hey guys. I've been pulling my 85 1100 apart just to tidy it up a bit and have decide to do away with the oem airbox.
I was wondering though..... Do any of you think I'm going to need to re-jet the carbs at all? Cause its got 4-1 extractors on it but I'm not sure what kind they are. I know they are in the way off the drain plug tho :dash2:
It runs properly as it is but will the pod filters effect anything?
Carbs are a bit before my time I guess haha
If your slides have adjustable needles, lower the clip one groove (which raises the needle for a richer condition).
If you don't have adjustable needles, then shim the needles about 0.5mm.
You shouldn't need to change the jets.
DavidR.
I dunno David, it gets pretty toasty warm down under...I think his main jets need up sizing.
The Yamaha microfiche shows the euro '85 FJ to have 110 main jets and 40 pilot jets vs. the USA version's larger 112.5 mains and smaller 37.5 pilots (am I reading that right?) if so....
I know we spend very little time WFO on the main jets, and 80% of our time on the needles, but #110 mains are kinda small with pod filters and a 4-1 pipe. (#40 pilots are fine) considering the hot weather.
Fr Paddy
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 06:25:01 PM
I dunno David, it gets pretty toasty warm down under...I think his main jets need up sizing.
The Yamaha microfiche shows the euro '85 FJ to have 110 main jets and 40 pilot jets vs. the USA version's larger 112.5 mains and smaller 37.5 pilots (am I reading that right?) if so....
I know we spend very little time WFO on the main jets, and 80% of our time on the needles, but #110 mains are kinda small with pod filters and a 4-1 pipe. (#40 pilots are fine) considering the hot weather.
Fr Paddy
Gotta love having aussies on here!
What kinda main do you think I would need?
I would start with 115's and on a hot day, with the engine well heat soaked, listen for ping under WFO.
If you plan on also running a 5 degree ignition advance plate, along with your pipe and pods, I would start at 117.5's.. Cheers!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 06:38:00 PM
I would start with 115's and on a hot day, with the engine well heat soaked, listen for ping under WFO.
If you plan on also running a 5 degree ignition advance plate, along with your pipe and pods, I would start at 117.5's.. Cheers!
Haha noob question......whats WFO?
I hadn't planned on running an advance plate. It was more of a "while if got it out" kind of situation. Would you recommend it?
Also I noticed the carbs don't have any mounting points other than the intake and the airbox. Do I need to make a bracket up or is it ok with it just hanging of the engine?
No worries mate, WFO = Wide fuckin open, or full throttle. That's when the main jets are doing their jobs feeding gas.
Ignition Advance plates are a poor man's option to one of those fancy Dyna 2000 ignition modules.
The 5* advance along with a header, Uni-pod filters and tuning helps wake up the low and mid range of the 1100/1200's
Do the relay mod to your coils while you're at it......
I would recommend against the individual K&N style paper air filters. Many folks have complained about ill fitting.
The current consensus is that the 2 stage foam Unipod filters are the preferred aftermarket filter set up for the FJ's.
No need for additional support for the filters, they are very light, just oil and tighten the clamps and go....
Don't forget to order the crankcase breather filter.....
Randy @ RPM ships to Australia: http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24) Cheers! Pat
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 09:04:57 PM
The current consensus is that the 2 stage foam Unipod filters are the preferred aftermarket filter set up for the FJ's.
Randy @ RPM ships to Australia: http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24) Cheers! Pat
And for a visual reason why K&N filters do not work...Here are the carbs I worked on today;Randy - RPM(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/MarshCarbs005.jpg)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/MarshCarbs006.jpg)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/MarshCarbs010.jpg)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 09:04:57 PM
No worries mate, WFO = Wide fuckin open, or full throttle. That's when the main jets are doing their jobs feeding gas.
Ignition Advance plates are a poor man's option to one of those fancy Dyna 2000 ignition modules.
The 5* advance along with a header, Uni-pod filters and tuning helps wake up the low and mid range of the 1100/1200's
Do the relay mod to your coils while you're at it......
I would recommend against the individual K&N style paper air filters. Many folks have complained about ill fitting.
The current consensus is that the 2 stage foam Unipod filters are the preferred aftermarket filter set up for the FJ's.
No need for additional support for the filters, they are very light, just oil and tighten the clamps and go....
Don't forget to order the crankcase breather filter.....
Randy @ RPM ships to Australia: http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24) Cheers! Pat
Haha the poor mans option sounds like a bit of me. Where can I get an ignition advancer? I was planning on gettin the uni pods from randy when I can seperate the visa from the missus. Haha and one of those smoked tail lights :biggrin:
Thanx mate
Kev
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 25, 2011, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 09:04:57 PM
The current consensus is that the 2 stage foam Unipod filters are the preferred aftermarket filter set up for the FJ's.
Randy @ RPM ships to Australia: http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ARPMPod&cat=24) Cheers! Pat
And for a visual reason why K&N filters do not work...Here are the carbs I worked on today;
Randy - RPM
Randy,
Is this the K&N pods or the airbox filter that did this to these carbs?
Thanks,
CraigO
90FJ1200
K&N pod filters. Just for the record; I would clean those filters at least every 3,000 miles.
So when you fit the pod filters is the whole carby and air filter assembly just held by the intake?
Quote from: Rampant_ant on April 26, 2011, 03:39:54 AM
So when you fit the pod filters is the whole carby and air filter assembly just held by the intake?
Sure is!
Have no fear, the intakes are quite capable of this......in reality, they are doing it even with the air box. The air box bolts are not supporting the carbs - the rubber components between the air box and the carbs are quite flexible and do not support the back inlet side of the carbs to any great degree.
The UNI dual pod filters weigh next door to nothing.
Harvy
Cheers thanx Harvy :bomb:
Quote from: craigo on April 25, 2011, 09:51:54 PM
Randy,
Is this the K&N pods or the airbox filter that did this to these carbs?
