as the "RS dip" from Mikuni fame. I have run 36's 38's and 40's and always seen this on the dyno with this bike and many others. I would adjust the pump start time and really limit the duration to reduce the injection of raw fuel....it smoothed it out but still it was there. It also eliminated the initial leanness. The FCR pump is very limited IMO in both of these areas. The Mikuni TMR pump is the best I have seen but it should be as they are a much more recent design over the 25 year old FCR's and RS's. As an aside...try working with CR's with no accelerator pump. Anyway...the FCR pump can be made to start earlier to a degree which will help. On the road I seldom go WO @ 3500RPM.....in general the throttle is rolled on which eliminates the problem with sudden vacuum loss. There is no bogging going on anywhere to be honest. I found the slight dip @ 8,000 interesting....I believe it was the clutch starting to let go a bit or wheelspin ( which there were some problems with).
The pilot air screws can be turned out about 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn based on idling AF and the needle dropped a notch or maybe .020.
I wouldn't say it is flow limited above 8500...cam timing is the ubiquitous Yoshimura 105/105. I could move it 106/108 which would add some to the top and give more of a peak. The big thing is it is making well over 150 HP at around 8500 and holding it to about 10,500....there is no drop off at all. I see this all the time with the old CB750's and CB550's as it is a single cam that does not allow for seperate intake and exhaust cam timing.
I find the Factory 997 charts interesting as it plots point to point over 1000 RPM intervals apparently with a lot of smoothing. I wonder what a chart would look like with a lousy chain etc. It is very noticeable on the Dynojet chart with a large saw tooth pattern.
I have charts from my Hayabusa and RC51 that are flat lined secondary to FI. Carbs work OK but there is always some kind of compromise...at least that is what I have found over the last 35 years.
I looked around for the difference between Dynojet and 997 #'s....I found 15% reported by Sport Rider in an article printed some years ago.
Thanks for the compliment on the bike...you should see my 1000cc 75 CB750F. You FJ is very nice as well...always liked Akra pipes as I have installed quite a few.
Quote from: JMR on October 07, 2013, 07:52:04 AM
I find the Factory 997 charts interesting as it plots point to point over 1000 RPM intervals apparently with a lot of smoothing.
Fair enough on the sudden throttle opening, but I've fixed this myself on Webers by tuning accelerator pump volume and duration... not sure you can't get it better than what you've got. Only you can say when your quest is complete.
The eddy current dyno is a different beast... Instead of a "pull" like on an inertia dyno, they increase load and open the throttle while holding a constant RPM. The max power for that RPM is then recorded and that's your power at that point. Each RPM generates a little "pull" of its own and that's where the jet sizing changes are determined (as I understand it anyway).
To be honest, this is my first experience with an EC dyno. Someday I'll get Wizard on an inertia dyno to see a graph more comparable to yours. For now it sounds like we're both pretty happy with our FJs and that's a good thing! :yahoo:
Quote from: Flynt on October 07, 2013, 10:14:34 AM
Quote from: JMR on October 07, 2013, 07:52:04 AM
I find the Factory 997 charts interesting as it plots point to point over 1000 RPM intervals apparently with a lot of smoothing.
Fair enough on the sudden throttle opening, but I've fixed this myself on Webers by tuning accelerator pump volume and duration... not sure you can't get it better than what you've got. Only you can say when your quest is complete.
The eddy current dyno is a different beast... Instead of a "pull" like on an inertia dyno, they increase load and open the throttle while holding a constant RPM. The max power for that RPM is then recorded and that's your power at that point. Each RPM generates a little "pull" of its own and that's where the jet sizing changes are determined (as I understand it anyway).
To be honest, this is my first experience with an EC dyno. Someday I'll get Wizard on an inertia dyno to see a graph more comparable to yours. For now it sounds like we're both pretty happy with our FJs and that's a good thing! :yahoo:
Lots of meaningful adustability with Webers. Also with the Mikuni RS's. I'll be pulling the FCR's and look at the linkage again.
So the new heart has just crossed through 10,000 miles and Wizard continues to run like a hose... Combine that with the beautiful dry winter we're having and you've got pics like this in my driveway... a typical post-ride cosmetic cleanup complete with beer refreshment for the rider.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7307/12531336993_0dcb10cb58_c.jpg)
Ride on gentlemen!
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on February 14, 2014, 08:36:28 PM
So the new heart has just crossed through 10,000 miles and Wizard continues to run like a hose... Combine that with the beautiful dry winter we're having and you've got pics like this in my driveway... a typical cosmetic cleanup with beer refreshment for the rider.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7307/12531336993_0dcb10cb58_c.jpg)
Ride on gentlemen!
Frank
Is that a Racer 5???? You Bastard!!!. Or worse a Hoppyland???? Grrrrrr.. I can get Racer 5... But a Hoppy... I need to visit more often...
Quote from: FJmonkey on February 14, 2014, 08:40:36 PM
Quote from: Flynt on February 14, 2014, 08:36:28 PM
So the new heart has just crossed through 10,000 miles and Wizard continues to run like a hose... Combine that with the beautiful dry winter we're having and you've got pics like this in my driveway... a typical cosmetic cleanup with beer refreshment for the rider.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7307/12531336993_0dcb10cb58_c.jpg)
Ride on gentlemen!
Frank
Is that a Racer 5???? You Bastard!!!. Or worse a Hoppyland???? Grrrrrr..
Guess again my Simian friend... Hint - It's a Sierra Nevada product.
Frank
PS - please visit more often.
Celebration Ale??? I still have about 5 Gal...
yep... bring it up and you can help work on the z. You still in mexico? Post up some bull fights or something. :yahoo:
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on February 14, 2014, 08:50:05 PM
yep... bring it up and you can help work on the z. You still in mexico? Post up some bull fights or something. :yahoo:
Frank
Back in the States now, 1.5 weeks and loving being home. Mexico is a wonderful place to visit... But I don't want to live there...
Quote from: Flynt on October 07, 2013, 10:14:34 AM
Quote from: JMR on October 07, 2013, 07:52:04 AM
I find the Factory 997 charts interesting as it plots point to point over 1000 RPM intervals apparently with a lot of smoothing.
Fair enough on the sudden throttle opening, but I've fixed this myself on Webers by tuning accelerator pump volume and duration... not sure you can't get it better than what you've got. Only you can say when your quest is complete.
The eddy current dyno is a different beast... Instead of a "pull" like on an inertia dyno, they increase load and open the throttle while holding a constant RPM. The max power for that RPM is then recorded and that's your power at that point. Each RPM generates a little "pull" of its own and that's where the jet sizing changes are determined (as I understand it anyway).
To be honest, this is my first experience with an EC dyno. Someday I'll get Wizard on an inertia dyno to see a graph more comparable to yours. For now it sounds like we're both pretty happy with our FJs and that's a good thing! :yahoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZl5yX3_0yg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZl5yX3_0yg)
There's an example of an EC dyno being used. If you listen, you'll hear the revs come up and then quiver and stabilize. They can get closer resolution (250rpm steps or whatever), but it's more abusive to the hardware, and generally not necessary. The real joy of this type of dyno is that they can also do a test at 20%, 50%, etc throttle positions. It's a very powerful tool in the right hands.
Quote from: JMR on October 07, 2013, 07:52:04 AM
I looked around for the difference between Dynojet and 997 #'s....I found 15% reported by Sport Rider in an article printed some years ago.
You may find this link (http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html) rewarding reading, then.
Akrapovic pipe was sourced from UK, where those lads are mad for XJR1300's. Still the bitchinest pipe ever for an FJ.