I am recently in possession of a complete front and rear end off of a 2007 R1! The parts are fantastic and I am hoping to mount both ends on my 1993 FJ1200.
I have been reading a lot here about all the various wheel and suspension mods. I think I have plan for the front and I am optimistic the the entire front end will go on (I will need two inch fork extenders). The rear end is looking like a bigger challenge so I have a few questions (yes I did search 1000 times).
1- what is the width of the stock FJ swing arm at the mount pivot?
2- what is the stock front end geometry; Rake Trail and Offset?
3- does anyone have knowledge of a 6" wide rear wheel successfully used on a late model FJ?
The parts are so nice- I got them for a song and as they sit on the garage floor next to the FJ I am super excited about bringing the FJ to the next level and not selling it!
Much appreciation to anyone that can shed light on any of the above three questions!
Cheers- tim
2: 27.5° rake and 112mm trail
I don't think the forks/wheel are setup for a speedo drive.I think they run a sensor off the tranny.The shock mount linkage on the swingarm is different than any of the FJ's.The six inch wheel will be a bit of work.
Quote from: axiom-r on December 11, 2010, 07:10:31 PM
1- what is the width of the stock FJ swing arm at the mount pivot?
9.697" per Marc Rittners write up on the YZF1000 Thunder Ace swing arm conversion on Barry's site: http://www.fjmods.btinternet.co.uk/MarcRittner.htm (http://www.fjmods.btinternet.co.uk/MarcRittner.htm)
You may consider using the YZF750 needle thrust bearings Marc used in his conversion. I have them on my T-Ace swing arms. They are cool.
As mentioned, you need to think about your speedo.
Frank Kookaloo Moore converted his over to electric with a custom display, very cool indeed, but then again, his whole fucking bike is cool....
Pat,
I think your FJ is bretty badass also..... AND shiney! :good2:
dash option....... dang if modifying aint a sickness :wacko3:
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/Racerman27410/IMG_0738.jpg~original)
Andy- thanks for that info! I was surprised that those specs were not more easily found on the web!
Pat- I had to go back and look at Marc's write up again- I missed the swingarm dimensions thanks for pointing it out. I doubt very much that the R1 swinger will work on the FJ as the pivot is over 10". I am going to try though. I have been looking with great interest at Frank's modded gauge. I decided that I really need to keep my stock instruments because my 93 has only 13k original miles and is in very good condition. I want the suspension upgrades but a close to stock look at the bars etc. I will probably start looking for some first gen FZ1 wheels to use so that I can keep my speedo- that means these sweet 07 R1 wheels will be up for grabs.
I found this extender (here on the FJowner's board I think) that might work to allow the nearly 3" shorter 2007 R1 forks to mount. Shown just below the top triple- the extender slips over the fork top and then steps back down to 50mm adding 1-2 inches to the fork length.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4370/36847669701_40509739b5_o.jpg)
Here are the parts I scored:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4369/36179389933_0367726845_o.jpg)
And here's the FJ I want to land them on:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4352/36800413816_7e545e4401_z.jpg)
I am hoping to keep the stock exhaust system as I have one of the SS Delkevic collector boxes. Does the FZ1 Thunderace swingarm allow the stock exhaust or does it require an aftermarket system?
looks like a nice setup, I haven't seen this. Do you have anymore info on it? It would be nice to know if it was custom made, or on an FJ.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/backburner/CycleOneOffForkExtenders.jpg~original)
The 2002 FZ1 front end on my bike does not support a mechanical speedo drive. I think thats gen 1..... I went with a Garmin GPS for my speedo.
Eric M
Travis- they are from a company called Cycle One Off...http://www.cycleoneoff.com/Photo_Album.html (http://www.cycleoneoff.com/Photo_Album.html) scroll down from the top to locate them.
Picture shows them mounted on a V-Rod I think.... Don't tell anyone I am considering aftermarket HD parts for my FJ!!!
The downside on these is that they are not adjustable- you have to pick an extension size in advance (1" - 2" or a custom length) and then because of the shoulder design on the part they will only ride at that given extended height. I have seen some extender fork caps that thread into the fork tops and are at the same 50mm diameter so you can slide the front end up or down in the clamps to adjust the front ride height as needed- unfortunately (for me), these cap replacements are very expensive and only available for the 09+ R1 forks.
Yamifj12000: I stand corrected- I need to find 97-03 YZF1000R wheels. As stated by another member here these are the only wheels that allow for the R1 Brakes and maintain a mechanical speedo drive.... I am hoping to do a direct swap with someone that has equally nice YZF1000r wheels!
Quote from: axiom-r on December 12, 2010, 01:18:19 PM
I decided that I really need to keep my stock instruments because my 93 has only 13k original miles and is in very good condition. I want the suspension upgrades but a close to stock look at the bars etc.
Tim, for your front end, if you want modern cartridge forks (you do) *and* keep your speedo, a popular option is the YZF600 fork conversion. This is a conventional fork but with springs and Race Tech cartridges, a very good fork.
If you want the newer design upside down (usd) forks, and keep your speedo, 2 options are the 1994-98 YZF750 forks as done by Marc Rittner documented on Barry Edward's web site (posted above)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/1_30_09_10_11_35_18.jpeg)
Or the 1992 FZR1000 USD conversion shown here:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_13_12_09_7_52_07.jpeg)
In all cases, you gotta change your bars:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_13_12_09_9_13_36.jpeg)
Cartridge forks are the way to go....
Quote from: axiom-r on December 12, 2010, 01:18:19 PM
I am hoping to keep the stock exhaust system as I have one of the SS Delkevic collector boxes. Does the FZ1 Thunderace swingarm allow the stock exhaust or does it require an aftermarket system?
You mean the 1997 YZF1000 Thunder Ace swing arm? Yes, you can keep your stock exhaust. Worst case is that on your '93 you may need to bend the black frame brackets out a smig to clear exhaust can mounting bolts with the swing arm. You can even fit some nice light weight slip ons like I did here:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_13_12_09_8_03_56.jpeg)
Notice in the picture below, to get clearance between the exhaust can mounting bolt and the swing arm, don't put the nut on the inside against the swingarm like the oem setup. I used a low profile round head cap bolt and put the cap head on the inside, facing the swing arm, then installed a stainless steel acorn nut on the outside (with blue Locktight) Voila! Clearance. I think it doesn't look too bad.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_13_12_09_8_22_49.jpeg)
Pat, that bike is an inspiration! I knew that I would be losing the stock bars since they will not fit onto the R1 USD forks.... so I am thinking about this set up I spotted on the FZ1 board. These Easton bars and clamps look sweet and will easily mount onto the R1 top triple with a quick drill and tap of the existing clip on locating bolt holes. The holes are a bit more widely spaced than the typical bar mounts would be but the long flat section of the Easton bars allow for this. If I can source an FZ1 top triple then I can use the rubber mounting as shown in the picture too. The FZ1 shown has 09 R1 forks installed in the stock FZ1 Triple Top. It also has the custom made Fork Cap replacements that extend the forks 16+mm.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4399/36591076620_3bae6b6a6f_o.jpg)
At this point I am thinking about using the following gear (partly because this stuff is already here in the garage and partly because these are the components proven to work by those that have come before me).
Front End:
2007 R1 USD forks- modded with extenders to bring them up to FJ length.
2007 R1 6 piston calipers on 320mm floating discs
94-98 YZF750 or 1000 Front Wheel (I believe these are the same)
(I do not know if the YZF wheel's three spokes are thin enough to fit between the 6 piston caliper's gap when mounted to the 07 R1 fork. I also don't know if the YZF brake rotors are offset properly to match the R1 caliper position- hoping this is a standard offset that stayed the same).
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4337/36179390113_615148feeb_o.jpg)
Rear End:
1997 Thunderace Swingarm
(Pat you caught a typo on my part I had stated FZ1 Thunderace Swingarm but it is the 97 YZF I am shooting for. I am seeing inconsistent info on the production of the Thunderace- was it only offered in the US until 97 but continued production overseas through 2003?)
94-98 YZF750 or 1000 rear wheel. (I believe these are the same and hopefully no fitment issues with the Thunderace swingarm). I do want to run a 180 rear tire so I am assuming that I will have to recess the sprocket, shave the cush-drive or both to achieve chain clearence
2007 R1 Rear Caliper and carrier. (Hoping these mate with the YZF rear wheel without too hassle).
Penske Rear Shock with the adjustable type of dog-bones so that I can dial in the ride height as needed. - planning to shave the shock well on the swingarm and remove some of the light gusseting as suggested for clearance.
I am going to mess with this massive R1 swingarm first and see if there is any chance it will fit. After spending some more time with it this afternoon I think the pivot can be shaved down to fit the FJ just like the Thunderace process described by Marc Ritter- I am much less sure about the massive under bracing clearing the stock exhaust- I am gonna check it out though! My other concern with this arm is that is it about 2inches longer from pivot to axle so it will add to the overall wheelbase.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4350/36590967690_f62460f221_o.jpg)
Stock exhaust set up polished stock downtubes (are these really SS?) with the Delkevic SS collector box and stock black chrome mufflers...
I've know for awhile that I wanted to upgrade the FJ suspension and wheels but finding this R1 stuff put me into motion. Not sure how long its going to take me but the FJ will probably come apart over the holiday.... Should be a good time! :yahoo:
Quote from: axiom-r on December 12, 2010, 01:18:19 PM
Andy- thanks for that info! I was surprised that those specs were not more easily found on the web!
Sorry, it was easily found on the web. Actually it was on this site already.
As was the offset, but I was in a hurry yesterday. 35mm.
You'll find a tiny bit of information here (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=616.msg5744#msg5744) but he's using the earlier forks. Don't know if the YZF1000R wheel would still work and let you retain the speedo drive or not.
Quote from: axiom-r on December 12, 2010, 08:08:54 PM
My other concern with this arm is that is it about 2inches longer from pivot to axle so it will add to the overall wheelbase.
The FZ1 swingarm is also longer by about the same amount...... not a problem with the rear end raised using adjustable dogbones.
Harvy
There are a few yzf750r arms on ebay as well as at least one thunderace arm.There are a few yzf750 and 1000 rear wheels too.You will need to come up with a pin on the fork to stop the speedo drive from spinning.The calipers look just like my yzf 750 calipers.Worst case you will need to make an adapter plate for them.I have now idea if the fj steering stem will easilly fit into the r1 triple clamps.
axiom-r,
Realize that if you're using tubular bars that mount to clamps on the top triple, then your fork does not need to be the same length as the FJ fork. You won't have to have the length that sticks above the top triple and gets the clip-on bar mounted to it. That's probably 30mm or so.
Arnie
Thanks Arnie! The R1 forks are about 3 inches shorter. I knew that I would not need to recover all of that because of the handlebars as you mention but also because the FJ handling is known to benefit from dropping the front end a bit. I was shooting for a 2 inch extension so that most of the gap would be recovered and (with the right extender) I would still be able to adjust the front ride height slightly at the clamps.
Better to raise the rear than lower the front. Easier on the hard parts.
DavidR.
I have a 2004 R1 swingarm on my fj 1200. it was on my 1100 until i transfered it this fall. take a look i have some pics on here. also wasnt too much work. a lot easier then figuring out how much of the cush drive needed machined out to stuff a larger wheel in the stock swingarm. and of course the usuals.. adjustable doglink, custom upper shock bracket-easy to put together, and a little time.
Hey Candieandy,
I did find a couple shots of your bike- it looks like the swingarm is braced on top so that would be a 2003 or earlier I think. I have the 2007 part and it is notched out for the exhaust on the right, braced below and has a pretty small space for the shock offset to the left for the exhaust etc. I would love to know more about your mod- was it similar to the Thunderace swingarm- shaving off a bit of each side on the pivot? What does your custom upper shock bracket look like?
cheers- tim
yeah it was like to thunderace transplant. they did change the swingarm design in 04 on the R1.my is from an 03 R1. the upper bracket i made binds against the old shock mount. i will post pics later if i can find them. its made out my old lower center stand and plated steel. welded and powdercoated. but i found that i have to rebuild the upper mount for the fj1200 as the upper mounts aren't in the same location as the fj1100
Well I have been continuing to collect up parts for the suspension mod I am preparing for and will post some more pictures soon.
I want to use the Thunderace Swingarm and a Penske Shock.
I have contacted Soupy's for some adjustable dogbone's and they asked me to choose between two available lengths to raise the rear end. Here is thier message:
"because the 92 FJ1200 has fairly short dogbone's to begin with, its kinda hard for us to make an adjustable version that's even shorter. we can help you although there will be a $30 additional charge for the custom work so the total will be $121 + shipping. 2 options as follows: 4.5 inches to 6 inches center to center. these should be capable of raising the rear up to 1.5 inches. the other option is 4 inches to 5.25 inches center to center and should be capable of raising the rear up to 3 inches. we could make these in about a day for you. if you would like them, let me know your paypal email address and which shipping option you would like and we'll send you an invoice to pay on paypal. thanks, Soupys."
So the questions are, with the mod plans I have:
- What is the range of lengths that would be desirable?
- Is it likely that I will want the full 3 inches of additional ride height or is 1.5 inches of additional ride height going to be more than enough?
- Is the $121 plus shipping consistent pricing?
It appears that the stock DB's are approximately 6 and 1/8th inches long and approximately 5 inches center to center (measured loosely on the bike).
I found (during my extensive search of the Forum) that members have established 5mm shorter equals 1.5 inches raised.
I found lots of info but nothing that stated outright the length of the shorter bones....
AndyB I saw a comment you made regarding being able to go from +.5" to -3" in 10 minutes. Is this using Soupy's bones? Does that mean you can increase dogbone length .5" and decease it 3"?
As always- thanks in advance for any wisdom! I am leaning towards Soupy's option two for a max increase in height of 3".
tim
When I bought my Penske, I ordered it with the ride height adjustment. It is a simple adjustment, and there is only 1 instead of 2 dogbones that ( I guess) need to be identical length. Just a thought ...
Quote from: axiom-r on January 07, 2011, 05:32:14 PM
"because the 92 FJ1200 has fairly short dogbone's to begin with, its kinda hard for us to make an adjustable version that's even shorter. we can help you although there will be a $30 additional charge for the custom work so the total will be $121 + shipping. 2 options as follows: 4.5 inches to 6 inches center to center. these should be capable of raising the rear up to 1.5 inches. the other option is 4 inches to 5.25 inches center to center and should be capable of raising the rear up to 3 inches. we could make these in about a day for you. if you would like them, let me know your paypal email address and which shipping option you would like and we'll send you an invoice to pay on paypal. thanks, Soupys."
tim
HI Tim.......not sure if this is going to help your decision making......but here is what I have.
'91 FJ with 2002 FZ1 swing-arm and currently OEM shock on OEM linkage.
I have Soupy's adjustable bones.
They are set at 5" centre to centre - with the bike on the centre stand I can just slide my little finger between the rear tyre and the ground.
