I am not familiar with the GSXR wheel swap.......
I have a question for you.
Does the caliper mounting bracket pivot on a bearing of some sort? :unknown:
By torquing the axle nut tight you are locking it in place otherwise, and having the brake torque arm mounted to anything other than the swingarm will want to push the caliper backwards, and pull it forwards when the swingarm moves up and down.
Just want to make sure you are not about to embark on some sort of unsafe riding experience.
Quote from: Firehawk068 on September 19, 2010, 12:03:52 PM
I am not familiar with the GSXR wheel swap.......
I have a question for you.
Does the caliper mounting bracket pivot on a bearing of some sort? :unknown:
By torquing the axle nut tight you are locking it in place otherwise, and having the brake torque arm mounted to anything other than the swingarm will want to push the caliper backwards, and pull it forwards when the swingarm moves up and down.
Just want to make sure you are not about to embark on some sort of unsafe riding experience.
There is a bush in the brake mounting bracket which allows movement.
Connecting the brake torque arm to a fixed part of the chassis allows the brake to not affect the suspension as the wheel moves up and down and for the braking force to be isolated from chassis movement.
Arnie
Thanks Arnie......
I have never seen a GSXR caliper bracket. I was unaware that they are allowed to pivot........
But.....I still think mounting the torque arm to the frame, and not the swingarm would cause the braking force to load, and unload the suspension.......also, the torque arm would have to have some provision for pivoting up and down at each end as the swingarm moves up and down. Doesn't seem like you would be able to bolt it securely at each end.....
Maybe the suspension guru's can chime in.....I'm just curious
The suzuki torque arm is fitted with a bearing in the end attached to the frame,thus allowing movement with the swinging arm.I wanted to fit the torque arm to the swinging arm by welding a mounting lug on the underside of the arm.But by removing the right exhaust damper there was just enough room to use the footrest mounting hole.Much quicker and as I cant weld aluminium (or anything else!) it was the way to go for me.
(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac57/iankawa/P1030540.jpg)
Here's a pic to show the nicer line of the torque arm.It just fits above the exhaust damper and I used a 75mm M6 bolt to fix it through the footrest bracket hole.I couldn't find a cap head to match dammit!
The big plus is you keep the centrestand.
Quote from: Firehawk068 on September 20, 2010, 02:17:05 AM
Thanks Arnie......
I have never seen a GSXR caliper bracket. I was unaware that they are allowed to pivot........
But.....I still think mounting the torque arm to the frame, and not the swingarm would cause the braking force to load, and unload the suspension.......also, the torque arm would have to have some provision for pivoting up and down at each end as the swingarm moves up and down. Doesn't seem like you would be able to bolt it securely at each end.....
Maybe the suspension guru's can chime in.....I'm just curious
Alan,
Both ends of the torque arm are allowed to pivot. The brake caliper bracket can also rotate on the axle. This allows the brake and the suspension to operate independantly if the torque arm is attached to the frame.
If you attach the torque arm to the swingarm then the braking will impart some force into the suspension. You could also key the brake directly to the swingarm to prevent it rotating, but again, this will affect suspension action.
In the picture you can just see the forked end of the torque arm. The mount bolt goes through a bearing on the caliper.
Arnie
I'm not sure that I understand what you're describing, Arnie. If the rear caliper is mounted to the swingarm, all the force stays in the swingarm and should not affect suspension action (given that the swingarm is sufficiently stiff to not distort).
Kind of like a single front brake doesn't torque the wheel one way or the other since all the force is applied to the fork slider.
Am I missing something?
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on September 20, 2010, 09:39:10 PM
I'm not sure that I understand what you're describing, Arnie. If the rear caliper is mounted to the swingarm, all the force stays in the swingarm and should not affect suspension action (given that the swingarm is sufficiently stiff to not distort).
Kind of like a single front brake doesn't torque the wheel one way or the other since all the force is applied to the fork slider.
Am I missing something?
DavidR.
+1 IMO the brake torque arm should move in the same plane as the swingarm.... easiest way to accomplish that is have it attached to the swimgarm..
