(http://fjowners.com/gallery/860_17_10_10_4_53_36.jpeg)
Interesting.....( note to self: I've wondered what to do with all that extra room, now that I have my new Uni-Pods...)
Tell us about this set up.
I don't know much about giggle gas but it looks to be a 2 stage dry system (I think)
If it's a dry system, what do you do to keep the motor from running lean when the gas is flowing?
Thanks for the photo.
Pat
Any idea what sort of power it makes?
Although I'm not sure I'd put stock in overall mechanical longevity, that may well make Brutus type numbers or more -fifteen seconds at a time that is.
Fits right in there doesn't it.
Nice work.
Dan
That's a wet kit. Would like to hear more about it also, I was considering doing something very similar, but concerned that the bottle would break a syphon tube from vibration and feed gas instead of liquid.
Depending on what's been done to the motor, that could make quite a lot more than any of the naturally aspirated machines here. The lower the the tach reads when the button's pushed, the more torque is made, and shocking amounts of it.
It is a wet system.already on the bike when i bought it, according to the jet size it is a 75 shot, well out of sight ,when fairings are on .this is the one i bought for 800.dollars ,it sathttp://fjowners.com/gallery/860_17_10_10_4_45_56.jpeg for 8 years now trying to get it ready for the road.winter project
It took me a minute to realize what I was looking at.....spray!
Don't some of the newere systems now have a way of monitoring temperature so you can't cook the engine?......they are supposed to be better then some of the earlier systems.
Is that a 1lb or a 2lb bottle? At a 75 shot, you'd be frosting the bottle so quickly that it'd really only be good for one strong blast, if it's a 1lb'er.
No real way to monitor head temp on the FJ, short of fairly extensive mods. You could always use EGT probes and some window switches, but seems easier to just watch the bottle pressure and have it tuned decently.
That was the other thing I was thinking of.....that seems like a really big bottle for a bike. Do they make smaller?
The size of the tank is one thing, but a properly designed control system is another item that alot of N02 systems seem to be missing and hence the bad reputation. A NO2 system SHOULD be something you press maybe once a week maybe once a month. A 10 shot system should last you all summer. Otherwize, you bought a bike that is too small.
I remember watching something on one of those Hot Rod TV shows and they were showing what a properly designed spray system should be. I believe they were watching for a rise in exhaust gas temperature (an additional sensor) and as it rose, the delivery pressure to the NO2 was reduced. The regulator to the NO2 bottle adjusted itself according to the signal from the exh temp sensor.
That made alot of sense to me. In the heat of the moment you could find yourself going for that 3rd or 4th shot of spray that will toast the engine. A syst like this would hopefully eliminate that.
Standard bottle sizes are 10oz, 1lb, 2lb, 2.5lb. They go by amount they hold, not by their own weight. A 2lb is the same as a 2.5, but slightly shorter.
Really, there isn't much use for it except at a dragstrip or for show. Not uncommon to use several pounds in a day at the track, it's also a good way to set up your airshifter (a CO2 regulator is required, though). You can go through a staggering amount of the stuff if you've got a large shot, though. A quick rule of thumb is one pound at 10hp will last one minute, but you never want to spray more than half of the bottle's capacity at a shot (or the bottle will frost over and the pressure goes away as it cools).
Still working on my motor, making things as absolutely bulletproof as possible short of big rods, and then we'll see just how much spray it takes to twist a stock swingarm :)
Quote from: andyb on October 20, 2010, 10:07:22 AM
No real way to monitor head temp on the FJ, short of fairly extensive mods.
Go-Karters and model car engine tuners use contact thermo couplers with sometimes tiny digital guages (on 1/8 model cars!) with all kind of functionality such peak held values, some with nema data logging capability and switchable outputs...
I'm currently looking to attach one of these contact probes near the spark plug on one of the centre cylinders as an ECU input - rather than EGT.
IMHO and experience, utilizing combustion chamber temperature is more useful than exhaust temp and the only way I can really summarily explain why after many engine tuning projects I've come to think this is to say: EGT measures what's happening after the "event" but to measure at or close to the combustion chamber is to "know what's going on where the action really is at".
For example, retard the ignition timing in the upper rpm under power (which could be a good thing to do with NO2) raises EGT but lowers CC temp. Another: do one run, after which exhaust temps drop/recover quickly but overall head temp can stay elevated for some time but by EGT measurement is "ready" for another run when reality is probably needs a bit more of a cool down...
Just my humble opinion but I think air cooled heads give a unique opportunity (compared to liquid cooled) to monitor combustion chamber temperatures and utilise that info because you don't have the water jacket in the way to get close to CC....
Not saying EGT is wrong, just think something a little closer to CCT is more representative, responsive and worth the effort.
Anyway, all food for thought.
Happy tuning...
Victor.
Back when I lived in NY, my Brother and I used to dabble in vintage air-cooled snowmobiles (my Brother still does)
Some of them (Arctic Cat) came with Cylinder head temp guages..... They used a temp guage with 2 separate needles for the left and right scales. The temp probe wires were attached to little rings that you install the spark plug through, and tightened it onto the cylinder head. They worked fairly well, and I imagine you could use something like that on an FJ engine..........just don't know where you'd mount the guages though.....
Sometimes the temp guage kits come up on Ebay, and my Brother sometimes scoops them up if the price is right.
Interesting stuff! Never have seen that at the track, on sleds nor otherwise with nitrous. Any concern for strength in a boosted application? The other question is how fast to react are they to changes? I mean, you could come up with window switches somehow to turn things off after a certain temp, but the big blue squirt gun can do a lot of damage in a very, very short time if there's a problem with fuel delivery.
An interesting way of ensuring safety came from a gent I met at the track. Was helping him fix a throttle linkage, and picking his brain on his nitrous install (CBR1100XX, +10" arm, motor had good pistons and headwork, spraying 100hp with a progressive controller... quite quick!). He said one of the classic cheap tricks to use is to not use the typical cold plugs; rather than the piston melting, the ground strap burns away and that cylinder drops. Plugs are cheap to replace and it's an easy repair in the pits.
I'm still pondering various solutions myself, pretty sure I know how I'm going to have things set up, but still searching for room for everything! After seeing the original picture, I'm wondering if relocating the battery would give me enough room to do things the way I'd like. Things to ponder while the motor slowly comes together (again!).
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff505/chrstwin/mytwoFJs005.jpg)
Straight into the rubber! Can you take a picture looking down the intake tract? I wonder how they're being retained, a nut internally, silicone, etc?
(http://[[img]http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff505/chrstwin/mytwoFJs014.jpg)/img]
Red X, appears to be a bad link....
Quote from: andyb on October 21, 2010, 08:15:24 AM
you could come up with window switches somehow to turn things off after a certain temp, but the big blue squirt gun can do a lot of damage in a very, very short time if there's a problem with fuel delivery.
Here are some awesome gauges I've used that have switch-able outputs that could easily trigger either a relay or maybe a simple 2N3055 transistor based switching circuit (if you're electronically inclined) that could switch your solenoids.... (no I'm not affiliated with the product)
http://www.cruzpro.com/py30.html (http://www.cruzpro.com/py30.html)
I've used this exhaust pyro and it was flawlessly reliable. I haven't bought one for a few years now and looking through the website the design hasn't changed much so it'd be fair to guess the product is quite well developed into a neat, robust little package.
The last time I used this gauge was for a Toyota 1HDT turbo diesel build up for my own 100 series Toyota Landcruiser running 3 times the factory boost at 27psi. I configured the gauge and simple controlling ancillary to manipulate MAP signals to the wastegate and to the (still) mechanical fuel pump if the EGT went over 650 degrees C. as controlling fuel rates on a diesel is critical to the engine's survival (but it's the opposite for a diesel - more fuel = higher temp). It ran un-touched for over 200,000 kilometres/2 years of heavy assed towing in the stinkin' hot north west iron ore country until I sold it, when everyone else said it would blow up the first week I ran it.... Yet it didn't blow up, would pull a 3 tonne trailer all day and night with ease and was dynoed at over 268bhp - not bad for a 4.2 litre mechanical fuel pump diesel only turning 4250 rpm....
And having run methanol fueled two stroke race engines in speedway with my own backyard version of a Hilborne constant flow injection system - well erm, let's just say if I'd bought shares in Wiseco twenty years ago I'd have saved myself a lot of money on "learning" pistons... The early ones I tuned by EGT, then later switched to probes closer to CCT. (methanol, ahhh yes, so beautiful and perfect yet so destructive and vindictive).
SO I understand your concern about how much damage ANY colour bottle can do....
Which temp you decide to utilise is a decision only you can make - it's your engine, your money and your learning curve to be had.... Everyone's gotta go the way they want to explore I don't take much notice of what other racers tell me, I figure if they're winning they're not gonna tell me how to beat them.... Like everywhere else, don't know who's full of bs or who knows something unless you prove it to yourself by experimentation.
Having an EGT, under plug or any other gauge/controller is all well and good - learning to read what it's telling you is quite another learning experience to behold...
So try EGT if you want, just think carefully about what it's really saying - cooler is not necessarily "better". Cooler indicated EGT's can occur if tuning changes advance the timing of the explosion so then maybe the heat is being more absorbed by the combustion chamber and piston. That cost me a few pistons to learn and that's why I changed away from EGT for race engine development - even though I know it's good value as a turbo diesel tuning tool...
"K" type thermo couplers are quite rugged and are very accurate from 0 to 1100 deg C. The temperature vs resistance scale for "K" type is a uniform international standard. With the Cruz Pro gauges you calibrate at 0 and 100 degrees (32 and 212 F)
with the wiring harness you're going to use. Once I've set them up, and then maybe re-check a year or so later, they've still been accurate.
In my day job I sometimes work on engines that have that much vibration they rub injector wiring harnesses through fuel rail (and squirt fuel at the turbo and set the whole furkin truck on fire - but that's a story for another day) but "K" probes live fine with the vibes from one 15000 hour engine rebuild to the next.
The one thing you have to watch with them is to pay particular attention to the quality of the wiring, connectors and the way you "prepare" the wire. By that I mean: use as few connections as possible - have one run of wire from the gauge all the way to the connector at the probe and most importantly, DO NOT SOLDER any connections - crimp them - the minor change in electrical impedance caused by soldering will mess up the true reading
more at one end of the scale than the other. I learned that one the hard way also.
Caterpillar make THE BEST, neatest, best thought out and easy to use electrical connectors on the planet. They're a variation of and made under license to Deutch (who contrary to the sound of his name was American). The o ring sealed connector which is water proof to pressure cleaner blasts, houses gold plated pins (corrosion resistant + good electrical conductor) each rated at 10amps.
The beauty of the connector is in the simple crimping operation required that actually works so well you can hang a 10 pound weight of the wire when done -
every time. Get the Deutch crimper from an auto electrical supplier is simpler than the unnecessarily complicated and expensive CAT one but either will do. So un-reliability issues related to corrosion or bad connections is virtually eliminated. While not quite "mil spec", I've seen these babies take a pounding in mining earthmoving equipment where most other OEM brands I won't name fail dismally in comparison.
Their main limitation is the 10amp maximum current loading so they're not suitable for everything. My advice - don't use the grey Deutch connectors, use the black Caterpillar ones - the difference is in how they retain the seal where the wire goes into the connector body - the CAT way is far superior because this seal is retained by an extra lead in lip moulded into the connector body while the Deutch version can allow the seal to fall out allowing water/contaminants to enter.
Phew, I need a bourbon now, tis friday night after all....
the way i understand the FJ cylinder head ( as informed by more than one respected legends engine builder.)
we are dealing with a very inefficient combustion chamber. in order to extract maximum power the engine likes the mix to be as lean as possible.....
.
the beauty of the FJ engine is it's built like a tank and very capable of handling the heat that is generated as long as air is moving over it
i think a oil temp gauge can be very informative in how the engine is tuned generally but for 1/4 mile action there wouldnt be enough time to get a read on what's happening thru the oil (it's still nice to know when the engine is fully warmed up though) the sensors for the R/C nitro cars are very sensitive and accurate.... the type with a loop would work great around a spark plug and read out almost instantly..... like was said before there are also units that will datalog... which could be some very powerful information when playing with the juice.
just remember the FJ rule.... Lean IS Mean ! and have fun :good2:
KOokaloo!
