FJowners.com

My FJ gives a nice little cloud of smoke from both mufflers when I start her after sitting for a few days. It stops smoking once the motor warms up and doesn't smoke again until the next time it sits a while before a start. Classic valve guide oil seal weep to my mind. I've replaced these before in other similar design DOHC motors (Honda CB900 and 1100F) by simply removing the cams and buckets then popping the keepers etc. Looks like this motor is easier as there are no frame tubes to get in the way over the motor. Has anyone done this? Any tips or peculiarities to be aware of? Also looking for a good source of seals, Viton preferred.

Yes, the aftermarket Viton valve seals are the best.

(http://rpmracingca.com/prodimages/large/Head%20VSS-1.jpg)

Available from RPM: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3AVSS&cat=39 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3AVSS&cat=39)

Re: Replacement. 2 ways, 1) remove head and 2) leave head on engine.
Head on engine has been done before, here's a link for info on a special tool used with the spring compressor:

https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10862.0 (https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10862.0)

....along with a write up on the method: https://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=11718.0 (https://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=11718.0)

By the time you fabricated the tool, it might be faster to pull the head, which can be done without removing the engine.

Cheers

Thanks for that. I will be ordering seals.
I have done this on many motors using the tools shown in the pic below. Once the cams and buckets are out the way a simple smack with the first tool bounces the valve spring just enough to release the keepers which get sucked out by a magnet. For reassembly the keepers are loaded into the second tool which I then press onto the spring to compress it and the keepers click into place. Air pressure via the spark plug port holds the valves closed. I can take some pics when I do the work and post them here if there is interest.

Link to tool

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-36050?seid=srese2&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Brands+ (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-36050?seid=srese2&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Brands+)|+L&utm_term=4581802398413096&utm_content=GSAPI+5dde8dc0d42c5

Quote from: swiftnick on November 07, 2022, 02:16:27 PM
My FJ gives a nice little cloud of smoke from both mufflers when I start her after sitting for a few days. It stops smoking once the motor warms up and doesn't smoke again until the next time it sits a while before a start. Classic valve guide oil seal weep to my mind. I've replaced these before in other similar design DOHC motors (Honda CB900 and 1100F) by simply removing the cams and buckets then popping the keepers etc. Looks like this motor is easier as there are no frame tubes to get in the way over the motor. Has anyone done this? Any tips or peculiarities to be aware of? Also looking for a good source of seals, Viton preferred.

Just to let you know the FJ cylinder head is a copy of those DOHC Honda heads.

Quote from: JMR on November 07, 2022, 05:17:08 PM
Just to let you know the FJ cylinder head is a copy of those DOHC Honda heads.

Uses the same shims by any chance? When I checked the clearances, they were all in spec so I didn't need to swap out any shims. However just casual observation suggested they looked very similar to the large collection of Honda shims I have on hand.

We know these Honda shims work in the FJ:
CB750, CB750C, CB750F, CB750K, CB750SC dohc (79-83)
CB900C, CB900F, CB1000C, CB1100F, CBX (all)

Thanks for the info. on the tools, I suspect they will work fine on the intake valves, but do you have enough room over the exhaust to get the tool in there and smack it with a hammer?
Regardless, yes, we would very much appreciate a report on your project. Bonus points for pictures.

Thanks again....do we call you Nick?

Pat

I have both FJ and CBX shims in my shim kit.  They are interchangeable except the range of usable shims for the CBX is consistently thicker than the FJ.  Not by much but enough than I never had a reason to "cross pollinate".

Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 07, 2022, 07:32:34 PM
We know these Honda shims work in the FJ:
CB750, CB750C, CB750F, CB750K, CB750SC dohc (79-83)
CB900C, CB900F, CB1000C, CB1100F, CBX (all)

Thanks for the info. on the tools, I suspect they will work fine on the intake valves, but do you have enough room over the exhaust to get the tool in there and smack it with a hammer?
Regardless, yes, we would very much appreciate a report on your project. Bonus points for pictures.

Thanks again....do we call you Nick?

Pat

Hey Pat,

Great news on the CB shims being the same. When I do the oil seals I will revisit the clearances and maybe tweak them a little to be 'perfect'. It's the anal engineer in me that likes things just so.