KOokaloo!
http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/Racerman27410/ECFR%202010%20Birthday%20ride/?action=view¤t=ECFR2010203.mp4 (http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/Racerman27410/ECFR%202010%20Birthday%20ride/?action=view¤t=ECFR2010203.mp4)
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on September 20, 2010, 09:39:10 PM
I'm not sure that I understand what you're describing, Arnie. If the rear caliper is mounted to the swingarm, all the force stays in the swingarm and should not affect suspension action (given that the swingarm is sufficiently stiff to not distort).
Kind of like a single front brake doesn't torque the wheel one way or the other since all the force is applied to the fork slider.
Am I missing something?
DavidR.
Its not that the brake tries to twist the swingarm laterally, but affects it vertically. I don't know if force is sufficient to make a noticable difference, but as with a shaft drive torque reaction, the brake forces try to compress or extend the suspension if the brake is fixed to the swingarm. The closer to the swingarm axle or ideally to the chassis the torqe arm anchor is, the less the effect.
Arnie
I think it should be the other way around.......
If you mount the brake torque arm to the swingarm, It does NOT produce torque to the suspension.....
If you mount it to the frame, it will introduce braking torque to the swingarm.....maybe not enough to feel in a striaght line, but if you were using rear brake in a corner, I think it would upset your suspension......
Let me try this analogy:
I'm standing on one side of the swingarm and pulling up on it REALLY hard. Am I affecting the suspension? I don't think so. All I'm doing is inducing stress in that arm of the swingarm which it resists beacuse it is much stronger than I am.
Now, If my feet are on the frame and I pull up on the swingarm, then I will induce movement into the suspension.
At least that's how I'm picturing it in my mind.
DavidR.
Arnie, David is correct.
Quote from: Arnie on September 20, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
Both ends of the torque arm are allowed to pivot......
Arnie
The above statement is Correct
Quote from: Arnie on September 20, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
".....The brake caliper bracket can also rotate on the axle....."
Arnie
The above statement is correct.
Quote from: Arnie on September 20, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
"...... This allows the brake and the suspension to operate independantly if the torque arm is attached to the frame....."
Arnie
The above statement is incorrect. Reason: If the brake torque arm is connected to the frame, when the brake is applied and the torque arm is under tension, and the swing arm moves up and down, the tension load is transmitted to the frame which can interfere with the movement of the swingarm as well as the possibility of uneven loading on the caliper/rotor as it rotates caliper back and forth (when the swingarm moves)
Quote from: Arnie on September 20, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
".....If you attach the torque arm to the swingarm then the braking will impart some force into the suspension.
Arnie
This statement is incorrect. You WANT the torque arm attached to the swing arm. By doing so, the swing arm can travel thru it's full range of motion without any loading that would happen from a frame mounted torque arm.
Quote from: Arnie on September 20, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
You could also key the brake directly to the swingarm to prevent it rotating, but again, this will affect suspension action.
Arnie
Correct: Many bikes have no torque arm but the caliper mounting arm is keyed to the swing arm to transfer the tension loads.
Incorrect: Again, by doing this (keying the caliper arm to the swing arm) you will not affect the suspension travel. The loads are transmitted to the swing arm.
Quote from: Arnie on 21 September 2010, 01:01:21
".....The brake caliper bracket can also rotate on the axle....."
Arnie
The above statement is correct.
Are you sure...........it will rotate on the axle if the axle is not torqued up, but it seems to me that there is no way it can rotate when torqued up, as it bares on the swingarm.
It seems to me that the calliper bracket torque arm must be attached to the swingarm (thus forming a triangle). If its bolted to the frame somewhere, you have a trapezium which, as the swingarm moves up and down, tries to increase/decrease the length of the lower side of the trap..... and as its a fixed length, the only way for it not to affect suspension travel would be to allow the calliper bracket to pivot on the axle..... and as I said above, this is not possible with the axle torqued up.
OR am I wrong about the bracket not pivoting?
Harvy
Quote from: Harvy on September 22, 2010, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: Arnie on 21 September 2010, 01:01:21
".....The brake caliper bracket can also rotate on the axle....."
Arnie
The above statement is correct.
Are you sure...........it will rotate on the axle if the axle is not torqued up, but it seems to me that there is no way it can rotate when torqued up, as it bares on the swingarm......OR am I wrong about the bracket not pivoting?