I come from the dirt bike world. Trailtech makes computers for dirt bike that have a spark plug sensor and two programmable indicator lights. About $100 for the whole thing and keeps tons of other info. Small waterproof unit.
http://trailtech.net/computers.html (http://trailtech.net/computers.html)
Or if you just want temp...
http://trailtech.net/tto_temperature.html (http://trailtech.net/tto_temperature.html)
just a thought.
K
I need more power, :yahoo:
I only have a little 1100 cc motor what are my options to go bigger ?.
Can I install 1200 cylinders and pistons on my 1100 cases/crank ?.If so do I need the whole top end,cams valves,head etc ?.I see 1250 cc kits and 1314 cc kits but money is tight so that will be some time coming.I know the 1100 mounts are diferent to the 1200 any way to mount the 1200 motor in the 1100 by changing the lower part of the frame ?.
I NEED MORE POWER.
The first four options are available from Wiseco.
77mm (1188cc, 10.25:1 or 12:1) requires a rebore
78mm (1219cc, 10.25:1) requires new sleeves and may require some clearancing on the upper crankcase.
79mm (1250cc, 10.25:1) requires resleeving and the 1200 block, some clearancing
81mm (1314cc, 10.25:1) requires resleeving and the 1200 block, some clearancing
82mm (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2428.0) (1349cc) can be done in the 1200 block, sleeves required
90mm (1621cc) requires an aftermarket block that I understand are a bit rare...
I've heard of a 1387 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=profile;u=655), and a 1380 and a 1447 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=profile;u=171) out there as well, but you'd have to ask how they did it.
Heads interchange as far as I know.
Swapping to a 1200 block+piston set would work pretty easily, but you'd want to make sure it came from a healthy machine.
Quote from: andyb on October 27, 2010, 09:12:02 AM
The first four options are available from Wiseco.
77mm (1188cc, 10.25:1 or 12:1) requires a rebore
78mm (1219cc, 10.25:1) requires new sleeves and may require some clearancing on the upper crankcase.
79mm (1250cc, 10.25:1) requires resleeving and the 1200 block, some clearancing
81mm (1314cc, 10.25:1) requires resleeving and the 1200 block, some clearancing
82mm (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2428.0) (1349cc) can be done in the 1200 block, sleeves required
90mm (1621cc) requires an aftermarket block that I understand are a bit rare...
I've heard of a 1387 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=profile;u=655), and a 1380 and a 1447 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=profile;u=171) out there as well, but you'd have to ask how they did it.
Heads interchange as far as I know.
Swapping to a 1200 block+piston set would work pretty easily, but you'd want to make sure it came from a healthy machine.
So the easiest economical way to go bigger is a 1200 cylinder and piston set up on the 1100 cases with the 1100 head.
Do the 1100 sleeves and the 1200 sleeves have the same o.d. ?
Can you bore 1100 and 1200 sleeves to the same Diamiter ?
Typically, "I need more power" and "money is tight" don't play nice with one another.
There is an old saying: "Speed costs money; how fast do you want to spend?" Sure seems true from where I sit.
Dan
Money only maters when you dont have any lol.........
...... Hi,.. I am in the process in rebuilding my motor, [right now it is at 1219cc, no sleeves] .... I have had alot of talks with several people related to FJ's [ in the past month]. From the Legend car's to Hank Scott and Randy [ in the way of .PM.]. Hank makes it sound OK, to install sleeves in the motor. But, I have also, had a conversation with a Yamaha dealer mechanic, in my area.....he has a 86 FJ 200hp turbo drag bike..... He is telling me, with passion, DO NOT install kits with sleeves. I would have nothing but problems, mostly oil leaks.
..... For the street, all I need is a set of good cams, headwork and a set of good carbs.
....... also, he is saying,.... the lower cc motors can run with the bigger cc motors, if done right. and be more reliable, and cheaper,............. No replacement for displacement ?????
...... So, If I can,.....get the thoughts on the ones, that have the kits with the sleeves in their motors.
thanks, Jeff
In the dirt bike world we send the cylinders to be nikasil plated (hard plating / no liner). That might be an option for the big bore stuff??? Just a random thought.
There is minimal difference in performance between the stock 1100 and 1200 motors.
If you want to go really fast, then save yourself lots of money and time and just go buy a used Hayabusa. You'll just wind up killing the character of the FJ trying to radically hop it up.
