Recently I attempted to repair a leak on my FJ1200 oil drain plug. I had heard that 14mm spark plug washer would seal it really well if the copper one was too warn to do the job. So......I proceeded to find out that my sump threads are not in the best shape when attempting to torque the drainplug. Markmartin was nice enough to already send me the drill and tap to up-size the hole, but I was wondering about one other option first. I came across some "Form-A-Thread" made by Loctite. http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Thread-Stripped-Thread-Repair/dp/B000WSEUII (http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Thread-Stripped-Thread-Repair/dp/B000WSEUII) Has anyone ever used it? Also, would it just be better to helical it? If so, can someone please tell me all the info needed. Such as: tap size needed to prep for helical. What size helical and drainplug to use. Any info would help at this point.
Again, thanks to Markmartin for lending me the tap to Up-size if I so decide to go with that option.
Quote from: Scooterbob on August 11, 2010, 11:39:23 AM
I came across some "Form-A-Thread" made by Loctite. http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Thread-Stripped-Thread-Repair/dp/B000WSEUII (http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Thread-Stripped-Thread-Repair/dp/B000WSEUII) Has anyone ever used it?
Also, would it just be better to helical it? If so, can someone please tell me all the info needed. Such as: tap size needed to prep for helical. What size helical and drainplug to use.
I have tried to use that product several times in the past with only partial success, I don't thing I would trust it to the drain plug.
I Heli-Coil oil pans all of the time. It is a 14 x 1.5mm kit that I have and it must be drilled with a 9/16" drill bit.
If you are going larger, then you will have to determine how big you are going to go and get the proper tools from there.
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy. That's exactly what I needed to know.
[/quote]
I have tried to use that product several times in the past with only partial success, I don't thing I would trust it to the drain plug.
I Heli-Coil oil pans all of the time. It is a 14 x 1.5mm kit that I have and it must be drilled with a 9/16" drill bit.
If you are going larger, then you will have to determine how big you are going to go and get the proper tools from there.
Randy - RPM
[/quote]
Dumb question. What is going to stop the helicoil from spinning all the way in eventually?
Quote from: Scooterbob on August 11, 2010, 12:19:08 PM
Dumb question. What is going to stop the helicoil from spinning all the way in eventually?
The Heli-Coil has tension on it when it is installed. There is no pressure on the threads until it is torqued and it is pulling downward.
I have never had one move once it was installed.
Randy - RPM
That's good to know. I have heard that some people put some sort of Loctite on the coil before inserting. But it sounds like that isn't necessary. Thanks again.
FYI folks, LA Mike turned us on to a alternative to Helicoils, a product called Time-Sert. He swears by them (not at them)
http://www.timesert.com/ (http://www.timesert.com/)
The trick would be finding the correct insert, just the right length of your oil pan threads, so you don't form a lip with insert inside the oil pan, which would keep you from a complete oil drain.
HTH.
Pura Vida amigos....back to the surf.
may want to try a bit of loct*te bearing retainer on the helicoil, or a good thread locker, its not disagreeing with anyone, helicoils work brilliantly if they are put in correct. if its your first go....... better to be safe? if you can get hold of an the pic its worth looking at, an xray of a thread showing stress concentrations, on a normal thread, the stress is pirmarily at the top and at the bottom of the thread and a bit in the middle. because the helicoil is basically a high tension spring, the stress shown is equal pretty much through out the length of the helicoil, forcing it deeper into the threads you have tapped, so yes they shouldnt creep. and sealed for life bearings never need grease
cheers :good2:
A Helicoil is an open thread design. If you put thread locker on it you will contaminate the threads of the drain bolt thus rendering it useless.
The TimeSert won't work because it is a solid thread insert. It will not allow all of the old oil to drain.
DavidR.
Huh? Wrong answer mi amigo.
They're used all the time for stripped oil pan threads. Again, as I said, just get them the right length.
They work extra bitchen for stripped spark plug threads in a aluminum head...(like a Miata's DAMHIK)
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on August 11, 2010, 10:30:39 PM
The TimeSert won't work because it is a solid thread insert. It will not allow all of the old oil to drain.
Our local Auto Zone has oversize drain plugs. I used one to repair Dean's first FJ years ago. The drain plug boss that is cast into the oil pan is about (its been a long time) 14mm tall. The boss has a 6mm wide opening in its top facing the rear of the pan. This opening in this boss is so deep a proper length TimeSert is going to be about 4mm long. Thats less then 3 threads engagement to handle the drain plug torque. If you were to use a longer TimeSert you wont be able to drain all the dirty oil. Best to go with a 16mm drain plug and tap the pan correctly. Go to your local BMW dealer and get a few new crush washers, and dont over torque your new plug (6 FTLB is enough). I drilled my drain plug and safety wire it so that it can't get loose.
