So a Hog Driver was telling me the reason that the Harley burns out their valves at such low mileage (40,000km for this fellow) was due to the ethenol content in all gasolines nowa-days ( I think 10% is standard--in Canada anyhow). Says the older bikes were not designed to ingest it. The only way to avoid it is by filling up with (way-to-expensive) Shell premium.
Is there need for an older FJ pilot to worry about burning out expensive things with cheap(er) ethenol blends? Or is this Hog Driver blowing wind to justify putting up with his bucket of bolts?
I'd love to hear some opinions from those who truely appreciate well engineered and quality constructed pieces equipment.
Thanks
Bye the way..sorry guys, but I just picked up a '83 Honda Interceptor 750..sure rides bad compared to the FJ
Harleys have a hard time with cooling. They always have and they always will have. The rear cylinder has a exhaust valve at the back of the motor that gets very little air flow. That's the valve that burns.
The fuel injected Harleys are better, more precise, they can run the #2 cylinder fat(er). Synthetic oil helps the motors, but still the cooling issue remains. Harleys run the highest octane available to prevent predetonation due to compression and heat from poor cooling.
Hot summer days here in Palm Desert, 115*f with street temps over 130* many Harleys have cooked their exhaust valves idling from one stoplight to another along Hwy 111.... About 3 stoplights would do it......
Quote from: dbelch on April 21, 2011, 07:40:01 PM
Bye the way..sorry guys, but I just picked up a '83 Honda Interceptor 750..sure rides bad compared to the FJ
Yea, I test rode a 750 and 500 Interceptor before I decided on buying my FJ. The Honda's had no Kookaloo...at all.
Thanks for the reply, now I'm curious, how does the FJ do siting at the stop lights in that kind of heat? My Hog driving buddy says he has to avoid cruising the congested beach roads in the middle of the summer heat.
To a degree, all air cooled motors struggle when there is no air flow, Harleys are the worst, a BMW boxer twin probably the best.
Inline 4's like the FJ where the exhaust valves are in front, thereby getting plenty of air, cool down nicely once underway but still...
You do not want to let a air cooled motor (any motor) sit and idle for long. Stuck in traffic idling is the worst. In Calif. we can lane split so that's what I do.....I've had plenty of hot weather riding with my FJ with no problems. A crankcase full of fresh, good quality synthetic oil will do wonders.
So, in your opinion, do feel the ethanol content is a none-issue...would your response correspond with say, someone from Iowa?
No, the blend of the gas can be a issue. i.e. not all gas is the same, some better, some worse. 10-15% ethanol is no big issue.
You're not talking about running E85 are you? That's a whole different bag of worms.
If you worry about gas quality vs. the FJ, don't worry. I run 89 octane in the summer just fine.
If you want to do something that will help your FJ in hot weather running, change out your oem 38.5 pilot jets to 40.0 and set your mixture screws to 2.5 to 3.5 turns out. The richer your fuel air mixture is at idle, the cooler your motor will be....(to a point)
Quote from: dbelch on April 21, 2011, 08:39:37 PM
So, in your opinion, do feel the ethanol content is a none-issue...would your response correspond with say, someone from Iowa?
Hey, Speaking of Iowa, guess where I live? LOL!
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel because of possible problems with the fuel systems on ANY of my vehicles.
Call it superstition, but I feel better knowing that I'm not using it.
Of course, I know other people use it for everything and have no problems with it.
I don't think there are any problems with the valves that I have ever heard of by using ethanol blended fuels.
If that is all you have to burn, you should be fine, but as of now, I still have a choice, so I don't use it, even though it is a little cheaper.
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel
But Leon, The Corn! You have to support the corn! What else would we do with it all?
Indy cars make plenty of power burning ethanol. They fail for a variety of reasons, but ethanol is not one of them. Same with high horsepower Sprint Cars. They run on Methanol.
DavidR.
NO. The pump says 10% it's closer to 15-20%. Ethanol is bad stuff :bad: sell corn as food = $ then buy fuel
The snowmobile racers were blowing motors up big time here in New England and Canada.
They were doing all the calculations for jetting and missing it every time. (based on 10%)
One day my VP friend did some sampling of pump gas from different retailers 15-18% in the US and 17-20% in Canada is what he found this was 2 years ago.
So don't be surprised, if jetting will need to richend up a little bit. Boats, lawn mowers, most small engines are having trouble with it.
When in storage it seperates, it absorbs moisture all the time, I can go on. (I have)
As for heat, my legend car runs 100 plus degrees hotter than my bike ever has in Maine.
So around here you would have to start it in your garage, forget about it, then run out to it when you did remember it, to white smoke coming out of it. And then you will try to sell it. :rofl2:
Bob W
Many years ago when ethanol was just arriving at the gas pumps, General Motors issued a technical service bulletin regarding varnish in the cylinders and valves from continual use of ethanol fuels of 10% or greater. As I recall they stated that the varnish, a by product of ethanol combustion, would lead to sticking valves, poor ring to cylinder seal and eventually oil consumption. They were pretty adamant about the owners not using ethanol fuels in GM cars except in an emergency.
Quote from: carsick on April 21, 2011, 09:15:00 PM
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel
But Leon, The Corn! You have to support the corn! What else would we do with it all?
I guess we could EAT it, but it gives me the shits, so I stay away from it for that reason, also!!
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:43:08 PM
Quote from: carsick on April 21, 2011, 09:15:00 PM
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel
But Leon, The Corn! You have to support the corn! What else would we do with it all?