Harvy
Harvy, rest assured, even with the axle nut torqued and pressure squeezing against the caliper bracket, the UNRESTRAINED caliper bracket and caliper WILL rotate on the axle if you apply the rear brake.
Here's a test: Take off your torque arm, go out for a ride, step on the brake pedal and see what happens...
Here's a test: Take off your torque arm, go out for a ride, step on the brake pedal and see what happens...
I will take your word for it Pat.......... but I would still rather have the stay arm bolted to the swingarm. :flag_of_truce:
Harvy
I'm not sure we can come to agreement on all part of this, but I'll give it one more shot.
And, I'm sure you'll poke holes in my explaination. :-/
We (mostly) seem to be in agreement that the brake caliper bracket can rotate on the axle if not constrained by the torque arm. This is good, as it IS the case.
The rear wheel and the various components that rotate with it have a certain amount of inertia or momentum. When the caliper squeezes the disk most of the momentum is translated to a linear force acting through the torque arm. If the torque arm is connected to the swing arm it will become a triangular structure and as long as all the pieces are strong enough to not bend then there will be no effect. So my initial statement was wrong.
However, if the torque arm is connected to the frame and the caliper is underslung then the torque arm is in tension when braking and this will help limit the rear of the bike from squatting.
Arnie
Sorry Arnie, I did not mean to slam you. I wanted to show where I agreed and disagreed with your statements.
Remember the squeeze that Harvy was talking about? The squeeze between the swing arm and the caliper bracket when the axle nut is torqued. We all agree that this squeeze will slow down, or resist (but not stop) rotation of the unrestrained caliper bracket as it rotates around the axle.
Keep this thought for a minute.
Now if your brake torque arm (or stay arm) is connected to the frame here's a test you can do to see what I mean:
1) Loosen the back axle nut.
2) Put the bike on a center stand (or other method) to raise the rear tire off the ground. Do not use a swing arm stand as you will see why in a minute.
3) Support the rear wheel with a block and disconnect one side of the 2 dog bones, so now you can move the swing arm up and down without fighting the shock.
Now move the wheel/swingarm up and down looking at the position of the rear caliper. Notice as you move the swing arm up the rear caliper rotates (moves) forward towards the front of the bike, and as you move the wheel/swingarm down the caliper rotates (moves) to the rear of the bike.
This is the trapezium that Harvy was talking about.
**The fact that the torque arm is anchored to a spot on the frame that is different from the location of the swing arm pivot bolt, means that the caliper will move back and forth as the swing arm moves up and down**
Ok so you say, "What's the big deal if the caliper moves back and forth when the swing arm moves up and down?"
Here's the rub (get it?) All is fine when the axle nut is loose. The swing arm moves up and down, the caliper rotates forward and back, nice and easy, no problem.
Now with the dogbones still disconnected....Tighten up the back axle nut, remembering the squeeze that Harvy was talking about? Now move the swing arm up and down. Feel the difference? The friction from the squeeze on the caliper arm is fighting the free range of motion of the swing arm.
If the torque arm is connected to the swing arm, the caliper bracket and caliper stays still (in one spot) as the swing arm moves up and down.
You guys use the rear brake?
I am very tempted to stick my hand in this blender of a conversation, but the weather's too nice outside to be sucked in. I do congratulate all parties involved for keeping a civil tone, and diplomatically trying to convince dissenters that they just don't understand. I was going to disagree with a few points, then realized I don't know what the hell I'm talking about and couldn't amass sufficient evidence to prove my position. I am enjoying the lively discussion, keep up the good work folks!
thanks to pat for clearing that up. :good2:
my head was starting to hurt :wacko3:
Pat,
I didn't take your response as a "slam", so no need to apologize. I am OK with people disagreeing with me and supporting their position. I might even learn something. :-)
Trapizius is a muscle. Trapizoid is a quadralinear figure that if regular looks like a truncated triangle. I don't know what a trapizium is.
Arnie
Quote from: Arnie on September 23, 2010, 07:31:08 PM
I don't know what a trapizium is.
Touche mi amigo....LOL, neither do I... but it sounded bitchen, huh?
Quote from: Arnie on September 23, 2010, 07:31:08 PM
I don't know what a trapizium is.
Arnie
A trapizium is a device used during various high-flying acts in the circus......but only if it is held in a gymnasium.... :sarcastic:
Trapazoid
Quote from: Arnie on September 23, 2010, 07:31:08 PM
Pat,
I didn't take your response as a "slam", so no need to apologize. I am OK with people disagreeing with me and supporting their position. I might even learn something. :-)
Trapizius is a muscle. Trapizoid is a quadralinear figure that if regular looks like a truncated triangle. I don't know what a trapizium is.
Arnie
Trapezius/trapezoid. I don't know what a "trapizoid" is. :biggrin:
Gaudere's Law: Any post containing a correction to an error in spelling or grammar will itself contain an error in spelling or grammar. ("Gaudere" was a moderator on the Straight Dope Message Board). Also known as "Muphry's Law", intentionally misspelled.
St. Rossi the Pedantic
Quote from: Arnie on September 19, 2010, 07:16:30 PM
Quote from: Firehawk068 on September 19, 2010, 12:03:52 PM
I am not familiar with the GSXR wheel swap.......
I have a question for you.
Does the caliper mounting bracket pivot on a bearing of some sort? :unknown:
By torquing the axle nut tight you are locking it in place otherwise, and having the brake torque arm mounted to anything other than the swingarm will want to push the caliper backwards, and pull it forwards when the swingarm moves up and down.
Just want to make sure you are not about to embark on some sort of unsafe riding experience.
There is a bush in the brake mounting bracket which allows movement.
Connecting the brake torque arm to a fixed part of the chassis allows the brake to not affect the suspension as the wheel moves up and down and for the braking force to be isolated from chassis movement.
Arnie
Hey Arnie, I'm sorry I missed this fact. :flag_of_truce:
If the GSXR caliper bracket does have a bushing, then my discussion (pontification) on the squeeze friction inhibiting the swing arm travel does not apply.
The bushing will take the squeeze and not the caliper mounting arm. I was unfamiliar the the GSXR bracket.
The FJ bracket does not have this bushing feature nor does the YZF1000 Thunder Ace brackets which I am familiar with...
You will still get a little bit of drag from the GSXR bracket rotating over the bushing but with a bit of Moly Lube it should be no big deal.
Again, sorry about that....
Quote from: carsick on September 23, 2010, 02:36:43 PM
You guys use the rear brake?
I am very tempted to stick my hand in this blender of a conversation,
All right I'll stick my hand in, don't those GSXR's calipers mount to the frame.
seems like if it was a big "no no" they would have changed that back in the 80's
Not saying it is better or worse than mounting to the swing arm, but......come on...........
The 91-92 GSXR1100 caliper mount has a pivot built in to allow it to freely rotate around the axle as the wheel moves, provided it is properly working of course. It really does not matter where it is attached provided it is able to move completely through its range of motion without binding. if the bushing seizes you can run into serious handling issues if it is attached to the frame rather than the swing arm. It's fairly unlikely that this will happen if carefully installed and maintained but it can be a concern.
There is very little reason aside from cost to design a system like the suzuki but it does work well. The yamaha stock parts must be attached to the swingarm as they do not have this bushing and are not free to rotate. When modifying a bikes chassis all aspects of the mod need to be taken into account.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 24, 2010, 11:52:46 AM
Quote from: Arnie on September 19, 2010, 07:16:30 PM
Quote from: Firehawk068 on September 19, 2010, 12:03:52 PM
I am not familiar with the GSXR wheel swap.......
I have a question for you.
Does the caliper mounting bracket pivot on a bearing of some sort? :unknown:
By torquing the axle nut tight you are locking it in place otherwise, and having the brake torque arm mounted to anything other than the swingarm will want to push the caliper backwards, and pull it forwards when the swingarm moves up and down.
Just want to make sure you are not about to embark on some sort of unsafe riding experience.
There is a bush in the brake mounting bracket which allows movement.
Connecting the brake torque arm to a fixed part of the chassis allows the brake to not affect the suspension as the wheel moves up and down and for the braking force to be isolated from chassis movement.
Arnie
Hey Arnie, I'm sorry I missed this fact. :flag_of_truce:
If the GSXR caliper bracket does have a bushing, then my discussion (pontification) on the squeeze friction inhibiting the swing arm travel does not apply.
The bushing will take the squeeze and not the caliper mounting arm. I was unfamiliar the the GSXR bracket.
The FJ bracket does not have this bushing feature nor does the YZF1000 Thunder Ace brackets which I am familiar with...
You will still get a little bit of drag from the GSXR bracket rotating over the bushing but with a bit of Moly Lube it should be no big deal.
Again, sorry about that....
Ahha........OK now that makes sense......... I was also unaware of this......so the hanger can rotate about the axle freely with the axle torqued, and the stay bar can pivot at the front the back mounting points.
That being the case.........I withdraw my concerns also.
Harvy
Quote from: the fan on September 24, 2010, 02:40:20 PM
It really does not matter where it is attached provided it is able to move completely through its range of motion without binding.
It DOES matter where it is attached. It makes a HUGE difference.
If the brake reaction arm is mounted to the swing arm then the torque reaction is ultimately transferred through the suspension and results in rear wheel squat. Rear wheel "hop" under high braking load is caused by this reaction of compressing the rear suspension which then unloads, loses traction, suspension drops back down due to no braking effect/no torque reaction, tyres contacts the road again so braking force torque reaction back on and so the oscillating cycle starts again....
When the arm is mounted to the frame the 100% of the torque reaction is no longer transferred through the suspension although, some percentage or component of the total force may in effect transfer which will depend largely on the angle of the arm and where it mounts particularly in relation to the swing arm angle and pivot point.
To demonstrate this, there was a 1970's experiment on Barry Sheen's grand prix Suzuki whereby the FRONT calipers were mounted on floating radial mounts and the torque reaction arms went vertically to mount on/under the lower triple tree. Therefore upon suspension compression the calipers rotated freely and were in effect suspended unsprung weight - one of the reasons they tried it. When heavy front braking force was applied the front of the bike didn't dive - it actually ROSE UP because as the calipers tried to rotate, the torque reaction was transferred vertically and converted to suspension movement according to the forces now at play.
So lets transpose that experiment to the rear and to demonstrate the potential, imagine a hypothetical where a true floating rear caliper that (let's say) sat in the 9 o'clock position and the reaction arm were to mount vertically upwards to the rear subframe.... The caliper would become (to some degree) unsprung mass as it's now supported and the braking force would raise the back of the bike upwards actually creating artificial mass and therefore increasing traction.
It makes a HUGE difference where it's mounted - it's all about directing that force...
Interesting discussion.The rear brake has a nice progressive action and no real noticable affect on the rear suspension action.I hope I'll be as happy with the front end when I upgrade that.
Can a brake torque arm be chassis mounted? This doesn't make sense! The caliper mount has to be stationary...right? As an example, on a car when the front suspension travels the tie rods get longer or shorter throughout the arc of travel, this is called bump steer. Seems like the same principal would apply to a frame mounted brake torque arm. I vote for the swingarm mounted torque arm.
Don't some of the Kawi's mount to the frame too?
(http://p1.bikepics.com/pics/2006%5C02%5C06%5Cbikepics-516623-full.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z41/stevemcqueen007/spotters_guide_1.jpg)
Looks frame mounted to me. Couldn't find a good shot that showed the attachment, but the early 90's ZXR7 looked similar.
I see now, the caliper mount pivots and the caliper stays centered on the rotor. What will they think of next...a man on the moon? :rofl2:
Quote from: SkyFive on September 25, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
... What will they think of next...a man on the moon? :rofl2:
Metal covered wings! :lol:
Quote from: fj1289 on September 25, 2010, 07:15:09 PM
Quote from: SkyFive on September 25, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
... What will they think of next...a man on the moon? :rofl2:
Metal covered wings! :lol:
Are you referring to my Super Cub avatar? That is Sky 5, a plane I flew aerial advertising (banners) in Myrtle Beach. She weighs 950 lbs empty, 160 hp, a Borer prop and pulls like a FJ1100, literally. If you look closely you can see the tow rope running from the tail up to the wing strut along the bottom of the fuselage.