On the other hand, if you want to be able to RIDE FASTER, then spend money on suspension upgrades.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on October 27, 2010, 06:06:15 PM
On the other hand, if you want to be able to RIDE FASTER, then spend money on suspension upgrades.
DavidR.
Yes - and a riding school like the California Superbike School: http://www.superbikeschool.com/ (http://www.superbikeschool.com/)
Having owned both FJ 11 and 12, I dispute the notion that there is very little performance difference between the 2.
The fact is to ride on the street - the engine torque characteristics are like cheese and chalk, even more so than you would think with only less than 100cc and 5 hp difference.
12's have much more useable roll-on grunt down low which makes for less gear changing especially round town in traffic and overtaking.
Before you believe such rubbish, PROVE the above for yourself by taking even a standard 12 for a ride to compare the difference will surprise you.
The main top end horsepower limiting factor is cylinder head design but more cc increase with same head will get you more port velocity and therefore more low down grunt and as hp = torque related to time you will see some power increase with a larger capacity yet no other changes.
Although cost prohibitive for some, the XJR 1250 cylinder block is thicker in key areas (as are the 1250 cases) that reduces the likelihood of oil seapage issues that sometimes occur with boring and sleeving the 11/12 block to larger capacity and I bought some well priced second hand 1250 cylinder blocks out of the US on flea-bay lately for less than $150 each.
As a bonus, plated cylinders transfer heat much more efficiently than iron linered blocks which reduces bore distortion for reasons also related to different expansion rates of dissimilar metals. Plated cylinders last longer, run cooler (on the inside) and make more power due to better ring sealing and less friction.
I've recently spoken to: http://www.electrosil.com.au/ (http://www.electrosil.com.au/) about re-boring the 1250 blocks to 81.0 mm for my 1314 (salt lake race engines). In discussion we talked about the possibility of making liners of aluminium (I'm not running iron for reasons above). They said they've done such modifications to busa and R1 engines using 6061T6 Ally for the liners - which is a fairly common material and boring to .008" over required finished size allows for the plating process to be applied then they finish/hone to size. It can be quite costly to have done though....at least here in Oz....
I once ran a Cosworth headed Chevvy Vega engine in midget racing. I regretted changing the engine from an alloy bore to iron liners - I could never get back to same cylinder leak-down numbers with the iron liners by a differnce of about 2 to 3 % so this time will definitely be going plated even if I have to eat baked beans for a while longer yet to afford the additional cost. I think when increasing the bore size and you start to get thinner in the vicinity between cylinders is inviting distortion with iron so I totally agree with the comment of the Yamaha mechanic - I wouldn't run a high mileage street engine on big iron liners.
Quote from: Brook on October 27, 2010, 04:00:10 PM
...... Hi,.. I am in the process in rebuilding my motor, [right now it is at 1219cc, no sleeves] .... I have had a lot of talks with several people related to FJ's [ in the past month]. From the Legend car's to Hank Scott and Randy [ in the way of .PM.]. Hank makes it sound OK, to install sleeves in the motor. But, I have also, had a conversation with a Yamaha dealer mechanic, in my area.....he has a 86 FJ 200hp turbo drag bike..... He is telling me, with passion, DO NOT install kits with sleeves. I would have nothing but problems, mostly oil leaks.
..... For the street, all I need is a set of good cams, headwork and a set of good carbs.
....... also, he is saying,.... the lower cc motors can run with the bigger cc motors, if done right. and be more reliable, and cheaper,............. No replacement for displacement ?????
...... So, If I can,.....get the thoughts on the ones, that have the kits with the sleeves in their motors.
thanks, Jeff
Jeff,
I have to say after building close to 150 engines in my FJ career I have never experienced an "oil leak" due to a sleeve. Frankly, I cannot even give you a reason why there would be an oil leak issue with a sleeve. Heck, Yamaha installed sleeves to begin with.
I have probably installed close to 200 sleeves and I have had no problems to this point. I will say I have had several engine come in from other builders where the sleeve were not installed correctly, but they did not leak oil...Hell, we bore out the thin wall nikasil sleeves that come in the XJR1250 and install thick wall steel sleeves to reduce cylinder distortion and prolong ring seal.