Sooooooo, final decision is between a helical or oversize plug method. Votes as to the best?
Quote from: JCainFJ on August 12, 2010, 12:10:46 AM
Best to go with a 16mm drain plug and tap the pan correctly. Go to your local BMW dealer and get a few new crush washers, and dont over torque your new plug (6 FTLB is enough). I drilled my drain plug and safety wire it so that it can't get loose.
I did this (had to do this) last summer. Drilled out the pan and installed an oversized 16mm plug. It has worked fine so far.
What do you mean by "
drilled my drain plug and safety wire it so that it can't get loose." ?
Either will work.I have done thousands of helicoils and hundreds of time serts.A time sert is overkill here all you need is a helicoil.Drilling the hole to size is important to get good threads because of the thin wall in the pan.
Do the oversize drainplug, or you not be able to drain all the oil out during an oil change. When you remove the oil pan you will see what I mean!
Since you need to remove the oil pan to properly repair the drain plug, why not replace the pan with a new or used part and never worry about it again. I bet Randy can make you a deal on a used one as well. I wouldnt take a chance when it comes to keeping the oil where it belongs inside the block.. JMO
Eric M
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on August 12, 2010, 08:58:10 AM
Since you need to remove the oil pan to properly repair the drain plug, ..... Eric M
Properly is the key word here....unless you're a lazy like me and do it with the pan on the bike.
It's staying on the bike when I do it, no question.
Holy hell, if he did things properly, would it be stripped to begin with? Tighter is not better for everything Bob. Think an oil pan would fit in that box we got going? HO HO.
Doug
Very funny Doug! It was the previous owner that did the damage I think. If it wasn't, I'm going to blame him anyway.
"that box" has got to be huge already. Maybe I need to send a big-rig to your place to pick up everything. You're never going to use any of it, right? (hahahaha)
well you came here looking for advice and thats what I gave you. By the way JMO means "just my opinion" take it for what ya paid for it...
Eric M
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on August 12, 2010, 12:38:46 PM
well you came here looking for advice and thats what I gave you. By the way JMO means "just my opinion" take it for what ya paid for it...
Eric M
Relax boys! No need for harsh feeling over something so silly. :drinks:
Quote from: markmartin on August 12, 2010, 06:52:03 AM
What do you mean by "drilled my drain plug and safety wire it so that it can't get loose." ?
Here is an explanation of safety wire or Scandinavian racing twine! My business partner is a trainer for GE Energy, he does great safety wire.
http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html (http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html)
i was only answering the helicoil "creeping" question. and i have used bearing retainer on all my helicoils never had a prob... but different strokes for different folks. was chatting to a feelleerr last night and he brought something new to it. make it a semi blind bore. only drill and tap 7/8 of the way into the old stripped sump plug hole and that way your helicoil can only walk out agianst the bolt and not walk into your engine. at the end of the day im sure you will nut it out bob. but please..... no BFI ( brute force + ignorance) !!!! take your pan off and do it properly.... dont want to imagine you shouting obsceneties cos youve snapped the tap drilled the wrong angle slipped and fecked it..... thats my job i got the passion fingers.... :wacko2:
GruB Glouf
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on August 12, 2010, 08:58:10 AM
I bet Randy can make you a deal on a used one as well. I wouldn't take a chance when it comes to keeping the oil where it belongs inside the block.. JMO
Eric M
Bob,
Let me know if you want to go the replacement route or if you want me to send you one that has already been Heli-Coiled so you never have to worry about it again.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Kopfjaeger on August 12, 2010, 08:10:47 PM
take your pan off and do it properly.... dont want to imagine you shouting obsceneties cos youve snapped the tap drilled the wrong angle slipped and fecked it..... thats my job i got the passion fingers.... :wacko2:
GruB Glouf
I am going to attempt the repair tomorrow with the pan still on the bike. IF something goes terribly wrong, I will either weld the drain hole closed forever or get a new pan from Randy.
QuoteBob,
Let me know if you want to go the replacement route or if you want me to send you one that has already been Heli-Coiled so you never have to worry about it again.
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy. You are the first supplier that pops into my head when I need something.
I did the helicoil solution to my '85 after having stripped out the drain plug. Worked like a charm, although I was always careful when torquing the drain plug after that. The shop where I bought the helicoil told me they can be over-come without a lot of effort.
Cheers.
Dan
Quote from: JCainFJ on August 12, 2010, 06:33:59 PM
Quote from: markmartin on August 12, 2010, 06:52:03 AM
What do you mean by "drilled my drain plug and safety wire it so that it can't get loose." ?
Here is an explanation of safety wire or Scandinavian racing twine! My business partner is a trainer for GE Energy, he does great safety wire.
http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html (http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html)
Excellent, thanks--and great link--I saved it to my favorites. I'd never heard of it. Good stuff. If I may, I'd like to quantify my self descriptor of "lazy" (above post) as "pressed for time" . Maine winters are long and cold. I think I'll add 'safety wire on the sump plug' to my winter list.
Quote from: markmartin on August 12, 2010, 10:01:02 AM
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on August 12, 2010, 08:58:10 AM
Since you need to remove the oil pan to properly repair the drain plug, ..... Eric M
Properly is the key word here....unless you're a lazy like me and do it with the pan on the bike.
Quote from: Scooterbob on August 12, 2010, 01:17:16 PM
Quote from: Yamifj1200 on August 12, 2010, 12:38:46 PM
well you came here looking for advice and thats what I gave you. By the way JMO means "just my opinion" take it for what ya paid for it...
Eric M
Relax boys! No need for harsh feeling over something so silly. :drinks:
I started that... :pardon: Looks like we need ( and I could have used) an emoticon for 'I'm being a bit of a wise-ass'
I'm still learning that you are a smart-ass and knew you were messing around, but everyone else may not. Personally, I'm a big wisenheimer myself too. Cheers all. :drinks:
Excellent, thanks--and great link--I saved it to my favorites. I'd never heard of it. Good stuff. If I may, I'd like to quantify my self descriptor of "lazy" (above post) as "pressed for time" . Maine winters are long and cold. I think I'll add 'safety wire on the sump plug' to my winter list.
Mark,
These folks have a good price on safety wire pliers, the $20 pliers are fine.
http://www.skygeek.com/safety-wire-pliers.html (http://www.skygeek.com/safety-wire-pliers.html)
The cast boss on the oil pan forward of the drain plug is a good place to wire the plug to.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 11, 2010, 11:25:44 PM
They (Timeserts) work extra bitchen for stripped spark plug threads in a aluminum head...(like a Miata's DAMHIK)
Uh, yes, I'm very familiar with Timeserts for spark plug threads. My '85 has a set of them installed a few years ago, along with a nice set of shiny Stainless Steel (and UN-pitted) intake and exhaust valves.
DavidR.
I replaced mine with a just oversize tapered plug, which cuts a new thread as you carefully screw in.
I got it from C.G Automotive, 300 matchedash street south. unit C,Orillia,Ontario,L3V 4X5.
The company is on the web,excellent service and cheap as well. I seem to remember around $8 can.
incl. of shipping to the Uk. They have a catalogue order site so you can choose from a whole range of
sizes and types. Regards from Rich.
ps. a lot less hassle than muckin about with inserts. :biggrin:
Here's the link to their site.
http://www.cgenterprises.com/drain_plugs.htm (http://www.cgenterprises.com/drain_plugs.htm)
They are about 20mins north of me.
Cheers...Jake
Quote from: JCainFJ on August 13, 2010, 08:27:15 PM
Mark,
These folks have a good price on safety wire pliers, the $20 pliers are fine.
http://www.skygeek.com/safety-wire-pliers.html (http://www.skygeek.com/safety-wire-pliers.html)
The cast boss on the oil pan forward of the drain plug is a good place to wire the plug to.
Great, got it, thanks!
It is done.
I drilled and tapped it for a 16mm oversize plug. Worked great and feels strong. One question.....What torque? The book says 32 ft.lb. I think. I put it at 25, but with the cheap felt/rubber washer that it came with. It still has some small seepage around the plug for this reason. Couldn't find any "crush washers", but I did find a copper one. Any idea what I should torque it too with a copper one?
Other than that small detail, everything went flawless. The most difficult part was finding a drill to hold the 14mm bit! As far as tapping, I ended up putting a 12 pt. socket on the end of the tap and then ran it in with the ratchet.
Thanks all for the recommendations and great advice.
Quote from: Scooterbob on August 14, 2010, 09:07:06 PM
I drilled and tapped it for a 16mm oversize plug. One question.....What torque? The book says 32 ft.lb. I think. I put it at 25, but with the cheap felt/rubber washer that it came with. It still has some small seepage around the plug for this reason.
Problem solved. Found a crush washer and put 30 ft.lb. of torque to it. No more leaks! :dance2:
32ft.lb is the torque for a clean dry unlubricated steel plug in the clean dry unlubricated aluminum pan. If you torque it to that level and the plug/pan is lubricated (its the oil drain , so yes it will be lubricated) it will strip out again. I torque all of my oil drain plugs to 12ft.lb. max! The plug will not come loose when torqued to this lower level. If you don't trust 12ft.lb then drill the plug and safety wire it.
Quote from: JCainFJ on August 16, 2010, 01:13:39 PM
32ft.lb is the torque for a clean dry unlubricated steel plug in the clean dry unlubricated aluminum pan. If you torque it to that level and the plug/pan is lubricated (its the oil drain , so yes it will be lubricated) it will strip out again. I torque all of my oil drain plugs to 12ft.lb. max! The plug will not come loose when torqued to this lower level. If you don't trust 12ft.lb then drill the plug and safety wire it.
Mine was definitely clean and dry, since I just had finished draining, cleaning and inspecting the hole. I will keep that mental note for the next oil change. I'm definitely not taking it back off again until next time! :nea:
I haven't had great luck with the small Helicoils in the aluminum Miata head where all my valve cover bolts seem to be halfway stripped. I'm pretty sure my engine builder sent me a different ported head rather than porting mine, and whoever had this cylinder head before I did wasn't as careful as I've been - I never had a problem with mine before the engine build but it's a hassle now. I'll try Time-serts for these before trying to fix the exhaust manifold stud that's stripping its mount. (The header flange seals okay as-is, but if I install the turbo I'll have to fix the manifold stud or it'll leak at the exhaust gasket.) Next step is to drill & tap the next size larger.
I didn't have good luck long-term trying to solve my drain plug issue on-bike. I laid the bike over and tapped the oil pan for the next size up, but my new larger plug never sealed well. I eventually bit the bullet and ordered a new pan from Zanotti (this was before RPM Randy came along.) It wasn't super cheap (a couple dozen bucks one side or the other of $100, IIRC) and I'm sure it won't earn me the respect of our list-members from the southern hemisphere who take pride in their ability to smelt parts from raw ore in their kitchens. But it did solve the problem admirably for me. It took less time to r&r the pan than it took me to drill and tap the old one. Now, I'm leak-free - all my oil leaves the engine through the exhaust pipes like it should.
Quote from: Bill_Rockoff on August 20, 2010, 08:27:17 AM
I eventually bit the bullet and ordered a new pan from Zanotti (this was before RPM Randy came along.) It wasn't super cheap (a couple dozen bucks one side or the other of $100, IIRC) and I'm sure it won't earn me the respect of our list-members from the southern hemisphere who take pride in their ability to smelt parts from raw ore in their kitchens. But it did solve the problem admirably for me. It took less time to r&r the pan than it took me to drill and tap the old one. Now, I'm leak-free - all my oil leaves the engine through the exhaust pipes like it should.
A new pan will more than likely be in my future at some time. Just out of curiosity, what were the general steps to replacing it?
Bob, Marsh replaced his pan (or was it Klavdy's?) just prior to a WCR. As usual, Randy saved the day for Marsh.
IIRC Marsh did it with the engine still in the frame.
Remove exhaust and drain engine oil
remove oil level sensor from bottom of oil pan.
unbolt and remove oil pan
clean mating area
install new pan with new gasket.
reinstall exhaust and oil level sensor
fill with oil
ride :good2:
I would have to assume you just slid it out the side then, and didn't unbolt the lower half of the frame?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 20, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
Bob, Marsh replaced his pan (or was it Klavdy's?) just prior to a WCR. As usual, Randy saved the day for Marsh.
IIRC Marsh did it with the engine still in the frame.
Yep, Randy saved the day again. It was for Klavdy's FJ.
Here is Randy's contact info:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=69.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=69.0)
The Oil pan can be changed easily with the FJ on the center stand. Just unbolt the exhaust and the chin fairing...that's it! Oh, make sure you get a new oil pan gasket too...Randy has those in stock as well (and reccomended it to me - cuz I didn't even think of that at the time). Far easier to get a clean used oil pan from Randy then messing around with helicoils and the like.
"I haven't had great luck with the small Helicoils in the aluminum Miata head where all my valve cover bolts seem to be halfway stripped. I'm pretty sure my engine builder sent me a different ported head rather than porting mine, and whoever had this cylinder head before"
Bill, I had a similar situation a few years ago with a motorcycle head. The shop insisted it was the head I sent him untill I showed him pictures of the center punch marks I hade made on the cooling fins at the back of the head. I have always marked parts I sent out for machine work to make sure I get the same parts back... Just a thought for the future....
Eric M
You guys just kept on about the stripped oil pan and low & behold my son tells me about 30minutes ago;
"I tried to tighten the drain plug because it had a drip hanging from it, and it just turns..."
So, I just R&R'ed the pan and successfully installed my countless Heli-Coil. It took longer to get the gasket off that it did to remove and Heli-Coil it.
Now my son says; "I have never been able to get it to fell that tight before"
A Heli-Coil done properly will outlast the part(s) they were installed in...
Randy - RPM