HTH
Harvy
Using a different swingarm will alter the pickup points for the dogbones so i would not order anything until you have it all mocked up and can actually measure and verify the length dogbones necessary..... then it's a simple matter to just make the length dogbones you need from steel plate or order the ones you know will have the adjustment range you're looking for.
JMO,
Kookaloo!
Frank
Thanks Ed, Harvy and racerman- all good points, perspective and info. I am going to go ahead and deal with the swingarm install first and address the dogbones when I can confirm measurements.
Another issue has come up that I did not really recognize until last night while I stood staring at my pile of parts caliper and tape in hand.....
The Thunderace swingarm does not clear the stock exhaust..... :mad:
So, if I am going to have to go with a new exhaust system too (I wanted to keep the stock one) I might as well look into a custom pipe bent to fit with the 07 R1 swingarm. I think the easiest path would be to use the Thunderace arm with some XJR1300 cans which have a wider gap between the connector pipes to the collector box. But, the 07 R1 swingarm looks like it will mount via the same mods as the Thunderace and it is notched out on the right side for an under seat exhaust set up. Looking at my FJ with the Givi's mounted- there is a nice space between the baggage mounts and the bike- it is feasible that with a custom bent pipe I could create a pretty unique exhaust set up.
Here is the Thunderace arm with the 6" wide 07 R1 rear wheel. The axles are the same length and diameter so the wheel went right on with plenty of room and will only need the right spacers for centering. Then of course, I'll have to deal with the chain alignment issues.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4418/36590967850_dc4c800182_o.jpg)
Here is the R1 swinger next to the Thunderace: Notice the cutaway for the exhaust on the right side. It would be uber cool to make use of this and have a custom pipe.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4348/36590967960_fb68f533b2_o.jpg)
I love the look of the 5 spoke R1 wheels and would really like to use the forks and swingarm too. I bought an extra speedo drive to destroy trying to see if i can make it work with the R1 front wheel. If I can have it reduced in width and still function I may be able to convert the R1 wheel to work with the stock speedo. Or I could give up on the stock speedo and just stick a small digital speedo onto my dash somewhere with the pick-up on the front or rear wheel.
I am getting excited to dig in on the bike but I am going to leave it together for use while I deal with the triple clamp conversion (pressing the FJ steering stem into the R1 lower tree) and prepare/locate the rest of the parts.
FJR1? I hope so!
tim
Quote from: axiom-r on January 08, 2011, 12:27:34 PM
The Thunderace swingarm does not clear the stock exhaust..... :mad:
tim
Let me ease your pain by taking that evil, frustrating swingarm away so you can focus on the R1 arm.
Doug
ah carsick, I think its the R1 arm that is the evil, frustrating PITA!! But if I can get it to work you are first in line for the T-Ace! I also collected up the FZ1 wheels so if the R1 stuff goes on I will have most of the stuff needed for another FJ conversion.
I did find this one pretty quick from a dismantler in Florida- $150 shipped.
Yup, you need another FJ to convert!
Well the transformation is underway. I decided not to wait and to start with the rear end because from what I know it is going to be the more complicated and challenging mod.
All the stock rear-end components are off and I have been able to begin the process of mocking up the R1 parts. The R1 arm goes into the space very nicely but until I trim the pivot area I cannot get it correctly lined up. I can see the chain offset is big enough to notice already. I am not sure about the R1 swingarm having the same centerline as the FJ. In Marc Rittner's ThunderAce write-up he has built a jig to determine that the T-Ace arm and the FJ arm have the same centerline. So I need to do this for the R1 arm. Hopefully that will be confirmed this weekend to be the same as the FJ.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4429/36179390503_d4f2c7627f_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4440/36800413906_1e5bb51a08_o.jpg)
I have removed the rear brake and the long lines to the ABS Pump. I think I want to remove my entire ABS system- can I do that without upsetting the remaining electrical system? As always- any and all advice / perspective / wisdom is appreciated!!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4396/36847673071_1f9a69da20_o.jpg)
I think others that have removed their ABS simply unplugged all the electrical connections and that was it.
DavidR.
Well..... I made some progress with the rear end. I had the R1 swingarm pivot cut down to match the FJ arm.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4415/36811626872_369d617e4d_o.jpg)
Then my machinist sectioned the R1 inner spacer removing enough material to match the length of the FJ inner spacer and welded it back together.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4398/36811626912_06db710032_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4404/36585946460_10e865e119_o.jpg)
The R1 inner spacer is a larger diameter and is only machined to a tight tolerance at the ends where the bearings ride- so we made some bushings about an inch long and with the correct ID for the FJ swingarm axle then pressed them into the ID of the R1 spacer and voila! The FJ swingarm axle now rides perfectly in the R1 sleeve. I ordered the pivot end caps from Yamaha for the R1 axle and they will have to be modified slightly to be used (made skinnier to fit on the reduced shoulder of the pivot). The center hole on the R1 caps will be too big as well but there is an inner washer in the FJ caps and those will be inserted in the new R1 caps so they should function just fine. I could not use the FJ caps because the R1 has a 2mm larger diameter on one side and 1.5mm larger on the other- no they are not the same size, thus I ordered R1 parts and we will make them work. Even the bearings on the R1 are different sizes- the bearing on the drive side (and the diameter of the pivot shoulder) is larger to support the stress of the drive train.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4341/36585946370_32360618ec_o.jpg)
R1 inner spacer with the FJ swingarm axle fitted.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4371/36811627042_083e0985a9_o.jpg)
I mocked up the swingarm and wheel to begin the process of dealing with the sprocket offset challenge and to measure for shock and dogbone length etc. One of the issues to address is that the FJ shock mounts are offset slightly to the chain side of the bike. The R1 swingarm is designed with the shock cavity offset even more (to the same side) so I will need some custom mounts (upper and lower) for the new Penske shock that will eventually take up residence on my FJR1. From the initial look it seems like I may be able to get away with spacers and collars and no welding on top- the bottom will require a new mount adapter. While I measure and deliberate over the shock and linkage issues I will have my machinist start the work on the triple trees. Taking the guidance provided by Marc Rittner and other smart board members, we will build up material on the press fit end of the triple spindle, machine it down to the correct size and press it into the R1 lower..... Here is the swing arm mock up- makes me smile!!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4377/36585946670_4fff929777_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4335/36983038965_f0c34937ee_o.jpg)
I would really prefer to use the stock exhaust as mine is in excellent condition and the black chrome cans look freaking awesome with the beefy black swing arm and black 5-spoke wheels. But it looks like the subframe would need to be spread about an inch to accommodate the R1 swinger so I will probably go with the Delkavic Stainless cans for XJR. One more upside to using the R1 stuff- there is no brake arm link between the rear caliper and the swing arm. The R1 design has a brake carrier that has a "notch-in" to hold it in place. Makes the rear look cleaner.
More to come!
Cheers- Tim
Wow Tim,
That is just a work of art. Very nice. :good: Just wondering, what do you have into this?
CraigO
90FJ1200
Well....
I scored the complete R1 front and rear ends for $800 from a low mileage bike that had some rough times- see the scrapes on the swinger....
Then I bought the ThunderAce swingarm and some FZR1000 wheels to compare and see what I liked best and what worked etc- $150 for the swingarm and $200 for the wheels- both these buys came with hardware including axles pivot shafts etc.
$100 for the R1 pivot machining from my local guy- I am lucky to have a skilled guy nearby that likes this stuff.
I still have to buy a penske shock- call that a $1000 shipped.
I still have a few more parts to machine - the cush drive, the triple clamps etc- another $200-300.
I bought a Delkavic SS collector box and will probably buy their down tube and muffler set in SS so about another $500 on the pipe.
All in I am estimating this mod will be $3000 but I may sell the ThunderAce and FZR1000 stuff or use it on a Kawasaki Triple... so there is a value back there..
I considered buying an Aprilla Futura after riding my buddy's and realized two things; the Futura would be at least $6k an the FJ will not sell for more than $3500-4000 even though my bike is pristine and loaded with touring accessories...
The only thing I did not like about the FJ was the handling so I decided to go for it- plus I am enjoying the process. Hopefully this wont take me all winter!
Cheers,
tim
Tim, you will be surprised how much the handling is going to be improved.
like a brand new modern motorcycle with all the lustful character of the FJ engine.
keep us updated on your progress!
KOokaloo!
Into the mod faq (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1887.0) you go...
Good info, actually looks pretty good on there too.
Tim, thumbs up :good2:
we all know the mods we do to the fj are expensive and time consuming and we will never get the money back if we ever sell.
however it is like a drug to personalize your fj and the pride of doing it yourself is priceless.
definitive bragging rights around the campfire will be your reward. :drinks:
Work got in the way and I had to wait it out....
Meanwhile, back at the outhouse... my machinist friend pressed apart the 2007 R1 triple clamps and the spare set of FJ triples I acquired to destroy if need be. The immediate facts gleaned are:
1- the lower triple clamp from the R1 is considerably thicker than the stock FJ unit. To resolve this, the FJ spindle will get cleaned up on the bottom end and an extension will be press fitted to give us the length needed to compensate for the super thick R1 lower triple.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4370/36811627422_5e75ed6114_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4441/36983039255_e373558266_o.jpg)
2- the R1 spindle diameter is a good mm or so thicker- the FJ spindle is not the "kind of tight" fit as reported on other conversions. This simply does not fit. So, if needed, we will follow the Marc Rittner route and build up material to be turned back to proper size for a .0025 press fit. It is possible that the new extension will be sized in advance and no build up of material will be required- TBD. Regardless, the press fit extension will be welded in place and those welds will have to be cleaned up.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4357/36585947220_59db27fb37_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4341/36811627462_9e1615ec60_o.jpg)
3- the top triple requires a shouldered collar to fit the FJ spindle. This was the first thing my machinist buddy turned out. Once the R1 top triple top is seated on the new collar (and the FJ spindle) we were able to start angling to determine how big the extension needed to be. Still not confirmed.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/36811627372_16a1e99e82_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4423/36983039175_3b69ca12f7_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4406/36811627552_a2637381e9_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4351/36983039425_569c889b06_o.jpg)
There are several more things to modify to get the triples converted completely. The remaining challenges with the front are:
- Figure out the ignition mounting
- Figure out the steering stops
- Figure out a speedo replacement
- Figure out handle bar set up
- Figure out fork extensions so that the geometry can be adjusted to with in stock spec
- Figure out a new clutch master cylinder that resembles the R1 levers.
The Rear End:
We had trimmed the swingarm and the internal spacer of the R1 and press fit some bushings into the ends of the spacer so that the FJ swinger bolt fit it properly. I had to wait for some new sealing end caps for the R1 swingarm because these parts were not included when I found the R1 stuff. Once the trimming was done these spacers barely had room to go on without hitting the shoulder of the swingarm- but once mounted the entire assembly is snug and has good motion. I had hoped to use the washers that come inside the FJ end caps because they are the right size to mount around the FJ swingarm axle- but the trimming we did was not enough to include these. On a second pass we would trim a bit more to allow these washers to go into the R1 end caps. Shown; the two R1 end-caps (each with different diameter and thickness) and the spacer used to trim the swingarm and then the mounted arm- you can see the bigger end cap there. The fit was not perfect for the seals but I concluded that they would find a new way to sit. The seal is not critical if you stay out of deep water!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4433/36585947090_3e120dc91f_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4435/36585946490_5802aff105_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4377/36811627092_e01ba58722_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4342/36983039035_2d84abb61f_o.jpg)
The length of the shock is too long to let the stock linkage connect properly. The length is not the problem the problem is the linkage is not designed to couple to the stock FJ locations. The shape of the R1 shock and the piggyback res was in slight conflict with the FJ top mount. I removed the entire ABS system to make room for the shock with piggyback res. It had to go anyway as the R1 wheels were not going to accept the ABS gear. Then to make the shock clear, I used my grinder to shape the R1 shock a bit. With minor removal of material the top mount goes right on. I will make a spacer to take up the 10mm offset in the mount.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4369/36811627332_f8e0d1c02e_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/36585946780_77e0bdcf70_o.jpg)
To my amazement, the shock will nearly bolt right in as far as the alignment goes. The R1 swingarm is offset to the chain side of the bike to accommodate the exhaust system coming up through the notch out in the arm. So overall the R1 suspension is more offset to the chain side than the FJ is. The R1 shock has a top clevis that I removed. The collar in the top eye mount is 30mm wide compared to the FJ shock with a 40mm collar insert. This difference allows the R1 shock to shift 10mm over in the FJ top mount to near perfect alignment with the R1 offset. I have a bit further to go on this but it is very close and likely will require only some minor adjustment to the lower R1 triangle mount.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4367/36811627192_7b2a41f396_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4425/36811627282_0972eaf636_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4438/36585946870_918de676c4_o.jpg)
It was a good day. The bike started like this:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4359/36811627222_634c13126e_o.jpg)
And ended like this:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4413/36811627532_53403abd37_o.jpg)
Tomorrow the rest of the exhaust system will come off and I will work on the shock linkage- trying to find a way to tie it all in.
Tim
Tim, For the upper tree use the G2 (06 or newer) with the spacer you made it will be a direct bolt on. I used the same combo when I put inverted forks on my G1 FZ1. It will save a bunch of hassle down the road. As for the lower tree with the FZ we had to remove about 6MM off the steering head stops 1 to get the turning radius back to stock and 2 so you can lock the steering column.
Kim
Well done that man.
Your posts are so cool, well written,educational & entertaining
Please keep 'em coming and hopefully you'll have the bike buttoned up in time for the NorCal Rally so we can all drool over it...
I'm already drooling!!
definitely nice work.
I'm curious as to how your shock linkage turns out (having been thru the shock linkage grinder myself)
KOokaloo!
Frank
Kim- are you referring to a FZ1 triple top from 2006 or newer (they were USD forks from 06 on I think)? What was the main benefit from using it? I see it has the handle bar set up out of the way right off.... the ignition is located at center too this must help with the steering lock?
Thanks a bunch Klavdy- trying to keep it short in words and long in pictures! It would be great to have it ready for the rally- we'll see!
Frank- the alignment left to right is within a mm or so and should not be a problem. The linkage however is going to be the trick. I can get the stuff connected but I am not sure what the leveraging effect will be etc. The dogbone should lay nearly horizontal when mounted but the connection on the FJ frame is too high. Having a full adjustable dogbone will handle part of the problem. If I could get a Penske Shock that is only 10.5 or 11 inches from center to center (shorter than stock) this will greatly improve the angle that the dogbone connects at. If I cannot get the 07 linkage to work- the 08 and newer bikes reversed the linking placing the triangle connector against the frame and the dogbone reaches to connect the swingarm. The 07 hardware has the triangle connected to the arm and dogbone linking to the frame.... All else being the same switching to the newer design linkage may solve it.
Man it felt good to get all the ABS junk off my bike! I have the computer and the pump in a box and it is not light!
tim
Quote from: axiom-r on February 13, 2011, 10:11:33 AM
Kim- are you referring to a FZ1 triple top from 2006 or newer (they were USD forks from 06 on I think)? What was the main benefit from using it? I see it has the handle bar set up out of the way right off.... the ignition is located at center too this must help with the steering lock?
Yes G2 FZ1,The main advantage is a bolt on (with the spacer you have all ready made) so no welding and drilling of the R1 unit. The FZ1 is all ready set up for handle bar mounts (rubber mounted so even less vibration) and yes for the steering lock it's dam near a bolt in. Now if you are thinking about clipons stay with the R1 upper.
I had assumed I would have to go with top mount bars like the FZ1... Is the FZ1 top clamp for a 50mm USD fork- same diameter as R1?
If so.... MORE PARTS!
Yes it's a bolt on they all have 50mm fork holes
I am starting to get pretty excited!! There are more problems to resolve to be sure but a few of what I anticipated would be the toughest adaptions are complete. The shock linkage was at first looking to be some real rocket science but amazingly it is nearly bolting right in!! I turned the stock R1 Triangle connection upside down so that the short side connects to the shock and the longer side connects to the dogbone- I'll be damned if that wasn't very close to perfect dimensions! Now, this is a progressive rate linkage and I have no idea what I did to the rate (increased it or decreased it) so determining a spring rate will be a crap shoot- I may have to buy more than one spring to get it right.
The triple clamps were modified as previously described (I will post all the details on this later). So with the triple clamps back in my hand I went ahead with the fist mock up- that R1 front end looks right at home on the FJ. All the clearances are good with exception of the steering stops- they miss the frame lug all together.
I am super stoked with the results so far and pleasantly surprised at how easily this is happening.... So far my machinist friend says that I have not presented any significant challenges. I have paid him a total of $400 for the swingarm and triple clamp mods.... still need to do the fork caps, steering stops and chain carrier.
More to come! :yahoo:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4341/36585948240_2cef5d92c6_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4442/36983039585_8730e0590c_o.jpg)
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have you moved the swingarm thru its stroke without the spring to see what its going to do ?
that lower shock collar looks awful close to the lever connecting to the frame off the triangle.
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on March 03, 2011, 03:29:16 PM
have you moved the swingarm thru its stroke without the spring to see what its going to do ?
that lower shock collar looks awful close to the lever connecting to the frame off the triangle.
KOokaloo!
I was quite concerned about this very issue until I looked closely at the angle and positioning of the links on the R1. While searching for adjustable dogbones I spotted this: Stock R1- I don't think that gap closes up when the rear suspension compresses?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4384/36800223706_bc633abef3_o.jpg)
I have not yet moved the swingarm through its full motion yet but I believe my set up is reasonable when compared to the positioning of the stock R1 linkage. The rear part of the triangle gets pretty close to the swingarm mounting area too. There could be conflict (TBD) but I think there is a good chance it will function just fine. The problem of determining the proper spring rate remains however. The R1 rate is about 500lbs/in. the FJ would require closer to 900lbs/in. With the full R1 linkage on there (slightly modified positioning) the required rate is unknown. I think it will be closer to 500 though.
tim
........ That really looks good !!
having dealt with making a new rear suspension linkage from scratch i can say a very small difference in pickup points can have a dramtic effect on the spring rate required and whether or not the linkage action actually remains progressive.
it took quite a bit of trial and error (and revalves of my penske) in order to sort out the rear suspension characteristics on my FJ.
might just be the pictures but it looks like the shock is more vertical on the actual R1 ?..... i would definitely remove that shock spring and work the entire assembly thru its stroke before i tried riding it.
pushing down on the rear end should give you some kind of idea if you are in the ball park....
looks good though.... being a pioneer is never easy but it can be very satisfying :good2:
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on March 03, 2011, 06:34:21 PMmight just be the pictures but it looks like the shock is more vertical on the actual R1 ?.....
You are correct about that. It would be better if the top of the shock were and inch or so rear-ward of the stock FJ position. I thought about adding a block of billet aluminum cut into a custom mounting spacer between the existing mount and a point an inch or so to the back. The spacer approach would weaken the top mount I believe. I gave up on the idea because I did not want to risk any leveraging/stressing of the stock mount AND the entire system CAN bolt together as is, so..... What do you think? If the top of the shock came back a bit the body of the shock would be better centered through the swing arm and the linkage would be even closer to the stock R1 position. It would also require a shorter shock that is only 11 or 11.5 inches long to fit. I was planning on ordering my Penske at 11.75 inches (stock R1 is 12") and using the ride height adjustment and an adjustable dogbone to variably find the sweet spot. I think I will avoid using any kind of top mount adapter unless its required or there is some tangible advantage.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/36585946780_77e0bdcf70_o.jpg)
Excellent work!
Tony Foale (tonyfoale.com) makes some suspension analysis software at a reasonable price that would be a huge help in the design of your rear suspension. With a little work, you could probably design a new set of "triangles" for your linkage that would give the exact amount of progression you want and get you in the ball park with your spring rates. I used an earlier version when adapting an FZR1000 linkage and shock to my 89.
Chris
what does it look like with the triangle rotated back to it's original position ?
even with software at some point you are gonna have to ride it to find out.... pull that spring and check for binding before you do :good2:
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on March 03, 2011, 10:30:07 PMwhat does it look like with the triangle rotated back to it's original position ?
even with software at some point you are gonna have to ride it to find out.... pull that spring and check for binding before you do :good2:
KOokaloo!
In the normal position the frame mounting point is too high and the linkage binds on the bottom of the shock. The solution would be a properly designed triangle that maintains the proportions (and therefore the progressive rate) but allows the pieces to clear. This would require the shock length to be in the 10.75" to 11" range. I did buy the triangle for the 09 R1 (for $14) which should be here soon. It is smaller and will present another opportunity for fitting and testing.
I promise that the wheels won't turn until the back end has a full range of motion and I am confident that the suspension is safe.
Some parts have arrived and I am trying to stay cool and be patient as the finishing line is still a ways off! That said.....
Here are most of the rear suspension parts I have been working with. I am waiting on a spring compression tool so that I can disassemble the rear shock and run the swingarm through its range of motion. You can see the three different stock Yamaha R1 linkage triangles I have been experimenting with. The inverted 07 part is a direct bolt up but we still don't know how to select a spring for this new arrangement. Is the linkage more or less progressive in its new position? Once I can make an educated guess at spring rate and we decide on a shock body length I will order a new Penske.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4436/36983039845_6794b0d869_z.jpg)
This is the Soupy's Custom Lowering Link shown next to the stock R1 unit. It adjusts from 6" to 7.5" (stock R1 length is 7.5" center to center) I asked Mike at Soupy's to make me a 56mm wide bushing that offsets the frame mount end all the way to the chain side. The link arrived with both ends offset all the way to the side and I had to wait for the stock bushings to correct this on the swingarm side. The stock bushings are in and the offset one sitting next to the link. Total cost from Soupy was $141 shipped and with custom bushings.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4386/36811628152_d102a56652_z.jpg)
Here is Soupy's link next to the stock FJ linkage- you can see the width that needs to be achieved.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4370/36585948670_5bc570eca1_z.jpg)
Here's the Soupy's Link held in place at the frame. This large mounting gap allows so much room for adjusting that nearly all of the offset problem related to the linkage is taken care of right there. I will have the swingarm modified slightly- opening the triangle mount area about 1mm to guarantee that there is no binding. After that its all about finding the right spring and valving.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4413/36983039945_ba99a4bbee_z.jpg)
**** EDIT **** PLEASE NOTE THAT THE SOUPY'S ADJUSTABLE LENGTH DOGBONE FAILED CATASTROPHICALLY - SEE PAGE 8 OF THIS THREAD
I am going to start taking apart more of the rear end so that I can begin installing the new exhaust system. I had the Delkevic Collector Box is SS already and the Delkavic Mufflers that I wanted so I went ahead and bought the SS Down tubes and 4 into 1 connector pipe from SandyBikeSpares UK ebay. The 4 into 1 is for XJR1200 but I read that another member here mounted it fairly easily on the FJ so.... Not sure which way I'll go yet two mufflers or one.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4381/36585948950_4707c7fea8_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4395/36983040095_526bf4c18f_z.jpg)
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/36585948820_d155a1e6a4_z.jpg)
Wonderful work! And that exhaust looks pretty cool! A 4-into-1 with the stock (or similar) header pipes. Would love to hear how it sounds when you are done. Get this stuff going! This has got to be one of the best times for rides in your area (not that there is ever really a bad time :good: ) Of course, don't rush. From the looks of the project, you've got the "detail oriented" view that'll make this pretty awesome when finished!
Greg
your making me jealous :yahoo:.. keep up the good work :good2:
Gosh, and mine's just getting a fork brace sometime this year.
Watching this build is more engrossing than Coronation street.
:blush: well in my defense it was either buy a new bike (a used Aprilia Futura) and sell the FJ or modify the FJ.... I went the modify route. Hopefully it turns out as envisioned.
I will get some pictures of my FJ R1 swingarm in late April. I live a few hours away from it right now and won't be home til then. But i will say i went thru the same process you did with the rear linkage geometry angles. i spent a lot of time looking at angles and which way the linkage needed to be to create the right leverage on the rear swingarm, instead of the rear shock. I was home a few weeks ago and tried what you had done with the upper shock mount. it was too much leverage and the rear end bottomed out fast with a lot of bounce. i know you said you didn't want a upper shock mount extension, but thats what i have and it has fixed the leverage issue. i will post as soon as i can. in the mean time keep it up, the bike looks great
Well it's been a long time since I updated this thread on the progress of my mods..... I honestly thought I would be riding to the WCR last weekend but as can be expected, things come up!
There are many issues to deal with when applying 2007 R1 suspension to a FJ1200 but some of these I just did not anticipate... without this guy in my corner I would have been screwed! "Buzz" has turned out several spacers and other fitment parts and has also completed the snips, cuts and drilling as needed. Without his help, I would be running stock- so I am very grateful to have access to this guy!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4419/36585942560_578cbf74ca_z.jpg)
One of the toughest challenges was determining how to get the chain alignment done. The R1 parts arrange the chain quite close to the swingarm and the tire in stock form so trimming the cush-drive down or even flipping the sprocket around to recess the other way was not my first choice. I bought a 1/4" offset sprocket and intended to use it as a "first try" and see where it left me- turns out 1/4" offset is very close to the total offset needed. The process was complicated slightly when the PBI offset sprocket was not as thick as the stock FJ unit at the mounting splines. I asked Buzz to make me a spacer of about .238mm to ride behind the sprocket. What you see below is the final set up. I will ride the bike for a few hundred miles and then check to see how the sprocket is wearing- if it appears to wear on one side I know I need to either take another stab at an offset or grind down the CS sprocket slightly on the appropriate side.... That said, the wheel turns free and the chain does not hang up or make excessive noise!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4418/36585942770_1f7c5f8dfe_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4338/36795107386_184da70c64_z.jpg)
You can see the chain is quite close to the frame rail and the tire.... but that is an R1 6" wheel on an FJ!!!
I celebrated for a moment and then realized the sprocket cover was not going to go on.... :negative:
I soon after discovered why Randy at RPM is such a coveted asset to the FJ community. He informed me that the XJR's had a cover that accommodated 8mm more space around the sprocket and (count me as lucky) he had not only a new cover but the entire kit to mount it up including the longer clutch push rod and the 8mm longer shifting shaft:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4366/36811625442_562d2c8384_z.jpg)
Of course the XRJ cover is not a direct fit- as Pat had pointed out. It must be shaved down at the upper right corner to easily go on and off the motor whilst in the frame.... hence the grinder came out and i did some trimming. I may cut off the lower left corner lobe too if I have any trouble mounting it. On the up side it fit easily over my offset sprocket allowing me to keep a mostly stock appearance and still achieve the offset for the big rim!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4430/36585942830_82429181c8_z.jpg)
I had made some great progress with the swingarm and suspension linkage and had gotten to the point where I was (I thought anyway) ready to order a shock. I collected all the data and measurements I needed so that I could be sure I was getting the right shock - they are expensive and I did not want to have to buy two or modify a brand new one because of a bad measurement etc... Well here is the catch.
Apparently there are narrow body shocks and standard shocks. Narrow bodied units are 45mm in diameter on the housing body and standard shocks are 55mm in diameter. The stock R1 unit is a narrow body shock and has a spring of only 531lbs/in. You can easily mount a 1000lb or heavier spring on it but the springs get wider as they get heavier... I did not anticipate this! Penske's are typically the 55mm body and with a properly weighted spring for the FJ that shock will not go through the cavity in the R1 swingarm......it was designed for a smaller unit. I thought for awhile that I was going to have to cut the swinger or give up.....
Traxxion Dynamics is freaking awesome but even they did not know that Penske makes many of the same motorcycle shocks (8987 unit) in the narrow body for Indy and other cars....!!!!! I was saved!!!
I am ordering the narrow body 8987 triple adjustable shock with an 1100 lbs/in spring and special bushings for the top mount. The coolest thing about the process though was the customer service. Since the unit is custom Penske shipped me the uncharged shock with no spring so that I could test fit it before final build. The shock is 11" long with a ride height adjust of .5" so I can adjust it between 11" and 11.5". This range is perfect for the linkage. They also told me that since the R1 shock mounts nearly vertical on the R1 and on the FJ it is leaning forward 10-15 degrees I should bump up the rate to a address that. Even better- they will send the shock to me with a few springs between 1000 and 1200 lbs/in so that I can determine which is best and return the others!!!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4382/36795107886_16f3d44e76_z.jpg)
Here is the special bushing: the mount is 40mm wide n the frame so the center line of the shock is 12.5mm from the left (chain side) of the bike and 27.5mm from the right side. This places the shock properly in that 40mm gap to align with the triangle linkage on the R1 swingarm.... I get tingles looking at it! :good2:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4432/36811625482_01de92b2c5_z.jpg)
The only downside to the narrow body shock so far is that they cannot do a horizontally mounted reservoir. The vertical mounted unit (as shown) wil not work as the swingarm will contact it on full compression. So the unit will have to be the remote res style which I don't like as much but it does save a few hundred on the cost. Traxxion Dynamics does make a "clip" that allows remote res attachment to the shock so I'm hopeful that the clip will work on a narrow 45mm body- we shall see...
So that's the update. I still have to figure out the steering stops, longer throttle cable, all new brake and clutch lines, some wiring at the bars, a digital speedo and.... I am sure a few other hurdles...... But I can definitely see light at the end of the tunnel!
Thanks to all that have assisted me!!
Cheers- tim
Tim,
That is another work of art. Really, I always have appreciated machined metal as art. That front end is really nice. Can't wait to hear how she rides. But I think I already know. :crazy:
CraigO
Tim.....magnificent job mate!
I wish you luck on your hunt for a digital speedo.