Thanks,
CraigO
90FJ1200
Quote from: Marsh White on April 26, 2011, 01:13:46 AM
K&N pod filters. Just for the record; I would clean those filters at least every 3,000 miles.
I am going to recommend a new set of UNI's when I send them back...
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Rampant_ant on April 25, 2011, 09:34:44 PM
Haha the poor mans option sounds like a bit of me. Where can I get an ignition advancer?
Good question Kev, Ignition advance plates/rotors; they used to be popular, but I have not seen them around much lately.
Vance and Hines along with Factory Pro here in the USA used to carry them, not sure now.
FYI, There are 2 types of FJ ignition advancers, the plate type which the later model FJ's use, and the rotor type which the early FJ's use. Make sure you get the rotor type for your '85.
Happy hunting...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 06:25:01 PM
I dunno David, it gets pretty toasty warm down under...I think his main jets need up sizing.
The Yamaha microfiche shows the euro '85 FJ to have 110 main jets and 40 pilot jets vs. the USA version's larger 112.5 mains and smaller 37.5 pilots (am I reading that right?) if so....
I know we spend very little time WFO on the main jets, and 80% of our time on the needles, but #110 mains are kinda small with pod filters and a 4-1 pipe. (#40 pilots are fine) considering the hot weather.
Fr Paddy
Just found out I have 112.5 main jets. Not sure what pilot yet as I don't have the tools to pull it all apart.
Was wondering if those mains sound right for a standard filter and airbox with the 4-1 exhaust
Cheers
Quote
Just found out I have 112.5 main jets. Not sure what pilot yet as I don't have the tools to pull it all apart.
Was wondering if those mains sound right for a standard filter and airbox with the 4-1 exhaust
Ask your plugs what they think!
Quote from: Rampant_ant on April 30, 2011, 02:23:15 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2011, 06:25:01 PM
I dunno David, it gets pretty toasty warm down under...I think his main jets need up sizing.
The Yamaha microfiche shows the euro '85 FJ to have 110 main jets and 40 pilot jets vs. the USA version's larger 112.5 mains and smaller 37.5 pilots (am I reading that right?) if so....
I know we spend very little time WFO on the main jets, and 80% of our time on the needles, but #110 mains are kinda small with pod filters and a 4-1 pipe. (#40 pilots are fine) considering the hot weather.
Fr Paddy
Just found out I have 112.5 main jets. Not sure what pilot yet as I don't have the tools to pull it all apart.
Was wondering if those mains sound right for a standard filter and airbox with the 4-1 exhaust
Cheers
As Andy says, "check your plugs".
In doing so you will see that the FJ with the stock jetting runs on the lean side. Yamaha did this for emission reasons, not tuning reasons.
DavidR (who btw is our in house FJ Carb Guru) recommends to raise the needles. That is spot on, and for the sake of this discussion will cover ~80% of your riding conditions.
The other 20% of your riding conditions, again for discussion, can be further divided into 2 areas;
1) Riding on the pilot jets (~10%) and;
2) Riding WFO on the main jets (~10%)
1) Riding on the pilot jets (oem 38.5) happens at low "intake air velocity" speeds with the rpms in the 0-2500 rpm range. At these low speeds, the difference in the
air flow with the change from the stock air filters to the Unipods is not that great, no big deal .
IOW: air flow thru the carbs is not much different at low speeds with Unipod vs. stock.
(Side note: In hot weather climates increasing the Pilot jets from oem 38.5 to a 40 or 42.5 results in cooler running motors (richer mixture) when idling around town at low speeds)
However... 2) Riding on the main jets happens at ~WFO with higher engine rpms and thus much higher air intake velocity thru the carbs....
This in my opinion: Here's where Uni pod filters really kick ass, they really
flow much much more air than the oem filter at high velocities. This additional air thru the Uni pods needs additional fuel, thus (again in my opinion) the need for bigger main jets.
110 and 112.5 main jets are too small for FJ's equipped with a header and Unipod filters... I'm not alone in this opinion.
1) Get your bike toasty warm,
2) Run your bike WFO. Listen for ping.
3) Chop your throttle, turn your bike off, coast to a stop.
4) Remove your tank and pull your plugs and look at the colors. Wear gloves, they're hotter than.....
I'll bet you a jelly donut: If you have 112.5 main jets with Uni's and a header, you will hear ping or as Andy recommends, by looking at your plugs you will see that you need fatter main jets.....Wanna bet? Any takers?
what should one be looking for on the plugs? i stuck with the airbox and only got #40's with the headers. but it seems way to rich. you can smell fuel quite readily. if i were to switch to pod filters, which main jets would i need? oh, its a '90
For a WOT throttle chop plug check that means cranking the throttle open for a FEW seconds then pulling the clutch, kill the engine, coast ot a stop, pull the plugs and look at them. Not exactly a convenient thing to do out on the road.
You'll be looking for the plug insulator to be a light tan color. Not black and not white. If you think you're too rich at idle, check the mixture screws. You can usually smell rich at idle. Once underway, it's hard for you to gauge the mixture. Ask the person behind you.
I remember my first day riding behind Carey on his '86. I thought I was going to pass out any second. When we got back to camp I lowered his needles a clip and a half.
DavidR.
On a WFO plug chop, I wouldn't want the easily visible part of the insulator to be tan. Ideally, you'll need to cut it in half and read the ceramic portion down near where it attaches to the metal portion of the plug. Yeah, it means you're cutting up nearly new plugs, it feels awful. You can also use a 5-10x magnifying glass to read them.
(http://www.strappe.com/plug_section_16.gif)
If it's tan all the way out near the center electrode after a WOT run, you didn't use a new plug, the plug is far too cold, or you're comically rich, as the insulator should be cleaned by the heat of the combustion cycle to prevent fouling. If the insulator is glassy, it means you're probably using too hot of a plug or you're quite lean. If you're seeing speckles on the ceramic portion, there's a good chance that you're getting detonation that you're not hearing.
