Are there any effective windage trays out there for the 1200? I have seen one (in a pic) in the past.
OK....I emailed HSR. Is that a dirty word around here?
I think you lost them at "windage trays". :mail1:
Sorry, I missed the first post...
I have never seen one.
HSR makes an oil pan baffle to try and "control" oil flow and slosh away from the pick-up screen but that is all he has.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on December 16, 2011, 08:44:24 PM
Sorry, I missed the first post...
I have never seen one.
HSR makes an oil pan baffle to try and "control" oil flow and slosh away from the pick-up screen but that is all he has.
Randy - RPM
That is exactly what I'm looking for Randy. "Windage Tray" is really not the correct term but it is generic. Oil control at the pick up level is what I'm talking about. The beauty of the old CB750's is the factory dry sump system. The CB is my bread and butter to the point I make heavily finned alloy cylinders for 1000cc displacement with Nikasil bores. They are not the old RC blocks.
HSR is sending one out. I am surprised more guys with street bikes haven't experienced the oil movement probelem I have encountered.
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 07:07:40 AM
HSR is sending one out. I am surprised more guys with street bikes haven't experienced the oil movement probelem I have encountered.
we have encountered the oil movement thing but personally i dont consider it a "problem"
KOokaloo!
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 07:07:40 AM
HSR is sending one out. I am surprised more guys with street bikes haven't experienced the oil movement probelem I have encountered.
The oil level light coming on is not loss of oil pressure.
Quote from: ribbert on December 21, 2011, 08:18:35 AM
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 07:07:40 AM
HSR is sending one out. I am surprised more guys with street bikes haven't experienced the oil movement probelem I have encountered.
The oil level light coming on is not loss of oil pressure.
How can you say that for sure? Do you have an accurate oil pressure gauge to absolutely know for sure or are you just pointing out the difference between a level gauge and a pressure gauge? All the oil is moving to the back of the engine (in the case of hard acceleration) which means it isn't gathered around the pick up. Modern oil pans have very deep sections with long pick up tubes...the baffling in the FJ pan is basically nonexistent. On very mild inclines and under full throttle acceleration I can have that light on from 1st through 3rd gear.......that is a long time.
A quote from HSR to me in an email......"Yes, I do.
I made them for the FJ1200/1300 for the Baby Grand Stock-cars under long sweeping right handers the pressure would fall. It's about 78.00 comes with pan Gaskets and directions. It has a tray & baffle."
I think that validates my point.
Just out of curiosity JMR, at what level in the sight glass do you keep your oil level? I always fill mine up to the top line or just above.
I have only experienced this sloshing of oil to the back of the engine once, and that was when i was waiting at some traffic lights and facing uphill.
I don't have the problem now as i've only got a separate speedometer and no standard gauges to warn me. :biggrin:
my 1349 engine with lightened crank accelerates faster than anything i have ever been (semi) in control of and my oil light will not come on under any acceleration situation.
However my rear ride height is increased over stock which tips the engine forward as well as improving the handling.
maybe you rear shock needs an upgrade to keep the bike from squatting so much on a hard launch?
those baby grand cars sit the engine sideways as well and who knows at what angle?... completely different setup from the bike for sure.
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on December 21, 2011, 11:45:47 AM
my 1349 engine with lightened crank accelerates faster than anything i have ever been (semi) in control of and my oil light will not come on under any acceleration situation.
However my rear ride height is increased over stock which tips the engine forward as well as improving the handling.
maybe you rear shock needs an upgrade to keep the bike from squatting so much on a hard launch?
those baby grand cars sit the engine sideways as well and who knows at what angle?... completely different setup from the bike for sure.
KOokaloo!
I run an Ohlins rear shock (custom length remote preload adjuster) with a heavier Hyperco spring. Front is all Racetech with the tubes dropped a bit. Oil is run at the upper level mark and set with the bike on a level Handy bike lift. Several level gauges have been used with the same result. I am assuming but I have to imagine the cars run the engines very close to level if they are using a wet sump system. A dry sump may allow different placement.
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
I run an Ohlins rear shock (custom length remote preload adjuster) with a heavier Hyperco spring. Front is all Racetech with the tubes dropped a bit. Oil is run at the upper level mark and set with the bike on a level Handy bike lift. Several level gauges have been used with the same result. I am assuming but I have to imagine the cars run the engines very close to level if they are using a wet sump system. A dry sump may allow different placement.
Custom length shock ? so where is your ride height?
for comparison say if the bike is on the centerstand is the rear wheel touching the ground?
if the oil is running to the back of the pan that much there has to be something else going on if the engine is not leaning back... maybe the wiring from the oil level sending unit?
KOokaloo!
This comment should be the answer to your own question...Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 07:07:40 AM
I am surprised more guys with street bikes haven't experienced the oil movement problem I have encountered.
Since no one else, either bike or car, is having problems; it is not a problem...As just a quick example; every Legend or Thunder Roadster car that finished in the top five at a 2011 national oval or road course event had the oil pan removed to inspect for baffles. There was not a single one of those cars that had one installed, that is a total of 40 cars/engines that do not have that "baffle" and they do not have oil problems. :unknown: I wonder how they do it with out that "baffle"?
Oh wait, it's not a problem :ireful:If your oil light is on it is more about your "oil level sending unit" float not floating to the correct level or your viscosity is gone.
I can tell you that I would never spend a dime on one of those "baffles". If oil starvation was a problem then they would never last in a race car going around in a circle with gravity pulling the oil away from the pickup screen, just like you accelerating, only 100 times more G-force.
The G-force is so strong that a hose must be run from the breather fitting on the case to a remote one quart overflow/breather bottle because the oil level fills the front cover breather passages and it pushes the oil out the breather. You will never experience anything close to that on you bike unless you can get your FJ up on a 125 mph wheelie for 1/4 mile.
As far as oil level, we have to check oil level with the engine running because oil the amount of oil cooler volume and the drain back.
I run my oil, in my race cars, at the bottom line with the engine/oil hot. Sure the oil pressure gauge drops under acceleration & turning, but it has never been an issue.
If the oil pressure was a concern for Yamaha you would be able to find a "oil pressure specification for idle and a specified engine RPM", but you will never find one.
From my experience the average oil pressure for an FJ at idle when warm is 3 lbs and the 2500 rpm range is about 20-25 lbs. Sure, HSR sell a "kit" that they make that makes the oil pressure "higher", but if you really want to see the oil pressure numbers higher, install the oil pressure fitting on the pressure side of the oil filter before the pressure drop of the filter. You will see numbers above 50 lbs pretty regularly.
(Hmmm, I wonder where his oil pressure fitting is located... :scratch_one-s_head:)
One last point, and I am telling you this as a FJ engine builder, not a "FJ performance engine builder, part manufacture & seller", if you really look at the position of the oil level sensor you will see that the sensor is approximately 1.5" higher then the level of the pickup screen, so just because the light is on doesn't mean it is starving for oil.
Once you get that baffle and get it mounted, take a good hard look and then realize when the oil does pass between the small gap left around the pan at the baffle to the top of the baffle; it will just sit on top of that baffle until you decelerate and force it forward over the front of the baffle and back into the sump.
Thus the reason I never had and never will never use one...
Damn...Two pieces of aluminum and a gasket $78.00 :nea:
Oh yea, one more thing that really makes me wonder :unknown: and is a case of "
monkey see, monkey do"... HSR and 99% of the other performance race car engine builders like to "shim" the oil pressure "relief" valves to "raise" oil pressure. One question that no one has or ever will answer for me;
How does increasing the "relief" pressure raise the oil circuit pressure?The oil pressure has to reach a certain level before the relief dumps the pressure, so how does shimming it actually raise the pressure. If you just shim the "reliefs" like they do and change nothing else, the oil pressure gauge will read the same.
(
HINT: They are relief valves not pressure regulators... :dash2:)
But hey, they are selling parts...Isn't there an old saying about a "man & his money..."?
Randy - RPM
LOL Randy.... Ken told me when i inquired about installing an oil pressure gauge on my engine.... he said
"an oil pressure gauge would just scare you" and " dont worry about oil pressure.... oil temp. is much more important on this engine"
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerrad8 on December 21, 2011, 02:36:53 PM
This comment should be the answer to your own question...
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 07:07:40 AM
I am surprised more guys with street bikes haven't experienced the oil movement problem I have encountered.
Since no one else, either bike or car, is having problems; it is not a problem...
As just a quick example; every Legend or Thunder Roadster car that finished in the top five at a 2011 national oval or road course event had the oil pan removed to inspect for baffles. There was not a single one of those cars that had one installed, that is a total of 40 cars/engines that do not have that "baffle" and they do not have oil problems. :unknown: I wonder how they do it with out that "baffle"? Oh wait, it's not a problem :ireful:
If your oil light is on it is more about your "oil level sending unit" float not floating to the correct level or your viscosity is gone.
I can tell you that I would never spend a dime on one of those "baffles". If oil starvation was a problem then they would never last in a race car going around in a circle with gravity pulling the oil away from the pickup screen, just like you accelerating, only 100 times more G-force.
The G-force is so strong that a hose must be run from the breather fitting on the case to a remote one quart overflow/breather bottle because the oil level fills the front cover breather passages and it pushes the oil out the breather. You will never experience anything close to that on you bike unless you can get your FJ up on a 125 mph wheelie for 1/4 mile.
As far as oil level, we have to check oil level with the engine running because oil the amount of oil cooler volume and the drain back.
I run my oil, in my race cars, at the bottom line with the engine/oil hot. Sure the oil pressure gauge drops under acceleration & turning, but it has never been an issue.
If the oil pressure was a concern for Yamaha you would be able to find a "oil pressure specification for idle and a specified engine RPM", but you will never find one.
From my experience the average oil pressure for an FJ at idle when warm is 3 lbs and the 2500 rpm range is about 20-25 lbs. Sure, HSR sell a "kit" that they make that makes the oil pressure "higher", but if you really want to see the oil pressure numbers higher, install the oil pressure fitting on the pressure side of the oil filter before the pressure drop of the filter. You will see numbers above 50 lbs pretty regularly.
(Hmmm, I wonder where his oil pressure fitting is located... :scratch_one-s_head:)
One last point, and I am telling you this as a FJ engine builder, not a "FJ performance engine builder, part manufacture & seller", if you really look at the position of the oil level sensor you will see that the sensor is approximately 1.5" higher then the level of the pickup screen, so just because the light is on doesn't mean it is starving for oil.
Once you get that baffle and get it mounted, take a good hard look and then realize when the oil does pass between the small gap left around the pan at the baffle to the top of the baffle; it will just sit on top of that baffle until you decelerate and force it forward over the front of the baffle and back into the sump.
Thus the reason I never had and never will never use one...
Damn...Two pieces of aluminum and a gasket $78.00 :nea:
Oh yea, one more thing that really makes me wonder :unknown: and is a case of "monkey see, monkey do"... HSR and 99% of the other performance race car engine builders like to "shim" the oil pressure "relief" valves to "raise" oil pressure. One question that no one has or ever will answer for me; How does increasing the "relief" pressure raise the oil circuit pressure?
The oil pressure has to reach a certain level before the relief dumps the pressure, so how does shimming it actually raise the pressure. If you just shim the "reliefs" like they does and change nothing else, the oil pressure gauge will read the same.
(HINT: They are relief valves not pressure regulators... :dash2:)
But hey, they are selling parts...Isn't there an old saying about a "man & his money..."?
Randy - RPM
I believe you are referring to "A fool and his money". If you want to imply I'm stupid please use the correct phrase otherwise everybody looks foolish. I do not build legend engines but I do build engines. And port. And produce CNC billet cylinders etc. Sorry if I hit a raw nerve......you seem like a nice enough fella and I have ordered parts from you as well. People certainly have different opinions on how things should be done and what parts should be used. I have been at it awhile and found if there was only one way to port a head or build an engine 1 person would have done it and everybody would have copied them.
Quote from: racerman_27410 on December 21, 2011, 12:53:32 PM
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
I run an Ohlins rear shock (custom length remote preload adjuster) with a heavier Hyperco spring. Front is all Racetech with the tubes dropped a bit. Oil is run at the upper level mark and set with the bike on a level Handy bike lift. Several level gauges have been used with the same result. I am assuming but I have to imagine the cars run the engines very close to level if they are using a wet sump system. A dry sump may allow different placement.
Custom length shock ? so where is your ride height?
for comparison say if the bike is on the centerstand is the rear wheel touching the ground?
if the oil is running to the back of the pan that much there has to be something else going on if the engine is not leaning back... maybe the wiring from the oil level sending unit?
KOokaloo!
No...just the remote preload adjuster line is different from the Ohlins original. The original line is very short. I used a Ohlins line meant for a GSXR remote. Very accessible mounted to a plate that is bolted to the right OEM muffler mount.
Quote from: JMR on December 21, 2011, 05:40:40 PM
I do not build legend engines but I do build engines. And port. And produce CNC billet cylinders etc. Sorry if I hit a raw nerve......you seem like a nice enough fella and I have ordered parts from you as well. People certainly have different opinions on how things should be done and what parts should be used. I have been at it awhile and found if there was only one way to port a head or build an engine 1 person would have done it and everybody would have copied them.
I am sorry if I came across as trite, but I just don't understand how people sell things that look all fancy and cool, but they really do not give the purchaser the true benefit of that product. I am not questioning your ability to do engine work, but really do ask that you give that plate a full process of thought and what it is supposed to do and like I said, sure it will slow the oil down, but in both directions.
I guess it really boils down to personal preference and I have nothing against you or anyone else for that matter. I would just have an appreciation for this type of product if the was an issue that needed to be addressed; similar to shim the pressure relief valves to increase oil pressure.
Upgrades and modifications that repair a problem, like the 2nd gear issue the engine were notorious for are a no question decision.
Like you said, if the way engines were built and heads are ported could never get any better then we would all have the same thing because we copied each other. But, there is always ways to improve a product in one fashion or another. If you are able to take that product and truly make it into a baffle system that will hold oil at the pick-up and not just slow it down, but allow for oil to return back to the area required without any restrictions, you will truly have something.
Back in the 80's I was building V8 engine oil pans with windage trays, flap doors & external ports with check valves and I did a lot of testing in fluid dynamics. I can see a possible issue with the baffle the way it is designed that might actually slow the oil flow back to the pick up screen and be detrimental to your engine.
Also, this is not an attack on Hank, he is a friend of mine. When I went to NC back in 2010, he was the only person that would not let me pay for my meal when we went to lunch, everyone else was either dutch or I paid. We talk regularly and there are a few things about the FJ engine we disagree on and one of them is the "oil system". But, we each have our way of doing things and we are both successful at what we do.
If I have offended you with my initial reply, for that I apologize as that was not my intention. My intention was to inform, based on my total years of experience and give you my opinion; which is pretty strong on this subject.
Randy - RPM
I have personally seen a 200,000 mile totally original FJ..... and plenty of hard ridden 100K FJs... not one had windage trays
just regular oil changes and valve clearance checks :biggrin:
of course you are free to do whatever you feel is best... we're just trying to help not judge. :good2:
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerrad8 on December 21, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
If I have offended you with my initial reply, for that I apologize as that was not my intention. My intention was to inform, based on my total years of experience and give you my opinion; which is pretty strong on this subject.
Randy - RPM
Thanks for that reply....it does not go unappreciated. I will certainly look this plate over thoroughly and have some other very knowledgeable friends check it out as well. I tried to find a pic but I could not locate one (though I'm sure one exists somewhere). If I find it unworkable stock or modified it will go on ebay. I remember Smokey Yunick talking about wet sump systems and how they ultimately could not cope with very fast banked tracks. That is with, as you mentioned, trap doors, swivel pickups etc, etc. Heavily modified drag Hayabusa's have had problems with oil at the pickup and many of the same old "tricks" are being used (not all of them successful I would add). Personally the deep sump systems seen on everything from modern 600's, 750's etc to MotoGP use this wet sump design and I have never had an oil starvation related problem on the roadracing engines I have worked on. Plenty of bonehead rider/ "I think I'm a mechanic" failures but that is another story.
In my experience one of the best production motorcycle oil systems I have ever worked with are the dry sump systems found on the old SOHC CB750. Certainly more complex but a well designed system with great oil feed consistency. I have worked on hundreds and built more of those engines than I can remember but....that to is another story.
I am late to this party , but would still like to throw in my 2 cents.
If you get a oil light on acceleration then you are tuned correctly. :good2:
The uphill light thing happens on steep grades and high g-forces .
fill the oil to the top of the window after you warmed the engine up so the filter is full and engine is off.
this is what I do cause I got a big ass spin on filter.
Randy. About this pressure fitting, I'm about to change my oil and would like to try that trick to raise my oil pressure.Could you explain further? Any pics? Thanks, Brian
Quote from: Mark Olson on December 29, 2011, 11:43:13 PM
I am late to this party , but would still like to throw in my 2 cents.
If you get a oil light on acceleration then you are tuned correctly. :good2:
The uphill light thing happens on steep grades and high g-forces .
fill the oil to the top of the window after you warmed the engine up so the filter is full and engine is off.
this is what I do cause I got a big ass spin on filter.
The engine has over 150 to the rear wheel. It posted 210 when I had the nitrous hooked up.
Quote from: 88 gtu on January 02, 2012, 09:22:18 PM
Randy. About this pressure fitting, I'm about to change my oil and would like to try that trick to raise my oil pressure.Could you explain further? Any pics? Thanks, Brian
Brian,
There is no way to raise the oil pressure without tightening up the internal clearances.
If you are referring to the galley play adapter(fitting), its only function is to allow you to install an oil pressure gauge.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: JMR on January 03, 2012, 09:46:18 AM
Quote from: Mark Olson on December 29, 2011, 11:43:13 PM
I am late to this party , but would still like to throw in my 2 cents.
If you get a oil light on acceleration then you are tuned correctly. :good2:
The uphill light thing happens on steep grades and high g-forces .
fill the oil to the top of the window after you warmed the engine up so the filter is full and engine is off.
this is what I do cause I got a big ass spin on filter.
The engine has over 150 to the rear wheel. It posted 210 when I had the nitrous hooked up.
ahaa new information , so with that kind of kick you are for sure gonna get a oil light.
Quote from: Mark Olson on January 03, 2012, 01:46:12 PM
Quote from: JMR on January 03, 2012, 09:46:18 AM
Quote from: Mark Olson on December 29, 2011, 11:43:13 PM
I am late to this party , but would still like to throw in my 2 cents.
If you get a oil light on acceleration then you are tuned correctly. :good2:
The uphill light thing happens on steep grades and high g-forces .
fill the oil to the top of the window after you warmed the engine up so the filter is full and engine is off.
this is what I do cause I got a big ass spin on filter.
The engine has over 150 to the rear wheel. It posted 210 when I had the nitrous hooked up.
ahaa new information , so with that kind of kick you are for sure gonna get a oil light.
Yes Mark....assumption is the leading element to ....well assumption. If I had a nickel for every time somebody in the industry said......
.I never heard of that. That is from Sudco on to everybody else. I have been in this industry over 35 years.....
r heard of that
you never know what you never know.