There is a great amount of gain by increasing the amount of fuel and air into the engine which will increase the power, but the best engines are a combination of all of the right parts to get optimum performance.
No offense to you Yamaha dealer, but he really doesn't make much sense with that comment.
Randy - RPM
...... Randy,... I am just repeating what he told me. But, I did see something about oil leaks with big bore kits in the Rod Mumford write up. it said, you must fill the holes ?? or you will blow the head gasket.
and that is what Mike the Yamaha mechanic said. ...
.. I still would like to get a 1349 kit, but, what scares me is finding the machine shop in my area that has experience with FJ motors. Because, I know the cases have to be cut.
Jeff
Quote from: WestOzFJ on October 27, 2010, 07:55:24 PM
Having owned both FJ 11 and 12, I dispute the notion that there is very little performance difference between the 2.
The fact is to ride on the street - the engine torque characteristics are like cheese and chalk, even more so than you would think with only less than 100cc and 5 hp difference.
12's have much more useable roll-on grunt down low which makes for less gear changing especially round town in traffic and overtaking.
Before you believe such rubbish, PROVE the above for yourself by taking even a standard 12 for a ride to compare the difference will surprise you.
I guess "opinions" vary. I currenty OWN an '85 1100 and a '93 1200. Been riding the '85 for 25 years and the '93 for over 10.
If the 1100 lacks anything in low end torque, it makes up for it with the slightly higher gearing. So maybe the 1200 is slightly stronger, but it's not a night and day difference. I can ride them back to back and the only thing noticeable is the rubber engine mounts of the '93.
The point I was trying to make was instead of spending big bucks and investing a ton of time trying to turn the FJ into something it isn't, just go buy something else. There's always someone faster out there, no matter how much you spend.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on October 27, 2010, 10:32:32 PM
I guess "opinions" vary. I currenty OWN an '85 1100 and a '93 1200. Been riding the '85 for 25 years and the '93 for over 10.
If the 1100 lacks anything in low end torque, it makes up for it with the slightly higher gearing.
I was waiting for that from the second I read his comment.
:mocking:
I'd have to agree with Westozfj having just converted my '85 1100 to a 1200 by simply fitting a standard 1200 block and pistons. The difference is very noticeable. The bottom to mid range torque has increased alot. The fact that some of you own both 1100 and 1200 bikes and say the difference is not so noticeable, maybe due to the 1200 being slightly heavier and having a taller fairing?
Pete.
Folks-
Displacement is important. But 100 CC? Seriously? He's what I do know: my '85 FJ1100 would show an *indicated 156 at top speed. My '02 GSXR750 shows and *indicated 178. I know both of these are optimistic but the Gixxer is clearly faster, in all but the real world roll on power where the power delivery characteristics of the FJ is markedly better than the GSXR.
But just stop and think about it, if a 750 can out run an 1100 in most cases, (but not all flame away if you must) then there is more to it than displacement. Gearing, to David's point, curb weight, wind resistance (at higher speeds), and engine tuning, spring to mind.
I'm thinking that folks that say they can 'feel' a significant difference really 'feel' a bit artificially superior because of their extra 100CC.
Commence flaming.
Dan
My opinion (which is worthless as my garage is full of racing FJ bits) is that you should make sure the bike is running as well as it can run, as that's where you can often get a fair bit of power for not much money at all. And then, a gearing swap is going to be far and away the best thing for increasing thrust to the ground. After that, smart money is on getting something with more power (and/or lighter weight) in the first place.
The only thing I'll point out to Dan is while a 750 is easily a bunch faster at the top end (probably an honest 160ish vs a realistic 145), the roll-on performance is what many folks want. The one that always bothers me is when people dont' compare apples to apples. An FJ at 3k makes pretty good torque. A well built cruiser will make far more at 3k. The difference is redlines and gearing. If you want a really fun comparison, sit down and work it out by percentages and compare them at the same actual speeds (fastest way to double torque is to halve the gearing). So compare bike A at 30% of redline in a gear that goes 100mph even against 30% of redline in a gear that goes 100mph... it probably won't be the same gear, if the bikes are different enough. When you start doing that, you really start to wonder, because you can clearly see that so many of the "really torquey" engines are actually utter crap and geared comparably short against a relatively "peaky" engine.