I wanted to replace just the speedo in the OEM gauge cluster and hunted for 5 or 6 months to find something that would work - to no avail.
I eventually bit the bullet and went with an Acwell digital dash alla Frank Moore.
Just as an aside, I found a company that could sell me a digital to analogue converter so that I could retain the OEM speedo. The down side - over US$350.
Harvy
Quote from: craigo on June 13, 2011, 09:00:57 PM
Tim,
That is another work of art. Really, I always have appreciated machined metal as art. That front end is really nice. Can't wait to hear how she rides. But I think I already know. :crazy:
CraigO
Thanks CraigO! I too am curious to see how it rides! With the swingarm in final position, gearing selected (18/39) and chain cut- the new wheelbase is 2.5" long from stock. Of course the first thought is for increased stability, then next for reduced turn in agility... No telling how this little experiment is going to turn out until it is ridden!
Keep your fingers crossed for me I am pretty well out on the limb!
tim
Quote from: Harvy on June 13, 2011, 09:59:51 PM
Tim.....magnificent job mate!
I wish you luck on your hunt for a digital speedo.
I wanted to replace just the speedo in the OEM gauge cluster and hunted for 5 or 6 months to find something that would work - to no avail.
I eventually bit the bullet and went with an Acwell digital dash alla Frank Moore.
Just as an aside, I found a company that could sell me a digital to analogue converter so that I could retain the OEM speedo. The down side - over US$350.
Harvy
Thanks very much Harvey!
I have been rereading the threads where the Acewell is discussed and or shown- I am not sure what I am going to do yet. I think you might be talking about the Cable X box. I spoke to them at one point and seriously thought about it. They need a cable to copy and they can integrate the right connectors for the FJ and calibrate it too. My issue beyond price is that the box is 6x4x2 and then a cable protrusion. I could perhaps fit this in the tail where my ABS brain used to be... but it would be tough to get that box into the nose of the bike. Upside, your stock speedo works as does your odometer.... I may make a dummy box and look at the options. I also thought about just getting a very small digital speedo and stick it to the gauge face and call it a day.
I may come around pestering you for more info when I get to that point-
Cheers!
tim
Yes Tim....that Cable X was the one I was looking at too.
I couldn't justify the expense.......especially as the Acwell was in the region of Aus$240 and gives more functionality than the OEM dash (dual trip meters, over rev light, time in the saddle etc).
The only other option was a 3.5" speedo only gauge, but none that I could find was shallow enough to actually replace the OEM speedo inside the cluster - they were all too deep (strange really - when you consider its just PCB with no mechanical parts).
Harvy
looking good...... :good2:
KOokaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on June 13, 2011, 11:46:50 PM
looking good...... :good2:
KOokaloo!
Thanks Frank! I am giving it my all!
I realized that I had not show the progress made on my triple clamps and bars. Here are a couple of shots of my set up. I wanted a black top clamp and one pre-cast with the holes for rubber mounting the bar holders etc. I had the original R1 clamp on there but I was not happy with the thin material especially if I was going to have to drill holes for the bar clamps and not have rubber dampers etc.
I was looking for a solution about the time the new FZ8 came out.... I ordered these 2011 parts and was told they would have to come direct from Japan as no dealers had parts stock for the FZ8 yet. Unfortunately the earthquake and tsunami came and I had to wait it out for these parts to arrive....
I am really happy with these as they look as if they were made for the FJ and one of my goals in this conversion is to try to make the bike look OEM. I picked up the clamp, the bar holders and rubber bits and the bars- all 2011 FZ8. What do you guys think?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4381/36811625542_41301cf5a5_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4381/36585943050_ea2b5833c5_z.jpg)
This set moved the key back to center- only minor hassles getting the ignition mounted up and allows the steering lock to work as is.... You can see the Cycle One Off fork extenders below the triple clamp. These added 2" to put the total fork length back to stock and they have some room below the clamp so if needed I can reduce the total length a bit by dropping the clamps down the forks...
Best part- this cost about half of the cost of an Gen II FZ1 set which was the other suggested path...
tim
WOW.
Out of the garage for the first time in about 8 months..... She is back on her feet!!! :good: Hoping its a rider in the next few weeks. Few more challenges to go....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4403/36174093013_418ee63f7c_b.jpg)[/url]
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4348/36174093213_0d621999d5_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/36811625712_1c6a230f41_b.jpg)
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4438/36811625622_fc61f85d09_b.jpg)
And off to get some custom brake lines made up!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4379/36174093333_50f75baa05_b.jpg)[/url]
Very nice.
Mind telling us the cost of the new triple and bar mounts and fork extenders?
Cheers,
Arnie
how does the rear suspension feel when doing the push test ? is it real easy to push down? hard to push down?
that rear end looks really good!
KOokaloo!
Quote from: Arnie on July 09, 2011, 09:29:45 PM
Very nice.
Mind telling us the cost of the new triple and bar mounts and fork extenders?
Cheers,
Arnie
Hi Arnie- the Cycle One Off extenders were $141 to my door. I am happy with them. I used a bit of gaff tape on the fork tops before twisting the extenders over them- this was minor protection for the fork but was just the right thickness to make them sit very snug on the forks. The FZ8 triple clamp, bars, holders and hardware was about $280 all in. I thought it was a great deal because I was looking at the Gen II FZ1 triple in silver and that was going to be in the $480 range. So I got black parts (which I wanted) and "saved" some money too!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on July 09, 2011, 10:10:40 PM
how does the rear suspension feel when doing the push test ? is it real easy to push down? hard to push down?
that rear end looks really good!
KOokaloo!
Frank the new Penske shock is done but not yet in my hands....the 531lb rate stock R1 shock is on there so I could move the bike and get the brake lines made up... It is soft to say the least. It sags about 3 inches when on its wheels. The Penske is being delivered with an 1100lb spring and I can exchange it until we find the right rate. Hopefully 1100 is close.
Gotta admit I was pretty giggly today looking at it in the light of day... Also realizing that I got super lucky on this project in several ways. Although there are some sacrifices being made too- I still need a speedo solution and have been thinking about mounting the Cable X box where my ABS computer used to live in the tail. Also, as you can see in the shots the center stand is not too happy. I have talked myself into the idea that with John Cain's stand extender I won't miss it too much. I will carry it with me when touring in the luggage and be able to "pin it on" when I stop.... It is possible that it can be modified to work but I am not putting that job on my list of things to do until I ride the bike for awhile..
Cheers! :drinks:
tim
Quote from: axiom-r on July 09, 2011, 11:50:21 PM
Cable X-box.....
Cheers! :drinks:
tim
Tim, if you go this route, please keep us informed. I was toying with that idea myself. I broke out the tape measure just now....... the standard speedo cable is too short to reach to the tail section. My idea was to put it where the air-box used to be, and not have to go to the expense of a purpose made speedo cable. The X-box from memory is around US$250-260?........ I ended up going with Franks method with the Acewell digital dashboard for a few dollars cheaper.
Bike is looking super mate.
Cheers
Harvy.
I am still thinking about the Acewell too Harvy. I did speak to the Cable X guys and was told that I could send in my original speedo cable so that they could match or transfer over the connectors on a new cable of up to 10ft. This is an aftermarket component for cars so I think a longer speedo cable is fair game to ask for. They also indicated that if needed they could calibrate the unit to my speedo which I think would be a good idea. If I go that route I will send them my speedo and cable and a desired length for the new cable.... The Acewell though.....
:unknown:
One thing at a time- I am going to focus on suspension and brakes for now!
tim
The Penske shock has arrived! We went through a few different shock types before finding this solution.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4420/36811625822_77b7714ea0_b.jpg)
I worked with Cole at Penske in Maryland and he describes it as: "The shock is our 8987 Motorcycle shock, the only piece not standard is the one piece body which came from early Indy Car Shocks".
There is not the typical separate top mount that gets attached to the body. We were unable to achieve the full stroke needed and keep the ride height adjustment using the normal shocks. By using the "uni-body" from Indy cars we got the full stroke and kept the half inch of ride height adjustment. The shock is 11.25" from center to center with the ride height fully closed.
The other issue was the reservoir mounting. At first we tried a vertical piggyback mount shock but the res contacted the swingarm on full compression so a "no go" there. Traxxion Dynamics makes this "clip" that allows a remote res to be mounted like a piggyback. It is designed for the bigger shock bodies though. I wanted to use it because I wanted a piggyback mounting so I asked my machinist buddy to turn out some shims- you can see them between the collar and the shock body..
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4355/36174093653_66b99ebf25_b.jpg)[/url]
Finally got the shock mounted and it seems really good- test rides here I come!
So the shock is a 8987 triple adjustable, narrow "uni-body" from Indy car, with an 1100 lb/in spring. The res is mounted with the Piggy Back Clip from Traxxion with custom shims for the narrow body adaptation. Penske made the mount spacers for me; the Top is 40mm wide with the center line at 12.5mm from the left side (chain side) and 27.5mm from the right. The bottom is stock 2007 R1 bushings- centered. Total cost on the shock was $1206 to my door. $100 for the Traxxion Clip and $50 for the custom shims. Grand Total $1356.00.
The res was mounted the wrong way around on the first pics and corrected to mount. Initial feel is good- about an eighth inch static sag and firm.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4379/36174093993_90998e8135_b.jpg)
Went ahead and got the exhaust system on there too!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/36174093873_6ab65254c4_b.jpg)
Brake lines will be made and installed today so the next stop is...... FINISHED!!! TEST AND TUNE!!!
Cheers- tim
that is looking awesome . gotta feel good you are almost done! :good2:
that is a sweet shock setup..... nothing like pioneering a mod!
well done.... can't wait to hear a ride report.
KOokaloo!
Frank
That FJ is one sweet ride. :good2: 2 thumbs up!!!
I really love the front end on that, and the R1 rear is just art to behold. You guys that can do this kind of work really impress me to no end.
Excellent!!!!
CraigO
Saturday was my first ride! I am going to call the mod "finished" even though I still have to work out adapting my Throttlemeister's to the FZ8 bars and get myself a speedo either digital or Cable X conversion.....
I am SUPER HAPPY!! My good friend races a TZ250 and has the Aprilla Futura so he came over to help me adjust the suspension. The front fork from the R1 went unchanged- same springs etc, just adjusted the preload, compression and rebound dampening. Huge improvement! The rear sagged a little too much but we were unable to add preload on the 1100 lb spring with the adjustment bar provided by Penske (it bent). I will need to get some tool grade steel bar to make a piece long and strong enough to adjust preload more easily and without bending. So the Rear end was vastly improved but we think there is a better setting in the future with better tools.
I rode about 125 miles yesterday- grinning the whole time!! The bike feels so much faster with the weight reduction! Handling and confidence is VASTLY improved!!! :biggrin:
We did have one ghost in the machine that was a bugger and took some time to figure out. We got all ready and rode away from the house. Within about 2 miles the front brakes bound up and I had to stop as they were not releasing. Pulled over and after a few minutes they released and rode back to the garage. We bled the entire system and started out again. Same problem- return to garage. This time we loosened the calipers and tried manually returning the pistons after the brakes were pumped up and they would not move..... the brakes worked great but they built pressure and locked. The fluid could not return. So the M/C had to come off and get opened up - we assumed the return orifice in the MC was blocked up. Once opened we found the unit to be totally clean and proper...WTF???
Finally asked: what has been changed??? The brake lever was a cheap $20 unit off ebay that I bought because it was black and made the levers a matching set. Well the cheap lever was not built quite right and moved the MC piston back slightly when it was mounted. This placed the seal of the piston directly over the fluid return orifice and prevented the brakes from releasing. We switched back to the stock R1 brake lever and the problem was solved.... Always gotta be something I guess! I will say that although the handling improvement is huge the biggest improvement is far and away the R1 brakes. Single finger braking is plenty powerful. So much more braking power that it really is going to take some time for me to acclimate... I can go much deeper into corners now.
Today (Sunday) is the MOTO GP at Laguna Seca so I will be riding the FJR1 up HWY 1 into Monterey with a zillion other riders!!!
The mod took me a little more that 8 months and is by far the biggest and most complex work I have ever done on a bike..... The FJ is "new" to me again and with all of my complaints about it's handling eliminated! I want to say thanks one more time to everyone here that encouraged me, provided info and gave me the confidence to go for it! THANKS GUYS!
My Kookaloo this weekend is off the charts!!!!
Here are the final results at the end of the line!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4411/36585944690_d6c9237879_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4426/36174094183_760cc1c7ba_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4352/36795109696_97611cea81_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4360/36174094363_80edd18044_b.jpg)
Evil black $20 POS Brake Lever:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4402/36811626232_46e148010a_b.jpg)
The First Ride:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4402/36585945200_3cd30bdd53_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4352/36585945820_1084acd5cf_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4353/36811626562_84ec52243a_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4344/36811626382_6a346c45d4_b.jpg)
Dude - that's a REALLY NICE job on the suspension. WOW. :good2:
I wish I had the money to do it to mine. I'm spending all my money just trying to keep my oil and brake fluid in my bike!
totally awesome job :good2:
you are gonna make me push that line in the sand of no more mods. :dash1:
Have to agree thats a sexy looking engine bike there... nice work!!! :good2: :good2: :hi:
Quote from: axiom-r on July 24, 2011, 10:57:57 AM
......The rear sagged a little too much but we were unable to add preload on the 1100 lb spring with the adjustment bar provided by Penske (it bent). I will need to get some tool grade steel bar to make a piece long and strong enough to adjust preload more easily and without bending. So the Rear end was vastly improved but we think there is a better setting in the future with better tools.
Traxxion makes a nice Torrington Bearing kit which really helps Penske preload adjustment: http://www.traxxion.com/ShockSpringTorringtonBearingKit.aspx (http://www.traxxion.com/ShockSpringTorringtonBearingKit.aspx)
Enjoy your bike! You have worked hard and you deserve it! Major Kudos to you!! Pat
Thanks Lotsokids, Mark & NJona86FJ! It is 7:33PM and I just came in from the garage. I did about 200 miles today up and down the coast. I am in love with my FJ again like I was in 1987 when I got the red and white 86 FJ and rode one for the first time.....
Pat- thanks so much for the kudos. I was already thinking about the bearing kit. I hope it is available in the narrower diameter I need it in for my weird Penske.
Cheers-
tim
That is one sweet conversion! Excellent work!
I hope you took detailed notes and will provide a write up for future modders.
I talked to a guy the other day that was putting an R1 front end on an '85 FJ and he claimed all that was needed was to press the FJ steering stem into the R1 lower triple. I should probably re-read this post, but I'm lazy so I'll just ask. It that what you did?
DavidR.
I tried to fit it like that David but the FJ stem was much too narrow for the 2007 R1 lower triple. However it was also too short because the R1 clamp is so much thicker- so we cleaned up the bottom of the FJ stem, press fitted an extension into it then welded it in place. The extension we welded on was the correct OD to press fit into the R1 lower triple as they normally do. The top triple gets a custom "hat" spacer so that it fits the skinny FJ stem too... I later went with an FZ8 top triple clamp instead of the R1 because I thought it looked better and it presented a rubber mount set up for the handlebar holders...
It is all in this post- with pics!
tim
Quote from: axiom-r on July 24, 2011, 09:40:52 PM
It is 7:33PM and I just came in from the garage.
Do you find it harder to "come in from the garage" these days? A couple last glances before closing the garage door? That's what I would do, anyway. :biggrin:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 24, 2011, 05:18:53 PM
Enjoy your bike! You have worked hard and you deserve it! Major Kudos to you!!
Exactly.
Im interested to hear the exhaust. can you put a sound clip or video up of the sound?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110716955148?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110716955148?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
Digital Dash !
:good: That looks really cool, I will be interested to see how it works. :good:
Quote from: Grey runner on September 01, 2011, 12:21:31 PM
:good: That looks really cool, I will be interested to see how it works. :good:
The bike has been fantastic... to say I am newly in love with it again would be an understatement.... I did a full day's ride on HWY 33 into Ojai, CA recently and the bike performed flawlessly. I am corning much deeper than I used to and my confidence is definitely bolstered - especially by the brakes. With the old wheels, suspension and brakes I had substantial "chicken strips" on the tires.... now (with seemingly no effort in riding style) the strips are less than a 1/4" at the edges of the rubber!
After getting some saddle time I went back to adjust the suspension again and discovered that the shock is topping out with the amount of pre load I desire. So I contacted Penske and they sent me a 1200lb spring. I should note that this will be the second time the shock is coming out- I installed the Torrington Bearing Kit (as Pat had suggested) and now I can actually adjust preload not just bend the skinny bar they send you to do the job- for anyone buying a new shock the bearing kit is a MUST HAVE.
Anyway, compression pre load on the 1100lb spring was kinda high, compression dampening was near the max and I was not riding with touring gear or a passenger so the conclusion is I need more spring. Also, the front end (in stock configuration) feels stiffer than the rear. The hope is bumping up 100lb to 1200 total will allow me to set a lower pre load, and reduce compression dampening to closer to the middle of the adjustment range..... and make the rear end have the same stiffness that the front has.
Quote from: Lotsokids on July 25, 2011, 03:41:00 PMDo you find it harder to "come in from the garage" these days? A couple last glances before closing the garage door? That's what I would do, anyway. :biggrin:
YES!!! I sometimes sit there with a beer at 10:30PM just gawking it the FJ... You know this was my first attempt at a major modification and I think I am still a bit startled that it worked out so well!!
tim
How is that chain alignment? I expect that the R1 swingarm and rear wheel are substantially offset to the left, and would require a countershaft sprocket with a lot of offset just to clear the tire. Have you checked the centering of the wheel with respect to the front wheel? Others have assumed centered in the arm is centered on the bike. That would be a mistake.
Back when I looked at R1 arms mid-2000 decade, the underslung 2004+ versions were new/rare/pricey/un-modded. The earlier type, with reinforcing braces above the arm interfered with the subframe. They can and have worked, but the underslung is much better. I applaud your pioneering effort.
Hi Derby - Thanks for the props! The mods have worked out awesome and the bike rides like a dream. The more miles I log the better it seems to get!
The chain is aligned nicely- you can read through the thread for details but it is a 1/4" offset from PBI Sprockets. The thickness of the sprocket at the mounting splines area was too thin leading me to believe it was actually an R1 sprocket. I had a shim washer made to ride behind the sprocket (from memory 2.33mm thick - check the thread). Had to use an XRJ wider sprocket cover, longer shift shaft & clutch push rod all obtained from Randy at RPM.
I did not get too worked up about alignment of the rear wheel to the front wheel because I used the entire rear end from the R1. All I had to do was make sure that equal amounts were trimmed off the swingarm mount areas and then deal with the offset in linkage. As mounted on the R1, the R1 swingarm was designed to align the rear wheel with the front - as long as I did not attempt to alter the offset by trimming less from one side, the rear wheel would stay on center - so we trimmed equal amounts from the swingarm mount area until the unit fit into the slot - then looked to see if it would clear for its full range of motion. The stock exhaust had to go as did the center stand but those were the only two issues. While we could have made this issue highly complex- I realized that there really was no decent method to measure the alignment (with confident accuracy) so I gave up on trying to calculate the problem and instead focused on not making any change that would move the stock R1 rear wheel offset.
The stock FJ shock is offset to the left too (but not as much as the R1) and uses a very wide 40mm mount for the shock top- I was able to deal with a majority of the shock offset problem by moving the shock all the way left in the wide top mount and using a spacer for the gap at the right side. The other offset compensation area was where the dogbone ties into the frame- a pretty large spacer (40mm or so) was used there too to push the linkage all the way left.
This approach allowed me to ignore alignment issues that would have come up using parts from multiple bikes IE: GSXR wheel into a Thunder-ace or stock swingarm or any other combo etc. I did not have to make any changes to the way the R1 rear wheel mounts in the R1 swingarm... it was all about symmetry in the trimming of the swingarm mount.
Read through the thread and check the pictures on these details- I would encourage anyone with an FJ to consider the R1 stuff..
cheers- tim
I know its older topic.
Please could you give more info how did you extend forks. Thank you.
I had extensions made for my gsxr front end. Mine are a little over engineered a slot with 3 pinch bolts on the part that slides over the top of the forks. Billit bike bits in the uk will make them to your specs. They just use a set screw to hold the top of the forks. Check my pictures
I take my hat off to you sir. Great job. :good2: Did you ever fit the 4 into 1 from sandy? I was in touch with them today and they have none left in stock and said they wont be making any more till the spring. Guess i will have to wait till then so.
Do you foresee any issues fitting it on the fj?
Quote from: pajoXJR on November 19, 2012, 06:15:37 AM
I know its older topic.
Please could you give more info how did you extend forks. Thank you.
If you read through the thread you can find the link to Cycleoneoff - they are made for the V-Max to receive an upside down front end. I actually intend to have some custom ones made with pinch bolts as mentioned by giantkiller in his post- the set screw approach is what I want to change about mine. They should have pinch bolts... but they do work.
Quote from: giantkiller on November 19, 2012, 09:23:34 AM
I had extensions made for my gsxr front end. Mine are a little over engineered a slot with 3 pinch bolts on the part that slides over the top of the forks. Billit bike bits in the uk will make them to your specs. They just use a set screw to hold the top of the forks. Check my pictures
Would love to see the shots of yours giantkiller - are they uploaded? I could not find them.
Quote from: Woodsman on November 20, 2012, 01:56:32 PM
I take my hat off to you sir. Great job. :good2: Did you ever fit the 4 into 1 from sandy? I was in touch with them today and they have none left in stock and said they wont be making any more till the spring. Guess i will have to wait till then so.
Do you foresee any issues fitting it on the fj?
Thank you Woodsman- I have only installed the down tubes from Sandy's so far. The 4 into 1 is still in cardboard- I will likely put it on this spring. I do not expect any problems but I do expect that it will have to be trimmed a bit at the muffler connect.
Cheers- all!
tim
Hey Tim, FYI Derbybrit is none other than the infamous Marc Rittner, who knows a thing or two about modifications....and what it takes to get a 1000cc twin to do 200mph in a standing mile....$$$$
Marc, Tim you two gotta meet....
Good project! :good2:
I have a similar project..
- rear end - R1 2006 + wheel 190 (use offset front sprocket), Shock from R1 + spring Hyperpro 1300lb
-front end - Busa 2006 + handlebar ProTaper
+big oil cooler with fan, temp sensor, wiseco 1314, Barnett, Dyna20000 and many delicious
http://webfile.ru/6631710 (http://webfile.ru/6631710)
http://webfile.ru/6631739 (http://webfile.ru/6631739)
http://webfile.ru/6631740 (http://webfile.ru/6631740)
http://webfile.ru/6631738 (http://webfile.ru/6631738)
http://webfile.ru/6631736 (http://webfile.ru/6631736)
....unable to insert photos...
Quote from: NOX on August 05, 2013, 02:15:20 PM
Good project! :good2:
I have a similar project..
- rear end - R1 2006 + wheel 190 (use offset front sprocket), Shock from R1 + spring Hyperpro 1300lb
-front end - Busa 2006 + handlebar ProTaper
+big oil cooler with fan, temp sensor, wiseco 1314, Barnett, Dyna20000 and many delicious
http://webfile.ru/6631710 (http://webfile.ru/6631710)
http://webfile.ru/6631739 (http://webfile.ru/6631739)
http://webfile.ru/6631740 (http://webfile.ru/6631740)
http://webfile.ru/6631738 (http://webfile.ru/6631738)
http://webfile.ru/6631736 (http://webfile.ru/6631736)
....unable to insert photos...
Great photo's and awesome looking mods. Put a post in the 'Introductions" section and introduce yourself.
Fred
Here you go:
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/FJ/1989%20FJ-R1/89-FJR1_zpsf4ac68ea.jpg~original)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/FJ/1989%20FJ-R1/89-FJR14_zps49919260.jpg~original)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/FJ/1989%20FJ-R1/89-FJR13_zpscebdd322.jpg~original)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/FJ/1989%20FJ-R1/89-FJR12_zps00438e34.jpg~original)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/FJ/1989%20FJ-R1/89-FJR11_zpse4bf3ccb.jpg~original)
Quote
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4381/36585943050_ea2b5833c5_z.jpg)
This set moved the key back to center- only minor hassles getting the ignition mounted up and allows the steering lock to work as is.... You can see the Cycle One Off fork extenders below the triple clamp. These added 2" to put the total fork length back to stock and they have some room below the clamp so if needed I can reduce the total length a bit by dropping the clamps down the forks... Best part- this cost about half of the cost of an Gen II FZ1 set which was the other suggested path...
tim
Hi Tim,
Your project has inspired my winter modding madness; Currently installing 2009 R1 front end with 2009 FZ! top triple and bars. I followed your approach for the triple, using the FJ stem and the R1 lower. What did you figure out for the steering stops?
Thx,
Jeff
Hey Jeff......Tim (axiom-r) has not posted here in awhile (last post was in Jan.)
I suggest you contact him via e- mail, otherwise it might be some time before you get a reply.
Cheers, Pat.
Thanks Pat,
Appreciate the heads up,
Jeff
Quote from: jscgdunn on November 25, 2013, 01:14:25 PM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4381/36585943050_ea2b5833c5_z.jpg)
This set moved the key back to center- only minor hassles getting the ignition mounted up and allows the steering lock to work as is.... You can see the Cycle One Off fork extenders below the triple clamp. These added 2" to put the total fork length back to stock and they have some room below the clamp so if needed I can reduce the total length a bit by dropping the clamps down the forks... Best part- this cost about half of the cost of an Gen II FZ1 set which was the other suggested path...
tim
Fixed it for you.
Hello!!
I have to say I was quite disappointed to miss the WCR this year especially since my work got in the way and then dropped off to almost zero activity in the month of June....
So I went to work while my mind was elsewhere (whipping through wooded curves trying to keep up with the fast guys at the WCR) and realized in short order that I would have to take a substantial ride in June to overcome having missed the rally with all of you.....
The decision was made and work then had to commence in order to properly prep the "FJR1" for a big ride. First and foremost I needed to address my speedometer issue.
Therefore: I am reopening my project thread to include the details of fitting my new Speed Hut GPS Speedo and other preparations for a long haul. If you are interested I will also post a thread with the details of my 3,294 mile ride!
Off we go!
As you may recall, the addition of a complete 2007 Yamaha R1 front and rear end to my 92 FJ1200 resulted in the loss of the mechanical speedo drive on the front wheel. I had looked at many options for a digital replacement and (for me) the stumbling issue was that none of them looked even remotely close to a stock unit. They all pretty much looked foreign on the FJ and that wasn't OK with me because one of my primary goals while modding my bike was to make it look like Yamaha did it.... as if it were a 2007 re-release of the FJ with more sporting bits. That was the look I wanted to achieve.
A few months back some images surfaced on the forum here of a GPS digial unit that looked much more like a stock FJ gauge. I pursued information from Speed Hut and was happy with what I found. www.speedhut.com (http://www.speedhut.com)
Speed Hut offers a large number of variations in the units, including package deals and many options. It took me awhile to find what I thought I wanted and still I did not get it quite right. At first look it seemed like the GPS gauges were very, very expensive. As I delved into it I found they were not too bad: I paid $237 inclusive of an expedited delivery.
I found a single GPS speedo unit and selected options that resulted in a gauge that resembled the stock FJ speedo. Unfortunately, I failed to make some of the better choices on a few options and had to go back (hat in hand) and ask for some corrections - Speed Hut provided excellent customer service. Here is the gauge as I first received it:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4429/36625907020_05ac575622_b.jpg)
Mistake 1: They have remote buttons for controlling the gauge functions but the option for that was not evident to me anywhere on their website - it was not offered up as a choice while custom designing the gauge. I only discovered this when I saw the install directions for the first time and noticed "optional remote switch". When mounting up the unit, the remote button allowed me to preserve and use the odometer button location in the stock FJ gauge cover. I was planning on drilling an access hole or some other similar approach - the remote button was ideal for me because it looks very close to stock.
Mistake 2: The FJ gauges have white numbers during the daylight and I looked at daylight photos of my gauges as I matched the number font and other options as best I could. Problem is, at night the numbers and backlighting are an orange/red color. I forgot this and ordered white backlighting so my speedo color does not match the rest of my gauge cluster at night. I got over this but I did discover that Speed Hut would match any backlight color so when you order a gauge you can make it a perfect match with the remaining OEM tachometer.
I am never going to sell my FJ so I was not too concerned about riding the bike without logging miles on the odometer. I kept a loose log and knew generally that my bike had about 20,000 miles on it although the stock speedo stopped at the mileage showing when I did my suspension mod. Speed Hut was happy to set my new GPS odometer to a start reading of 20,000 miles - so cool!
First things first, I took my time disassembling the bike and carefully removing the instruments. I have had the gauges out before as a unit but had never opened the gauge cluster itself so I went slowly and it was not too bad at all. It always amazes me how easy it actually is to work on the FJ....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4419/36625907220_52b9c0595d_b.jpg)
Next up was some test fitting of the GPS unit. They are quite shallow at a little more than an inch deep and the face of the unit fit nicely into the cluster without much effort at all. The Speed Hut site offered up this sizing guide, which made it easy to select the right unit. I purchased the 3+3/8" unit which fit perfectly.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4375/36851960672_87116f9561_b.jpg)
The gauge sits through the FJ "dash" and is held in place by a threaded plastic collar in the back. The only challenge to making the gauge sit perfectly in place was the grip nubs on the plastic retaining collar. I fired up my grinder and carefully removed the nubs as well as additional material from the collar in order to make it fit within the back contours of the FJ "dash".
