Hey all, I'm looking for some advice on some behavior I experienced recently approaching WOT.
I largely stay away from WOT, but I figured it's towards the end of the season here in Wisconsin, so I decided to let 'er eat.
On the highway in high gear, I rolled onto the throttle as far as my wrist would allow for 4-5 seconds. At some point, I heard the RPMs jump up noticeably; It certainly seemed like engine RPM was exceeding wheel speed. I glanced down and saw something between 8-9krpm.
Did I roast my clutch? Or did I have an odd transition to secondaries? Dumb related question: CV carbs do have secondaries...right? As in a secondary circuit? Something has to accommodate higher fuel demand. I don't want to get to far off in the weeds on this last part.
How can I tell if my clutch is still healthy? I am 100% certain that it is original.
What you've described definitely sounds like a slipping clutch to me. It doesn't sound like anything else !
3 questions -
1) how many miles have you done on the engine/clutch
2) What oil type are you using - mineral, semi-synthetic, or synthetic?
3) How do you normally ride? - drag racing from traffic lights?. "Driving Miss Daisy" ?, or somewhere in the middle?
1. The bike and clutch have 32k miles
2. I use Motul synthetic 20w50, from RPM
3. I rarely if ever hammer on it. If I find myself on some empty backroads, I'll kindly roll on the throttle.
I hate to say "it's as I expected"....BUT.............When I switched to using synthetic oil in my first FJ 1200 I got exactly the symptoms you described.
The clutch slip initially happened on WFO runs at the top end of the rev's, but it gradually started lower down in the rev range the longer I left it and the more WFO runs I did. My Yamaha dealer shook his head at me and chewed me out for using synthetic oil in a FJ.
A full set of new clutch plates and a return to mineral oil solved the issue permanently for me.
I know here in the UK the FJOC have until very recently only ever recommended Mineral oil in a FJ for the exact same reason (clutch slip) and have only recently started to offer specific semi-synthetic oil, alongside the traditional mineral oil.
Interesting, I'm curious if anyone else can speak to this behavior. I trust that RPM provides good products that work well with this bike.
Actually, hang on. The Motul oil I described is an Ester based lubricant. This is some of the toughest lubricant on the planet. Not saying that you didn't experience a change in behavior after switching oil, but I would venture to guess that the brand new clutch pack played the most significant role. I am not an engineer, but technology marches on, and so it is with better lubricants.
Since I'm not going to try WOT again this season and see if I experience the same behavior, I'm more interested in the best way that I can examine my oil for abnormal clutch wear once I drain it out for the season.
In Airgrams case it is not the oil. We sell a lot of the Motul 7100. This oil is API SN/SM/SL JASO MA2 wet clutch motorcycle specific oil. Not only to motorcycle riders but also race car guys running these engines in a 1600lb race car. My father in law runs it in his Hayabusa and none of them experience clutch issues. I even know of one particular customer, don't ask me why he does this, that alternates between the Motul 7100 and conventional oil every oil change.
If you are not the original owner of the bike I would venture to say it is going to be more the bike being ridden hard.
Quote from: aigram on October 20, 2021, 04:39:11 PM
Actually, hang on. The Motul oil I described is an Ester based lubricant. This is some of the toughest lubricant on the planet. Not saying that you didn't experience a change in behavior after switching oil, but I would venture to guess that the brand new clutch pack played the most significant role. I am not an engineer, but technology marches on, and so it is with better lubricants.
Since I'm not going to try WOT again this season and see if I experience the same behavior, I'm more interested in the best way that I can examine my oil for abnormal clutch wear once I drain it out for the season.
I think you're missing my point - the FJ in question only had 6,000 miles on it when the clutch started to slip, shortly after putting in a synthetic oil for the first time. Simply draining the synthetic oil and replacing it with mineral oil didn't solve the problem and it was with a heavy heart and an empty wallet that I had to replace the clutch plates on a 7 month old bike.
My Yamaha dealer refused to replace the plates under warranty because I had gone against the makers specific instructions regarding the use of fully synthetic oil.