In the case of a 1100 vs the 1200 stock engines, you'd have to have both on comparable gearing (which the FJ is artifically sensitive to if you're measuring at the dragstrip, take note benchracers!). However, when you're talking about going from the stock compression and higher mileage older 1100 to a freshly-pistoned 1200 where everything's in good shape and working as intended, the back to back difference should be quite easily felt. Remember that these are not new bikes by any means, and they don't all run the same (see original point, get what you have running as well as possible for what it is!).
I have 2 cents. I was at the dragstrip with my 87 FJ. Hot evening at 800m, so the times weren't great. Also, I'm just not that good at it as I don't do it more than once a decade. Was up against a GSXR750, looked like a newer 06-07. I thought I'd at least get half track on him whereupon he'd scream by me. Didn't happen, I was behind the whole way on a fairly good hookup. A quick guess is that his lower weight beats my greater torque. I'd have to assume though that if we both rolled out at 3000rpm and whacked it, I'd walk away from him for the first bit anyway as I'd be in a meatier part of my torque band.
Anyways, I don't discount 100cc, or 91cc. It is 8% greater displacement, not insubstantial. Might not show at the peak if the breathing apparatus is the same, but would definitely show through the middle.
Partially that's riding skill too. Go to the track enough and you'll abuse machines that should have no right to see your taillight. Once in awhile you'll catch someone riding their machine absolutely flawlessly, and they'll beat you with something that should not have any chance at all. The FJ is nice as it's a fairly easy bike to launch relatively well, compared to a peakier powerplant.
I did have a hard time hooking up on quite a few of my runs. Track was kind of slippery, most of the bikes there were having trouble. Even on a low rpm launch I'd break loose as the rpms came up and I got off the apron. Usually had to short shift out of first. My best run of the night was my second one, after that I couldn't find the sweet spot anymore. Here's what I posted on the PG Vintage Bike Clubs website about the evenings races.......
Roseanne managed a best time of 11.89s and a top speed on 114.3, though not on the same runs. The best time was on my 2nd run, best speed on my 3rd. All downhill from there as the track became slipperier. Everyone seemed to have the same trouble. I ran those number in the handy dandy calculators and currently my bike is putting out about 90hp. The time corrects due to weather down to 11.3s and 120.2mph. Running that back into the handy dandy calculator has Roseanne putting out 103hp at standard conditions. The review from the July 1989 edition of Cycle Magazine had the dyon saying 102.7hp and it running 11.03@123.7, so Roseanne isn't doing too too bad for have 93,000km on the clocks. An earlier test of an FJ pulled out 10.78@127.1, I'm guessing that one was a ringer.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_i1RdtzMrLUM/TMnGlMegLJI/AAAAAAAAAOM/3tSgvX6eLTE/s400/HANS_1200.jpg)
Your point Andy is well taken, the 1100's are inherently older and likely to be in a lower, age-related state of tune, but assuming you had a mechanically pristine stock 1100 running next to a mechanically pristine stock 1200. I'm thinking the weight and gearing difference between the two are going to make the power related 'feel' fairly hard to distinguish, not impossible mind, just fairly hard to.
Dan
Well i guess everyone know which side i'm taking on this matter :yes:
..... yes you can buy a faster machine than the FJ will ever be....
yes building Brutus was very expensive.... but it didnt cost as much as a new Busa.
In the end i have wound up with a motorcycle that has an RDI of Zero (No one is gonna roll up bside me on a bike exactly like it )
A bike that puts a shit eatin' grin on my face (and most bikes behind me) every time i twist the throttle
A bike that i can still enjoy just looking at.
spending the money on the engine build made (and still makes) perfect sense to me. :good2:
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/Racerman27410/ECFR%202010%20Birthday%20ride/ECFR2010040.jpg)
KOokaloo!
If you had a worn 1100 and rebuilt it to a 1200 I would believe there could be a noticeable difference.
but if I ride my 1100 and then a 1200 (assuming it is not Brutis) I don't feel it. Maybe the weight and gearing is responsible,
but than again I'm not chasing .001s
(popcorn)
..... racerman_ 27410,... I could have not said that better myself,.... If you have a Busa or a GSXXR or a R1. What do you have?..... Just another Busa, Gsxxr or a R1....
...When I, pull-up on a Saturday night,.... where is a group of guys on thier bikes.......I do not have to worry, about seeing another bike like mine?
...... 1219cc^^^ 1314cc, 1349cc ??
...... I am getting a hard-on, just thinking about it !!!...LOL
Quote from: Brook on October 28, 2010, 08:02:55 PM
..... racerman_ 27410,... I could have not said that better myself,.... If you have a Busa or a GSXXR or a R1. What do you have?..... Just another Busa, Gsxxr or a R1....
...When I, pull-up on a Saturday night,.... where is a group of guys on thier bikes.......I do not have to worry, about seeing another bike like mine?
...... 1219cc^^^ 1314cc, 1349cc ??
...... I am getting a hard-on, just thinking about it !!!...LOL
1349cc of course .... 115 lb/ft of torque IS the icing on my Kookaloo cake! :good2:
Kookaloo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Putting aside the hard-on comment and turning to the stroke, is the torque increase purely a function of larger bore, higher compression ratio and increased V.E.? Or are there stroker mods for FJ's? I like a little extra leverage.
Quote from: carsick on October 28, 2010, 08:45:17 PM
Putting aside the hard-on comment and turning to the stroke, is the torque increase purely a function of larger bore, higher compression ratio and increased V.E.? Or are there stroker mods for FJ's? I like a little extra leverage.
from what i can gather most of it stems from the added displacement and more efficient/complete cylinder filling by using the stock valve sizes (more displacement = better pump= improved cylinder filling)
you can get the big HP numbers with larger valves but the trade off is a loss of low end torque and i wanted (and got) a torque monster :yahoo:
i'm only running 10:25 compression so i can use pump gas.... all my numbers could be considerably higher albeit by virtue of adding more compression but TBH i cant really exploit all i've got right now... on the street anyway.
track day with hard bags and still get the holeshot ? :good2:
KOokaloo!
Quote from: andyb on October 21, 2010, 08:15:24 AM
Interesting stuff! Never have seen that at the track, on sleds nor otherwise with nitrous. Any concern for strength in a boosted application? The other question is how fast to react are they to changes? I mean, you could come up with window switches somehow to turn things off after a certain temp, but the big blue squirt gun can do a lot of damage in a very, very short time if there's a problem with fuel delivery.
An interesting way of ensuring safety came from a gent I met at the track. Was helping him fix a throttle linkage, and picking his brain on his nitrous install (CBR1100XX, +10" arm, motor had good pistons and headwork, spraying 100hp with a progressive controller... quite quick!). He said one of the classic cheap tricks to use is to not use the typical cold plugs; rather than the piston melting, the ground strap burns away and that cylinder drops. Plugs are cheap to replace and it's an easy repair in the pits.
The good thing about nitrous is that you don't have to run it lean to make power. Just use a bigger shot with more/excess fuel and keep things safe. Ryan Schnitz (Schnitz Racing) say to tune nitrous to an 11.8 to 1 AF ration on turbo and supercharged engines, and 11.6 to 1 on normally aspirated.
That is a lot richer than the 13.2 to 1 that most dynojet operators tune to. Nobody seems to be able to agree on thermocouple temps. I have run 1400-1450 degrees F for extended periods on my supercharged Aprlia without issue. That was with a 12.4 to 1 AF ratio But go a little leaner and get up to 1525 and stuff starts to melt.
:gamer: :gamer: :gamer:
Anyone running the $1300 watercooled 1250 billet cylinders on ebay
Item number: 180559467686
This auction is for a new Yamaha XJR1250 water cooled block . This is a CNC machined block for the FJ Yamaha series engine as seen used in Baby Grand Race Cars. The water cooled block kit includes the head gasket and special dowels needed for this block. The steel sleeves have already been installed and bored and honed to the standard 1250 piston size. We have several different piston kits available for this cylinder block and can be purchased from us as well. We also have the piston kits available in different compression ratios as well. Please note that the crankcases will have to be modified for 1250cc clearance (if installed on a FJ1100/1200 series block). Andrews Motorsports can perform that service for you if needed.
Please email me at curt@andrewsmotorsports.com if you have any questions!