The tools will fit in very confined places, like a CB with frame tubes in the way. The black working end is a slip fit into the aluminium handle so can be placed just by itself then tapped from slightly off angle using a long thin drift (socket extension) or just pressed with a lever from the side. I have a write up somewhere for doing a CB and will see if I can find that. And yes, happy to make a new version for the FJ when I get to it.

Nick

PS I can add a further CB to the list of bikes the shims fit. That would be the CB1100R a D version of which I am lucky enough to have tucked away in my garage.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 07, 2022, 07:32:34 PM
We know these Honda shims work in the FJ:
CB750, CB750C, CB750F, CB750K, CB750SC dohc (79-83)
CB900C, CB900F, CB1000C, CB1100F, CBX (all)
Pat

Good info, thx

Certain Triumphs as well, here are some duplicates but a quick cut and paste of 25mm shim fitment.

1979 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750F 750 Super Sport
1979 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750K 750 Four
1979 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750K-LTD
1979 Honda CBX CBX
1980 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750C 750 Custom
1980 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750F 750 Super Sport
1980 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750K 750 Four
1980 Honda CB900 CB900C 900 Custom
1980 Honda CBX CBX
1981 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750C 750 Custom
1981 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750F 750 Super Sport
1981 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750K 750 Four
1981 Honda CB900 CB900C 900 Custom
1981 Honda CB900 CB900F 900 Super Sport
1981 Honda CBX CBX
1982 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750C 750 Custom
1982 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750F 750 Super Sport
1982 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750K 750 Four
1982 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750SC Nighthawk 750
1982 Honda CB900 CB900C 900 Custom
1982 Honda CB900 CB900F 900 Super Sport
1982 Honda CBX CBX
1983 Honda CB1000 CB1000C Custom
1983 Honda CB1100 CB1100F
1983 Honda CB750 DOHC CB750SC Nighthawk 750
2001 Triumph Classics Bonneville & T100
2001 Triumph Cruiser America
2002 Triumph Classics Bonneville & T100
2002 Triumph Cruiser America
2003 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2003 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2003 Triumph Cruiser America
2004 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2004 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2004 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2004 Triumph Cruiser America
2005 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2005 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2005 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2005 Triumph Cruiser America
2006 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2006 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2006 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2006 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2006 Triumph Cruiser America
2007 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2007 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2007 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2007 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2007 Triumph Cruiser America
2008 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2008 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2008 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2008 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2008 Triumph Cruiser America
2009 Triumph Classics Bonneville SE
2009 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2009 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2009 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2009 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2009 Triumph Cruiser America
2010 Triumph Classics Bonneville SE
2010 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2010 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2010 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2010 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2010 Triumph Cruiser America
2011 Triumph Classics Bonneville
2011 Triumph Classics Bonneville SE
2011 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2011 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2011 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2011 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2011 Triumph Cruiser America
2012 Triumph Classics Bonneville
2012 Triumph Classics Bonneville SE
2012 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2012 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2012 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2012 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2012 Triumph Cruiser America
2013 Triumph Classics Bonneville
2013 Triumph Classics Bonneville SE
2013 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2013 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2013 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2013 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2013 Triumph Cruiser America
2014 Triumph Classics Bonneville
2014 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2014 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2014 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2014 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2014 Triumph Cruiser America
2014 Triumph Cruiser America LT
2015 Triumph Classics Bonneville
2015 Triumph Classics Bonneville Newchurch
2015 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2015 Triumph Classics Scrambler
2015 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2015 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2015 Triumph Cruiser America
2015 Triumph Cruiser America LT
2016 Triumph Classics Bonneville T100
2016 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T120
2016 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T120 Black
2016 Triumph Classics Scrambler EFI
2016 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2016 Triumph Classics Thruxton
2016 Triumph Classics Thruxton R
2016 Triumph Cruiser America
2016 Triumph Cruiser America LT
2017 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T100
2017 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T120
2017 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T120 Black
2017 Triumph Classics Scrambler EFI
2017 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2018 Triumph Classics Bobber Black
2018 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T100
2018 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T120
2018 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Thruxton
2018 Triumph Classics Scrambler EFI
2018 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
2019 Triumph Classics Bobber Black
2019 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T100
2019 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Bonneville T120
2019 Triumph Classics Liquid Cooled Thruxton
2019 Triumph Classics Scrambler 1200 XC
2019 Triumph Classics Scrambler 1200 XE
2019 Triumph Classics Scrambler EFI
2019 Triumph Classics Speedmaster
1983 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200K
1984 Yamaha FJ1100 FJ1100L
1984 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200L
1985 Yamaha FJ1100 FJ1100N
1985 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200N
1985 Yamaha VMX1200 VMX1200N V-MAX
1986 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200S
1986 Yamaha VMX1200 VMX1200S V-MAX (Cal)
1987 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200T
1988 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200U
1989 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200W
1990 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200A
1991 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200B
1992 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200D
1993 Yamaha FJ1200 FJ1200E

So, I replaced the valve guide seals today and figured I would share my experiences. The job generally went pretty well with a couple of notable exceptions. Firstly, I hadn't planned on removing the carbs, but it seems you have to do that to get access to the cam chain tensioner. A more notable problem however was that that my collet removal tool has failed after being left in the drawer for a few years since I last used it. There is supposed to be a strong magnet inside it that sucks the collets up when the tool is used to compress the valve spring. This magnet seems to have faded away over time and no longer does anything. So, as I know how it's supposed to work, I substituted my own version which was a socket with my stick magnet slipped up inside. It wasn't nearly as effective as the proper tool with the spring-loaded taper pin and often required repeated presses to shake the collets loose and stick em to the magnet, but it worked. With both the tool and my cobbled up alternate you can either strike the end or press on it. When pressing two hands are better to get enough force and I used a length of angle iron with a hole drilled in the centre to do this (but I was also successful using just a box wrench although its tougher to push on). The angle iron was very useful on the exhaust valves as there is no access to strike. After pulling out the shim buckets I slipped a piece of card down the bore to protect it from damage. I used an O ring pick to pull out the old seals, sometimes they come out in one piece, sometimes they broke up. Very important to hold a magnet as close over the seal as you can as there is a steel spring ring and an embedded washer that can come loose and need to be collected. I pressed the new seals on with an 8mm socket, soaked the seals in oil first. The collet tool worked perfectly for reassembling again with just using pressing force. You just simply place the top retaining disc on top of the springs with the collets already loaded, then put the tool on and press down. There is a click or thunk more felt than heard as the collets seat. I used an airline through the plug hole to hold the valves closed.    

More pics.

And more

Good job and nice write up with pics.

You have the shims in upside down, just an FYI, at least the 275s in the photos.

Thanks.
Yeah I put the shims in text side up as I went along to remind me which valves I had done. As an aside, I didn't think it mattered (mechanically) which way up they are other than the text will get rubbed off.

Mechanically, it doesn't but if you have them numeral side up the cam lobe will wear the number off.

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 10:35:38 AM
Mechanically, it doesn't but if you have them numeral side up the cam lobe will wear the number off.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I always mic shims when swapping them out and never rely on the number. I have sometimes surface ground shims to get a thickness I don't have on hand. When I do that, I always make sure the ground surface is down. I've not hardness checked them to know if they are through or just case hardened.

And on a positive note, I just finished up putting everything back together and she started right up. Cloud of smoke as usual but I expected that from the oil that had leaked past the old seals as well as the oil I coated the new seals with to ease assembly. Tomorrows start should be smoke free.

Well done Nick, thanks for the write up....after all the comments are posted, would you mind if I transferred this post over to our Files section?  Saving your info. in the Files will help other folks access.

Thanks again

Pat

Quote from: swiftnick on November 17, 2022, 11:41:24 AM

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 10:35:38 AM
Mechanically, it doesn't but if you have them numeral side up the cam lobe will wear the number off.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I always mic shims when swapping them out and never rely on the number. I have sometimes surface ground shims to get a thickness I don't have on hand. When I do that, I always make sure the ground surface is down. I've not hardness checked them to know if they are through or just case hardened.

And on a positive note, I just finished up putting everything back together and she started right up. Cloud of smoke as usual but I expected that from the oil that had leaked past the old seals as well as the oil I coated the new seals with to ease assembly. Tomorrows start should be smoke free.

No worries, but not everyone owns a micrometer or even vernier calipers. This can make it a royal PITA for someone if the numbers are gone or if the shim has been ground for people without such tools. If you ever sell the bike or gift it to someone; without notes to know what goes where, it could be a hassle for someone.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 17, 2022, 01:17:50 PM
Well done Nick, thanks for the write up....after all the comments are posted, would you mind if I transferred this post over to our Files section?  Saving your info. in the Files will help other folks access.

Thanks again

Pat

Certainly Pat.

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 01:41:01 PM
vernier calipers

FYI, they cannot be the the standard run of the mill calipers. The need to measure the center area where the lobes contact. Otherwise you are measuring the flats across the edges and they don't wear.

Low cost Harbor Freight digital micrometers are great for this task.

Quote from: FJmonkey on November 17, 2022, 03:03:29 PM
Low cost Harbor Freight digital micrometers are great for this task.

They don't even need to be particularly accurate as you only need to measure the difference between the shim you take out and the one you plan to put in.

Quote from: swiftnick on November 17, 2022, 04:03:19 PM
They don't even need to be particularly accurate as you only need to measure the difference between the shim you take out and the one you plan to put in.

Yes, measuring the current gap, then checking what the proper gap should be, gets you the new shim size. And they don't have to be exact. If you need to fudge the gap, (choose between a thicker/thinner shim) go for thinner (more gap). Works just fine for most of us weekend speedsters. I was too impatient once to wait for a new shim and just dealt with a tappy valve till the next oil change.

This is a nice reference, I have mine laminated. https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16002.0

Not arguing that it is expensive or hard to do for "most" but the leopard and his missing finger comes to mind here. Some people don't have the ability or common sense to do certain things. Let alone the ability to read in 0.00197" which is the difference in standard shim sizes, if I recall off the top of my head, unless talking about the in between genuine Yamaha sizes and the gap is even smaller.

I would, however, argue some people shouldn't be working on their motorcycle, but I digress.

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 07:04:03 PM
Not arguing that it is expensive or hard to do for "most" but the leopard and his missing finger comes to mind here. Some people don't have the ability or common sense to do certain things. 

The leopard, :biggrin: he was a classic, wonder whatever happened to him.
A tip I used when changing shims and you don't have the appropriate size at hand to put straight in is to put a coin in its place while turning the engine over to check the other sizes. Not sure what coin would be appropriate in the country you live but in Australia a $1.00 coin is the exact same size as a shim and being soft won't hurt the cam lobes while turning the engine over. I managed to swap a few around doing it that way and only needed to buy three new shims.

[/quote]
This can make it a royal PITA for someone if the numbers are gone or if the shim has been ground for people without such tools. If you ever sell the bike or gift it to someone; without notes to know what goes where, it could be a hassle for someone.
[/quote]
The first time I do shims I just bite the bullet and pull them all (2 at a time) and take note of what is where.  From that point forward it is a simple painless task to replace the 1 or 2 shims that may need to be adjusted.
NOW, for a more modern engine with shim UNDER bucket design there is no such thing as painless....... :dash2:

I've done shims on 50 to 60 bikes now. The vast majority being not my own and I have no history of what's what. So, I check gap, pull the shim when adjustment is needed, mic it, go to my stash and pick one from the appropriate size up/down group, mic it (often check a few in the group as they have a tolerance that ranges about 0.0005") insert new shim. To be honest I never even look at the numbers written on them even if when they are still visible and not rubbed off.
My ST1300 has shim under bucket, yes what a PITA that is.

Quote from: Bones on November 17, 2022, 10:35:35 PM

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 07:04:03 PM
Not arguing that it is expensive or hard to do for "most" but the leopard and his missing finger comes to mind here. Some people don't have the ability or common sense to do certain things. 

The leopard, :biggrin: he was a classic, wonder whatever happened to him.

If natural selection is in proper working order, he might have been reunited with his missing finger tip.