I have read some reports that gravity feed bikes don't like a inline fuelfilter that can lead to fuel starvation but i did a test with taking the inner brass material out of a filterhousing and stuffed it 3 centimeters innside a fuelhose and clamped it with hoseclamp .I tested the fuelflow and it flows very easy so i think i will try this. Anyone tested this before ??
A fresh filter will flow better than one with some service on it. The issue of starvation is a factor of how clogged the filter is, the amount of fuel in the tank pushing it down and the amount your right hand/wrist is twisting the throttle. The ability to remove the filter in the field should be considered to avoid limping home slowly when the filter is clogged.
Quote from: Old Rider on November 02, 2020, 02:06:05 PMI have read some reports that gravity feed bikes don't like a inline fuelfilter that can lead to fuel starvation but i did a test with taking the inner brass material out of a filterhousing and stuffed it 3 centimeters innside a fuelhose and clamped it with hoseclamp .I tested the fuelflow and it flows very easy so i think i will try this. Anyone tested this before ?
Old Rider,
I don't doubt that a new filter element, even paper, will flow nicely. After some use, though, it may get somewhat clogged, especially with only gravity feed to push fuel through it. OTOH, I do have doubts about the wisdom of putting any filter element inside a black hose, though. I would want to see if/when the filter element is getting dirty. To that end, I would want a filter that has a water-clear glass enclosure, and the inlet fuel on the outside of the filter element. Since the fuel flow is only gravity-powered, I could also see using a Y-pipe in the fuel line and running two such filters in parallel, so to double the area of the filtering element(s). The glass filters may have a nylon or metal screen as the filter element, making them resistant to clogging and both cleanable or rebuild-able. HTH.
https://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT2369.htm (https://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT2369.htm)
.
Be sure to do the time/volume comparison with low head pressure (less than 1/4 tank)
I think you'll be ok, but who knows?
Not sure that brass screen is going to pick up any debris that the petcock screen won't already trap.
We know paper filters are a no go....
Quote from: FJmonkey on November 02, 2020, 03:10:49 PM
A fresh filter will flow better than one with some service on it. The issue of starvation is a factor of how clogged the filter is, the amount of fuel in the tank pushing it down and the amount your right hand/wrist is twisting the throttle. The ability to remove the filter in the field should be considered to avoid limping home slowly when the filter is clogged.
Good point!
To remove the filter in the field i will have to loosen the hoseclamp and carry extra filter with me or just have a pre-made hose with a filter in i my luggage.
Quote from: red on November 02, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
I don't doubt that a new filter element, even paper, will flow nicely. After some use, though, it may get somewhat clogged, especially with only gravity feed to push fuel through it. OTOH, I do have doubts about the wisdom of putting any filter element inside a black hose, though. I would want to see if/when the filter element is getting dirty. To that end, I would want a filter that has a water-clear glass enclosure, and the inlet fuel on the outside of the filter element. Since the fuel flow is only gravity-powered, I could also see using a Y-pipe in the fuel line and running two such filters in parallel, so to double the area of the filtering element(s). The glass filters may have a nylon or metal screen as the filter element, making them resistant to clogging and both cleanable or rebuild-able. HTH.
https://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT2369.htm (https://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT2369.htm)
.
Thanks for the link to the filter it looks great but i think there might be problems because of the size 3.25" not sure where on the line to fit it without kinking the hose or breaking it when tank is mounted.
I have been thinking of using 2 brass filter inserts in the 2 hoses going from the Y pipe but that will make it difficult to remove the filters in the field.
And maybe 2 filters will double the restriction of fuel flow.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 02, 2020, 05:53:04 PM
Be sure to do the time/volume comparison with low head pressure (less than 1/4 tank)
I think you'll be ok, but who knows?
Not sure that brass screen is going to pick up any debris that the petcock screen won't already trap.
We know paper filters are a no go....
So far i have just compared the flow by pouring half a litre painters alcohol thru the test hose and into a bowl and compared with and without filter placed in the hose and there is very little difference in time .The filter innside the tank is okay .The reason i want another filter is that when i put the bike away for the winter i drained the fuel by attaching a long fuelhose on the petcock and putting vacuum on the vacuumhose. when the gastank was almost empty i drained into a couple of clear pepsimax bottles.Then i discovered some particles in the drained fuel it looked like sugar or clear pearls and formed in the bottom of the plastic bottle the amount was about 1 tea spoon.