I guess we could EAT it, but it gives me the shits, so I stay away from it for that reason, also!!
Thats a completely different type of gas, Thanks Leon That was funny.
Quote from: weymouth 399 on April 21, 2011, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:43:08 PM
Quote from: carsick on April 21, 2011, 09:15:00 PM
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel
But Leon, The Corn! You have to support the corn! What else would we do with it all?
I guess we could EAT it, but it gives me the shits, so I stay away from it for that reason, also!!
That's a completely different type of gas, Thanks Leon That was funny.
You're right, that would be methane, right? LOL!
Have a look at this (http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-) website, with reference to the motorcycle list towards the bottom of that page.
Bill.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 21, 2011, 08:31:26 PM
To a degree, all air cooled motors struggle when there is no air flow, Harleys are the worst, a BMW boxer twin probably the best....
One could argue that the Ariel square four was worse than the Harley.
How did the Porsche 930's deal with it? Great big fan?
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
Hey, Speaking of Iowa, guess where I live? LOL!
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel because of possible problems with the fuel systems on ANY of my vehicles.
Call it superstition, but I feel better knowing that I'm not using it.
Of course, I know other people use it for everything and have no problems with it.
I don't think there are any problems with the valves that I have ever heard of by using ethanol blended fuels.
If that is all you have to burn, you should be fine, but as of now, I still have a choice, so I don't use it, even though it is a little cheaper.
Leon, how is it that you in Iowa get a choice? Here to the north of you we are mandated to 10% year round.
You see, back in the late 1980's the state of Minnesota decided that we had a pollution problem. The solution, they thought at the time, was to spend millions of dollars to build about a dozen "Emissions Testing Stations" in the Twin Cities Metro area and a few in Duluth (the two areas with the most serious polloution issues). They then paid an outside contractor to run the whole thing and thereby gouge the motorist $5.00 per car for a "Testing Fee".
The test was a joke, really. As you lived here at that time, I'm sure you recall the procedure. They opened your fuel cap to verify that the flow inlet restrictor was still present (since up until about 1987 one could still buy leaded gas for about $.10 cheaper per gallon) by jamming a piece of PVC pipe in there. Then they took a shoe mirror to peek at the underside of your car to verify if the catalytic converter was still there. Finally, they shoved a probe up your tailpipe (literally and figuratively, I guess) to see whether you stunk. It was all a farce really; at the end of the first year they determined that the perceived pollution level was still higher in the winter.
It was at that time that the State of Minnesota mandated the seasonal use of "oxygenated" fuel to lower emissions. The first season of that was brutal! The ethanol managed to clean up some of the accumulated crud in the local fuel network, and you couldn't find clean fuel in the metro area. As an interesting footnote to the whole thing, the state ultimately cancelled the whole program in 1997, having determined (2) things:
- That the emission test failure rate was virtually nil after the first year. They determined that they must have removed the serious emissions violators from the streets.
- That if they mandated year round use of ethanol added fuels, that it would supposedly improve both the environment and the economy (as we grow corn here, too).
The end result here is that every pump in the state dispenses a 90%-10% ethanol blend. The only exceptions are at some fuel stations near larger lakes where non-oxygenated fuel is available for off-road use. Interestingly, the state sold off their emissions testing stations at silent auction for about 20% of the cost it took to build them. Who wouldn't love to own a extra-wide double deep six bay shop with offices for about $50k?
I'm just saying, Leon: you're pretty damned lucky to have a choice.
I remember the testing Mike, what a joke!
I even went as far as to registering one of my cars back in Iowa to get around the testing.
(car had a modified exhaust that I was not willing to change)
An my other car ran like crap during the winter months, and it was all due to the fuel.
The asses at Main Motors were no help at all!
Can't really say that I miss living up there!
I'll snap a picture at the pumps tonight when I fill the car up, so I'm not talking outa my ass about it.
Quote from: carsick on April 21, 2011, 09:15:00 PM
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 21, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
I choose NOT to burn the ethanol fuel
But Leon, The Corn! You have to support the corn! What else would we do with it all?
(popcorn) (popcorn) :biggrin:
Reading this didn't make my day, but it seems to explain a lot of the FJ running/starting issues people keep complaining about.
Quote
REASONS WHY ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN SOME OLDER VEHICLES
Introduction
The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made before 1986. This information is also applicable to post-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.
Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.
Carburettor Equipped Engines
Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.
The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.
Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.
As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.
Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable.
Quote from: 1tinindian on April 22, 2011, 09:14:25 AM
I remember the testing Mike, what a joke!
I even went as far as to registering one of my cars back in Iowa to get around the testing.
(car had a modified exhaust that I was not willing to change)
An my other car ran like crap during the winter months, and it was all due to the fuel.
The asses at Main Motors were no help at all!
Can't really say that I miss living up there!
I'll snap a picture at the pumps tonight when I fill the car up, so I'm not talking outa my ass about it.
Here is that picture I promised.
The 87 is .10 cents higher than the 89 ethanol.
Like I said before, I'll not use ethanol until it's the only fuel availible in my area.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/1tinindian/100_5166.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/1tinindian/100_5167.jpg)
amazing..thanks for the info and photo's..I'll have to have a closer look at our pumps here in Ontario to see exactly what our options are..should I expect any running differences if I chose to fill-up with the 91 octane non-ethenol, besides a lighter wallet. (golly, I filled her up today with regular 10% ethenol with the fuel light on and the reserve switched on..cost $24 good Canadian bucks..which would be approximently equal to $25.20 George Washingtons)
Sure is fun blowing that out the tail pipes tho :good2: