So I was reading my local superbike magazine and they were doing a reveiw on the top 5 litre superbikes from 2011. namely the BMW s1000RR, kawasaki zxr1000, honda cbr1000, yamaha yzf r1 and the suzuki gsxr1000. and last year the BMW(unchanged) won the review and yet again it has won the review. I was looking at the specs of the bikes across the board and the bmw definitely looks like the best but since when did germans manufacture bikes better than the japs??
anybody got their own opinions they wanna share or any other light on this topic?
My veiw on the matter I have always been a fan of the n inja and in the reveiw they rate it second to the other bikes, but I still dont understand how BMW functions so well as a sport bike I have always seen them as tourers?
Quote from: FJt!llD3@th on August 08, 2011, 06:54:57 AM
but since when did germans manufacture bikes better than the japs??
Well I'd be willing to put money on it that BMW will be the first to put direct cylinder head injection on their motorcycle engines and then you won't see which way they went... they're already honing their technical knowledge in this area by doing it on some of their cars...
If they would take a second to sort out the traction control on Troy Corser's bike they would have a World Super Bike Title by now.......
They have been tourers and now for the past few years they are creating performance oriented motorcycles... been a few years not a surprise really.
Quote from: axiom-r on August 08, 2011, 10:16:43 AM
If they would take a second to sort out the traction control...
You reckon
his bike needs traction control... A couple of months ago someone sent me a link to an article about one of those 1000RR's that was running 380 bhp with 1 bar boost... Now that'd lay down some pretty good skid marks... In more ways than one.
It used to be said of the Japanese that they are "imitators" not "innovators" and very good they are at it. For example, every Jap bike manufacturer has being trying unsuccessfully for decades to knock the GS of its perch with copycat models. Most big Jap sports bikes are models evolved over decades that get tweaked every year or so to freshen them up with many components shared across the model range.
BMW started with a clean sheet for a whole new bike. No parts bin special dressed up to look sporty.
It may interest you to know that Aus's premier sport/racing magazine had only 2 Jap bikes in its top 10 sports bikes for 2010!
I got to test a 1600 gt, the freakin thing was amazing. The power was so smooth and even and for a bike as heavey as this you did not notice it because of the great balance. Had a drag race from a light and the thing just blew my fj away :flag_of_truce: :good2: :rofl:
The Sausage Eaters make fine sporting machinery,,,
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KI2JxPpUQms/TNTX9lyOuVI/AAAAAAAAFM0/7Y5Zv29r6TM/IMG_1957.JPG)
It says something that California Superbike school has switched over to using S1000RRs -makes it pretty darn attractive to spend that $700 for a days' instruction, on one.
Pardon the duplication Klavdy, if that picture is from such a class.
Dan
Quote from: big r on August 08, 2011, 07:41:29 PM
I got to test a 1600 gt, the freakin thing was amazing. The power was so smooth and even and for a bike as heavey as this you did not notice it because of the great balance. Had a drag race from a light and the thing just blew my fj away :flag_of_truce: :good2: :rofl:
I'd like to ride one of those new K1600's, all I hear is how awesome they are.
A 700# bike with 66" wheel base is not my idea of a sport tourer, but "they" say it's like magic.
Quote from: ddlewis on August 08, 2011, 08:15:56 PM
Quote from: big r on August 08, 2011, 07:41:29 PM
I got to test a 1600 gt, the freakin thing was amazing. The power was so smooth and even and for a bike as heavey as this you did not notice it because of the great balance. Had a drag race from a light and the thing just blew my fj away :flag_of_truce: :good2: :rofl:
I'd like to ride one of those new K1600's, all I hear is how awesome they are.
A 700# bike with 66" wheel base is not my idea of a sport tourer, but "they" say it's like magic.
Go ride a K13S... magic is an appropriate description. The K13S bikes are sport bike fast, deceptively quick for how big they are, and touring comfortable for a few hundred miles at least and with a w/pillion adjustment available through the touch of a button. I love my FJ for the longer distances (K16GT likely kicks ass here though), the more aggressive tossing (definitely feel the street more than the K13 lets you), and for the attitude of that air cooled four... however, the BMW is a really excellent performing machine and deserves some recognition.
The S1000RR is a spectacular application of engineering dollars and technology options to produce a dominant package for its segment. BMW does this fairly routinely and wants to be "the ultimate" machine for the job of driving or riding. Their M cars have held strong position in multiple segments for years. They just decided to make a bike with these constraints. Also interesting is that they didn't try to BMW it up too much (Ohlin's suspension, chain drive, brembo brakes, etc... instead of Duolever/Paralever, shaft drive, BMW brakes, etc...) and they kept the price low... f'ing great job if you ask me.
I think they set out to enter the high performance segment in early 2000s, then introduced the K12S which was the most powerful mass produced street bike for a couple of years. The K13S was introduced in '09 to close some gaps in the K12S design and it works quite well. The S1000RR was their topper and has ruled the class for 2 years. The '11/12 Japanese bikes are pretty much all new because of it. Sent them all back to school... cool move from a marketing perspective.
BTW - I think the S1000RR was chosen for the track schools based on some slick marketing that demonstrated far fewer incidents could be expected due to the RR's advanced traction control, ABS, and built in programs to control the whole thing and keep you on your tires. A friend has one and says the you really can't get it out of sorts in "rain" mode for example. There is a body of data apparently that supports how safe these bikes are in high speed situations.
Frank
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 08, 2011, 08:15:14 PM
It says something that California Superbike school has switched over to using S1000RRs -makes it pretty darn attractive to spend that $700 for a days' instruction, on one.
Pardon the duplication Klavdy, if that picture is from such a class.
Dan
Yes mate!
That is from the California Superbike School.
Fluffy and I have done courses there, it's brilliant, the best money I've spent on bike stuff.
Quote from: ribbert on August 08, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
It used to be said of the Japanese that they are "imitators" not "innovators" and very good they are at it. For example, every Jap bike manufacturer has being trying unsuccessfully for decades to knock the GS of its perch with copycat models. Most big Jap sports bikes are models evolved over decades that get tweaked every year or so to freshen them up with many components shared across the model range.
BMW started with a clean sheet for a whole new bike. No parts bin special dressed up to look sporty.
It may interest you to know that Aus's premier sport/racing magazine had only 2 Jap bikes in its top 10 sports bikes for 2010!
In my mind, BMW
had to start on a fresh page because nothing they had made previously
was truly sporting. Or should I say nothing that they had could be made competitive for their intention to go racing and subsequently sell sport bikes.
Quote from: Flynt on August 08, 2011, 09:09:15 PMThe S1000RR is a spectacular application of engineering dollars and technology options to produce a dominant package for its segment. BMW does this fairly routinely and wants to be "the ultimate" machine for the job of driving or riding. Their M cars have held strong position in multiple segments for years. They just decided to make a bike with these constraints. Also interesting is that they didn't try to BMW it up too much (Ohlin's suspension, chain drive, brembo brakes, etc... instead of Duolever/Paralever, shaft drive, BMW brakes, etc...) and they kept the price low... f'ing great job if you ask me.
I think they set out to enter the high performance segment in early 2000s, then introduced the K12S which was the most powerful mass produced street bike for a couple of years. The K13S was introduced in '09 to close some gaps in the K12S design and it works quite well. The S1000RR was their topper and has ruled the class for 2 years. The '11/12 Japanese bikes are pretty much all new because of it. Sent them all back to school... cool move from a marketing perspective.
Totally agree Flynt they did a tremendous job. That they didn't try to "BMW it up" is what allowed it to become a competitive sportbike - shaft drive will simply never be sporty to me. It's still a BMW through and through just not in the tradition of BMW...the clearest departure from the lineage of BMW engineering is far and away the in-line 4 engine, something the Japanese pioneered. BMW may well have improved on the in-line four concept with the S1000RR's but they are still standing on the decades of development done by the Japanese...
Quote from: axiom-r on August 08, 2011, 11:37:00 PM
...the clearest departure from the lineage of BMW engineering is far and away the in-line 4 engine, something the Japanese pioneered.
Not to quibble with you, but doing away with the dorky two-sided turn signals had to be among the clearest departures... :) I had a K75 "Flying Brick" -never did get used to those turn signal controls.
Dan
BMW has been making inline 4's for many decades. In BMW bikes, maybe just since the K100s in mid '80s.
And, as for the Japanese pioneering inline 4's.... What about MV Agusta ? Yes, it was racing only but so were Honda's 4s up unitl 1969. I also seem to remember that Henderson made inline 4's way back when, too.
Arnie
Quote from: Arnie on August 09, 2011, 09:23:42 AM
BMW has been making inline 4's for many decades. In BMW bikes, maybe just since the K100s in mid '80s.
And, as for the Japanese pioneering inline 4's.... What about MV Agusta ? Yes, it was racing only but so were Honda's 4s up unitl 1969. I also seem to remember that Henderson made inline 4's way back when, too.
Arnie
Yep, and talking about MV, what about their fabulous 1958 500cc transversely mounted v-8 powered motorcycle? What a ball-tearer...
And something else some future "historians" will probably want attribute to Japanese pioneering is the odd-fire big bang crankshaft that was actually originally pioneered (by someone who's name eludes me right now) in a custom made in-line four cylinder, eight inlet port, odd-fire engine he ran and cleaned up with in sidecars back in the 50's.
(http://www.madeinitalymotorcycles.com/2009_0901MV0002.JPG)
MV also made 4 cyl road bikes and the 500cc V8 was a Moto Guzzi.
Stuart
Honestly I don't think the germans really did anything groundbreaking.
They simply jumped ahead a bit on the curve, we all know that the OEM's tend to keep some performance up their sleeves for next year... BMW didn't have a bike on the market in that class, so they jumped in and slaughtered everyone. Wish there was a non-abs/tc/stupidelectronics version available, preferrably cheaper, but meh, there you go. It's not like they're doing it for free.
Quote from: Arnie on August 09, 2011, 09:23:42 AM
BMW has been making inline 4's for many decades. In BMW bikes, maybe just since the K100s in mid '80s.
And, as for the Japanese pioneering inline 4's.... What about MV Agusta ? Yes, it was racing only but so were Honda's 4s up unitl 1969. I also seem to remember that Henderson made inline 4's way back when, too.
Arnie
No doubt their were other inline fours but, BMW's inline motors were longitudinal and MV didn't make the 350 four until around 76 if I am not mistaken... One of my favorite sounds is the MV 750 America!
"Since the advent of the Honda CB750 straight-four engine, straight-fours have dominated the non-cruiser street motorcycle segments." Wiki
It is this engine arrangement developed by Honda that revolutionized the motorcycle at the time.... My point is, BMW did "one up" the design. Their motor is said to be the smoothest most powerful motor for its displacement. That said, a TON of development, testing and base knowledge for that motor configuration was already done. They started at a higher level thanks to all the work that had come before they gave up on trying to make their other designs competitive and went to the tried and true upright inline four to achieve performance on a competitive level..
Quote from: axiom-r on August 09, 2011, 11:58:03 AMNo doubt their were other inline fours but, BMW's inline motors were longitudinal and MV didn't make the 350 four until around 76 if I am not mistaken...
I am mistaken... there were 4 cylinder MV race bikes well before the CB750 Honda and one 600cc touring bike revealed in 1966 in Milan.....
BUT...... Honda started competing at the Isle of Mann in 1959 using a 6-cylinder 125cc and a 4-cylinder 250cc. They were unable to develop their chassis to cope with these motors until 1961....(when Hailwood gave them their first championships). So, I am now unsure about who built the first upright multi-cylinder race bike as we know it today... Was it MV or Honda?
Perhaps Honda gets all the credit because they were the first to put a reliable four-cylinder production bike up for sale.. All though the clearly "imitated" design early on (as did Kawasaki) they deserve credit for development and innovation too.
You learn something new everyday.
Quote from: ribbert on August 08, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
It used to be said of the Japanese that they are "imitators" not "innovators" and very good they are at it.....
Imitators not innovators? Bullshit. Honda builds, and still builds, the finest engines in the world. Period. .
If it wasn't for Japanese engineering technology, we would still be stuck with 5,000 rpm pushrod engines....aka airhead Boxers...
Yea, anyone with enough money can build a fleet of prototype racing engines, but the true test is putting that design into production, and making them 200-500k mile reliable for us mortals to enjoy.
Kudos to BMW for some bitchen bikes, but my money is on the Japanese.
Okay I will admit the Germans definitely did well with the BMW but I dont think the Japs are innovaters as Pat has said.
Although just for some interest nobody had mentioned anything about Ducatti and buells and harleys, the likes as in anything non jap or non german....
Quote from: mz_rider on August 09, 2011, 11:45:42 AM
...and the 500cc V8 was a Moto Guzzi.
Stuart
Yep, you're right, my mistake...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 09, 2011, 05:25:55 PM
Bullshit. Honda builds, and still builds, the finest engines in the world. Period.
This one's for Pat... Hitler lost his motorcycle. Then got a BMW GS. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaB40TLQE8M#noexternalembed)
Haaa! Very Good Oz! :biggrin:
I hang with the Mazda crowd and we soup up Miata's and RX-7's with Chevy LS3 engines. A hoot to drive.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/ (http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/)
Here's Adolph's reaction when he found out someone installed another Wankel in his RX-7:
Hitler reacts to the Rotards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxsY4lEGRBI#noexternalembed)
Cheers!
Quote from: FJt!llD3@th on August 10, 2011, 12:59:05 AM
Okay I will admit the Germans definitely did well with the BMW but I dont think the Japs are innovaters as Pat has said.
The Japanese aren't innovative?? What would you call the oval piston NR series Honda engine?
Quote from: FJt!llD3@th on August 10, 2011, 12:59:05 AM
Okay I will admit the Germans definitely did well with the BMW but I dont think the Japs are innovaters as Pat has said.
Quote from: hein on August 10, 2011, 12:37:32 PM
The Japanese aren't innovative?? What would you call the oval piston NR series Honda engine?
More or less, a failure, but at least they has the stones to try it...
Yup Japanese are not innovative :sarcastic:, then again - Japan's population is only 42 percent of that of the U.S., its ratio of patents per million population is 3.5 times higher than the United States — and indeed the highest such ratio of all the worlds country. Many of the patents are monitized, money makers.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 10, 2011, 12:22:11 PM
Haaa! Very Good Oz! :biggrin:
I hang with the Mazda crowd and we soup up Miata's and RX-7's with Chevy LS3 engines. A hoot to drive.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/ (http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/)
Here's Adolph's reaction when he found out someone installed another Wankel in his RX-7:
Hitler reacts to the Rotards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxsY4lEGRBI#noexternalembed)
Cheers!
"Off the line the Rotary does not have enough torque to pull the panties off your drunken sister!" -Excellent!
Made me laugh.
Dan
Dang Pat, stop sugar coating your words and tell us what you really think!
:wacko1:
[ The Japanese aren't innovative?? What would you call the oval piston NR series Honda engine?
More or less, a failure, but at least they has the stones to try it...
Correct on both counts. From a racing and commercial perspective the NR didn't fare too well. Even though the streetlegal version sold out for big dollars in very limited numbers I doubt that they recovered any useful amount of money considering their r&d costs. I'm still curious as to were one would take the cylinders to if a rebore or even a honing job was required.
hitler video made my day!! :lol: