I have seen here about fuel gauge bounce, but I have a speedometer and tachometer that bounce around. I installed a new speedometer drive and cable, but that's not it. Do these gauges also use the silicone oil to dampen their movement? Does anyone have a proper fix. Thanks again.
Your tach problem is most likely an electrical issue, possibly a ground problem. Your speedo is driven my the cable and would not be affected by electrical issues. I assume you have checked the cable and cable sleeve along with the drive at the hub. Did your bouncing problem with both begin at the same time?
I have only had it for 1500 miles. It has done it since I've owned it.
When your moving in 5th gear lift up on the shifter and see if the needles settle down.
My 85 will bounce and drop a few rpm if I dont put some pressure on it.I have not figured it out 100 % yet but I have a couple of ideas.One is the neutral switch.
If I shift gear and hold the shifter in position I run smooth and the tach wont bounce,if I shift gear and let of the shifter then I drop a few rpm and dont run smooth and the tach will bounce.At night I can see the lights dim as well,they wont dim if I keep pressure on the shifter.
For a whille I had issues starting thats when I found that holding the bike in 1st with some pressure would let her fire no pressure no fire.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 02, 2010, 08:08:52 PM
When your moving in 5th gear lift up on the shifter and see if the needles settle down.
My 85 will bounce and drop a few rpm if I dont put some pressure on it.I have not figured it out 100 % yet but I have a couple of ideas.One is the neutral switch.
If I shift gear and hold the shifter in position I run smooth and the tach wont bounce,if I shift gear and let of the shifter then I drop a few rpm and dont run smooth and the tach will bounce.At night I can see the lights dim as well,they wont dim if I keep pressure on the shifter.
For a whille I had issues starting thats when I found that holding the bike in 1st with some pressure would let her fire no pressure no fire.
From this: http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-1L9-82540-00-00.html (http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-1L9-82540-00-00.html)
it would appear that switch was used on just about every bike yamaha has made. US$15.51 can't hurt to give it a try.
Harvy
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 02, 2010, 08:08:52 PM
When your moving in 5th gear lift up on the shifter and see if the needles settle down.
My 85 will bounce and drop a few rpm if I dont put some pressure on it.I have not figured it out 100 % yet but I have a couple of ideas.One is the neutral switch.
If I shift gear and hold the shifter in position I run smooth and the tach wont bounce,if I shift gear and let of the shifter then I drop a few rpm and dont run smooth and the tach will bounce.At night I can see the lights dim as well,they wont dim if I keep pressure on the shifter.
For a whille I had issues starting thats when I found that holding the bike in 1st with some pressure would let her fire no pressure no fire.
Check your grounds.... could be using the shifter for a path from engine to frame.... NOT good!
Quote from: RichBaker on September 02, 2010, 09:25:10 PM
Check your grounds.... could be using the shifter for a path from engine to frame.... NOT good!
That is EXACTLY what's happening. I've seen bad engine ground paths cause visible sparking around the shifter pivot on the frame side.
DavidR.
Thanks a lot for the suggestions. I will check on it A.S.A.P.
Leaving tonight for Texas until 9/11. Haven't seen my FZ1 since my last trip 5/1. Needs oil change and a ride. Y'all have a nice holiday weekend.
What grounds are we talking about where are they all.Whats on the back side of the neutral switch I have not got the 3rd screw out of mine yet,does the pin in the end of the shift drum ride on the back of the switch ? I dont know where to look other than the starter or alternator/generator.
I cant think of anything electrical thats connected to the shifter linkage.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 03, 2010, 02:15:15 PM
What grounds are we talking about where are they all.Whats on the back side of the neutral switch I have not got the 3rd screw out of mine yet,does the pin in the end of the shift drum ride on the back of the switch ? I dont know where to look other than the starter or alternator/generator.
I cant think of anything electrical thats connected to the shifter linkage.
The ground from engine to frame..... The shifter is mounted on the shift shaft(engine) and pivots on a bolt in the frame, therefore providing a ground path from engine to frame...... there is a ground that bolts to the back of the engine/trans. I think it goes to the frame, it is probably open..... It WILL cause problems.
See my post detailing voltage drop testing.
Thank you I will take a look and see what I find in the a.m..I did look at your voltage drop post.I am just learning my way around the fj and electrics are harder than mechanics for me.If the negative from the battery goes to the motor then something must be going hot + and droping voltage shorting out at the shifter.Is there a ground strap going to the frame from the engine ?.I will go read the voltage drop post again ans see if i get any more out of it.
I could not get the 3rd screw out of the neutral switch should I continue and drill it out or am I wasting my time there.My foot and ankle hurt I need to fix this soon lol.
Could be the coil(s) ground going through the frame-through the shifter to the engine case-then from the engine to the negative on the battery...........
I don't think your neutral switch is the problem. Just turns the indicator light on..
I would check to make sure the connections are solid from the engine case to the battery(maybe remove and clean them)
Check for resistance in the ground cable, and maybe add a ground strap from the frame to the battery.......
couldn't hurt to add one from the frame to the engine either.......
Mostly check all your ground(s) connections...... :wacko3:
How about the speedo bounce? Mine was fine for about 2K this summer, then started bouncing after a little sprint after a Vette down the highway.
Quote from: junkyardroad on September 04, 2010, 09:10:03 PM
How about the speedo bounce? Mine was fine for about 2K this summer, then started bouncing after a little sprint after a Vette down the highway.
If you have not already...Check the speedo cable, lube it, check the speedo drive. Is it bouncing at all speeds? Or does it smooth out at certain speeds? Does it make any noise? Mine did as it going out.
Speedo jumping would be the cable,either not tight at both ends or dirty.
I didnt find anything today.I found out that I had no front turn signals so I fixed them.I had a bad connector (melted)from the generator to the battery that I cut out and fixed.How many volts should I see when im at 1100 rpm ?Volts check the same everywhere at the frame the engine and at the battery.Starts easy idles good but runs rough and almost seems to run on 3 cylinders if I dont hold the shifter up when in 5th or down when in 1st.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 04, 2010, 10:16:28 PM
Speedo jumping would be the cable,either not tight at both ends or dirty.
I didnt find anything today.I found out that I had no front turn signals so I fixed them.I had a bad connector (melted)from the generator to the battery that I cut out and fixed.How many volts should I see when im at 1100 rpm ?Volts check the same everywhere at the frame the engine and at the battery.Starts easy idles good but runs rough and almost seems to run on 3 cylinders if I dont hold the shifter up when in 5th or down when in 1st.
how does it run in 2nd.3rd and 4th ?
does the engine rev and run ok in nuetral ?
2nd and 3rd need changed but they are the same as 1st 4th and 5th it is just easier to tell in 5th because you cant shift up any more.
I have a set of gears here I need to put in but I dont have the tools yet.She revs ok in neutral but theres no load.She starts easy with a touch of the starter switch but she never used to till I started holding down the shifter in first when I start her.Now since playing with the shifter she will start all the time.Typically now I can start her with no choke and no playing with the shifter.If I shift and I dont release the shifter when I go through each gear she runs good and smooth other than 3rd which is shot.If i shift normal when I run trough the gears there is a surge where she seems to be missing.
well then it sounds like you have transmission issues that need to be addressed.
maybe some bearings that are letting the tranny shift sideways and jam things up.
Kookaloo!
Frank
2nd pops out all the way at high rpm under load but I can use it normally 3rd feels like it shifts in and out cant use it unless I am at constant low rpm.
I would like to have any needed tools on hand before pulling the motor and trans but plan on doing it soon.When she is running smooth the exhaust note sounds great just north of 4000 rpm and she runs great.
Fixed it :good2: I am not 100 % sure what it was because I unpluged and cleaned a lot of connectors I also cleaned the ground connector at the coils and I suspect that was the problem. :good2:
My tach still has a bit of a bounce to it at certain rpm but engine rpm dont drop like they were they stay constant.
Just remembered I also had a lot of play in a shifter heim joint so I zip tied it so it wouldnt move around when vibrating.I need to cut the ziptie off to see if it was my gremlin.Probably not but anything is possible.
The tachometer and speedometer on my 1986 fj bounced around when i bought the bike,The po had dropped the bike and the r/h mirror support was bent so it touched the instrument cluster.Also the instrument cover was touching the cluster on the l/h side. The cluster is mounted using rubber grommets so I think it has to be able to float a bit. I haven't had any bouncing since we bent everything back.
Bobmcc
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on September 03, 2010, 08:28:43 PM
Thank you I will take a look and see what I find in the a.m..I did look at your voltage drop post.I am just learning my way around the fj and electrics are harder than mechanics for me.If the negative from the battery goes to the motor then something must be going hot + and droping voltage shorting out at the shifter.Is there a ground strap going to the frame from the engine ?.I will go read the voltage drop post again ans see if i get any more out of it.
I could not get the 3rd screw out of the neutral switch should I continue and drill it out or am I wasting my time there.My foot and ankle hurt I need to fix this soon lol.
Been gone for the holiday.....
What I was trying to say is, there is a ground cable that has broken or been disconnected and not reconnected and the shifter is now the "path" the electrons have found to get back to the negative battery terminal.... there are several ground connections to the engine and ignition system and if one or more are not connected, the electrons will find an alternate way back. Yamaha was pretty good about including a ground wire at the coils and if it was not reconnected, it will cause this sort of problem.
Leave the neutral switch alone, it is not likely to be the cause...
Does anyone really know what is the problem with tacho?
Dont tell me something about ground or tachometer.
i have all tacho wires new and i also have new tachometer and after all my tacho is still crazy.
Dont tell me engine or coil ground,all are new.
When engine runs about 1000 rpm and then it jump about 1500 rpm goes down 1000 rpm and so on.. after 3000 rpm it seems to be okay.
Is it bossible that tacho get more pulse signal what is the real pulse?
And Thanks Of course
(http://urmasmoottori.kuvat.fi/kuvat/valmis/P1010009.jpg/_small.jpg)
Is that an FZR600 dash? Looks interesting there. If it is, that tach is known to be a bit innacurate, and is in two steps, one error under 6200 and one over, different %'s.
Look for mechanical problems (vibration going into it), damping problems (within the gauge itself), and electrical problems (dirty signal, poor grounding, etc).
Yes and yes, but it runs well, but only 1000-1500 rpm it goes crazy, original tacho have same problem.
Quote from: jykkeh on April 02, 2011, 09:51:44 AM
Yes and yes, but it runs well, but only 1000-1500 rpm it goes crazy, original tacho have same problem.
Is there any real definitive answer to idle tach bounce (or "twitch"). I experience this (only at idle and not all the time) and the tach is new, all connections/grounds perfect etc. It appears no one really has an answer once all the variables have been addressed.
Quote from: JMR on June 14, 2013, 06:59:36 AM
Is there any real definitive answer to idle tach bounce (or "twitch").
Not sure. Seems that I vaguely remember some folks have made sure that the ground, and coil connections, and coil grounds were all in good shape and this *may* have helped? It's not a bad idea anyway.
Worth a shot, with only upside.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on June 14, 2013, 07:38:59 AM
Quote from: JMR on June 14, 2013, 06:59:36 AM
Is there any real definitive answer to idle tach bounce (or "twitch").
Not sure. Seems that I vaguely remember some folks have made sure that the ground, and coil connections, and coil grounds were all in good shape and this *may* have helped? It's not a bad idea anyway.
Worth a shot, with only upside.
Dan
All those factors have been addressed Dan. I don't know if it is related to the alternator somehow secondary to the low RPM or what. To bad I cannot use the Dyna 2000 tach drive lead.
I also have a bouncing speedo, after repairing my fuel gauge, I'll be trying to fix the speedo. I already tried greasing the cable checking all mechanical parts, still bounces. Unlike the tacho which is electronic the speedo has a similar arrangement to the fuel gauge.
The following is the process I'll go through to fix the bounce (NOTE: I have not done this yet so I have no proof It'll work) -
1. remove speedo assembly(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag34/Bozo36/P1000567_zps245a220f.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Bozo36/media/P1000567_zps245a220f.jpg.html)
2. remove two screws on either side of tripmeter (http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag34/Bozo36/P1000568_zps073e5085.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Bozo36/media/P1000568_zps073e5085.jpg.html)
3. Remove tripmeter(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag34/Bozo36/P1000570_zpsbae26281.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Bozo36/media/P1000570_zpsbae26281.jpg.html)
4. Lift the plastic lid with screwdriver, using syringe inject silicone fluid till full(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag34/Bozo36/P1000571_zps7d11d3eb.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Bozo36/media/P1000571_zps7d11d3eb.jpg.html)
Silicon fluid used on Toyota thermo fans(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag34/Bozo36/IMG_3210_zps252e818a.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Bozo36/media/IMG_3210_zps252e818a.jpg.html)
If anyone is worried about this process not being tested, I'll be dealing with my speedo in the next two to three weeks and I'll let you know how it works out.
The only unknown is the viscosity of the oil, if too thick the speedo will be slow to respond etc (if I have to I'll try different grades of oil). Stay tuned - let me know if you are interested.
Quote from: Bozo on June 23, 2013, 06:55:12 AM
The only unknown is the viscosity of the oil, if too thick the speedo will be slow to respond etc (if I have to I'll try different grades of oil).
What's with all the speculation on viscosity. Just ask an auto instrument shop or find it on the net. Sounds like a very labour intensive trial and error.
Noel
Bozo
This should work also just a miniscule amount on the cogs will also help to me thinks :biggrin:
Baldy
Quote from: baldy3853 on June 23, 2013, 07:22:23 AM
Bozo
This should work also just a miniscule amount on the cogs will also help to me thinks :biggrin:
Baldy
Baldy,
I might do that as well but I will use the thicker silicone 300,000Cst I got previously.
Ribbert, I believe Dimethicone was used by others but when I used it on my fuel gauge the needle still had some movement, I tried the oil shown (and recommended by Baldy) and it is steady. So yes I could use Dimethicone on the speedo but if its still not 100% I'll vacuum the Dimethicone out and use the other oil.
I'm keeping all gauge related information here, for posterity's sake:
fjowners.wikidot.com/gauges
Quote from: Bozo on June 23, 2013, 07:58:54 AM
Quote from: baldy3853 on June 23, 2013, 07:22:23 AM
Bozo
This should work also just a miniscule amount on the cogs will also help to me thinks :biggrin:
Baldy
Baldy,
I might do that as well but I will use the thicker silicone 300,000Cst I got previously.
Ribbert, I believe Dimethicone was used by others but when I used it on my fuel gauge the needle still had some movement, I tried the oil shown (and recommended by Baldy) and it is steady. So yes I could use Dimethicone on the speedo but if its still not 100% I'll vacuum the Dimethicone out and use the other oil.
I tried the speedo on Sunday, my speeds varied from sane to insane (legal of course) I still have some bounce but no-where near to my previous setup. I did use the Dimethicone to be on the safe side but after trying this I would've preferred to use the Toyota silicone oil. The temperature I rode in was around 10/ 15 degrees C.
I'll leave the Dimethicone for now and maybe in the future I'll try the other oil. keeping in mind that the minor bounce might be due to other mechanicals (cable/ drive unit)
:good2: Glad I was able to help
Baldy
My speedo needle, as well, just completely stopped working two days ago... So now I have literally zero usefulness from my gauges, except for the digital clock--and even that is half blacked out. -_-
(I'm assuming/hoping speedo cable for my latest woe... We'll see.)
So the conclusion is that the Toyota oil is still not quite thick enough, but pretty darn good? Sure would be nice to see an in-ride video.
Anyone have any ideas about finding a factory oil viscosity number? Maybe calling a Yamaha contact or something?
I was at an instrument repairers yesterday and mentioned this while I was there, I also have a bit of speedo bounce. They keep 3 grades of oil for different applications. He was confident one of thicker ones would do the job.
Every large town probably has one of these shops. Worth a try.
Noel
If you give it a try, be sure to let us know.
Have been down these winding roads in pursuit of the bouncing speedo and tach as well. Never really got the speedo totally smoothed out but lubrication helped a bunch. As for the tach issue, sorry to say my friend, the only fix I finally came to was a new tach gauge assembly. Tough to find and a pain in ass to install. If you find another solution, you are more fortunate than I. Cheers, and Yamaha Ha Ha Ha to all
Bozo, I don't understand the step 4 picture; where is the plastic lid that one is supposed to lift? About to do this procedure soon.
Any updated recommendations on oil?
The fuel gauge also uses the same oil, correct? My fuel gauge, when I got it, was INSANE. Most people have bounce, mine would bounce all the way around to the opposite side of the resting pin at empty and mostly stay down there--unless you got really low, then if you were lucky it'd bounce around to the correct side for a while. :crazy:
Eventually it snapped its own indicator needle off. I assume it's still sitting in the back.
Will damping oil fix that? (And, of course, I need to come up with a solution for the needle...) :scratch_one-s_head:
My tach all-but-died. Occasionally shows 1.5-2 if I'm shifting or something and cruising around on the highway. During high speed runs (up to probably 7 or 8k), it might register as high as 4k for a bit. Usually just sits down and registers nothing.
Ground looks good. Plug for gauge cluster looks good, a la this post (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=844.msg14357#msg14357). Don't know what else to do for tach. Don't like the idea of just replacing it because:
A) Money.
B) If all tachs break like this eventually, someone eventually will need to figure out how to fix them or none of us will have tachs anymore... This has to be repairable, it's a very simple instrument.
(Rich Baker, you out there?)
------
On the other hand, I just replaced almost all of my dead bulbs and have a fully lit up, bouncy speedo, stained clock, SNAFU tach, and needle-less fuel gauge that I can now see clearly! :greeting:
:unknown:
Quote from: fintip on July 24, 2013, 02:36:01 AM
Bozo, I don't understand the step 4 picture; where is the plastic lid that one is supposed to lift? About to do this procedure soon.
Any updated recommendations on oil?
The fuel gauge also uses the same oil, correct? My fuel gauge, when I got it, was INSANE. Most people have bounce, mine would bounce all the way around to the opposite side of the resting pin at empty and mostly stay down there--unless you got really low, then if you were lucky it'd bounce around to the correct side for a while. :crazy:
Eventually it snapped its own indicator needle off. I assume it's still sitting in the back.
Will damping oil fix that? (And, of course, I need to come up with a solution for the needle...) :scratch_one-s_head:
My tach all-but-died. Occasionally shows 1.5-2 if I'm shifting or something and cruising around on the highway. During high speed runs (up to probably 7 or 8k), it might register as high as 4k for a bit. Usually just sits down and registers nothing.
Ground looks good. Plug for gauge cluster looks good, a la this post (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=844.msg14357#msg14357). Don't know what else to do for tach. Don't like the idea of just replacing it because:
A) Money.
B) If all tachs break like this eventually, someone eventually will need to figure out how to fix them or none of us will have tachs anymore... This has to be repairable, it's a very simple instrument.
(Rich Baker, you out there?)
------
On the other hand, I just replaced almost all of my dead bulbs and have a fully lit up, bouncy speedo, stained clock, SNAFU tach, and needle-less fuel gauge that I can now see clearly! :greeting:
:unknown:
Sorry about the delay, I thought this topic died sometime ago, The picture Step 4 shows a small container inline with the needle shaft (in front of the odometer numbers) if you look closely there is a plastic lid.
An update on my speedo - it stopped bouncing but I have a new problem, at 100kph and over it starts to read 10kph higher than it should be (my speedo was normally ok at these speeds) and when the speed is constant it drops down and reads correctly (I used a GPS to compare against)
So it appears I have another issue which might be a drive cable binding?? - suggestions?
As for the fuel gauge it works 100% (the toyota oil was used), I did have the same problem as you where the needle spun around but that was a simple fix, just push it back and once the oil is in this will not happen again.
Tacho is a seperate issue as it is electronic, never had to fix mine so maybe someone else can chime in.
So the Toyota oil was perfect for the Fuel gauge, but insufficient for the Speedo gauge?
What was the last fluid you tried for damping the speedo?
For the speedo, is it possible that the fluid is too light, and so it doesn't provide enough resistance when the cable provides a certain amount of force? Sounds weird. Odd that it goes too *high*. Cable binding, I think, would provide a number that would be too slow to keep up with speed increases, not the opposite...
...then again, I cannot fathom how the speedo works. How in god's name is some kind of damping fluid involved? In my mind this should just be a straight mechanical device, I've never heard of a problem like this. Do other vehicles use this design? It just seems crazy to me. Some kind of explanation on what is going on and the actual physical role that the damping fluid plays in the system would be great, if anyone knows... Or has a resource they can point me to.
Quote from: fintip on July 28, 2013, 09:27:48 PM
So the Toyota oil was perfect for the Fuel gauge, but insufficient for the Speedo gauge?
What was the last fluid you tried for damping the speedo?
For the speedo, is it possible that the fluid is too light, and so it doesn't provide enough resistance when the cable provides a certain amount of force? Sounds weird. Odd that it goes too *high*. Cable binding, I think, would provide a number that would be too slow to keep up with speed increases, not the opposite...
...then again, I cannot fathom how the speedo works. How in god's name is some kind of damping fluid involved? In my mind this should just be a straight mechanical device, I've never heard of a problem like this. Do other vehicles use this design? It just seems crazy to me. Some kind of explanation on what is going on and the actual physical role that the damping fluid plays in the system would be great, if anyone knows... Or has a resource they can point me to.
I used the standard Dimethicone (ebay) for the speedo but I would consider using the Toyota oil in the future.
Fluid too tight, as you stated I don't understand why the needle would go up in speed?, as you said - weird, I'll investigate more when I have the time.
The fluid actually causes a resistance on the needle shaft i.e like holding it between two fingers, this can also be similar to suspension shock which prevents the suspension from continually bouncing
I assume there is some kind of spring in the speedo, and that the cable drive pushes against this sprung force, no? So, perhaps your spring is weak, and only slowly adapts to the pressure applied by the speedo cable?
So Speedo and Fuel gauge, both show no bounce now? Rock steady?
Where did you originally read/hear about using dimethicone?
Thanks for the responses! :D
Super helpful.
Quote from: fintip on July 28, 2013, 11:50:43 PM
I assume there is some kind of spring in the speedo, and that the cable drive pushes against this sprung force, no? So, perhaps your spring is weak, and only slowly adapts to the pressure applied by the speedo cable?
So Speedo and Fuel gauge, both show no bounce now? Rock steady?
Where did you originally read/hear about using dimethicone?
Thanks for the responses! :D
Super helpful.
The speedo works on a floating magnet, as it spins faster the drum that is part of the needle shaft goes up (shows higher speed) the oil that is in the small container on the needle shaft prevents the needle bounce. The spring acts as a restriction to prevent the speed needle going straight to maximum, the spring is what they move forward or back to calibrate the speed at certain revs usually listed somewhere on the speedo frame, I have to admit I couldn't find this on my speedo but my Kawasaki does.
As I mentioned I'm not 100% happy with the speedo but it is a lot better than before, the fuel gauge is perfect
Somewhere on this forum someone mentioned Dimethicone
Since it still fits the title of the thread...
...Noticed something new about my dysfunctional tach the other day. If I am still in third when I hop on the freeway, the tach will hang out registering a little north of 4k (obviously low) for as long as I stay there (I think--at least, as long as I have ever wanted to stay in third on the highway, maybe 30 seconds or so as I burst around a few cars and then stare at the tach wondering why it's doing what it's doing).
Up to fourth, registers something lower for a while. Up to fifth, registers around 1.5-2 for a while, sllllloooooooowwwwly, gently easing down to rest at 0.
Does that make sense to anyone?
I read this thread because I also have a speedo that bounces around. My cable came loose on a trip to the east coast and the contents of said cable are somewhere in Maine. After returning home I quickly installed the cable core from my 86 that I am restoring. Oddly enough the bouncing has stopped. I think a new cable is around 15 bucks so I can say the advice to replace the cable first is the easiest way to start. If the cable is somewhat suspect then all the other work is for nought.
My cable fell out about 3 weeks ago. I replaced it; still bouncing as before.