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4404/36625907160_7449630da0_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4394/36187595204_3df8fa0bb8_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/36625907360_1a1fe840fc_b.jpg)
From here it was on to the task of making and routing the electrical connections. I went back to the search function at the forum and located a thread about a miscellaneous plug on the right side of the FJ's. There was talk of this being the connection for emissions equipment and other components but what caught my eye is that the plug was already tied to the ignition switch - I found this plug on my bike and created a two wire connection from it to the gauge area:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4370/36851961812_d07e570e28_b.jpg)
If you look closely here you can see the plug itself in white at the right side of the bike near the fuel pump with the red spade style connectors and the pair of wires running up to the gauge area. When I knew it was right, I wrapped the wires in the coiling plastic protector stuff and secured it with zip ties to the main wiring loom to make it tidy....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4393/36625908220_697192dc0e_b.jpg)
Organizing the wires at the back of the gauge was not too tough all though as I reassembled the gauge cluster it took a few tries to get the wires settled in right so that the FJ clear plastic cover would screw back on tightly with no tension in the plastic... Here you see the remote button wire coiled up behind the gauge and routing forward through the existing odometer buttonhole. The rest of the wiring fit neatly through the old speedo cable hole! You can also see several contours and supports for the old FJ speedo in the cluster shell. I used a dremmel tool to easily nip these off where they interfered with the new unit. A few of them made contact with the lock ring so I removed them all as much as I could to make sure there was room. I left the rubber sockets for the stock backlights in place but empty of bulbs. This keeps the unit sealed.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/36834953326_53405e9ee6_b.jpg)[/url]
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4391/36187595294_b50efa1659_b.jpg)
The heavier black wire that you see coming off the back of the gauge (with the brass nut) is the GPS antenna. It is on a 6ft wire that fit nicely in behind the gauge pod coiled. The FJ "dash" has a small drain hole deep in under the windscreen. I used the dremmel to open this hole up into a slot. I was able to do this without removing the rubber trim - I just pulled it out of the way and worked the hole over...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4350/36187595384_e052c323ba_b.jpg)
This provided a perfect location to route the antennae wire and park the antenna itself out of sight deep behind the windscreen - this is also an excellent location for reception and provides reasonable protection from the elements. Look closely and you can see the antenna
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4408/36625908110_cf6c0b1fe3_b.jpg)
So that is about it for the GPS Speedo Unit. I like the way it fits and I am very happy with its near stock look. It has great functionality including an altimeter, 1/4 mile timer, 0-60 timer and a few others.... Here is a view of it installed. You can see the antenna peeking up over the dash.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4423/36187595594_41772911c5_b.jpg)
Other Stuff: In order to prep for the trip I also mounted the new Bridgestone T30 sport touring tires, and added an EBC clutch spring to help my old stocker and make sure I would not get any clutch slip while loaded with bags and climbing in the mountain passes I anticipated. Of course fresh oil, plugs, air filter - I was ready!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4387/36625906970_df2d1a3692_b.jpg)
My next steps will be to take the bike apart completely and do more to the motor and frame. I really like the black frame on Frank's bike and I might go that route. My motor has always seeped a little oil near the countershaft sprocket and I think this is why I found the bike in 2002 with only 1250 miles... I intend to split the cases and fix that. Work on the transmission and maybe go big bore..... time will tell!
Cheers to all! Thanks for reading!
tim
Thank you Tim! Very, very nice work. Be sure to tell us about your trip!
.....and yes, you were missed at the WCR, but fret not, next year we ride the Sierra's :yahoo:
Pat
That gauge looks awesome. Looks almost stock. Great job and write up. Big R
+1 on the gauge. Great job!
Tim,
Thanks again for leading the way on this and providing all the detail and "dos and don'ts" ...looks great.
Jeff
Time for an update and some critical information in regards to rear suspension upgrades for anyone that is using an adjustable link dogbone.....
This morning I headed out with with Roger on our typical Sunday morning run which consists of a more sporting tour north on HWY1 into Big Sur....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4333/36983040455_66cce7d0aa_b.jpg)
There was fog on the coast so we turned inland on Old Creek and wound our way north and east up to HWY 46 and then turned west joining back to HWY 1 further north where we knew the fog would be off the coast line.... Great, fast paced rip through Old Creek which is a twisty bumpy road....
Got back onto HWY 1 and lumbered through Cambria in traffic waiting to get a bit further north where we could wick it up.... A few miles north of Cambria traveling in a straight line at about 70MPH the rear end dropped hard 7-8in slamming down against a hard stop in the suspension. I was able to get the clutch in and get the bike stopped without a tip over but it was a puckered moment that will not fade from memory any time soon...... got off the bike and it was like this:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/36585949440_98044afd60_b.jpg)
I made the call to a buddy and he was soon on the way in my pick up truck which I leave loaded with a ramp and tie downs every time I ride. Examining the bike at the side of the road we could see that the Soupy's Adjustable Dog Bone had failed catastrophically.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/36147206944_ec5311302d_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4334/36983040705_e8b9216d30_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4398/36795113156_d2be45ecbd_b.jpg)
When I got the bike back to the garage there was no significant damage anywhere... The dogbone broke and the triangle suspension linkage closed hard against the swingarm section that held it which is flat and slightly built up in material - probably specifically for this reason....
What became immediately clear is that the Soupy's Heim-joint design dogbone is no good for several reasons...
The first thing to point out is that the link broke on an area that was not threaded. Our initial dialog was focused on the threaded rod providing a natural starting place for a crack to form due to repeated stress - right in the trough of a thread. That is not what happened. The rod portion (unthreaded) broke away where it joins the Heim Loop
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4400/36795113306_8e97167e3a_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4348/36585950970_9be81410c7_b.jpg)
The second issue that was noticeable is that using a heim joint as a dogbone allows for rotational forces in the linkage to act - we can see the spacer bushing snugged into the heim joint on the frame side was wearing badly.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4414/36147207504_8dc3ee12f2_b.jpg)
We can also see that the outside of the bushings were rubbing the exterior edge of the heim joint itself... This rotational movement scored the ball inside the heim joint and after removal there was movement and slop within the joint itself... The dark marks you see on the outside edges of the heim joint are where the bushings rubbed...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4391/36795113486_f8bbc32ace_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4402/36585950590_b3d32227ab_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4431/36811629262_f3c6e9c1c7_b.jpg)
Finally, and conclusively, look at the stock dogbone from the 2007 R1 suspension laid next to the Soupy's adjustable link.... the design differences stand out dramatically to me now;
A thick bar of aluminum vs a smaller round bar.
No threads, connects or breaks in the link - its a billet piece.
Roller pin bearings which eliminate any "action" from torsional forces in the link... these forces might wear out a bearing but they cannot act on a critical component in a significant way....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4349/36811629562_f9ecffe181_b.jpg)
My plan is to remove the end bushings from the R1 dogbone and have them drilled to accept the FJ Bolt that holds the Dogbone into the frame... the other end of the R1 Dogbone will be joined to the linkage it was designed for - so no modifications needed... The spacer bushing I was using with the adjustable link at the frame end will be cut shorter to accommodate the thicker aluminum stock R1 dogbone....
Pictures to follow.
Bottomline - As I was doing the major work of my mod several other members chimed in about using the Soupy's Dogbone - I highly suggest that you get that part replaced and soon. Heim joints should not be used in a dogbone - round bar and threaded bar should not be used in a dogbone.... Every manufacture's part used for this function is either two pieces and steel or one piece and billet aluminum..... the manufacturer's engineers are paid to get it right the first time. Aftermarket parts suppliers are trying to make a quick buck - especially those who are making the parts in their garage....
Here is a link from 2013 where other riders had similar experiences... sure wish I would have known:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?270419-Dangerous-aftermarket-suspension-linkage-please-read-!!!!!!!!!/page2&s=d3519669152f67d9393ad6592b68a8c6 (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?270419-Dangerous-aftermarket-suspension-linkage-please-read-!!!!!!!!!/page2&s=d3519669152f67d9393ad6592b68a8c6)
I learned a huge lesson here and I got very, very lucky..... let this be your lesson too if you have one of these dogbones. You gotta get it off your bike!
Cheers,
tim
Good report Tim. Happy this did not happen during your normal spirited pace in the twisties.
To all using adjustable dog bones, consider this a public safety announcement.
Tim, first of all I'm pleased to see you were unharmed!
I am assuming the R1 setup is a single dogbone?
I have FZ1 swingarm with OEM FJ relay arm and a pair of Soupys adjustable bones on my '91.
I will now be removing said bones and installing the OEM bones.
Thanks for the info.
Harvy
Holy shit that is way scary man. Did you even have to put your kickstand down or did you just lean it over on a small rock?
If it was like my dogbone collapse, he had to stand there and wait for a couple of helpers to get it on the centerstand... :pardon:
This is a true testament as to the forces placed on a street bike suspension, I would have never imagined it. Looking at how the heim joint was worn, it was obvious it was being forced and torqued all over the place until it failed. If you would have held that soupy joint in front of me brand new and told me that one day it would simply just break in half, no way I would have ever believed you, I might have even called you crazy.
This PSA doesn't affect me, since I am running OEM suspension, but I would find it interesting to read what Soupy's has to say about your failure and others. They seem to sell lowering links for about any sportbike under the sun, so I wonder how they are addressing these problems.
Hi Tim,
Were the heimjoints seized or were the bushings seized into the heim joint?
Thx,
Jeff
Hi guys -
The bike managed to sit on its side stand because the hwy was slightly down hill to the stand side....
The heim joint was not seized up at all it was functioning properly but is simply not the right thing to have as a dogbone. The heim joint allowed rotational force (or torsion I'm not an engineer) to manifest - it gave it a place to show up and move. This was wearing and scoring the inner ball of the heim. it was also allowing the aluminum bushings to rub on the outside - on the joint loop or housing. The ball in the broken end could move inside the joint when you turned sideways - it was heavily worn. The space bushing wore through on its thin end... Again, comparing directly to almost every dogbone made by Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Aprillia etc - they all have a solid bar with pin style roller bearings. This design allows movement in the path that the linkage was designed for but does not accommodate any rotational force in the dogbone... the bearings might blow out but the bar won't receive and undue stress. My racer buddies and my machinist friend both agree that you should determine a length for your dogbone and adjust the ride height with the shock.
As soon as I showed it to my machinist friend (that helped me do all my mods) his comment was that this particular heim joint was not "shouldered" correctly for the use... notice how the loop of the joint terminates onto (joins into) the threaded rod with no buttressing material, no shoulder... that is where it failed.
Soupy's assembled the parts in my dogbone from a hardware source - it was not engineered. They did produce the bushings to mount it on my application. They have given some lip service to riders that are complaining as you can see from the link I supplied and many, many others on numerous different forums. They do continue to sell them. I did not even try to talk to them about it. I am not injured and my bike is not damaged so I don't have a real issue. Had this happened mid corner or while two up riding it would be a different story. One last thought on this - they market them as "lowering links" i was using mine to create additional ride height... not sure if that use made the difference in stress accumulation. I did not have an unusually long amount of thread showing etc..
I am thankful to have dodged the bullet - hoping to save others from what could be disaster. I toured the bike with full luggage.... have had passengers on etc....
Cheers!
tim
Yup reading what you said about a hardware source like mcmaster car for instance, http://www.mcmaster.com/#rod-ends/=13jjijw (http://www.mcmaster.com/#rod-ends/=13jjijw) makes almost perfect sense. Just a quick glance at one of those ends it looks like the female end would be 100 times better than the male end that broke on you. Not that I would use either but from what your machinist buddy said it makes sense, just look at the difference in shoulder from male to female, its night and day.
Tim would you mind sending me the broken rod end and the worn bushing(s) that are in the photos?
Or the whole thing so I can see the other rod end and those bushings as well?
I think I see a couple of couple of things on the broken joint but without being able to hold it in my hands I cannot be certain.
Randy - RPM
I have fitted a soupys adjustable rod on my bike.i'm going to use the standard cbr tie rod on mine and see how it goes.i might have to find something that gives me the same ride height as the soupys.
Tim,have you fixed your bike.
On my r1 conversion I currently have a Chinese aftermarket adjustable link. So far so good, but it is set at stock length....will change back to stock when I get the chance (ie probably winter..which is soon). On the bike with the CBR 600RR swing arm, I have the stock link. It would be nice to have an adjustable one, but the aftermarket ones are set up for lowering the bike and start out stock length.
Hi Randy -
Sure, I'll send the Soupy's Link to you for study however, the worn end was cut off the aluminum spacer so that it was sized right for the R1 dogbone to mount. That will have to stay here..... Would appreciate any insight you may be able to add.....
Mish - yes the bike is back together using the Stock 2007 R1 dogbone.... this required one of the R1 bushings (in the end of the dogbone) to be bored out to the ID of the FJ "dogbone to frame" bolt diameter.... These bushings are of hardened steel and it took a special boring bar in a real lathe to cut it. The R1 dogbone is 7" on center and the Soupy's was set at 6.5" plus or minus a tiny bit..... To accommodate the 7" solid aluminum R1 dogbone, I adjusted the ride height on the Penske shock bottom until the rear tire was 1/4" off the floor while the bike was on the center stand. This resulted in about 1/2" of thread showing on the shock bottom ride height adjustment... Still well within acceptable range.
I will post some pics of what was done soon in order to keep this thread current.
Cheers!
tim
Hey Tim -
Are you still using the CycleOneoff fork extensions? What has been your experience with them? Still like them?
I just swapped out an 08 R1 front end on my FZ1, and need to regain some height...It looks like the price has went up from a few years ago. :)
Quote from: jointbeaker on August 24, 2016, 11:31:15 PM
Hey Tim -
Are you still using the CycleOneoff fork extensions? What has been your experience with them? Still like them?
I just swapped out an 08 R1 front end on my FZ1, and need to regain some height...It looks like the price has went up from a few years ago. :)
and here's what my swap looks like, currently:
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s45/jointbeaker/FZ1/20160716_205834_zps3zcpacav.jpg~original)
I still have a set of my second generation fork extensions. I had made. they have 3pinch bolts instead of just a set screw. $150+ shipping.
Hi Giantkiller -
Whats' the minimum extension length given by your parts? Looks like there's plenty of length that would extend thru the upper triple, but I guess I'd be interested in knowing the minimum length...
They have a 3" extension so I can slide the clippons up for touring. And slide them back down for the twisties. If you didn't want them that long you could cut them down. A quick measure with a tape. Minimum is about 9/16"- it's a 1/2" but there is a minimal taper probably won't make a difference but I thought I should include it.
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 12:11:06 PM
They have a 3" extension so I can slide the clippons up for touring. And slide them back down for the twisties. If you didn't want them that long you could cut them down. A quick measure with a tape. Minimum is about 9/16"- it's a 1/2" but there is a minimal taper probably won't make a difference but I thought I should include it.
I'm at work right now, so this was easy to draw up...