With the new clutch pack and mineral oil, I covered another 18,000 miles of hard riding on that bike with no further clutch problems, before selling it and I'm now at 85,000 miles on my current (owned from new) FJ 1200 which has always been run on mineral oil, without any clutch issues at all, despite many racetrack/trackday miles as well as lots of fully loaded touring.
I'm not disputing the quality of the oil you've used, I'm just saying that "being the toughest oil on the planet", this oil is almost "too good" for an FJ, in that what makes a synthetic oil so good for its intended piurpose, makes it bad for wet clutches, like the FJ has.
To provide long life between oil changes, modern synthetic oils have excellent lubrication properties, way in excess of what was available when the FJ's were made and these oils CAN and sometimes DO, because of their brilliant lubrication properties, wreak havoc with old technology wet clutches, such as the FJ has. Like I said, I'm not dismissing the oil you've used because it's not good quality, I'm more saying it's possibly too good quality.
I might hazard a guess that RPM sell the fully synthetic oil because the Legend race cars might use dry clutches, but I'll leave it to others to advise on that.
Suffice it to say that I've given you my own experiences and I know of many other FJ riders who have suffered exactly the same issues as you have described when switching to more modern "better quality" synthetic oil, in the hope that I might help you avoid similar issues in the future. :good2:
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 20, 2021, 05:18:43 PM
It is not the oil. We sell a lot of the Motul 7100 oil not only to motorcycle riders but also race car guys running these engines in a 1600lb race car. My father in law runs it in his Hayabusa and none of them experience clutch issues. I even know of one particular customer, don't ask me why he does this, that alternates between the Motul 7100 and conventional oil every oil change.
If you are not the original owner of the bike I would venture to say it is going to be more the bike being ridden hard.
That's good to hear Robert and hopefully the FJ can be run on synthetic for the future without issue - but I can't ignore my own experience and the response of the Yamaha importer when I made my warranty claim.
Regarding the Hayabusa, I too have run fully synthetic oils in my Aprilia RSV, my FZ1 and my FZS 600, all for many years, and these bikes all have wet clutches too, but the manufacturer's all recommend the use of fully synthetic oils for these bikes. I'm assuming that the clutches were designed with materials and specs to suit the synthetic oils that were around at the time of the bikes designs.
Do the race cars run the original wet clutches with the FJ engines - I would have thought they'd be using dry clutches ?
Quote from: Millietant on October 20, 2021, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 20, 2021, 05:18:43 PM
It is not the oil. We sell a lot of the Motul 7100 oil not only to motorcycle riders but also race car guys running these engines in a 1600lb race car. My father in law runs it in his Hayabusa and none of them experience clutch issues. I even know of one particular customer, don't ask me why he does this, that alternates between the Motul 7100 and conventional oil every oil change.
If you are not the original owner of the bike I would venture to say it is going to be more the bike being ridden hard.
That's good to hear Robert and hopefully the FJ can be run on synthetic for the future without issue - but I can't ignore my own experience and the response of the Yamaha importer when I made my warranty claim.
Regarding the Hayabusa, I too have run fully synthetic oils in my Aprilia RSV, my FZ1 and my FZS 600, all for many years, and these bikes all have wet clutches too, but the manufacturer's all recommend the use of fully synthetic oils for these bikes. I'm assuming that the clutches were designed with materials and specs to suit the synthetic oils that were around at the time of the bikes designs.
Sorry to say, most dealers are idiots. Motorcycle, automobile, or truck. They are always looking to get out of paying for something. Easy to say "well, looks like you used the wrong oil, we won't cover it." Could have been the original plates on that clutch plate run weren't thick enough, steels not thick enough. Who knows? Did they bother to measure them? Sounds like they didn't, they simply heard you ran synthetic and had a "lightbulb moment". Aha, we don't have to cover this since it doesn't specifically say "synthetic oil". Could it have been the oil that you used, sure. It also could have been any other number of things that, likely were not investigated once you told them you ran synthetic.
