Today's Tragedy:
Stripped the oil drain plug on my 1993 FJ1200. HELP! I've never had to Helicoil before. Can someone give me advice? I have a tap and die set, I have a drill. How do I go about this? What size insert do I need? Should I use something other then a Helicoil?
I'm thinking I'll pull the oil pan, drill it out with a hand drill (no drill presses among anyone I know), tap it, insert the insert, then race the bike like I'm chased by a banshee.
Seriously, I'm very worried about doing this. My bike lives on the streets of brooklyn so I have to do things all at once. If I pull off the oil pan I need to put in the insert and reinstall the pan pretty quick or crud WILL get in the engine.
I don't have much money, haven't even paid September rent yet. I almost gave up on the bike! I can afford the helicoil insert but not a lot else.
If I compare this bike to my past bikes the FJ is one tragedy after another, but it's the most fun to ride! I really want to ride it! Sorry if this post is less then eloquent, my head is still spinning. I had a lot of plans for this bike this weekend and I have NO OTHER TRANSPORTATION! I live in NYC and the L train is out this weekend (and last weekend, AND the weekend before that!)!
Help if you can! All help appreciated! Thanks!
Hi David.
I recently had the same problem and also considered helicoil but after asking for advice from a number of sources the concensus was to change the whole sump.When I pulled the sump off and looked at the thread on the sump plug hole the thread does not go all the way.Theres a notch in it that I think is there to allow as much oil as possible to drain out,and this I think would make helicoil installation difficult and may not allow the insert to stay put.Maybe you should do a temporary "fix" until a replacement sump and gasket can be found(ebay..etc}.My temporary solution was plumbers thread string which worked quite well.Would seep a little when hot but no big problem.
this is the stuff
http://www.screwfix.com/p/loctite-55-pipe-seal-cord-50m/42142 (http://www.screwfix.com/p/loctite-55-pipe-seal-cord-50m/42142)
Goodluck & cheers :drinks:
David,
Over a 16 year period I have probably installed 25-30 Heli-Coil inserts in the oil pan drain plug. The Heli-Coil will still allow the maximum amount of oil to drain as the oil can still pass through the insert and drain. If you use the "time-sert" brand they are solid and you will need to pull the oil cooler line to get the pan completely drained.
The size is 14 x 1.5. Make sure if you use a hand drill that you drill precisely and not allow the drill bit to grab and elongate the hole. The Heli-Coil requires a tap made by them for that Heli-Coil, so you will have to find a kit.
Or I have a new oil pan listed here; Oil Pan (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3AOilPan) and don't forget the oil pan gasket which can be found here; Oil Pan Gasket (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3ACOMEC017020)
You might also need both of these parts when you take than pan off too;
Pick-Up Screen (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3AP%2FUscreen)
Pick-Up Gasket (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3ACOMEC020020)
And finally don't forget to install a new oil plug drain gasket (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3AOilPan/)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 17, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
David,
Over a 16 year period I have probably installed 25-30 Heli-Coil inserts in the oil pan drain plug. The Heli-Coil will still allow the maximum amount of oil to drain as the oil can still pass through the insert and drain. If you use the "time-sert" brand they are solid and you will need to pull the oil cooler line to get the pan completely drained.
+1 Yup, that's what I did. Many years ago, I paid a dealer a measly $40.00 to do this for me, after I had done the same thing.
I never had an issue thereafter.
Dan
Thanks all three of you for the input and ideas!
To what Flips said, can I use regular teflon tape (I already have some)? I'm all for a temporary fix! I even thought of JB welding the darn thing in! At least I get to ride it until the next oil change! Teflon tape sounds better then a permanent plug (JB Weld) but the stores around here don't have the teflon string you were talking about. Anybody know if I can use regular plumbers teflon tape? I've read the FJ engine runs about 250 degrees, will the teflon tape hold up?
To what Randy said, thanks for the size of the insert and other info! I watched a Youtube video on how to do this. There are a LOT of specific tools to accomplish a Heli-Coil insert! Is there anyone in NYC who has done this and could loan me the tools? Anybody have a set they don't need anymore? If I have to buy all this stuff it'll be cheaper just to get a new/used pan from ebay! I would rather Heli-coil this pan so I don't have to worry about this problem again. I was using a torque wrench when I put this plug in and it stripped at half the recommended torque. The Heli-Coil would permanently solve the problem.
To what Dan said, considering all the special tools you need to do a Heli-Coil I think it might be worth $40 to have someone else do it. Did you pull the pan and take it in or just take in the bike? Does anyone know a mechanic in NYC they trust for these things? Preferably in Brooklyn? Preferably in West Brooklyn? I have never found a mechanic I trust as much as myself, I like doing my own work because you get to know your machine that way, but this is less like mechanics and more like machinist work.
This problem is aggravated by my location. Nobody I know has any kind of transportation, car or bike. Nobody has a trusted mechanic to recommend for that reason. Nobody has tools or know how because everyone rides the subway. The most mechanically inclined people in my life know how to ride a bicycle.
Thanks for everything!
Dave.
Hi David
You could try the teflon tape but the string does a much better job at holding the plug into the damaged thread and is unlikely to come loose.
Goodluck & Cheers :drinks:
Jeff.
Quote from: flips on September 18, 2011, 03:00:01 PM
Hi David
You could try the teflon tape but the string does a much better job at holding the plug into the damaged thread and is unlikely to come loose.
Goodluck & Cheers :drinks:
Jeff.
You could take the tape and twist it into a string. Not sure if that would work, just thinking out side the box to help you out.
If you're in that much of a time and money bind then JB Weld the plug in and use the oil cooler line for future oil drains.
DavidR.
Quote from: David Allaband on September 18, 2011, 01:29:54 PM
To what Dan said, considering all the special tools you need to do a Heli-Coil I think it might be worth $40 to have someone else do it. Did you pull the pan and take it in or just take in the bike?
Dave.
Dave-
My $40 dealer fix was many years ago, (12 actually) and in Augusta, GA. I suspect you'll pay considerably more in NYC. FYI.
As to how I did it, I trailer-ed the entire bike to them. I do not know if they removed the pan. For the $, I had assumed they did not.
HTH
Dan
I'm fairly certain I have the correct tap and drill bit for doing the quick "oversize" fix. It worked great on mine and I've been through many oil changes since, without any issues. Send me your address and I'll drop it in the mail if you want to be the new holder of "the tap".
Here is a past discussion we had on this very same issue ----> http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2482.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2482.0)
Thanks for all the help everyone! I love the idea of twisting teflon tape into string! I also like the idea of JB welding the plug in and using the oil cooler line to drain oil! Do you think I could use threadlocker (Red) to stick that plug in?
I got a lot of great offers for help! Randy at RPM is going to put in the Helicoil insert for me! I have one more question. What years of oil pans will fit my 1993 FJ1200? All the pans I see on ebay are from the 80s.
Thanks!
IIRC, they're all the same....
I see that there is a new member at the Stripped Oil Plug Club. Welcome!
I must be the honorary member because i´ve stripped 3 of my 4 FJ plugs. No, I´m not have an arm like Conan the Barbarian, and it only happens to me with the FJ
In my 4th FJ It seems that I´ve learn at the end :dash2:
Quote from: Alf on September 24, 2011, 02:44:43 PM
I see that there is a new member at the Stripped Oil Plug Club. Welcome!
I must be the honorary member because i´ve stripped 3 of my 4 FJ plugs. No, I´m not have an arm like Conan the Barbarian, and it only happens to me with the FJ
In my 4th FJ It seems that I´ve learn at the end
I hear ya on that! I have pulled the drain plug on 40 year old BMWs literally HUNDREDS of times and NEVER stripped threads! In fact I only stripped threads once before on anything anywhere. Here's the real kick in the ass, I was using a torque wrench when I stripped it! My book says I need some 30 odd foot lbs on that plug. I got up to 25 and my heart stopped because it felt REALLY TIGHT. At 26 the threads blew out. I think the book must be wrong.
Has anyone used liquid gasket on the oil pan of their FJ? How did it work? Has anyone used it on that oil sump pickup thing? Hate to bring up BMWs again but my 40 year old BMWs would drop an oil pan with an in tact gasket almost every time (AND there was no need to remove the exhaust system). People keep reminding me to get a gasket for the FJ oil pan so I'm worried it's also a weak link.
Thanks again!
Just my 2c worth but why would you want to torque a plug to 30 lb :dash2:
I suggest you go hand tight and give it a little more.Let her heat up and snug it up one more time.
30 lb is asking for trouble :hi:
Ah!, using a torque wrench on the drain plug!... good memories come to my mind. My 2nd FJ was bought new. 1.000 kms, new oil, and like I´ve stripped the plug in my previous FJ 1100 (repaired with an heli-coil), what better idea that using the torque wrench with a brand new bike?
WRONG! STRIPPED!. Another Heli-coil and never again using the wrench in that plug
Anyway, each time that I change the oil I can feel a cold swear in my back :scratch_one-s_head:
I used liquid gasket in my Laverda 25 years ago... It was dirty and the finish it was not good. Since then I use black sylicon
Yes, get the gaskets. It is not a weak point. 3 heli-coils and no oil leakage
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 27, 2011, 03:34:50 PM
Just my 2c worth but why would you want to torque a plug to 30 lb
Because the repair manual told me to. I just looked it up. It says 31 ft lbs. I was following the directions in the Clymer manual. If I had NOT followed the directions in my Clymer manual I would be riding my bike right now instead of contemplating the weeks it will take to repair my bike because I followed the directions in my Clymber manual.
I'll trust my wrist next time. Vulgarities to my Clymer manual.
I have stripped out bolt holes many time's on Yamaha GP1200 waverunner cylinders the first time I wanted to cry.I have had to install helicoil's in them at least 10-12 times.Steel bolts going into aluminum/aluminium cylinders multiple times means they wont hold torque without stripping so it is going to happen as you do have to torque cylinders whareas you dont have to torque the oil drain plug in the fj.
It just needs to be tight no more than that.
I have taken GP1200 cylinders and helicoiled all the bolt holes for the head so that I had steel threads to work with instead of aluminum/aluminium.Neved had a problem with them after that.
FJ has a steel bolt going into the aluminum oil pan 31 lb of torque is going to open up the bolt hole it mght not be the first oil change that gets you but over time it will.
It might not be much consolation but that's the same figure as the factory manual.
Stuart
Quote from: mz_rider on September 27, 2011, 05:53:38 PM
It might not be much consolation but that's the same figure as the factory manual.
Stuart
The factory manual has its fair share of mistakes for sure, like any document that gets translated I guess.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 27, 2011, 03:34:50 PM
Just my 2c worth but why would you want to torque a plug to 30 lb :dash2:
I suggest you go hand tight and give it a little more.Let her heat up and snug it up one more time.
30 lb is asking for trouble :hi:
Yea, 30 FP seems too much to seal a non-pressurized sump that has maybe a pound or two of head pressure. The torque is meant to keep the bolt sealing and from falling out. I don't use a torque wrench, I use my "monkey" wrench feel and get to that moment of "tight enough". Cut the torque value in half, if you want to measure it, check it every so often. If it loosens up increase the torque 5 more inch pounds and keep checking. My ratchet wrench is about 8 inches or so I don't really crank on it that hard.....Keep your minds on the FJ..... :sarcastic:
WAT is TOrk wentch ? :crazy:
sorry..... :blush:....little joke..... :blush:
Interesting find. When I cleaned the oil sump screen I found sheared off threads. They were the size of the oil drain hole. If I stripped them out when I put the bolt in then there was no way for them to get wedged into the screen because there was no oil in the engine and of course I never started the bike. So they must have been stripped before. When I stripped the drain hole I pulled out the bolt and found two rings of aluminum in it's threads. I thought there should be more. So maybe there were only a couple good threads left and I ripped those out? Maybe someone stripped it before me? Does that makes sense to anyone?
I guess it doesn't really matter. But it would make me feel better about myself and explain the strange location of the stripped threads.
Progress: I have the old pan off and boxed up to mail out to Randy at RPM tomorrow. He's going to Heli-coil it for me and send it back the same day! I might be riding next week!
I want to get this thing back together so I can enjoy the last few months of ridding before cold makes riding a more serious undertaking.
My collector box was rusted all to hell. Three broken clamps an a split pipe. Junk. I need a bolt to hang the right silencer if anyone has one, or knows of a place to find something sturdy like a stainless replacement.
Anyone know where I can get the donuts that go between the collector box and the headers? Most people reuse them but mine crumbled.
Thanks again everyone for everything!