I am with "CARSICK" on this one,I also don't use the rear brake on a street bike.But I do know the effect of a linked brake.I used this system on my yz400 mx bike for a while.
http://www.oldrice.com/Preston_Petty_No_Dive.jpg (http://www.oldrice.com/Preston_Petty_No_Dive.jpg)
After installing it there was no reaction to the suspension when applying the brakes.That was when I realized that some fork dive is a good thing.The bike was hard to steer without some dive.I do use a lot of rear brake off road and I like a floating rear brake,but they are to easy to damage.
Quote from: WestOzFJ on September 24, 2010, 05:51:25 PM
It DOES matter where it is attached. It makes a HUGE difference.
If the brake reaction arm is mounted to the swing arm then the torque reaction is ultimately transferred through the suspension and results in rear wheel squat.
When the arm is mounted to the frame the 100% of the torque reaction is no longer transferred through the suspension ...
How can you say the above then give an example that's opposite below???
Quote
To demonstrate this, there was a 1970's experiment on Barry Sheen's grand prix Suzuki whereby the FRONT calipers were mounted on floating radial mounts and the torque reaction arms went vertically to mount on/under the lower triple tree. Therefore upon suspension compression the calipers rotated freely and were in effect suspended unsprung weight - one of the reasons they tried it. When heavy front braking force was applied the front of the bike didn't dive - it actually ROSE UP because as the calipers tried to rotate, the torque reaction was transferred vertically and converted to suspension movement according to the forces now at play.
You say "it actually ROSE UP because as the calipers tried to rotate, the torque reaction was transferred vertically and converted to suspension movement according to the forces now at play."
How is this NOT transferring the braking force into the suspension? Am I misunderstanding the semantics? By not transferring force to the suspension, I'm assuming that the braking force does not transfer any force directly into suspension action. It INdirectly transfers force due to weight transfer, but the braking moment torque is NOT directly coupled into suspension action.
What you describe above is a direct coupling of the braking torque moment into the chassis and it's effect on the suspension action.
Quote
So lets transpose that experiment to the rear and to demonstrate the potential, imagine a hypothetical where a true floating rear caliper that (let's say) sat in the 9 o'clock position and the reaction arm were to mount vertically upwards to the rear subframe.... The caliper would become (to some degree) unsprung mass as it's now supported and the braking force would raise the back of the bike upwards actually creating artificial mass and therefore increasing traction.
It makes a HUGE difference where it's mounted - it's all about directing that force...
Again, by mounting the torque arm on the chassis/frame, you are directly affecting suspension action. With the arm attached to the swingarm, all the forces are contained within the swingarm and there is no direct coupling of the force into the suspension (again, weight transfer is an indirect coupling).
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on September 25, 2010, 11:15:03 PM
........ by mounting the torque arm on the chassis/frame, you are directly affecting suspension action.
DavidR.
David, I think we all agree (?) that a frame mounted torque arm will affect the rear suspension, but what Oz is saying, it's in a good way.
I can visualize what Oz is talking about.
I think we all agree (?) that applying the rear brake can cause the rear end to squat. True, not by much, but it's still there.
With a bottom mounted caliper on a floating arm, when the brake is activated the torque arm applies tension (pulling force) to the frame mounts.
Because this tension line is below the axle to swing arm pivot line, this tension helps by holding the rear end up, counteracting the squat.
Yea, I can see this....
Hey David, WOTEVER!
read what I wrote and quote that, not what you've made my words into....
There's a big difference between some of the words I wrote and the ones you're throwing back at me....
Semantics or not, a dictionary is all that's required.
I'm not going to argue with you, think what you will, everyone else pretty well seems to get it....
Oz, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. There are 3 pages of information on this subject so there's quite a mixture of opinion and fact. I'm just trying to sort it out. If you want to be part of the discussion try not to instantly turn into a dickhead when you get a question.
Pat, yeah, I can picture what's going on. It was a very good description and exactly what I imagine is going on with the suspension. I can see where it would prevent potentially unwanted suspension action on either end of the bike.
It wasn't intended to be an attack, I'm just trying to clarify the concepts. I appear to be on a different page with the description of the process and what is (or is not) being "transferred through the suspension."
That description confuses me. I keep trying to picture it as what affects the suspension action, which appears to be the opposite of a force being transferred in this discussion.