Two stories from within the last year. My brother has a 2016 Mustang GT, there are several thousands complaints that the chinsy tabs holding the front and rear bumpers simply break off. My brothers entire rear bumper flew off driving down the freeway. The dealer told him they wouldn't cover it because "The only reason it came off was; he was driving to fast." After opening up his phone and showing them the thousands of complaints and telling them, "He wasn't born yesterday." They went ahead and warrantied it. I have a 2018 Dodge Durango, at the time it had about 15,000 miles on it. I could smell a coolant leak, so I popped the radiator shroud off and found the radiator core where the plastic was crimped over was leaking. I put it back together and my wife took it to the dealer for a warranty claim. They had the car for the entire day and told her it wasn't leaking. So I went down there on my next Saturday off and asked for the service manager. He proceeded to tell me, "I had my best man on this." I laughed and I opened the hood in front of him took off the radiator fan shroud and showed him exactly where it was leaking. He apologized profusely and offered me free oil changes services for a year. I told him, "If your "best" man can't find a leak in a radiator, when my wife specifically told him the coolant was low and she could smell coolant. I wouldn't trust them to change my oil any more than the local high school auto shop."
As far as your FZ1, or Hayabusa, or whatever XYZ, etc, etc. Take the clutch out and compare it to the FJ clutch on your FZ1, which "recommends" synthetic. Most of them are going to be a cork like material just like the FJ. Makes no difference if it is in a 1986 FJ1200 or a 2021 Hayabusa it's the same material and as such you can use a "motorcycle specific" synthetic in. (I know the busa is the same as the for sure because I serviced my fathers in laws busa, and we are running busas in the roadsters now as well) Heck even the new FZ09/FJ09 motor being used in the Legends car is the same material as well.
The race cars are stock motors. It is a spec series, no changes are allowed to be made to the internals, including the clutch. Buy a new motor, bolt it in, and race. Keeps the cost of having to build expensive motors down. Last time I talked to a friend of mine that races 410 sprint cars, they are spending about 30,000 USD to build a sprint car motor. The top WoO teams are leasing motors, they are getting so expensive.
^^^^ he knows that of which he speaks^^^^^
Either the clutch was abused in an earlier life or perhaps there is some performance enhancements? It is possible to overwhelm a stock FJ clutch. The cheap fix for this is to double up the diaphragm spring. Don't worry, if you do this you'll develop a manly left hand grip! :lol:
Another thought, the previous owner used car spec oil that contaminated the friction discs?
Agreed - I'm only just wondering why a 1600 lb race car can use (and presumably abuse) a stock FJ clutch, without it destroying itself. I'm genuinely interested, because that should mean you have to be an absolute idiot to trash a FJ clutch.
I've never been "gentle" with my FJ, but I don't believe I've ever "abused" it either (I've never done drag race style starts) and tried never to exceed the red line, but I have "used the performance available" many times on track, over 35 years on FJ's and a never had an issue except when I used fully synthetic oil in my relatively new 1TX. Chance, or bad luck/bad clutch it may be, but it's my experience.
Robert's experience is a new dimension to me. Regarding the dealer, yes I realised they are a bunch of cowboys, which is why I haven't used one since 1992, for that very reason, except for the forest services on my subsequent new bikes.
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 20, 2021, 05:31:39 PM
Sorry to say, most dealers are idiots. Motorcycle, automobile, or truck. They are always looking to get out of paying for something......I wouldn't trust them to change my oil.
Dealers don't pay for anything on warranty claims, they are paid an hourly rate by the manufacturer, usually a lower rate than the customer pays but charge out predetermined "standard" times which are longer and the manufacturer covers the cost of parts, it's good work for them.
When a fault in a vehicle becomes widespread, the cause is officially determined by the manufacturer and the dealer just tows the company line, car makers do however have a long history of starting out by trying to blame the operator, such as with your brother's car.
As for not finding the water leak in your car Robert, it's not unusual to have difficulty replicating faults on a vehicle in the workshop that might only show up when being driven or at certain speeds or when up to temp or when trying to decipher the mechanically challenged owners description of the problem or whatever.
Admittedly, dealership workshops don't produce very good mechanics and it's been my experience that the guys who work in them are a product of that environment. It's not really their fault, it's a lack of learning opportunity.
Robert, you run an automotive repair business, it's a fact of life that there will have been dissatisfied customers over the years, that's the nature of that type of business and it's customers. Imagine if I were to express a similar opinion to yours about one of the forum experts over something similar??
Dumping on mechanics has been a staple of this forum for as long as I've been here, everyone enjoys the retelling of the time they were smarter than the mechanic.
Mercedes Benz-Toyota Dealership Service Manager (20 mechanic workshop)
Honda (motorcycle) dealership manager
Holden (Chev) - Honda motorcycle dealership apprentice/mechanic
Frustatingly, life long dealership customer (new vehicles)
My restraint in not joining this discussion is holding up as well as my clutch. :lol:
Noel
Quote from: Millietant on October 20, 2021, 05:25:53 PM
That's good to hear Robert and hopefully the FJ can be run on synthetic for the future without issue.
Dean, I'd be keen for you to try this on your next oil change and report back.
Noel
Quote from: Millietant on October 21, 2021, 08:41:52 AM
Agreed - I'm only just wondering why a 1600 lb race car can use (and presumably abuse) a stock FJ clutch, without it destroying itself. I'm genuinely interested, because that should mean you have to be an absolute idiot to trash a FJ clutch.
We are allowed to double spring or put Barnett in them. We run double springs in our cars just like in our bikes. All other performance enhancements are illegal. The cylinder head, pistons, transmission, cams, crank, ignition timing, etc. must remain stock.
We do absolutely thrash the transmissions. We shift close to 300 times in a 40 minute race. We have around 2.5 hours of track time a weekend between usually two races, practice and qualifying. Never have had any clutch issues, unless, someone just simply doesn't know how to get the car going and or leaves their foot on the clutch while shifting and revving it up.
We have more people exploding clutch baskets by missing shifts than we do clutch problems.
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2021, 08:59:04 AM
As for not finding the water leak in your car Robert, it's not unusual to have difficulty replicating faults on a vehicle in the workshop that might only show up when being driven or at certain speeds or when up to temp or when trying to decipher the mechanically challenged owners description of the problem or whatever.
The leak on my car could have easily been found with even the slightest attempt. The joint between the aluminum and plastic on the radiator was covered, as well as the plastic radiator end cap, in dried bright pink coolant.
Admittedly, dealership workshops don't produce very good mechanics and it's been my experience that the guys who work in them are a product of that environment. It's not really their fault, it's a lack of learning opportunity.
Agreed. Especially over here, there are no mechanic apprenticeships or anything of that nature. If there are they are far and few between.
Robert, you run an automotive repair business, it's a fact of life that there will have been dissatisfied customers over the years, that's the nature of that type of business and it's customers. Imagine if I were to express a similar opinion to yours about one of the forum experts over something similar??
While I do agree, you can not please everyone. I would hope it wouldn't be from a lack of simple effort, as pointed to above. Or downright dishonesty as in the case of the Ford dealership with the Mustang.
Dumping on mechanics has been a staple of this forum for as long as I've been here, everyone enjoys the retelling of the time they were smarter than the mechanic.
Not dumping on "all" mechanics. Hell I am not even dumping on inexperienced mechanics, if they ask questions and learn. I am, more so dumping on lazy mechanics, dealers, really anyone who tries to pass the buck at the first chance without doing any leg work.
I was also not saying I was smarter than the dealer, in the case of my car. I was simply pointing out, a basic visual inspection, performed by Ray Charles, likely would have been more helpful than this particular dealer. Be it by pure laziness, lack of experience, or simply not having working eyes. Yes, things get overlooked. Buutttttt.... when someone brings a vehicle in, that smells like leaking coolant, has low coolant, and if just the smallest bit of effort was put forth you could have visually seen the coolant leak. That to me is idiocy. If you coolant, be it wet or dry, coming out of the overflow on these new sealed car systems, it didn't just disappear. It is either going into the engine or leaking somewhere.
Thanks for the shared wisdom and experience.
I can say with absolute confidence that this particular FJ has seen an abuse-free life, and that the clutch is original. I have been running the Motul product that RPM sells for 4 seasons.
I'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season. This was the one and only time this year that I got close to WOT, and I've never experienced the behavior that I described any other time.
Going back to the oiil thing. :Facepalm: I've been running Rotella t6 in all of my bikes. Mostly because I have to put 31/2 gallons in my diesel. And I always have some around. Plus it's always available if you're away from home. And need more. That includes the 1350 114 ftlbs 167hp. (After break-in). I do have Barnett springs and plate. And double diaphragm springs on my 89 beater bike. I think good spring pressure is important for the torque of the fj motor. Gotta love that rollon power...
Back to the regularly scheduled program. I would pop the clutch cover off and look at the steels and frictions. The slip will need to be addressed any ways. You can do a few things to address this.
If the steels/frictions are in order still.
1) Change the spring. This should get you years of service before having to replace again.
2) Add a second spring to the original spring. This will add clutch lever pull but you should never have another clutch slippage issue unless it is self inflicted by burning up the clutch.
3) Install a Barnett coil over conversion or something similar. We have new Barnett and some used ones out of the race cars.
4) You can do this for either of the above. remove the inner most narrow disc and anti chatter springs and install a wider disc back there. This will add a bit more friction surface area which will decrease the likelihood of slippage.
To me it sounds like your clutch is worn it can wear in many ways and then it will slip under power.Measure the fiberplates thickness and metal plates and spring for warping or if they are blacked.
Took some picks from the manual how to inspect the clutch
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 21, 2021, 10:22:43 AM
Quote from: Millietant on October 21, 2021, 08:41:52 AM
Agreed - I'm only just wondering why a 1600 lb race car can use (and presumably abuse) a stock FJ clutch, without it destroying itself. I'm genuinely interested, because that should mean you have to be an absolute idiot to trash a FJ clutch.
We are allowed to double spring or put Barnett in them. We run double springs in our cars just like in our bikes. All other performance enhancements are illegal. The cylinder head, pistons, transmission, cams, crank, ignition timing, etc. must remain stock.
We do absolutely thrash the transmissions. We shift close to 300 times in a 40 minute race. We have around 2.5 hours of track time a weekend between usually two races, practice and qualifying. Never have had any clutch issues, unless, someone just simply doesn't know how to get the car going and or leaves their foot on the clutch while shifting and revving it up.
We have more people exploding clutch baskets by missing shifts than we do clutch problems.
Robert - are the upshifts done full throttle using the rev-limiter as a shift kill? I can't believe the level of abuse the transmission - hell the whole engine - takes in the cars. Seeing first gear with all the teeth sheared off was the worst thing I've seen on any "motorcycle" transmission in any use!
If we are side by side with someone and actually trying to save thousands of a second. Yea, we never breath the throttle and blip the clutch to the rev limiter on upshift. If we have some space, we lift off the throttle and shift. The fast guys never use the clutch on downshift, they blip the throttle.
Quote from: giantkiller on October 21, 2021, 11:44:20 AM
I think good spring pressure is important for the torque of the fj motor.
Yep, Dan nailed it..... :good:
If you are using an oil that's safe for wet clutches, it doesn't matter if it's full or semi synthetic or mineral.
It's not the fiber plates, it's not the steels......it's the spring.
I have a big engine, lots of torque, on Red Line ester stock synthetic (wet clutch safe) and it works fine.
Reason? I have a Barnett spring clutch plate with 82lb green springs.
On our FJ's....it's all about those weak ass diaphragm clutch springs....
BTW Where is Leon?
If he were here, he would remind us, "You will never find your kookaloo with a shitty clutch".
Quote from: aigram on October 21, 2021, 11:32:35 AM
I'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season.
A forensic inspection of the engine oil won't reveal anything of value nor help the diagnostic process in this case. Many things can be identified from used oil but clutch issues aren't one of them.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2021, 05:06:59 PMQuote from: aigram on October 21, 2021, 11:32:35 AMI'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season.
A forensic inspection of the engine oil won't reveal anything of value nor help the diagnostic process in this case. Many things can be identified from used oil but clutch issues aren't one of them.
Noel
Ribbert,
I agree. Unless you find bits of clutch fibers in the drain oil, you won't learn much from the old oil.
I'd say change the oil with the right motorcycle-specific oil, and see how that goes.
I would not go this far yet, but if you were to dis-assemble the clutch plates from the housing, there is a spec in the FSM for the plate thicknesses, and a total thickness spec for the entire pack. I do not have a copy of the FSM, but somebody here will know these specs.
If the problem was mine, I go with the right oil (maybe twice), and maybe a second clutch spring added, to help the old one.
As the previous owner of a very strong clutch, I angled the clutch lever out enough that I could put my straight arm and hand onto the hand grip
and clutch lever. When the clutch hand got too tired, I would pull the clutch by hooking fingers around the lever, and leaning back with a straight arm/hand to pull the clutch. I only did that to get home, after the clutch hand was done for the day.
Quote from: red on October 21, 2021, 06:51:26 PM
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2021, 05:06:59 PMQuote from: aigram on October 21, 2021, 11:32:35 AMI'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season.
A forensic inspection of the engine oil won't reveal anything of value nor help the diagnostic process in this case. Many things can be identified from used oil but clutch issues aren't one of them.
Noel
Ribbert,
I agree. Unless you find bits of clutch fibers in the drain oil, you won't learn much from the old oil.
I'd say change the oil with the right motorcycle-specific oil, and see how that goes.
I would not go this far yet, but if you were to dis-assemble the clutch plates from the housing, there is a spec in the FSM for the plate thicknesses, and a total thickness spec for the entire pack. I do not have a copy of the FSM, but somebody here will know these specs.
If the problem was mine, I go with the right oil (maybe twice), and maybe a second clutch spring added, to help the old one.
As the previous owner of a very strong clutch, I angled the clutch lever out enough that I could put my straight arm and hand onto the hand grip and clutch lever. When the clutch hand got too tired, I would pull the clutch by hooking fingers around the lever, and leaning back with a straight arm/hand to pull the clutch. I only did that to get home, after the clutch hand was done for the day.
I'm still going with, not the oil. He said,
"I have been running the Motul product that RPM sells for 4 seasons." So he has ran the oil for four years, if, I am reading that correctly. (could be using the actual amount of climate seasons in a year) Either way, one year of riding or four, all with the same oil. Abracadabra, all of a sudden it's the oil. :dash2:
If you are going to install a second clutch spring you are already 85% of the way to having the the clutch plates out.... there is literally no more bolts to remove at this point. Inspect your steels and fibers, they are simple to check as Rolf posted.
He might try to catch himself on fire so he has a working low fuel level light but he is thorough in what he does. :lol:
Robert wrote
He might try to catch himself on fire so he has a working low fuel level light but he is thorough in what he does. :lol:
[/quote]
If i catch on fire i think i can put the flames out with increased kookalaao speed ,but that has to tested :biggrin:
When im out riding i always carry a flat surface plate and tools in my backpack so that if i notise a tiny sign of clutchslip i stop and inspect the clutch
Quote from: red on October 21, 2021, 06:51:26 PM
As the previous owner of a very strong clutch, I angled the clutch lever out enough that I could put my straight arm and hand onto the hand grip and clutch lever. When the clutch hand got too tired, I would pull the clutch by hooking fingers around the lever, and leaning back with a straight arm/hand to pull the clutch. I only did that to get home, after the clutch hand was done for the day.
Haha, you made me laugh and brought back some wonderful memories with that Red. I grew up on big British bikes with cable operated coil spring clutches and poorly designed leverage, I can remember doing that very thing with the pull using the entire upper body. I can also remember sitting by the fire at night making my own fibre plates, cutting out cork inserts and sticking them on, and making keys for the tapered clutch hub (if a big single backfired when starting it would shear the key off)
These days, a big ride in the twisties might see somewhere around 7000 two finger gear changes in a day without a hint of fatigue. Because of the ease of doing so, I use the gearbox more than the rev range in those conditions.
Now, when technology has blessed us with bikes with wonderful light controls, people are going out of their way and spending money to make them heavy again. Plenty of members who have even fitted a second clutch spring or Barnett coil unit just for the hell of it, go figure!
Noel
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 21, 2021, 10:53:16 AM
.....Agreed. Especially over here, there are no mechanic apprenticeships or anything of that nature.....
Wow Robert, you may not realise the significance of what you said. A difference in requirements for trade qualifications between the two countries had occurred to me many times over the years and would explain (but not excuse) a lot.
Noel
Unfortunately, more trade classes, welding,wood working, automotive, etc. are even being dropped from school selective curriculum. We have colleges like universal technical institute. More if an expensive joke really. I had a friend go to UTI out of high school. They had a "recruiter" come in to our automotive class and he got suckered in. All said and done he was $40,000 in debt, didn't learn much more than he had already known from high school automotive. After his graduation it took almost a year to get hired. He finally got a job at a Chevrolet dealership and worked there for years for $14 an hour. Now he works at a winery. Moving boxes and making $35 an hour.
We have apprenticeships for electrical, welding, iron worker, but for whatever reason automotive apprenticeships aren't really a thing.
Mike Rowe has a very good listen about college vs trade schools here in the states. In short there are millions of kids going to college getting degrees and fighting for a minimal number of jobs. On the other hand there are millions of blue collar labor jobs with a minimal number of people going to trade school, doing apprenticeships, or anything of that nature.
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 22, 2021, 09:18:19 AM
Unfortunately, more trade classes, welding,wood working, automotive, etc. are even being dropped from school selective curriculum. We have colleges like universal technical institute. More if an expensive joke really. I had a friend go to UTI out of high school. They had a "recruiter" come in to our automotive class and he got suckered in. All said and done he was $40,000 in debt, didn't learn much more than he had already known from high school automotive. After his graduation it took almost a year to get hired. He finally got a job at a Chevrolet dealership and worked there for years for $14 an hour. Now he works at a winery. Moving boxes and making $35 an hour.
We have apprenticeships for electrical, welding, iron worker, but for whatever reason automotive apprenticeships aren't really a thing.
Mike Rowe has a very good listen about college vs trade schools here in the states. In short there are millions of kids going to college getting degrees and fighting for a minimal number of jobs. On the other hand there are millions of blue collar labor jobs with a minimal number of people going to trade school, doing apprenticeships, or anything of that nature.
I'd guess with modern cars (I think it's the same with you guys in the uSA, but not sure), most servicing is an oil and filters change, a few standard parts replacement and then a lap-top check.
Diagnosing a problem in a dealership these days is all about plugging a diagnostics too into a connector and reading off a fault code, looking up what that relates to and replacing a part. With the prevalence of automatic transmissions in the US, it wouldn't surprise me if some "mechanics" had never had to deal with a clutch, let alone know how to check one out, or even remove it and even fewer will have seen a carburettor, let alone a bank of 4 of them - over here, most of the smaller front wheel drive cars need to have the engines unbolted and lifted, or jacked up in the chassis to get the clutch housing off to get at the clutch plate. Simply replacing a $50 clutch plate can cost $800 in dealership charges and many otherwise perfect, older, high mileage cars are sold for pennies to "scrap" dealers with lifts and hoists, who put a new plate/thrust bearing in and then sell for $500-600 the car they've just paid $50 for.
Modern "Mechanics" are called "technicians" and are nothing like those of old and have a totally different set of skills, unfortunately
Same over here, /tires/tire rotations, oil changes, and plugging in laptops/computers.
Motorcycle dealers often won't touch FJs here. We are getting more and more calls/emails about how people took their FJ to the Yamaha dealer and they won't work on it.
Most definitely true on the transmissions over here. It is getting harder and harder to buy a true manual. Hell, I think the new Corvette doesn't even have a true manual option.
I don't have any problems even with Barnett and extra diaphragm. I have shorty levers on most of my bikes. I have more of a problem with my right throttle hand. Lol.
Quote from: giantkiller on October 23, 2021, 12:38:17 AM
I don't have any problems even with Barnett and extra diaphragm. I have shorty levers on most of my bikes.
Dan, I'm not surprised, look at the size of you. You could probably bend down and operate the pushrod with your finger. :lol:
(http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18350.0;attach=11853;image)
For those that don't know, that is Dan to the left of the photoNoel
That's what I used to look like now I'm just a fat old man. Lol
Quote from: RPM - Robert on October 21, 2021, 11:49:26 AM
Back to the regularly scheduled program. I would pop the clutch cover off and look at the steels and frictions. The slip will need to be addressed any ways. You can do a few things to address this.
If the steels/frictions are in order still.
1) Change the spring. This should get you years of service before having to replace again.
2) Add a second spring to the original spring. This will add clutch lever pull but you should never have another clutch slippage issue unless it is self inflicted by burning up the clutch.
3) Install a Barnett coil over conversion or something similar. We have new Barnett and some used ones out of the race cars.
4) You can do this for either of the above. remove the inner most narrow disc and anti chatter springs and install a wider disc back there. This will add a bit more friction surface area which will decrease the likelihood of slippage.
Thanks Robert. Are you thinking that from what I described, I did observe clutch slippage at high RPM, rather than some odd carb transition behavior?
Slippage at high RPM while trying to go wide open, would point to some sort of slippage. If you went wide open and had a carb problem, it would be more likely the bike would stall out. It's not a two stroke where it takes off once it's "up in the pipe"
Thanks Robert. Would this kind of behavior quickly transfer a lot of heat into the clutch that it could not normally dissipate? Is it likely now time to replace the clutch during the offseason?
Not likely to have instantly ruined/overheated the clutch. However, from the problem you are describing either the plates or the spring is worn/fatigued enough to let the clutch slip. So as posted
1) Change the spring. This should get you years of service before having to replace again.
2) Add a second spring to the original spring. This will add clutch lever pull but you should never have another clutch slippage issue unless it is self inflicted by burning up the clutch.
3) Install a Barnett coil over conversion or something similar. We have new Barnett and some used ones out of the race cars.
4) You can do this for either of the above. remove the inner most narrow disc and anti chatter springs and install a wider disc back there. This will add a bit more friction surface area which will decrease the likelihood of slippage.
5) Should add check and replace discs as needed.
You will want to measure the spring and fibers and check steels as Rolf posted. The clutch is a wear item, just like tires and oil, they need to be serviced/replaced every so often. This can vary for time between services based on many things, riding style, lack/proficiency of using the clutch to stop and go, etc., etc. 32k miles seems a little low but again it can vary. I know we rebuilt Ramos' motor a couple years ago. It now has over 100k on it, he swapped motors from wrecked bike to new bike, and it still shows no symptoms, but he also runs a double clutch spring, I believe.
Quote from: aigram on October 28, 2021, 12:56:17 PM
Thanks Robert. Would this kind of behavior quickly transfer a lot of heat into the clutch that it could not normally dissipate? Is it likely now time to replace the clutch during the offseason?
Clutches usually get toasted by repeated abuse/excessive slipping when pulling away from a standstill (like doing lots of drag race style starts, or lots of clutch-up wheelies). Once you're on the move, there's little you can do (but not nothing) to damage your clutch, unless you constantly hold and slip the clutch while riding.
Once the clutch plates are damaged/worn by this type of activity, they start to slip when the engine/transmission is under the greatest load - ie WOT at high revs, or when pulling quickly away from a standstill.
Once the damage is done, the slipping will only get worse with time and as Robert says, a clutch overhaul is the only solution.