Quote from: andyb on April 30, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
On a WFO plug chop, I wouldn't want the easily visible part of the insulator to be tan. Ideally, you'll need to cut it in half and read the ceramic portion down near where it attaches to the metal portion of the plug.
Wait, you're saying you have to destroy your plugs to read them??!! A bit like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -no?
Dan
Everything I have been tought about jetting is. Use a old plug, they will color better, and quicker than a new plug will. Thats what's what Yamaha told me back in 1989 when I was at school. What would they know.
Bob W
Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 30, 2011, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: andyb on April 30, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
On a WFO plug chop, I wouldn't want the easily visible part of the insulator to be tan. Ideally, you'll need to cut it in half and read the ceramic portion down near where it attaches to the metal portion of the plug.
Wait, you're saying you have to destroy your plugs to read them??!! A bit like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -no?
Dan
Hmmm.
Perhaps Schrödinger's Cat would serve as a better analogy?
Quote from: weymouth399 on April 30, 2011, 08:37:38 PM
That's what Yamaha told me back in 1989 when I was at school. What would they know?
Bob W
Well, if they knew what they were doing we wouldn't have to rejet, right? Oh wait, we screwed with the bike, never mind.
While we're on this topic, anybody know why my needles have 6 grooves? I've seen 4 and 5 clip grooves, is this some strange brand of jet kit?
Quote from: Klavdy on April 30, 2011, 10:17:02 PM
Perhaps Schrödinger's Cat would serve as a better analogy?
You simply can not mitigate for quantum decoherence. Schrödinger's Cat is a fascicle paradox.
Dan
Quote from: Klavdy on April 30, 2011, 10:17:02 PM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 30, 2011, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: andyb on April 30, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
On a WFO plug chop, I wouldn't want the easily visible part of the insulator to be tan. Ideally, you'll need to cut it in half and read the ceramic portion down near where it attaches to the metal portion of the plug.
Wait, you're saying you have to destroy your plugs to read them??!! A bit like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -no?
Dan
Hmmm.
Perhaps Schrödinger's Cat would serve as a better analogy?
So you put in new plugs, run them WFO, shut it down on the interstate, pull the plugs, cut them open, measure their present position but are unable to predict their future velocity, then put them in a box with a cat of indeterminate mortality? Is this a Harley thing or Voodoo? Also starting to sound like some rustic advice from the Haynes manual.
Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 30, 2011, 10:27:49 PM
You simply can not mitigate for quantum decoherence. Schrödinger's Cat is a fascicle paradox.
Dan
Correction: that is: *farcical* paradox.
Ain't it a bastard the way that Fluffy has set the time allowed for editing.
He's done that on purpose you know, just to be a dick.
I love a thread hijack flavored fascicle. Very cooling on a hot day.
With individual filters I run 125 mains in my FJ 1100. Don´t miss to raise the needles with a little shim under the clip
Quote from: carsick on April 30, 2011, 10:30:58 PM
Quote from: Klavdy on April 30, 2011, 10:17:02 PM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 30, 2011, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: andyb on April 30, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
On a WFO plug chop, I wouldn't want the easily visible part of the insulator to be tan. Ideally, you'll need to cut it in half and read the ceramic portion down near where it attaches to the metal portion of the plug.
Wait, you're saying you have to destroy your plugs to read them??!! A bit like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -no?
Dan
Hmmm.
Perhaps Schrödinger's Cat would serve as a better analogy?
So you put in new plugs, run them WFO, shut it down on the interstate, pull the plugs, cut them open, measure their present position but are unable to predict their future velocity, then put them in a box with a cat of indeterminate mortality? Is this a Harley thing or Voodoo? Also starting to sound like some rustic advice from the Haynes manual.
The "Black Art" of tuning a 2-stroke...... :dash1:
Quote from: carsick on April 30, 2011, 10:18:55 PM
Quote from: weymouth399 on April 30, 2011, 08:37:38 PM
That's what Yamaha told me back in 1989 when I was at school. What would they know?
Bob W
Well, if they knew what they were doing we wouldn't have to rejet, right? Oh wait, we screwed with the bike, never mind.
While we're on this topic, anybody know why my needles have 6 grooves? I've seen 4 and 5 clip grooves, is this some strange brand of jet kit?
Not all FJs are jetted the same all over the world. Yamaha got it close where they didn't have to pass EPA standards.
They had to be so lean they would barley run right out of the box. It was a big problem at the time. To get it to run right, it would never pass the EPA test.
The 6 clip needle is what all mine have, I run HSR kits.
My 08 KLX 450 has the same problem, not for long.
Bob W
Quote from: andyb on April 30, 2011, 07:48:48 AM
Ask your plugs what they think!
Try this for reading your plugs!
http://www.pjmotorsports.com/spark-plug-info.html (http://www.pjmotorsports.com/spark-plug-info.html)
I'm glad I saw this thread as I'm considering buying pod filters for my bike. I saw RPM's website had the jets I think I need. I would like to order #115 mains and #42.5 pilots. My bike has 4-into-1 Vance & Hines exhuast without the baffle material in the can (if that matters).
Are there any special tools required? Can I just unscrew the old and screw in the new? :pardon:
No special tools required. A couple of flathead screwdrivers that fit pretty well, and you're done.
Quote from: andyb on May 13, 2011, 01:17:10 PM
No special tools required. A couple of flathead screwdrivers that fit pretty well, and you're done.
Awesome. Thanks.
Why do I keep seeing drill bits and sheet metal screws in jet kits on Ebay? What are those for?
The drill is to make holes, silly! The screw is then threaded in and used to remove the blocking plugs over the idle mixture screws. Occasionally, an additional drill is included for slightly opening the air bleed in the carb slide.
If you can see your idle mixture screws, you shouldn't need a drill when working on your carbs. Just a properly fitting screwdriver will suffice, do be careful as it's occasionally easy to bugger up the nice soft brass jets.
If you're running pod filters and a full exhaust, I am not entirely certain that 115's and 42.5's will be ideal. I'd suggest closer to a 120-125 main and a 40 pilot. That being said I have 42.5 pilots as I couldn't get quite enough adjustment from the 40's.
I made a lot of experiments with my FJ 1100 and 125 mains were the correct ones with a Muzzy race 4/1 exhaust & 5º ignition advancer . Mine was an european model with OE 40 pilots fitted
It does help to use a cabinet-style screwdriver, the one with straight sides all the way to the tip.... and they should fit the jet properly, filling the slot with little-to-no slop. Damaged jets don't flow to spec.....
Recently removed Kerker 4-1-2 pipe and installed 4-1 V&H SS2R.Did not change anything in carbs.Bike ran good but very hot so I raised my needles 2 slots to richen her up.Went to far so lowered them 1 slot.All good except just on the throttle bike was surging.I have a DJ kit in with 144 pilot air jets so i tried some 155 jets I had on hand.Initial testing which was not long enough due to rain was good I could run in 3rd at low rpm without surging when i ease on the gas.
With the old Kerker pipe I had my needles lowered all the way DJ124 mains,144 pilot air,pilot looks like 52,long springs.
With the V&H pipe needles are set on 2nd slot from top,DJ124 mains,52 pilot,155 pilot air.long springs.
Got to take a longer ride to see what needs changed but I seem to be geting close.
I might try a smaller pilot jet next I will decide after another test ride.
With 36Y inlets and open exhaus and k&n it is this way Main jet 125, needle middle, LEDAR air corrector jet smaller and thats it.
look here http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7214426/7422355.htm (http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7214426/7422355.htm)
Quote from: RichBaker on May 13, 2011, 08:02:37 PM
It does help to use a cabinet-style screwdriver, the one with straight sides all the way to the tip.... and they should fit the jet properly, filling the slot with little-to-no slop. Damaged jets don't flow to spec.....
I specifically dedicated a screwdriver to the task. 10s with a bench grinder shaped it appropriately, but remember to round the sharp edges off of the sides or you'll cut clearance in the soft aluminum castings...
I noticed some discussion of a 5 degree ignition advance plate. Wouldn't that make it harder to start? I know that's the effect of advancing the ignition on a Chevy V-8.
If my bike gets harder to start, it won't. :negative:
Usually:
Advanced ignition = Harder starting, but better power (depending on cam).
Retarded ignition = Quicker starting, but less power + more heat.
I've noticed the opposite effect. Advanced static timing gives easier starting and a pinch more low rpm power, retarded timing gives a power cut at the bottom (making a more noticable kick up high, sometimes past redline so you'll just lose overall), and the lack of immediate torque makes it harder to start.
YMMV, I suspect! If you just grind the stock plate a pinch, you'll have the option to return it back to stock as desired, with only time being your loss.
I plan on adding a few deg timing what way do you shift the plate cw or ccw.I plan on checking the valves too and adding slotted cam gears.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on May 15, 2011, 10:48:25 AM
I plan on adding a few deg timing what way do you shift the plate cw or ccw.I plan on checking the valves too and adding slotted cam gears.
I did this per RPM Randy's suggestion. CW and grind the holes out to the edge of the mark left by the screw head... i.e. grind the holes on the left side as you're looking at the timing plate installed.
Frank
Thank you saved me the trouble of figuring it out.Its on the list of things to do.
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2011, 10:23:02 AM
I've noticed the opposite effect. Advanced static timing gives easier starting and a pinch more low rpm power, retarded timing gives a power cut at the bottom (making a more noticable kick up high, sometimes past redline so you'll just lose overall), and the lack of immediate torque makes it harder to start.
YMMV, I suspect! If you just grind the stock plate a pinch, you'll have the option to return it back to stock as desired, with only time being your loss.
The effect of having an ignition advancer fitted is similar to high compression pistons: with the advancer the spark ignites the combustion chamber a fraction of time before the piston is at TLC, so with the extra gases of the combustion there is more pressure at the chamber = more compression is obtained at this moment
Quote from: Alf on May 16, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2011, 10:23:02 AM
I've noticed the opposite effect. Advanced static timing gives easier starting and a pinch more low rpm power, retarded timing gives a power cut at the bottom (making a more noticeable kick up high, sometimes past redline so you'll just lose overall), and the lack of immediate torque makes it harder to start.
YMMV, I suspect! If you just grind the stock plate a pinch, you'll have the option to return it back to stock as desired, with only time being your loss.
The effect of having an ignition advance fitted is similar to high compression pistons: with the advancer the spark ignites the combustion chamber a fraction of time before the piston is at TLC, so with the extra gases of the combustion there is more pressure at the chamber = more compression is obtained at this momentQuote from: Alf on May 16, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2011, 10:23:02 AM
I've noticed the opposite effect. Advanced static timing gives easier starting and a pinch more low rpm power, retarded timing gives a power cut at the bottom (making a more noticable kick up high, sometimes past redline so you'll just lose overall), and the lack of immediate torque makes it harder to start.
YMMV, I suspect! If you just grind the stock plate a pinch, you'll have the option to return it back to stock as desired, with only time being your loss.
The effect of having an ignition advancer fitted is similar to high compression pistons: with the advancer the spark ignites the combustion chamber a fraction of time before the piston is at TLC, so with the extra gases of the combustion there is more pressure at the chamber = more compression is obtained at this moment
Quote from: Alf on May 16, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2011, 10:23:02 AM
I've noticed the opposite effect. Advanced static timing gives easier starting and a pinch more low rpm power, retarded timing gives a power cut at the bottom (making a more noticable kick up high, sometimes past redline so you'll just lose overall), and the lack of immediate torque makes it harder to start.
YMMV, I suspect! If you just grind the stock plate a pinch, you'll have the option to return it back to stock as desired, with only time being your loss.