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s45/jointbeaker/FZ1/01_zpsgvrswkc5.gif~orginal)
I'm assuming your 3" dimension is my labelled dim_03, correct?
Yes and 01 is 1/2-9/16 "
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 01:27:20 PM
Yes and 01 is 1/2-9/16 "
Ok thanks. I've got something to think about then. Where abouts are you in WI?
Quote from: giantkiller on August 24, 2016, 11:58:47 PM
I still have a set of my second generation fork extensions. I had made. they have 3pinch bolts instead of just a set screw. $150+ shipping.
I think we talked about those once I would like to talk again! Please PM
Jointbreaker - the Cycleoneoff units have served well... The single set screw always makes me nervous though. The pinch bolt approach seems like an engineering path worth taking if only for peace of mind!
Cheers!
tim
Quote from: axiom-r on August 26, 2016, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: giantkiller on August 24, 2016, 11:58:47 PM
I still have a set of my second generation fork extensions. I had made. they have 3pinch bolts instead of just a set screw. $150+ shipping.
I think we talked about those once I would like to talk again! Please PM
Jointbreaker - the Cycleoneoff units have served well... The single set screw always makes me nervous though. The pinch bolt approach seems like an engineering path worth taking if only for peace of mind!
Cheers!
tim
PM sent
Quote from: jointbeaker on August 26, 2016, 03:03:28 PM
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 01:27:20 PM
Yes and 01 is 1/2-9/16 "
Ok thanks. I've got something to think about then. Where abouts are you in WI?
I live in Fond du Lac. About 60 miles north of Milwaukee
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 04:52:21 PM
I live in Fond du Lac. About 60 miles north of Milwaukee
Ok cool. I've got friends in Appleton, and need to go see them again soon. :)
I'd assume these extensions couldn't be powdercoated due to the 3 pinch bolts. Anodized perhaps?
It appears that axiom-r wants them. Just have to get to the post office for the shipping. And let him know the cost. But perhaps you could get someone to make them up for you from the plans you have drawn up.
They could be powder coated just leave the stainless bolts. Anodizing would be better though. I don't know of any place around here that does anodizing on a couple of pieces. All big runs.
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 10:42:47 PM
It appears that axiom-r wants them. Just have to get to the post office for the shipping. And let him know the cost. But perhaps you could get someone to make them up for you from the plans you have drawn up.
They could be powder coated just leave the stainless bolts. Anodizing would be better though. I don't know of any place around here that does anodizing on a couple of pieces. All big runs.
Depends on the shop. If they are already doing a batch in the color you want then they might add your parts. This means waiting for your color to come up. Doesn't hurt to ask.
I did pick them up - thank you Giantkiller!
I am going to do a couple things with these... Yes - I would like them anodized black. I am also going to hand them over to my machinist Buzz for trimming (I don't need the extra length) and we may make a few more sets.... Giant - did you make these yourself or did you have them made? I cannot recall....
Anyway - super happy to be doing these follow up adjustments to the FJR1 mods... I will post up when I have action and pics!
tim
Quote from: axiom-r on August 29, 2016, 12:23:42 PM
I did pick them up - thank you Giantkiller!
I am going to do a couple things with these... Yes - I would like them anodized black. I am also going to hand them over to my machinist Buzz for trimming (I don't need the extra length) and we may make a few more sets.... Giant - did you make these yourself or did you have them made? I cannot recall....
Anyway - super happy to be doing these follow up adjustments to the FJR1 mods... I will post up when I have action and pics!
tim
The local suspension guru is also a machinist and a rider. I came up with the design I wanted and he made them up for me. Those are the second generation. First set was heavy-duty. Had a tapered transition from inner to the outer section. And I also put bolts in opposite directions for left and right sides on these.
I just had him disassemble the forks, weld extensions on the caps. And then machined them down. Cost me $225 a set. Had all 3 sets of gsxr 1000 forks done.
Gotta save weight and I think it looks cleaner.
Let me know where you get them anodized. And what it costs.
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 04:52:21 PM
Quote from: jointbeaker on August 26, 2016, 03:03:28 PM
Quote from: giantkiller on August 26, 2016, 01:27:20 PM
Yes and 01 is 1/2-9/16 "
Ok thanks. I've got something to think about then. Where abouts are you in WI?
I live in Fond du Lac. About 60 miles north of Milwaukee
Hi,I've been thinking of modifying my adjustable linkage.i did this to mine, what do you think of it.
Quote from: axiom-r on August 29, 2016, 12:23:42 PM
I did pick them up - thank you Giantkiller!
I am going to do a couple things with these... Yes - I would like them anodized black. I am also going to hand them over to my machinist Buzz for trimming (I don't need the extra length) and we may make a few more sets.... Giant - did you make these yourself or did you have them made? I cannot recall....
Anyway - super happy to be doing these follow up adjustments to the FJR1 mods... I will post up when I have action and pics!
tim
Hey Tim - Whatcha got for plans with your old extensions? I'm still flirting with bringing the front end back up a bit.
Hey JB -
Email sent!
Well the summertime is over...fall is setting in. While my work schedule during summer prevents me from attending the rallies on most years, it does free me up in the late fall and winter to get busy in the garage... It has been quite some time since I have updated the FJ/R1 thread so I think it is time. I want to cover two topics here to wrap them up; dog bone linkage and fork extenders.....
Here's where the chips fell.
As explained in previous posts, my Soupy's Adjustable Dogbone was (in retrospect this is obvious) a hardware store bought item. It is heim joints ended with threaded round bar connected by an adapter. After about a year of use loaded both two up and touring, the Soupy's unit failed catastrophically. I switched back to the stock 2007 R1 billet aluminum dogbone that came with the R1 parts when I found them. This required a bit of adjustment on the shock to reset ride height but now I have a bar that I know will not fail. The Soupy's unit MIGHT be ok for replacing a stock dogbone on an otherwise stock set up... For the FJ/R1 combo we never addressed any changes that might have occurred in the progressive rate linkage. We don't know how much additional force is being sent through the linkage when used on FJ positioning. We do know that the spring rate of the shock had to increase dramatically to operate correctly. Draw your own conclusions here. For me, I would never use a threaded round bar or heim joint ended dogbone again as this one could have killed me. Case closed.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4349/36811629562_f9ecffe181_b.jpg)
On to the fork extenders... When swapping the R1 front end onto the FJ it is immediately clear that the modern upside down forks are shorter than the stock FJ forks by 2"+ inches. The FJ benefits from slight lowering of the front end so I sought out to extend the R1 forks by 2". I had no plans of mounting clip on style handle bars to the forks (like stock). My plan was to utilize the low rise superbike style handlebars that typically mount through the top triple clamp in cone shaped rubber bushings. This approach let me select modern Yamaha parts and relieved me having to find or create longer fork extensions.
I first utilized an off the shelf item from Cycle One Off that was a 2" extender created for the V-Max to use modern forks (see pics from the first few posts in the thread). Here is a shot of the original extender standing next to the unit that Giantkiller had custom fabricated.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4380/36811630272_201f04b711_b.jpg)
Notice that Giantkiller's parts have about a 4" extension and utilize three pinch bolts on the extender itself. The Cycle One Off parts have a 2" extension and use a single set screw on the side. They are an interference fit in that they go over the fork top very tightly and then are held in place by the single set screw. This approach undermined my confidence in the front end. It required the pinch bolts on the upper and lower triples to hold the fork set up together. The Giantkiller units slip snugly but easily over the fork top and incorporate three pinch bolts in the design. There is substantially more material both above and below the top triple clamp by comparison... Much better peace of mind through this design.
Here are the new units test fitted on the bike:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4419/36811630552_b0939c32a4_b.jpg)
They were too long for me as the extenders came in contact with the bars and I could not lower the bike far enough:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4376/36811630402_7265d41958_b.jpg)
So.... back to see my good friend Buzz who was happy to trim them down to the right length for my set up. We took off more than 1" making them longer than the Cycle One Off pieces but still short enough to adjust the front end down to where I like it.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4355/36585952800_f9da75a366_b.jpg)[/url]
After Buzz was finished with them I sent them to be anodized black and I love the way they came out!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4489/37501900092_ea23aedfb9_k.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4480/36823238234_681d2cd655_k.jpg)
The results are the final solution for my needs and this completes the front end work for the FJ/R1 as far as I am concerned.... The new extenders are much stronger and the design resolves all my worries so there is no lack of confidence at all. In fact, it might be in my head but, the front end feels stiffer and better planted to me now.... Having the parts anodized means that they disappear when on the bike and blend in seamlessly with the other mods - I am very happy with the appearance!
Here is the finished work:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4459/36823229074_872e3c2fb8_k.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4485/36823218774_4d5b8853aa_k.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/36823231204_0c643fb813_k.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4453/36823214704_cdc3b1eaf9_k.jpg)
That's excellent work, a great write up and well photgraphed. No half measures. (I never trusted the design of those adjustable dog bones even before yours failed)
Looking good!
Noel
Nice work Tim, as always. Sure is nice to have Dan around huh?
BTW, You were missed. Perhaps next June in Petaluma?
Hey Tim where did you get the anodized. I looked into getting it done around here but everyone is geared towards big manufacturing runs. I couldn't find anyone to do just a few pieces. They look awesome black. Someday I would like to get the 3 sets of welded on ones anodized gold. But would have to disassemble them.
I am with Dan, The Black anodizing looks awesome. :good:
Fred
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 15, 2017, 05:05:34 PM
Nice work Tim, as always. Sure is nice to have Dan around huh?
BTW, You were missed. Perhaps next June in Petaluma?
Thanks Pat - I was definitely bummed to miss every rally in 2017. Hoping to make one in 2018 for sure. Yes - Dan is the man.....
Dan - I was able to get the anodizing done at a place in southern California called:
Ano Pros
803 West State Street
Ontario, CA 91762
ph: (909)983-1866
fax: (909)983-5441
info@anopros.com
Ask for Jerry and tell him I sent you. When I did the parts I told him I was going to announce his business here so It would be cool to see that come full circle for him. I think it was $125 all in. I selected Hard Anodizing which gives up some luster but last longer and is a tougher surface in general.
Thanks for compliments on the bike everybody! I cannot stop thinking about an 85% gloss black powder coated frame......
Yes. I. Am. Sick.
:Facepalm:
FYI, black anodize like all the other colors (just a dye) will fade with time and temperature. Black tends to fade to a blotchy purple. However, Hard anodize (gray to black) will not fade and greatly increases the surface hardness making it difficult to scratch. Good choice Tim.
Hello guys! Its been quite some time since I've popped in. My FJ has been sitting for the most part as I deal with life and work.... This summer has afforded me some time so I have decided to refresh the FJ and do some poking around to make sure my R1 mods are doing well..... Here's the list of To Do's:
1. New Tires
2. Refresh brake discs/pads/bolts
3. Rebuilt Front Brake Master Cylinder
4. Rebuild forks - new seals and oil
5. Check Steering Stem and Bearings for regular wear and adjustment
6. Basic Service: Plugs, Air Filter, Oil, Oil Filter
7. New RPM Oil Cooler and Lines
8. Clean Headers and Exhaust
9. Service Clutch; New Slave Cylinder from Blue Streak Racing, Barnet Coil Spring Conversion,
10. Check Swingarm Bearings and Bushings
11. Remove and clean Rear Shock – check all spacers and bushings
12. Inspect Dog Bone and bushings for wear.
I am sure other stuff will pop up – it always does! For example – I finally mounted the Vortex Gas Cap I won in a drawing at the West Coast FJ Rally long, long ago- HA!
Anywho.... I'll post up the progress and some more pics as I ready the FJR1 for some summer miles.
Cheers!
Tim
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Great to hear from you Tim! Your R-1 modded FJ is unique, for sure!
Cheers laddie...
Pat
Thanks Pat!
Hope you have been well.... The R1 mods are looking really solid so far - the steering yoke hasn't moved at all. I put a floor jack under the motor and unweighted the front stand to check it for undesired movement. No play at all and moves freely - stoked! Hoping the rear end is doing as well, will know later today.
Cheers!
We are long over due for a ride... perhaps a BBQ in Oakdale is in order?
I thought of you the other day when I was adjusting my Soupy dogbones...
Shudder...
Oh boy... those aren't dog bones! They are "lowering links"..... :Facepalm:
Would love to get a BBQ in this year. I chatted with Robert yesterday. Had the Oil Cooler Kit in my check out basket... left it overnight and the next morning the oil cooler kits were sold out!! Someone got the last one right outta my cart! :mad:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on June 02, 2024, 01:50:46 PMWe are long over due for a ride... perhaps a BBQ in Oakdale is in order?
I'd second the idea of an RPM Rally... WCR has died and no more Renegades, so a destination/pilgrimage to RPM might be what the west coast needs...?
Frank
Yea, I miss you guys...
Quote from: RACER111V on December 11, 2010, 10:26:03 PMI don't think the forks/wheel are setup for a speedo drive.I think they run a sensor off the tranny.
Axiom-m,
You can get digital GPS speedometers from Amazon for about US$35 and up (...way up). Some will have an odometer in there, and some will not. Most will have trip-meters for each ride, but are not able to track a tank of gas; they reset with each turn-on. You can get the cheap rectangular digitals, or even round gauges that should (may) replace the OEM speedo gauge. Most units will NOT need an external GPS antenna, but check to be sure.
Hey Red! I am way down the road on using a GPS Speedo... My install notes are on page 8 in the thread here. I found a Speedhut unit that works nicely. If I could do it again (I might) the unit would be a much closer match to stock with the right backlight color and everything!
:lol:
Quote from: Flynt on June 02, 2024, 07:31:53 PMQuote from: Pat Conlon on June 02, 2024, 01:50:46 PMWe are long over due for a ride... perhaps a BBQ in Oakdale is in order?
I'd second the idea of an RPM Rally... WCR has died and no more Renegades, so a destination/pilgrimage to RPM might be what the west coast needs...?
Frank
Sounds doable - it's been quite a long while... Conlon & Frank -two of the best!
Midget
I continued to disassemble yesterday to take a good look at how the R1 mods were wearing and I found a few things I thought I would share...
First and most importantly, some of you will recall that I had a Soupy's Lowering Link in use as an adjustable Dog Bone and it failed by shearing and breaking while I was riding.... The bike dropped hard onto itself when the dog bone broke slamming down and dragging the tire until I came to a stop from about 60-70 mph... Look back through this thread for the details.
As I disassembled the bike today a bolt fell out onto the drip pan with a metallic thud... I found it to be a sheared frame bolt! I am not sure that it broke when the dog bone incident occurred but it seems to me it did... That moment was the only one during my ownership of the bike when it could have happened.
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So, I've ordered 4 of these to replace them all and I am now contemplating how to remove the lower left frame rail section without dropping the motor entirely. Would appreciate any advice / experience in this area. You can see in the shot below that the lower frame bolt hole is empty. I've got to figure out how to remove the sheared bolt from the frame and that means moving the frame rail out of the way to access it.
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Got the counter shaft sprocket off for the first time since mounting it for the R1 mods. There was lots of healthy skepticism from the group here about getting the R1 rear wheel on the FJ – specifically, chain alignment was an unknown. I had located a 17-tooth sprocket that has a ¼" offset and that was very close to being in full alignment. – BUT – not quite... So, my machinist buddy made me a spacer. We had taken a guess at the right thickness and we got very close. The rear wheel rolled freely with very little chain noise and no obvious misalignment – holding a straight edge along the chain was visually good to go.
Upon inspection today, thousands of miles later, we can see things are not perfect. The spacer was not hard enough to stay perfectly conformed and a wear groove is now visible where the engine collar makes contact. So, the spacer has gotten thinner with use.
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Looking at both side of the sprocket I can now see the outside of the teeth are clean with no rub or wear marks. The inside of the teeth do show light wear and rub marks.
Outside: (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53772789912_fbfd1032ff_o.jpg)
Inside: (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53773911128_c396752635_o.jpg)
My conclusion is that I need a slightly thicker spacer made of a harder material. OR – I will add the desired spacer thickness to the needed Offset of the sprocket and try to find one that matches that measurement. I am guessing the offset needed will require a custom sprocket that would be costly – so, I am likely to stick with making a new spacer...
Also used some special Yamaha tools to completely open and clean the R1 forks...
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This is good stuff Tim. Thanks.
Hi Tim, I've had those bolts break on the lower cradle frame rails on (3) different 92/93 FJ's. Here's my fix. Look at the holes in the frame rails...they are sized for a 10mm bolt, yet Yamaha only used a smaller 8mm bolt, and a soft one at that. I drilled the 8mm threads out and tapped in 10mm and now I use SAE10.9 10mm bolts. Problem solved. I was worried about more vibration with the bigger bolts, but that is not the case.
Yes, you can get the lower rails off leaving the engine in with the 2 rear mounts. I used a bottle jack and blocks under the front of the engine to take the load off the front engine mount and thus the frame rails mounting bolts.
Never figured out why Yamaha used a soft 8mm bolt thru a 10mm frame hole... for production tolerances?
Cheers. Pat
Thanks, Mark! I'm planning to continue to update progress as well as issues on these mods...
Pat, I suspected you'd have some knowledge about this! Would love to know where you sourced the 10 mm bolts. I looked around at my hardware store and couldn't find anything metric that was grade 8 or higher.
Do you recommend replacing the rubber mounts or anything related to the front mounts when pulling those?
I'm traveling this week so I'll go back at it this weekend. If I can buy the bolts in advance I'll do that today!
Cheers!!
Tim
Bolt Depot: https://boltdepot.com/Product-Details?product=15168
Measure the existing 8mm to get the correct shaft length and thread length for the 10mm bolt. If you can't find the correct shaft length and or thread length, just get the full threaded bolt. Those bad boys will never break again...
While you have cradle off, pull out the front engine bushings and grease them up.
Cheers. Pat
Thank you, Sir... the stock bolts are M8 x 30mm x 1.25 thread pitch.
I do think I will look for an M10 that has 10mm of shoulder instead of all thread... the stock bolt has some shoulder and to me that seem right for this placement.
Tim
Get the overall length close, you can run a bit proud inside the frame, then run your die up the bolt (cut new threads) so you get the proper shoulder (shaft) length.
Weird that Yamaha used 10mm holes in the frame rails huh?
Definitely weird... But not as weird as you having seen 3 different late model FJ's with broken bolts... in that location. That is actually rather comforting to me because my mind is looking and and thinking about the rear suspension linkage that I just bolted up untested and with no engineering (shade tree wrenching all the way) as well as the dog bone failure.... either of which could have resulted in the kind of forces that would unintentionally stress that connection and sheer a bolt...
But ok! It appears Yamaha shorted the engineering and an up-sized 10mm bolt sets me free!!
:sarcastic:
Back at it today.... Went ahead and removed the front motor mounts and side rails. Glad to be going through these as the bolts and hardware all need some help and a clean-up. I'll follow Pat's advice and regrease it all once its clean. Here is the current state of the bike.
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This is why I had to disassemble it: Broken off bolt recessed into the threaded hole on the frame... Please let me hear the options and your expertise on removing a bugger like this.
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My intention is to (again) follow Pat's lead and drill these frame holes all out then tap them to accept an M10 bolt. I got really lucky and a buddy had these for the frame of an FZ-08 I think. They are exactly as needed but 5mm long.... Hoping I can drill to the proper depth and use as is – otherwise I'll mount them in my vice and grind 5mm off then clean up the threads.
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I also got the R1 forks completely rebuilt. New seals & fresh oil.
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Tim,
To remove the broken bolt before drilling and tapping the hole oversized, I would use left twist drill bits. If you have to purchase a screw extractor set to get the left twist drill bits - open the pack, carefully take out the screw extractors, and throw the brittle easily broken impossible to drill things AWAY! Spray well with P Blaster. Then start with the smallest drill bit and drill into the bolt a couple thicknesses of the drill bit. Go up to the next drill bit and repeat. Keep repeating - going deeper with each larger drill bit until the heat, oil and vibrations loosen it up or the drill bit "snags" the ever thinner edge and backs the broken bolt out. If all else fails, it will fall into the frame to live forever after you have drilled and tapped to M10 size.
Side story - I did this the WRONG WAY when I got my 89 24 years ago. I decided that heli-coils were a great idea and the best way to do this - WRONG! I still like heli-coils for blind holes in aluminum, but NOT for open holes in steel. So much better to simply drill and tap the steel. These things have been a headache ever since installing them - sometimes pulling a thread up, sometimes pushing in further ... Finally (just yesterday!) I have all of them drilled out and simply tapped even larger. Worse mechanical decision I've ever made - and that list is longer than I'd like to admit!
Good luck! At least your are doing it the right way the first time!
Chris
I support the LH drill approach. Use a center punch to get a good indent for the drill tip to follow. I have removed more broken bolts this way. Its kind of satisfying then the broken bolt spins out on the drill bit.
Yah the broken bolts are actually quite common. I've started replacing them with the bigger bolts. Before they break. It's been awhile. Thanks for the reminder. I have 4 fjs that need to have the bolts replaced.
Had to do some work travel so the FJ update went on hold... before I left I managed to fix the broken frame bolt but the process was not without some twists and turns... yeah pun intended. Here is a pic of the left-twist drill bit shattered and stuck an inch deep inside the broken bolt... had to exit the garage in a stream of expletives over that one... can't really see it....
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After some breathing exercises, meditation and several beers I went back at it. I upsized the drill bit and drilled on top of the broken bit stuck in the broken bolt... finally saw some movement. Then, using a pic and some tiny needle nose pliers finally saw the broken bit wiggle loose and come out.
Finished drilling with the larger bit and the broken bolt came out too.... Tapped all four holes with the M10 x 1.25 and was in the clear.
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Hoping to move quickly now and get more done....
Is that a little titanium bling I see?!
With 4 of those 10mm beefy tostadas in there, Tim will never have to worry about that again....
It still puzzles me as to why Yamaha would have 10mm dia.holes in the cradle frame and yet only install 8mm bolts....
Quote from: fj1289 on August 04, 2024, 01:19:21 PMIs that a little titanium bling I see?!
Just Stainless M10 hardware. I did buy the titanium bolt kit for the brake rotors fronts and rear. My wheels were starting to look pretty weathered so I freshened them up.... Hope to remount before this weekend but that might be ambitious. Have to get the front on the ground and then disassemble and inspect all the bushings on the R1 swing arm and Pensky shock... Not taking anymore chances with the rear end.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 05, 2024, 10:54:00 AMWith 4 of those 10mm beefy tostadas in there, Tim will never have to worry about that again....
It still puzzles me as to why Yamaha would have 10mm dia.holes in the cradle frame and yet only install 8mm bolts....
Pat - I could not agree more. What the hell were they thinking. Allowing that room to move is likely what causes the bolts to fail imho... :unknown:
Time to catch up on the progress of refreshing my FJ....
I had left off with a broken frame bolt and drilling for upsized hardware. I was happy to get past that issue but it wasn't the last challenge.
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While the bike was apart, I cleaned and touched up both R1 wheels and had new rubber mounted. I also cleaned and bled the front and rear brake calipers and replaced the pads. Rebuilt the Master Cylinder and replaced the Fluid Cup that had turned yellow and looked ready to crack.
After removing exhaust system, I discovered that the header flanges were bent from over tightening. I bought new ones from Delkavic but when they arrived the were of a different design with a larger aperture. As it turns out they had updated their header design to use a flare out on the header end and the new flanges were made larger to accommodate. They were thicker too – I was stoked BUT – they do not work with my early design headers so I had to return the new ones and hammer my old flanges flat on my anvil for another round of duty! I also put the Delkavic exhaust headers on the wire wheel and made them look pretty again. I had been running with the single right-side muffler for a long time and decided to go back to the 4 into 2. I love the look of it. While it was all apart I did touch up paint work on the frame and motor – masked off the bike with paper and rattle-can touch up. Came out "ok".
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I had gone completely through the front end and rebuilt the forks so I felt compelled to examine the rear to look for any unusual wear or play. The shock came out and I moved the swing arm through its full range of motion to check for end play or sloppiness in the pivot – none found. The Mod is working very well and shows no signs of stress.
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Then I decided to tackle the "Achilles Heel" of my particular bike.... I had found this FJ in 2002 with only 1250 miles on it. I got the bike and quickly realized there was an oil leak. Oil would seep out of the tiny seam between the countershaft sprocket seal and the clutch pushrod seal; a seam between the upper and lower case halves that was about an inch long. You could see a bit of the Yamabond Gasket pushed out of the seam and dangling.
It did not take too long for me to figure out that this was the reason the bike had such low miles and was in such pristine condition when I found it.
To properly fix this leak the cases would have to be split and resealed. A job that no one wants to do (or pay for) on a virtually new machine. Back in 2002 I did my best to seal the seam with JB weld and it worked in reducing the leak significantly enough that I just lived with it.
I made some mistakes in surface prep the first time I did the patch so I decided to try to redo the work now. If I got this wrong – the engine would have to come out for it to be useable again. If I got it right the leak would be gone without having to split the cases – so it was worth the shot.
SO – I started by draining the oil (at the start of this work) and letting it drip for weeks. Oil filter off too; filler cap loose. I then leaned the bike as far as I could to the right to allow internal oil to run away from the repair area. Left it leaning for a few weeks.
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I then got my Dremel tool and picks and went to work getting the old JB weld off. It was easy, coming off in flakes and chunks. I carefully taped off the counter shaft sprocket seal seat and used a properly sized rubber cork to close off the clutch pushrod seal seat.
With the seam bare and clean and with the engine sealed up to keep metal shavings out, I switched to metal use bits in the Dremel and proceeded to gouge out the seam making a trough. Cross hatching the surface on both sides. This created a "valley" for the new JB Weld to sit in and texture for it to adhere to.
Then I cleaned and cleaned again. Waited a few days and cleaned again. I was using brake cleaner as well as swabbing the case seam with acetone.
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I was confident that the surface of the case was completely oil free so I mixed up a batch of JB Weld. There are some good videos on YouTube showing much bigger engine case repairs with JB Weld so I was hopeful that I could get it right this time. I learned that the original JB Weld formula is the strongest most reliable product – I was steered away from the "high heat" and "quick curing" products.
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The JB Weld mix was a dark grey color and went on pretty easily using a toothpick as a trowel. After it sat overnight, I wetted my finger and smoothed it out creating a better looking surface to the repair. I had a lot more work to do on the bike before testing for leaks so the JB Weld repair sat for 10-12 more days curing while I focused on other stuff.... I would not know if this repair was good until I could run the bike and heat cycle the JB weld a few times.
It was a great feeling to pick the bike back up onto its wheels and start working on other stuff.
When I did the R1 conversion I had added a diaphragm spring to the clutch (running 2 springs) to stiffen up the lever and make sure there was no slippage. It worked, but I really missed the soft and easy lever pull of the stock set up. I was also always chasing the bubbles out of the clutch slave and lines – seems like I could never get it perfect. Or, perhaps I had a leak? Hard to find neutral, clunky shifts and heavy clutch feel at the lever was the condition I was dealing with. I decided to tackle the entire clutch system and try to improve it. My choice was to go with the Barnett Coil Spring Conversion Kit.
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The install was super easy. After it was in, I started looking for both a Clutch Lever and Slave rebuild kits and I found the OBERON Racing Billet Clutch Slave for FJ1200/1300. It was a bit of cash at $143 but the manufacturer claims to have improved seal design and eliminate leaks. I went for it.
When it arrived, it was super easy to install and bleed. Clutch pull instantly felt better with these two upgrades. The new Clutch Slave looks great too.
While I was going through my parts stash I found a Billet Spin on Oil Filter – Forgot I had it! Decided to give it a try. Robert at RPM had warned me about them coming loose and leaking or falling off. The center bolt was pre-drilled for safety wiring so I decided to figure that out. I have been considering buying a safety wire plier and this was a perfect excuse to buy tools!
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Clutch work = Check that off my list!
It was time to tackle the carbs!!
Off they came – disassembled on my bench and into the ultrasonic cleaner. It always amazes me that a very clean carb will go into the hot US cleaner and you can immediately see "smoke" coming off if them as the lacquer build up starts coming off.
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The carbs can be difficult to get clean as has been stated many times here on the forum – I figured I had them beat but that was not the case. I could not get the stumble out of my engine when cracking the throttle under load. Sitting in the garage it sounded great. I put everything back together expecting a full Kookaloo experience but NOPE. Stutters and stumbles off the bottom. SO very frustrating. The carbs came off and went back on 3-4 times as I tried to get them truly clean. In the end, it was the fuel filter (I think)... I changed it and cleaned the carbs once more and she ran right FINALLY.
As a final touch, I added some decals I had been hanging on to...
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The bike rides SO nice now. No stumble at all – free revving and full power. The clutch feel is excellent – no slip and no difficult clunky gear changes. Best of all - the JB Weld seam repair is working perfectly - NO LEAK!
Loving the FJ ..... YET AGAIN!!
Wonderful Tim! We are overdue for a ride.
You do awesome work your machine is a work of art.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 04, 2025, 01:39:31 PMWonderful Tim! We are overdue for a ride.
Pat - we are loooooog overdue!
Quote from: giantkiller on January 04, 2025, 03:43:47 PMYou do awesome work your machine is a work of art.
Thank you, Dan! I love it when fresh work results in fresh excitement for the bike and the ride!
Quote from: axiom-r on January 05, 2025, 01:51:51 PMThank you, Dan! I love it when fresh work results in fresh excitement for the bike and the ride!
Agree! Feels good to go back and revisit some of the things you'd like to tweak or revisit or just check on how the mods are doing. Or maybe just polishing aluminum in Pat's case! Even when the modifications are done - you still have to keep fire burning!