I then drained the carb bowls (I have small fuelhoses attached on the drainscrews on the carbbowls) drained those into a half litre pepsimax bottle.
There was not much particles in that fuel but a little so the fuelscreen inside the tank is filtering out most of the particles.
i have now pulled the carbs and they looked clean innside .I did clean the carbs anyway.
I wonder if the small particles is some kind of fueladditive and nothing to worry about.??
I forgot to mention that the fuel hose and brass insert on the pics is not the one I'm going to use i will use 9,5mm hose and try to find a brassinsert that has bigger diameter.
Quote from: Old Rider on November 03, 2020, 01:58:01 AM
Quote from: red on November 02, 2020, 03:51:07 PMSince the fuel flow is only gravity-powered, I could also see using a Y-pipe in the fuel line and running two such filters in parallel, so to double the area of the filtering element(s). The glass filters may have a nylon or metal screen as the filter element, making them resistant to clogging and both cleanable or rebuild-able. HTH.
https://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT2369.htm (https://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT2369.htm)
Thanks for the link to the filter it looks great but i think there might be problems because of the size 3.25" not sure where on the line to fit it without kinking the hose or breaking it when tank is mounted. I have been thinking of using 2 brass filter inserts in the 2 hoses going from the Y pipe but that will make it difficult to remove the filters in the field.
And maybe 2 filters will double the restriction of fuel flow.
Old Rider,
The link I gave was only an illustration of my idea, not a final answer. I'm sure that you can find "similar" units that will fit the bill.
Generally, more filter area will mean less flow restriction, especially over time. The small metal filter element inside a hose would have a
very small filter area, and it will become clogged much sooner as a result. The glass-body fuel filters will be easy to inspect, and even if you get some minor clogging, mechanical tapping on those filters may get you enough fuel flow to make it home, without a field repair.
The
best answer for use of a fuel filter is to use an add-on fuel pump with it. Minor carb changes would be needed then, but no serious rework. RPM can give you good advice on adding a fuel pump and fuel filter to the gravity-fed FJs.
.
And now i found this filter on a FJ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VvnXuv16Yk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VvnXuv16Yk)
Today i drove to a shop that have fuel hoses in SAE 30J R9 i wanted to buy 1 meter and replace the fuel lines that was until i heard the price
70 USD !!! :shok:
Instead i bought 1 meter of R7 hose that i have used before. I wanted the R9 quality because i read it is stiffer and can hold up to ethanol better
not sure if the R9 is needed the R7 i have used now for a year seems okay.
Gday,
I discussed this sort of thing a few years back, even videoing a test:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0VvnXuv16Yk
I found that a filter in no way restricts fuel flow. However, if you are talking huge flows, several litres a minute, then yeah, a filter will restrict, for most riders though, I would be amazed if a rider suffered fuel starvation from a filter... Poorly placed fuel line? That could starve an engine. I've been riding 30 years, my bikes only broke down from poor maintenance.
I know a guy who races old superbikes, always uses filters, flat track racing, still uses filters.
Just my thoughts...
Gareth
Quote from: mr blackstock on November 06, 2020, 06:45:31 AM
Gday,
I discussed this sort of thing a few years back, even videoing a test:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0VvnXuv16Yk
I found that a filter in no way restricts fuel flow. However, if you are talking huge flows, several litres a minute, then yeah, a filter will restrict, for most riders though, I would be amazed if a rider suffered fuel starvation from a filter... Poorly placed fuel line? That could starve an engine. I've been riding 30 years, my bikes only broke down from poor maintenance.
I know a guy who races old superbikes, always uses filters, flat track racing, still uses filters.
Just my thoughts...
Gareth
Hi Gareth i knew i had seen that nick name before here on the forum its good to know it works so i will try to find that inline filter. :i_am_so_happy:
G'day,
Bear in mind that I had to search a few bike shops to get the slimist in-line filter I could find. The usual plastic ones are so fat that it can crimp your fuel line in the tight space afforded by the dent in the top of the airbox. I found one in a race shop, same diameter as the fuel hose..
Good luck, Gareth
Update: Mars 2021
Here is my latest test making a gravity inline fuelfilter . i decided not too use the filter pictured in start of this tread because it was so small .so i have found another type of insert that is larger and fits snug into a 10 millimeter hose.
since it has to be inserted about 30 millimeter into the hose because of the petcook tap it is difficult to pull it out for cleaning ,but made a steelwire run thru it so i can
grab the wire and pull it out.
I don't think this filter has so good filtration as a paper based filter, but it will be better than no filter.On the gravity feed system i don't think its possible to use
any type of paperbased filter anyway.Yesterday was my first ride after the winter and i filled the gastank with only 4 litre of gas so the fuelpressure is low and took off.
Had no signs of fuelstarvation. The trip lasted only for about 20 miles because of cold weather only 2 degree Celsius,but that is enough to test if it was any problems.
Also i got to see how the new carburetor diaphragm worked and it was no problems with them. Bike was quick and had no hesitation or uneven /jerkiness drag when accelerating
i will update on the diaphragm later in that post
Here is the reason i want to add a extra fuel filter. I discovered that the tank liner i put in there 3 or 4 years ago has started to crack up in small pieces here and there . maybe it can not stand up to the heat from engine since it is only in the bottom of tank.It was fine for a long time but now its crackling a little.The Liner i used was Bill Hirsh gastank liner special for motorcycles.
It was a 3 step system with first a wash and rust remover then a etch primer and then the white liner.It says it will withstand ethanol based fuel.
Maybe the heat form engine is the problem and it starts cracking up after some years.
When i drained the tank before winter there was only a few small pieces in the fuel so i will ride at least one more season before doing anything
I will have to re line the tank but not sure how i will get the old liner out ?
Methyl Ethyl Keytone should do the trick. It is NASTY stuff. Use it outdoors, wear gloves and a paint respirator.
PS...protect the exterior paint.
Quote from: Motofun on March 14, 2021, 07:50:51 AM
Methyl Ethyl Keytone should do the trick. It is NASTY stuff. Use it outdoors, wear gloves and a paint respirator.
PS...protect the exterior paint.
Thanks for the advice ! now it just to find that stuff here in Norway ...
King winter has now started to arrive and i have drained carbs and gastank.The tankliner that was installed 4 years ago has cracked even more.Drained the tank with a hose from tank filler hole into clear bottles.The fuel only had a few white flakes from the cracked liner in it.Where all the pieces go i don't know maybe they just dissolve in the fuel?. Anyway i only ridden about 5000km this summer and so far had no problems with the filter i placed inside the hose.
No signs of fuel starvation when wot or when there is little fuel left in tank.I once taught there was a problem when i suddenly ran out of fuel on the highway for the first time in 30 years! the idiot low fuel warning light did not came on and i thought i had full control that it should be about 5 litres left. :yahoo:
I have checked the inside hose filter a couple of times this summer and it has been
clean so the petcock filter inside the tank is doing its job
MEK, methyl ethyl keytone will remove the old liner. It is nasty NASTY stuff. Do it outside and wear rubber gloves and activated carbon respirator....or just get someone you really don't like to do it......Sfter you clean the tank, I've had very good results with Caswell tank liner. It's a 2 part epoxy. The only gripe I have is it's fairly thick and difficult to fully drain after coating the interior. I drained it on my gravel driveway and for several years had a nice epoxy spot that was impervious to anything! :good2:
Quote from: Motofun on November 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
MEK, methyl ethyl keytone will remove the old liner. It is nasty NASTY stuff. Do it outside and wear rubber gloves and activated carbon respirator....or just get someone you really don't like to do it......Sfter you clean the tank, I've had very good results with Caswell tank liner. It's a 2 part epoxy. The only gripe I have is it's fairly thick and difficult to fully drain after coating the interior. I drained it on my gravel driveway and for several years had a nice epoxy spot that was impervious to anything! :good2:
Thanks for the advice. I tried to find that MEK stuff here in Norway but couldn't. I tested using something named stable acetone and it did the job.Completely dissolves the liner ,but the liner has to bee into the acetone the vapors will not remove anything.The acetone i used for this test cost 70 usd for 5 litres so if i have to fill the tank with 22 litres it will be too pricey.
I did a test with a screw that is covered with the liner from when installed the liner se pic.
About the caswell it sound promising and it is real epoxy,i have been thinking about using that, but i have read both good and bad reviews about it.It seems most liners just fail after some 3-4 years.
The incidence of rusty tanks is only going to get worse. An idea I considered was a plastic tank with the original fitted back over the top once the bottom had been cut out of it, so it becomes a decorative cover over the actual plastic one underneath.
With 6500 members someone must work in a related industry and can advise on the practicality of such an idea.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on November 08, 2021, 07:33:22 AMThe incidence of rusty tanks is only going to get worse. An idea I considered was a plastic tank with the original fitted back over the top once the bottom had been cut out of it, so it becomes a decorative cover over the actual plastic one underneath.
With 6500 members someone must work in a related industry and can advise on the practicality of such an idea.
Noel
Noel,
Not sure if that approach will be valid for many riders, but I could see inflating a thick "balloon" of hot (fuelproof) plastic inside a hot tank, to create a custom-lined
and durable inner tank. You may need small holes pulling a vacuum at the far corners of the tank to get the maximum of volume inside the existing tank, but some minor loss of tank volume should not be a deal-breaker there. Seal the inner and outer tanks together at the inlet and outlet openings, and it's done. No welding.
My US$.02 worth . . .
Noel,
The material of the tank being steel makes it a very repairable item. It is a very workable material if you have access to the right tools and some little bit of skill in using them (or know someone who does). Steel can be welded, or brazed to fix it up. And if your welding skills are like mine, an angle grinder and a bit more welding and grinding can help, as well as some filler and primer in the painting stage. ;^)
In my opinion, trying to make a plastic tank would be difficult to do & getting a durable end product might be hard to achieve. Another option would be to make a tank out of aluminum. It's easier to form than steel and can be TIG welded as well as soldered with aluminum soldering rods & a torch. The top half that is exposed to use & abuse would need to be a bit thicker to stand up to it though. Once it is all fabricated it will be a bit less susceptible to corrosion like a steel tank is. Of course if you anted to torture yourself you could make one out of stainless steel. That could be quite beautiful if done well. :^)
If/when my FJ tanks get to the point of rusting bad enough to need fixing I will be looking at stripping all of the paint off & removing the rust to see what's left. From there I would most likely weld in patch panels where needed. I would then see about using either one of the epoxy based coating systems or trying to use electroless nickel plating to thoroughly coat the interior of the tank. Of course then prepping the outside and repainting it. That's if there are no stock tanks available in decent shape left to buy somewhere.
George
gdfj12
Quote from: red on November 08, 2021, 09:57:29 AM
Quote from: ribbert on November 08, 2021, 07:33:22 AMThe incidence of rusty tanks is only going to get worse. An idea I considered was a plastic tank with the original fitted back over the top once the bottom had been cut out of it, so it becomes a decorative cover over the actual plastic one underneath.
With 6500 members someone must work in a related industry and can advise on the practicality of such an idea.
Noel
Noel,
Old rider wrote:
Noel:
I like the idea stuffing a plastic tank inside but it will for sure hold less fuel and may be difficult when filling at the gas station making a
non leaking seal between fillercap and plastic tank.Then there is the fuelsender that must be modified.
Red wrote:
Not sure if that approach will be valid for many riders, but I could see inflating a thick "balloon" of hot (fuelproof) plastic inside a hot tank, to create a custom-lined and durable inner tank. You may need small holes pulling a vacuum at the far corners of the tank to get the maximum of volume inside the existing tank, but some minor loss of tank volume should not be a deal-breaker there. Seal the inner and outer tanks together at the inlet and outlet openings, and it's done. No welding.
My US$.02 worth . . .
Old rider wrote:
Red:
That is also a good idea. Or maybe just make a casting of the hole tank and make one in fiberglass/plastic can work many bikes have fiberglass/plastic tanks
My tank did not really need a liner in first place it had very little rust ,but have seen many FJ with rusted holes in the down angled outer point on sides.Because
water lays down there under the fuel. It gets even worse when using ethanol fuel that is hygroscopic.Here in Norway it is not possible to buy clean fuel .The best thing to use here is
98% super that has only 2-5% ethanol in it .I wanted to avoid rusting down in the angled points (sorry for bad English =) ) and therefore i did the liner
install.Maybe adding a little oil in the fuel will help.Yamaha manual recommend to drain the tank when storing the bike and use some oil and sloshing it around.
I will strip out the liner and use a snakecamera to inspect inside better.If it looks good i think i skip the liner next time if not i will try the
2k epoxy paint primer it is very durable and i don't think even acetone will bite on that. I will test it during the winter by painting a metal canister inside
and then fill it with fuel and let it sit for some months.
Here is the angled point im talking about =)
Quote from: gdfj12 on November 08, 2021, 12:16:22 PMNoel,
The material of the tank being steel makes it a very repairable item.
If/when my FJ tanks get to the point of rusting bad enough to need fixing I will be looking at stripping all of the paint off & removing the rust to see what's left. From there I would most likely weld in patch panels where needed. I would then see about using either one of the epoxy based coating systems or trying to use electroless nickel plating to thoroughly coat the interior of the tank. Of course then prepping the outside and repainting it. That's if there are no stock tanks available in decent shape left to buy somewhere.
George gdfj12
Hey everybody!
I
think that George has come up with the real answer (sorda)! I know that in the process of chrome plating, the real restoration of steel parts is in the preliminary nickel plating. Ideally, this will be actual electroplating of the inside of the tank, done by a commercial shop. The longer the process continues, the thicker the nickel plating will become. The plating process will automagically "fill in" any pinholes caused by rust. Once a tank is de-rusted, the electroplating process can make the nickel plating inside the tank as thick as may be desired (within reason). Experts in the field may have a good suggestion of other metals to "top off" the nickel plating, with a view to durability rather than appearance. Since such work is done often on automobile parts, this process of electroplating the inside of a gas tank should be reasonable in cost, and very good in results.
Any thoughts?
How do you not at the same time nickle plate the outside. It might look nice. Kind of like an old BSA .
Quote from: T Legg on November 08, 2021, 05:26:53 PMHow do you not at the same time nickle plate the outside. It might look nice. Kind of like an old BSA .
T Legg,
I would not want to nickel-plate the outside, but it should certainly be possible in a large-enough container. Buffing would be required, then.
To plate the inside of the tank only, I believe that you could fill the tank full with the electrolyte plating solution, and attach the electrodes, inside and outside the tank. Do the job while the tank sits on the workbench, dry on the outside.
Old Rider, the 98 octane fuel sold by Shell in Norway contains max .5% ethanol, according to the specifications published on their website. So it should be fairly safe to use. Of course, you can always add a dl or two of two stroke oil to the tank before putting the bike away for the winter to help prevent rust.
Quote from: Domino on November 09, 2021, 03:24:19 AM
Old Rider, the 98 octane fuel sold by Shell in Norway contains max .5% ethanol, according to the specifications published on their website. So it should be fairly safe to use. Of course, you can always add a dl or two of two stroke oil to the tank before putting the bike away for the winter to help prevent rust.
Yes i know that is why i only fill her up on shell stations 98 super.
Old Rider, you have been quiet on the product you used to seal your tank.
It wasn't by chance, Kreem?
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/C48AAOSwvdJfmyMq/s-l225.jpg)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 09, 2021, 09:46:31 AM
Old Rider, you have been quiet on the product you used to seal your tank.
It wasn't by chance, Kreem?
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/C48AAOSwvdJfmyMq/s-l225.jpg)
No it was Bill Hirsh tanksealer.
By the way since there is a company that is specialized in chroming nickelplating goldplating and more not far from where i live .I mailed them this morning and asked if they could strip out the liner and also if they could either chrome or nickel plate the inside ,but the answer was they could not
Quote from: Old Rider on November 08, 2021, 01:22:53 PM. . . I wanted to avoid rusting down in the angled points (sorry for bad English =) )
Old Rider,
No apology needed, here! You are doing better in English that some native-born USA speakers. :yes:
The English people (UK) might say the USA population does not speak English, anyway. :rofl2:
If you can talk your way
around any issue here, we will be happy to help, maybe with the "correct" terms, if nothing else.
Thanks for that and I'm glad there is a spell check feature on the forum :yes:
Quote from: Old Rider on November 09, 2021, 10:47:20 AM
Thanks for that and I'm glad there is a spell check feature on the forum :yes:
I have found spell checking to be my worst enema...
Here is an update on this topic. In November 2021 i did a test to see if i can use the Spraymax 2K primer inside the gas tank since the liner is cracking up.
It looks promising and i might use the primer.I first sprayed a couple of canisters with the primer and filled them with fule that has etanol mixed into it.
Then placed them outside .Now 20 months later i had a look to se how it holds up. The fuel filter i stuffed inside the fuelhose is working fine no problems with fuelstarvation ,but i think it is because the fuelfilter sitting inside the gastank is doing its job.
Just a little update.The bike started to cut out when riding it was just for a second from time to time i thaught it was something electrical ,but
then started thinking about the brass fuelfilter i had stuffed iniside the fuelhose. Stopped an pulled it out it looked a little dirty this time so i removed it and after that the bike runs smooth again.So the filter lasted 2 years before it started starving the fuel .Will replace it next season