The effect of having an ignition advancer fitted is similar to high compression pistons: with the advancer the spark ignites the combustion chamber a fraction of time before the piston is at TLC, so with the extra gases of the combustion there is more pressure at the chamber = more compression is obtained at this moment
Anyone familiar with old cars and bikes fitted with manual advance/retard levers will recall the standard starting procedure is full retard until it fires then advance a little then advance more once under way or under load (pre mechanical/ vacuum advance). This is now taken care of automatically on modern engines, the "mechanical" advances with revs, the "vacuum" with load. This curve is predetermined by the manufacturer but in most cases the starting point is adjustable. This, and the curve, were often compromised (particularly in the 70's & 80's) to achieve emissions results. While trial and error(advance) may show some improvement over standard, results can be deceptive. The perceived increase in power or torque may only be relative to a loss of it somewhere else. Retarded engines (within reason) start easily, definitely run hotter and offer no real performance improvement anywhere above idle. These are general observations not specifically Fj.
Aaaaargh, the first line and a half of the previous post are not mine but part of what I was responding to. Mine starts with "Anyone familiar with old cars........................"
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on May 16, 2011, 06:44:02 AM
Aaaaargh, the first line and a half of the previous post are not mine but part of what I was responding to. Mine starts with "Anyone familiar with old cars........................"
Noel
FYI: you could have just gone back and edited your original post. You have 30 minutes to make edits.
Quote from: Alf on May 16, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
The effect of having an ignition advancer fitted is similar to high compression pistons: with the advancer the spark ignites the combustion chamber a fraction of time before the piston is at TLC, so with the extra gases of the combustion there is more pressure at the chamber = more compression is obtained at this moment
I agree, but remember to compare fairly modern and relatively efficent, high rpm engines, rather than old technology, low reving engines with less efficent combustion chambers, as well as considering piston area and how that relates to burn time. The overall goal is to put the peak combustion pressure right where the engine has the best leverage on the rod. You can read about some of Larry Widmer's (sp?) work, he did a bunch with altering swirl to change how the burn rates changed.
O.K. - One last shot here. How does 125 Main jets and 42.5 Pilot jets sound? :unknown:
Once again, I'm running Vance & Hines SS2R exhaust with pod air filters and no timing advance. I'll be ordering soon.
Quote from: Lotsokids on May 19, 2011, 11:25:30 AM
O.K. - One last shot here. How does 125 Main jets and 42.5 Pilot jets sound?
Once again, I'm running Vance & Hines SS2R exhaust with pod air filters and no timing advance. I'll be ordering soon.
Sure, Go for it.
I've got 42.5 pilots on my '84, screws @ 2.5 turns.....In the mountains at 6k msl slow speed putting around town, I'm rich, 40.0's would be better, however at sea level in Palm Desert, on a hot summer day my bike is happy happy happy.....
Sounds close. I'd consider 122's if you tend to ride more in the heat and/or if you are at >1000' altitude, otherwise the 125's will be a pinch fat on hot days. They'll work fine though, especially when it gets cold.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 19, 2011, 12:12:34 PM
Sure, Go for it.
I've got 42.5 pilots on my '84, screws @ 2.5 turns.....In the mountains at 6k msl slow speed putting around town, I'm rich, 40.0's would be better, however at sea level in Palm Desert, on a hot summer day my bike is happy happy happy.....
Since I have the illusive '88 / European model, aren't my stock pilot jets 40's? If so, I don't mind leaving them alone. I might also run 122's on the mains.
Sorry if I seem to be beating this to death. It's very difficult for me to get aftermarket parts. I have to order them and send them to the U.S., then get them when I take a trip back to the U.S. - the Hungarian mail system is broken. It's not like I can just go down to the motorcycle shop and get a different size jet. I need to get this right the first time.
Thanks for the input! :good2:
In that case, get a couple sets :) They're not terribly pricy. A set of 125's and 120's, some shim washers for the needles, and a set of 42 pilots should cover a pretty wide variety of bases.
Quote from: andyb on May 19, 2011, 05:03:50 PM
In that case, get a couple sets :) They're not terribly pricy. A set of 125's and 120's, some shim washers for the needles, and a set of 42 pilots should cover a pretty wide variety of bases.
.....and, for ease of mailing, they can fit in an envelope.
I ordered 122.5 Mains, 42.5 Pilot jets, and bowl gaskets today. Only $2.59 for shipping here to Hungary. We'll see if Budapest customs steals anything...
Thanks, Randy @ RPM. If this shipment goes without a hitch, I might have found a new way to get parts! :good2:
I just got the parts, Randy. THANK YOU!!! :good2: Due to other circumstances, I won't be able to open my carbs and install them for a while...
Quote from: carsick on June 04, 2011, 10:22:17 PM
??? Is it another kid or the new Camaro?
YES. Ha ha. Just kidding - my bike has been at the shop for my inspection and front tire installation. They are not in a hurry to do ANYTHING here. (popcorn)
Yesterday I installed my pod air filters. This weekend I plan on installing the new main and pilot jets into the carbs. :dance2:
I pushed it kind of hard on the highway today. I noticed a boost in power at high RPM. MAN, this thing pulls HARD!!! Plus the deafening sound of my 4 carbs sucking a LOT of air.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/Lotsokids/FJ1200/AirFilters.jpg)
Quote from: Lotsokids on June 28, 2011, 05:09:17 AM
I noticed a boost in power at high RPM. MAN, this thing pulls HARD!!!
I'm guessing the V-max makes most of it's power below where the FJ starts to holler at 7K?
Quote from: carsick on June 28, 2011, 07:13:26 PM
Quote from: Lotsokids on June 28, 2011, 05:09:17 AM
I noticed a boost in power at high RPM. MAN, this thing pulls HARD!!!
I'm guessing the V-max makes most of it's power below where the FJ starts to holler at 7K?
The V-Max has the V-Boost system that kicks in at 6,000 RPM. So instead of 1 carb feeding it's respective cylinder, a valve opens that connects a manifold between the front and rear cylinders. At that point 2 carbs feed each cylinder. So it does pull even harder just after 6,000 RPM. And you could probably pull tree stumps with the torque it puts out.
(http://members.chello.nl/c.cornwall/100-145pk/V-Boost2.jpg)
And if you tweak the wiring on it, you can have it open at 3k instead of 6k.
And if you really want, you just bypass the lot and make it manually switchable. Gives the bike one hell of a mean sounding idle, very lumpy due to the excessive double carburetion, though mileage goes to shit.
Even so, an FJ should just walk away without half trying. The max feels fast, and at the top of fourth gear is terrifying. The FJ is bored and relaxing, so even at 150mph you're looking for another gear.
Makes for one hell of an engine in a Venture, though. Just stick the intake bits on, and you have a touring bike that can actually get up and move!
Quote from: Lotsokids on June 29, 2011, 03:45:27 AM
The V-Max has the V-Boost system that kicks in at 6,000 RPM. So instead of 1 carb feeding it's respective cylinder, a valve opens that connects a manifold between the front and rear cylinders. At that point 2 carbs feed each cylinder. So it does pull even harder just after 6,000 RPM. And you could probably pull tree stumps with the torque it puts out.
Funny. I've notice the VRF with its fancy-shmancy variable timing 'VTEC' system, routinely get panned by the motorcycle mags for its 'abrupt transitions' from 2 valves to 4 at ~3,000rpm, and has been since it was introduced back in +/- 2003. From your description, the V-Max sure seems to be more 'abrupt', (2X the carbs all of the sudden, must be abrupt) and yet, it's revered, seemingly legendary in some circles. I wonder whether it's that Honda is held to a different standard, or is this simply that the design principles are so very different between a sport-tourer-flagship and a bruiser?
Thoughts?
Dan
It's not a big hit when it comes on. Definitely noticable, but nothing like a smoker. And odds are that with that chassis, you're not going to be leaning way over when it comes on, so it's more a happy thing than a scary thing.
Today I installed my new carb jets and the A.P.E. manual cam chain tentioner. It runs like crap.... hard to start and stay running plus backfiring. I assumed I jumped timing since I just swapped the tentioner without taking off the valve cover. As much as I HATE dealing with that stupid valve cover gasket, I removed it, checked the timing chain with the tentioner off, but when I installed the new tentioner, the timing was right on. Maybe something shifted, I don't know. I'm still getting my butt kicked by jet lag - minimal sleep and sick for a couple days. I had to stop and get some rest. I'll install the carbs soon and try it again soon. I'll keep you posted.
I also installed a new fuel filter (a chrome and glass hot-rod type) which started leaking. Is the benefit of a filter worth the chance of a fuel leak at the 2 additional attachments I just introduced (screw-in plastic nipples on the ends of the filters)?
IT'S ALIVE (again).
The timing must have been wrong. I got it all back together and she fired right up. Then after the engine warmed up, it started to rain. Figures... I revved it a few times. It seems to have a more crisp throttle response. It sounds mean as ever. Can't wait to get it on the road.
I got the beast on the road today. It pulls very hard and smooth - maybe a little more power than before... I can't really tell. It runs differently, but I can't describe how. Accelleration is very smooth, but when I hold it at 3,000-3,500 RPM while riding it sounds like it's gurgling or sputtering a little. All other ranges are clear. Is this normal?
Quote from: Lotsokids on July 01, 2011, 06:11:33 AM
I got the beast on the road today. It pulls very hard and smooth - maybe a little more power than before... I can't really tell. It runs differently, but I can't describe how. Accelleration is very smooth, but when I hold it at 3,000-3,500 RPM while riding it sounds like it's gurgling or sputtering a little. All other ranges are clear. Is this normal?
You are into the needle jet area now....you may need to raise them some...and your air/fuel screws need to be out to maybe 3 turns...this gave mine a nice clean transition and smoothed things out at 3-4000 rpm.
Quote from: turbocamino on July 01, 2011, 02:25:50 PM
Quote from: Lotsokids on July 01, 2011, 06:11:33 AM
I got the beast on the road today. It pulls very hard and smooth - maybe a little more power than before... I can't really tell. It runs differently, but I can't describe how. Accelleration is very smooth, but when I hold it at 3,000-3,500 RPM while riding it sounds like it's gurgling or sputtering a little. All other ranges are clear. Is this normal?
You are into the needle jet area now....you may need to raise them some...and your air/fuel screws need to be out to maybe 3 turns...this gave mine a nice clean transition and smoothed things out at 3-4000 rpm.
Unless you installed bigger pilots..... I have #40s in mine and the screws are all around 1 turn.
Hey, Ive got a question or two...
Im thinking of getting some pod filters for my 1990 FJ
Been recommended to get UNI dual pods
How long do these last before need to replace?
Whats the best oil to use? Locally I have seen Motul (and nothing else)
What is best to clean them with? And how often?
Also been told that if I leave the OEM exhaust on that I should not need to change carb jets
Also do I need to oil the crank case breather filter?
And can someone explain the crankcase breather function please?
I had an instance where this hose came off from the airbox and the engine ran like crap and was spitting fuel (very much like what happened when a carbie boot to the airbox came loose)
thanks
James
Quote from: Tengu on July 05, 2011, 07:21:29 PM
Hey, Ive got a question or two...
Im thinking of getting some pod filters for my 1990 FJ
Been recommended to get UNI dual pods
How long do these last before need to replace?
Whats the best oil to use? Locally I have seen Motul (and nothing else)
What is best to clean them with? And how often?
Also been told that if I leave the OEM exhaust on that I should not need to change carb jets
Also do I need to oil the crank case breather filter?
And can someone explain the crankcase breather function please?
I had an instance where this hose came off from the airbox and the engine ran like crap and was spitting fuel (very much like what happened when a carbie boot to the airbox came loose)
thanks
James
James..... my first set of Dual Pods lasted 5 years, with regular 6 monthly cleaning and re-oiling. I'm on my second set now (thanks Randy).
I've only ever used UNI filter oil - still on the original 1 litre bottle.
True - I doubt you would need to change jets if you stick to the relatively more restrictive OEM exhaust as you are not changing the back pressure (but you will probably have to tweek the tuning at the pilot jets).
No, you do not need to oil the crankcase filter - oil in the crankcase will oil it for you - it is allowing pressure out of the crankcase, not drawing air in. Mine is a paper type contained in a metal mesh, I just wash it in some Mineral Tups if it gets too filthy.
The breather allows crankcase pressure to escape (pressure in the crankcase is mainly due to the fact that there is always some compression leakage past the piston rings) - with the OEM air box this pressure is introduced into the airbox on the filtered side and this somewhat oil laden air is then combusted (hence an over-filling of oil in the crankcase will produce a smoking exhaust). If the hose falls off the airbox, unfiltered and un-pressurised air is introduced into the intake - which in turn alters the vacuum that the carbs see - thus altering the tune.
Harvy
Great - thanks for that, makes much more sense now
Quote from: Harvy on July 05, 2011, 08:48:47 PM
I've only ever used UNI filter oil - still on the original 1 litre bottle.
True - I doubt you would need to change jets if you stick to the relatively more restrictive OEM exhaust as you are not changing the back pressure (but you will probably have to tweek the tuning at the pilot jets)
I will be getting my pods from Randy as soon as I get my head around everything!
I havent heard back from him yet if he sells the UNI filter oil as I couldnt find it on his site (that might be my fault!)
What to clean the pod filters with tho? Stick with turps for all? The motul cleaner looks like a degreaser. I have a great citrus degreaser but have no idea what it would do to filter foam. Another source sounds like it means to use a mix of petrol and turps, but I would think the petrol would be destructive on the foam
tuning the pilot jets? Im a bit new to that side of things so excuse the lack of knowledge (I will only need to ask once)
Quote from: Tengu on July 05, 2011, 09:30:45 PM
Great - thanks for that, makes much more sense now
Quote from: Harvy on July 05, 2011, 08:48:47 PM
I've only ever used UNI filter oil - still on the original 1 litre bottle.
True - I doubt you would need to change jets if you stick to the relatively more restrictive OEM exhaust as you are not changing the back pressure (but you will probably have to tweek the tuning at the pilot jets)
I will be getting my pods from Randy as soon as I get my head around everything!
I havent heard back from him yet if he sells the UNI filter oil as I couldnt find it on his site (that might be my fault!)
What to clean the pod filters with tho? Stick with turps for all? The motul cleaner looks like a degreaser. I have a great citrus degreaser but have no idea what it would do to filter foam. Another source sounds like it means to use a mix of petrol and turps, but I would think the petrol would be destructive on the foam
tuning the pilot jets? Im a bit new to that side of things so excuse the lack of knowledge (I will only need to ask once)
You can find the filter oil at most auto stores - does not have to be UNI, that's just what I use.
UNI recommend their filter cleaning solution (I don't have a clue what's in it). I have used turps mostly, but hot water and dish-washing liquid will do a good job too (either way, make sure they are dry b4 re-oiling). Can't comment on the Motul - have never used it. I would not use petrol myself - tho I guess it "should" be ok at a pinch.
My mistake.......I should have typed "fuel screw setting" - NOT "pilot jets".
The pods allow more air, so you may find that you have to allow a little more fuel into the mix. From memory (it was a fair time back when I did mine the first time) I went an extra 1/2 turn richer. I've since replaced jets and emulsion tubes and my current setup is 3.5 turns out - but that may not apply in your situation.
Cheers
Harvy
Quote from: Tengu on July 05, 2011, 09:30:45 PM
Great - thanks for that, makes much more sense now
Quote from: Harvy on July 05, 2011, 08:48:47 PM
I've only ever used UNI filter oil - still on the original 1 litre bottle.
True - I doubt you would need to change jets if you stick to the relatively more restrictive OEM exhaust as you are not changing the back pressure (but you will probably have to tweek the tuning at the pilot jets)
I will be getting my pods from Randy as soon as I get my head around everything!
I havent heard back from him yet if he sells the UNI filter oil as I couldnt find it on his site (that might be my fault!)
What to clean the pod filters with tho? Stick with turps for all? The motul cleaner looks like a degreaser. I have a great citrus degreaser but have no idea what it would do to filter foam. Another source sounds like it means to use a mix of petrol and turps, but I would think the petrol would be destructive on the foam
tuning the pilot jets? Im a bit new to that side of things so excuse the lack of knowledge (I will only need to ask once)
Simple Green works great. Do not use No-Toil oil or cleaner(looks like TSP, some sort of powder), it WILL eat the glue UNI uses!! Other than that, I don't know of any other cleaners to NOT use. UNI has a lifetime warranty, they just replaced one of my pods because the rubber flange tore somehow. No questions asked, they just sent me a new one after recieving the old one.
Can anyone post a picture of the location of this mixture adjustment screw?
Also, a friend was behind me when I nailed the throttle. He said my bike was pouring out a LOT of smoke. Did I go too big on the main jets or could this be oil ring blowby?
What color was the smoke?
blk to much fuel.
blue oil blow by.
Bob W
Agree with bob. If it's too much fuel, float heights could be the problem if it's on the initial blast of cracking the gas on. If it starts black and stays black, you're too rich.
Ask your plugs what they think.
Quote from: Lotsokids on July 06, 2011, 10:33:23 AM
Can anyone post a picture of the location of this mixture adjustment screw?
Have a look here, Andy posted and listed pics of everything (and then some)
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4281.msg37745#msg37745 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4281.msg37745#msg37745)
Quote from: Travis398 on July 06, 2011, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: Lotsokids on July 06, 2011, 10:33:23 AM
Can anyone post a picture of the location of this mixture adjustment screw?