We all appear to know that feeding the force from the caliper arm into the chassis will jack with the suspension. I consider a force that directly prevents the suspension from compressing or rebounding to be "jacking with the suspension."
So, in a "conventional" rear brake arrangement, why does the rear end squat when the rear brakes are applied? It's NOT because the caliper torque arm is tied to the swingarm. It's because the braking force of the rear tire is forcing the weight transfer to pivot around the swingarm axis. The front end dives when the front brakes are applied because the weight transfer is pivoting around the front contact patch.
I know brake dive is generally considered bad, but it seems to me that if you try to prevent either of these actions from happening you're kind of artifically stiffening the suspension. I would think better suspension is the better answer.
DavidR.
When I think of "jacking the suspension" I think of pinion creep on a old BMW or Guzzi, jacking up the rear end and worse, letting the rear end down when rolling off the throttle. Remember this suspension action we're talking about is in proportion to the use of the rear brake, i.e. smooth is good.
I can imagine that if you're abrupt, stabbing the rear brake, you could jack the rear end.
Hey Pat.
Okay, I'm also guilty of using confusing descriptions. Sorry about that. :-)
How about "influencing" the suspension action. We all know how bad brake peer pressure can be. I'd hate for my suspensionm to take up smoking.
I should be out riding, but it still raining. :-(
Maybe I'll go out and polish on my rear wheel some more.
(Hey, 4 more posts and I'll catch up with you)
DavidR.
Yea, we are having a bit of a early fall heat wave here in the desert, gonna be 110* today.
I'm leaving now for a ride in the mountains, up to Julian for lunch. Cheers amigo!
(oh yea, sorry about your Long Horns, those UCLA Bruins can be a pesky lot)
Damn, right to the cheap shots Pat.. that's mean!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2010, 12:00:30 PM
(oh yea, sorry about your Long Horns, those UCLA Bruins can be a pesky lot)
That's okay Pat, I've always been an OU fan myself, having been born in Oklahoma.
However, it is nice to see the Cryboys playing up to their hype for a change.
DavidR.
The attachment of the torque arm gave me no problems at all, I went with this method:
(Ignore the first 5 photos)
Click here (http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd165/Ulysses-WA/FJ1200-17/)
Bill.
Quote from: billwest on September 28, 2010, 07:59:50 PM
The attachment of the torque arm gave me no problems at all,
Bill.
Yea Bill, for the type of caliper bracket you have, the torque arm anchored to the swing arm is proper.
It's the fancy schmancy pivioting/floating GSXR caliper arms that get the torque arm anchored to the frame...
I did the same as you, anchored the torque arm to the swing arm, except my caliper hangs below the axle....
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_13_12_09_8_22_49.jpeg)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 29, 2010, 10:52:17 AM
Quote from: billwest on September 28, 2010, 07:59:50 PM
The attachment of the torque arm gave me no problems at all,
Bill.
Yea Bill, for the type of caliper bracket you have, the torque arm anchored to the swing arm is proper.
It's the fancy schmancy pivioting/floating GSXR caliper arms that get the torque arm anchored to the frame...
I did the same as you, anchored the torque arm to the swing arm, except my caliper hangs below the axle....
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_13_12_09_8_22_49.jpeg)
Geezus Pat that thing is shiny. A bloody work of art. :good2:
Cheers...Jake
Quote from: jvb_ca on September 29, 2010, 11:04:37 AM
Geezus Pat that thing is shiny. A bloody work of art. :good2:
Cheers...Jake
Thanks Jake, FJ's are beautiful bikes.....
Pat, your pics have burned out my eyes.....
Eric M
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on October 02, 2010, 03:27:05 PM
Pat, your pics have burned out my eyes.....
Eric M
Thanks Eric! Those picts were taken on a cloudy day....You should see it in the summer desert sun.
I need some sort of fancy filter on the lens of my camera. Cheers!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 02, 2010, 07:36:37 PM
Thanks Eric! Those picts were taken on a cloudy day....You should see it in the summer desert sun.
I need some sort of fancy filter on the lens of my camera. Cheers!
Just shoot it with a piece of metal screen at the front of the lens. Poor man's star filter.
I assume it will work with the new digicams, it always worked great with 35mm.
Randy T
Indy