Have a look here, Andy posted and listed pics of everything (and then some)
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4281.msg37745#msg37745 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4281.msg37745#msg37745)
Right on. Thank you!!!
Andy - I'll check the plugs when I tear into the bike again soon. I'll need to check the floats - I should have when I had the carbs apart... duh.
Quote from: andyb on July 06, 2011, 02:46:54 PM
If it starts black and stays black, you're too rich.
I just asked my friend, and he said it was black smoke. He said he thought I turned it into a diesel. :rofl2:
I need to:
- Adjust the mixture screws. I suppose I need a vacuum guage to get it accurate?
- Check / adjust the floats
- Is 122.5 too much on the mains for my stock bike with only air filter and exhaust mods?
Quote
I need to:
- Adjust the mixture screws. I suppose I need a vacuum guage to get it accurate?
- Check / adjust the floats
- Is 122.5 too much on the mains for my stock bike with only air filter and exhaust mods?
-Nah. Won't change anything with blowing black at high revs, but it's pretty easyish to do.
-Yup. If it goes black immediately when you slap the butterflies open and calms down after a few seconds, floats (or leaking past the seats) would be high on the suspect list.
-Wasn't for mine, assuming individual air filters rather than a drop-in type.
One thing that just occured to me though, what's the gas quality like way over there? That'll change the tune a bit, I'll wager, though you wouldn't think by so very much.
The other question would be looking for ovaled emulsion tubes, if it's getting fat on the needles.
Quote from: andyb on July 07, 2011, 07:50:46 AM
-Wasn't for mine, assuming individual air filters rather than a drop-in type.
One thing that just occured to me though, what's the gas quality like way over there? That'll change the tune a bit, I'll wager, though you wouldn't think by so very much.
The other question would be looking for ovaled emulsion tubes, if it's getting fat on the needles.
Yes, I have individual air filters
I have 3 choices of fuel here in Hungary which obviously get progressively more expensive. All from Shell gas:
1.) Unleaded 95 - $8.25 per gallon
2.) V-Power 95 (This is what I use - kind of like super unleaded)
3.) V-Power Racing (super expensive and not worth buying for my daily ridden bike)
I was also told to go up a couple notches on my needle. Does this mean remove the clip and re-clip toward the top (end) of the needle or toward the bottom (tapered end)? Would this still be a factor in my rich condition?
Move the clip UP to lean, this drops the needle lower in the emulsion tube.
Quote from: andyb on July 06, 2011, 02:46:54 PM
Ask your plugs what they think.
I asked them and they told me it was too hot or lean. Could this have been caused PRIOR to installing the new [bigger] pilot and main jets with only modified exhaust?
Doesn't seem to make sense that I would be running rich, pouring out black smoke at WOT, and the plugs covered with white deposits. Sorry, the picture is a little blurry.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/Lotsokids/FJ1200/103_0258.jpg)
That does look lean to me. Do they all look like that. How long after your high-speed run did you pull these?
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on July 18, 2011, 12:00:13 PM
That does look lean to me. Do they all look like that. How long after your high-speed run did you pull these?
Dan
Yes, they all look like this one. The high-speed run was a little over a week ago, and it was only about 20 seconds long.
The black smoke at WOT still puzzles me. It doesn't seem that they should go together. :unknown:
Just took it for a ride. It's very sluggish and slow to respond under 2,000 RPM. Feels very clear and powerful above that.
To this point:
1. I adjusted the clip on the top of the needles up one (leaner - at the second groove from the top now).
2. All the mixture screws were originally about 3 turns out - I adjusted all to 2 turns out.
3. I still need to sync the carbs. I'm sure they are off.
Today's update:
I'm second guessing my decision on the engine running rich after seeing those plugs. I talked to my friend today about the smoke he saw behind me, and he said now it may have been blue smoke. That was an important detail. I removed and inspected the #4 plug again since I cleaned it yesterday. It looked light in color again, almost pink. Anyway, here's the latest.
1. I'm now 3 1/2 turns out on the mixture screws. They seem to respond to revs well.
2. Syncronized the carbs - they are all completely even after some adjustments.
3. I adjusted the clips on the needles down one notch (richer) than when I started all this. I'm at the second notch from the bottom now.
4. I just noticed I have no crankcase breather filter. That explains the smoke coming up at my knees at idle when hot.
5. New valve cover gasket installed.
Now, if I rev it and hold it at about 3,500 RPM, it's still popping a little, but revs are clear with no hesitation. At 40,000 miles, I'm not ruling out some crud on my valves or seats.
After all this, the forecast calls for 4 days of rain. Great. :sorry:
As you're now fully aware, there's multiple circuits within the carbs that control fueling at different airflow demand levels. So it's possible to be pig rich at idle, lean through the midrange, and fat as hell on top. Anything's possible!
Just work through things progressively. If you want to catch smoke, you may even want to swap bikes and have someone ride yours while you trail them and watch. Make sure it's smoke on WOT (carbs or rings) and not on trailing throttle (usually valve seals).
If anyone is interested, I can provide a method to maintain factory specifications when installing pod filters without modifying anything other than the filter. Unless interested in the increase in the power band claimed by those who promote pod filters for this purpose rather than ease of carburetor maintenance, this method will allow an installation without any noticeable effect on starting and running throughout the power band.
Why not go ahead and post it up?
DavidR.
Quote from: Len Redmond on July 30, 2011, 08:56:39 AM
If anyone is interested, I can provide a method to maintain factory specifications when installing pod filters without modifying anything other than the filter.
Let me guess...it's a flow restrictor installed in the pods, no thanks.
Len Redmond:
I'd be interested. I put pods on both a '79 XS750 and an '87 Concours primarily for convenience sake. I've considered the same here for my '86 FJ1200. I'd like to know the simplest way to do it. Thanks.
Hans
Yes do tell.. Ive just put pods in...
plan on working on mixture screws tomorrow