on the inside, and is there such a product that can collect into a single muffler instead of the stock 2? while keeping the head pipes and a single can of choice?
I think you're asking for a lot, there. It would take a custom collector with a larger outlet to accommodate a single canister. Simply capping off the stock collector wouldn't work as the outlet would be too small. Why the desire to avoid new headers?
Quote from: Motofun on May 11, 2020, 02:27:04 PM
I think you're asking for a lot, there. It would take a custom collector with a larger outlet to accommodate a single canister. Simply capping off the stock collector wouldn't work as the outlet would be too small. Why the desire to avoid new headers?
there was no mention on my part about capping off any collector, that came from you.
from a simplicity standpoint i don't think it is asking for a lot , it takes a lot more to fit, jig and mass produce and manufacture head pipes, with or without collectors, that fit, it's just 1 piece i have seen many 4 into 2
such as this one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJ1100-FJ-1100-FJ1200-FJ-1200-SP-EXHAUST-COLLECTOR-BOX-NEW-UPGRADED-DESIGN/132176571484?hash=item1ec6566c5c:g:CpwAAOSwt2JaltC- (https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJ1100-FJ-1100-FJ1200-FJ-1200-SP-EXHAUST-COLLECTOR-BOX-NEW-UPGRADED-DESIGN/132176571484?hash=item1ec6566c5c:g:CpwAAOSwt2JaltC-)
why not a 4 into 1?
just research and cost benefit analysis , new pipes will cost a lot and is disproportionately high for a $1100.00 35 year old FJ ( unfortunately) it would be a very good product if someone "made" and distributed a collector with "your" larger outlet
still don't know what the insides look like do you know, are they pipes or a manifold?
To build a good header, you will have more money into the material than you realize.
The secret sauce on a 4 into 1 header is the merge collector.
$300 for a good one.
https://burnsstainless.com/products/4-into-1-base-collectors
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 11, 2020, 03:53:51 PM
To build a good header, you will have more money into the material than you realize.
The secret sauce on a 4 into 1 header is the merge collector.
$300 for a good one.
https://burnsstainless.com/products/4-into-1-base-collectors
that is too good, but a flat one for ground clearance.. my opinion is there aren't much difference in performance for an inferior conceptualize unit vs. and highly engineered item
for the casual rider, (i know some worship the FJ and cost is no object), it is my worship but cost is the complete object for this hobby du jour.
To answer your question... What does the collector look like on the inside?
It's just a box. No baffles. No diverters. No flow control devices (that I could see.) Just a box with 4 pipes in and two pipes out.
Bill
Quote from: CutterBill on May 11, 2020, 04:36:41 PM
To answer your question... What does the collector look like on the inside?
It's just a box. No baffles. No diverters. No flow control devices (that I could see.) Just a box with 4 pipes in and two pipes out.
Bill
thank you sir for this information, and it still went ( in the right hands 10.99 seconds in the quarter back in 1985)
and plenty of owners are still riding with this set up, a restrictive box with 4 in and 2 out
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 04:39:58 PM
and plenty of owners are still riding with this set up, a restrictive box with 4 in and 2 out
I prefer the look with Toucans, and a restrictive box makes no difference to me.
So all you want is a just a common 4 into 1 system? But I don't think you won't be able to keep the headers!
And why would you! They'll probably be restricting the flow of the new system.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0)
Cheers
Alan
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 04:39:58 PM
.......and plenty of owners are still riding with this set up, a restrictive box with 4 in and 2 out
Yep, like me :good:
Quote from: Sparky84 on May 11, 2020, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 04:39:58 PM
and plenty of owners are still riding with this set up, a restrictive box with 4 in and 2 out
I prefer the look with Toucans, and a restrictive box makes no difference to me.
So all you want is a just a common 4 into 1 system? But I don't think you won't be able to keep the headers!
And why would you! They'll probably be restricting the flow of the new system.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0)
Cheers
Alan
not concerned with restricted air flow, the original pipes are used for all sorts of speed related terrorizing , given aa larger diameter can, it this this can be overcome
ease of access and cleaning of chain
cosmetic appearance of a single can mounted higher tilted up
arguably weight savings
and same access to oil changing duties
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 11, 2020, 03:53:51 PM
To build a good header, you will have more money into the material than you realize.
The secret sauce on a 4 into 1 header is the merge collector.
$300 for a good one.
https://burnsstainless.com/products/4-into-1-base-collectors
So true. Here are some pictures of "period correct" collectors as they came from the factory. Yoshimura and Supertrap.
I also have a Vance and Hines old style 4-1 but can''t find the pictures.
The Yoshimura cleaned up nicely, but nothing like a Burns. Tony Nicosia was making some nice collector merges back in the 70's.
And I was thinking of an early discussion we had when I opened a drawer to find not one, not two but three sets of OEM gaskets and I've bought a set or two and used them without even touching those.....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 11, 2020, 03:53:51 PM
To build a good header, you will have more money into the material than you realize.
The secret sauce on a 4 into 1 header is the merge collector.
$300 for a good one.
https://burnsstainless.com/products/4-into-1-base-collectors
Burns is art
Personally, the stock system with better flowing cans really compliments the FJ's powerband. Power when and where we all ride most of the time.
Generally a 4-1 will give you a flat spot but a nice bump in the upper RPM's - Where we don't ride all the time anyway.
And then there are the 4-2-1 systems, like RPM's, that also work well everywhere in the powerband.
At least that's my nickles worth
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 07:11:24 PM
Quote from: Sparky84 on May 11, 2020, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 04:39:58 PM
and plenty of owners are still riding with this set up, a restrictive box with 4 in and 2 out
I prefer the look with Toucans, and a restrictive box makes no difference to me.
So all you want is a just a common 4 into 1 system? But I don't think you won't be able to keep the headers!
And why would you! They'll probably be restricting the flow of the new system.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0)
Cheers
Alan
not concerned with restricted air flow, the original pipes are used for all sorts of speed related terrorizing , given aa larger diameter can, it this this can be overcome
ease of access and cleaning of chain
cosmetic appearance of a single can mounted higher tilted up
arguably weight savings
and same access to oil changing duties
Well I don't clean chains..
Cosmetic appearance IMO, is WAY better with symmetry ( Toucans ) but it's what YOU perceive as best appearance, ( I prefer sheilas with both cans) :lol:
Weight savings, you can get still get lighter Toucan systems
Cheers
Alan
Quote from: FJ1200W on May 11, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 11, 2020, 03:53:51 PM
To build a good header, you will have more money into the material than you realize.
The secret sauce on a 4 into 1 header is the merge collector.
$300 for a good one.
https://burnsstainless.com/products/4-into-1-base-collectors
Burns is art
Personally, the stock system with better flowing cans really compliments the FJ's powerband. Power when and where we all ride most of the time.
Generally a 4-1 will give you a flat spot but a nice bump in the upper RPM's - Where we don't ride all the time anyway.
And then there are the 4-2-1 systems, like RPM's, that also work well everywhere in the powerband.
At least that's my nickles worth
now that is a aerodynamic collector, the others work just fine, just not optimal.
i read maybe i am wrong the intake ( incoming) need port and polish, flow benching, the exhaust side don't benefit from too much of that stuff, that is why most manufacturer don't care or pay too much attention to how the pipes collect in the collector, maybe port matched from the exhaust port to the pipe contact point since it so close to the combustion chamber? causing turbulence, the scavenging of the pulses are sucking the gases out anyways if there is enough volume to avoid a traffic jam?
maybe that is why the 4 into 2 "box " works, i studied the looks of this box and it seems to be designed as a large crossover, roomy and channels flow, so there was some thought that went into it
Quote from: Sparky84 on May 11, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 07:11:24 PM
Quote from: Sparky84 on May 11, 2020, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: mtc on May 11, 2020, 04:39:58 PM
and plenty of owners are still riding with this set up, a restrictive box with 4 in and 2 out
I prefer the look with Toucans, and a restrictive box makes no difference to me.
So all you want is a just a common 4 into 1 system? But I don't think you won't be able to keep the headers!
And why would you! They'll probably be restricting the flow of the new system.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7073.0)
Cheers
Alan
not concerned with restricted air flow, the original pipes are used for all sorts of speed related terrorizing , given aa larger diameter can, it this this can be overcome
ease of access and cleaning of chain
cosmetic appearance of a single can mounted higher tilted up
arguably weight savings
and same access to oil changing duties
Well I don't clean chains..
Cosmetic appearance IMO, is WAY better with symmetry ( Toucans ) but it's what YOU perceive as best appearance, ( I prefer sheilas with both cans) :lol:
Weight savings, you can get still get lighter Toucan systems
Cheers
Alan
a set of snakes on a vintage honda cb400 no symmetrical, to each his own, i like a pair as well, flip flopper, and that what i am running anyhows
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Awr9JhXZ_bleQ3EA3gOJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDOTYwNjI4NTcEX3IDMgRhY3RuA2NsawRjc3JjcHZpZAM2aWhwb1RFd0xqS0VSY1JTV3A4ek9nVFFNall3TUFBQUFBQ0JyV2JXBGZyA3lzZXRfZmZfc3ljX2hwLXMEZnIyA3NhLWdwBGdwcmlkA21RSzZ0MmRHU3YyME93WWF3YzRjZ0EEbl9zdWdnAzEwBG9yaWdpbgNpbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMQRwcXN0cgNjYjQwMARwcXN0cmwDNQRxc3RybAMxMwRxdWVyeQNob25kYSUyMGNiNDAwBHRfc3RtcAMxNTg5MjQ3NDU5?p=honda+cb400&fr=yset_ff_syc_hp-s&fr2=sa-gp-images.search&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt#id=3&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikebound.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F06%2FHonda-CB400F-Cafe-Racer-1.jpg&action=click (https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Awr9JhXZ_bleQ3EA3gOJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDOTYwNjI4NTcEX3IDMgRhY3RuA2NsawRjc3JjcHZpZAM2aWhwb1RFd0xqS0VSY1JTV3A4ek9nVFFNall3TUFBQUFBQ0JyV2JXBGZyA3lzZXRfZmZfc3ljX2hwLXMEZnIyA3NhLWdwBGdwcmlkA21RSzZ0MmRHU3YyME93WWF3YzRjZ0EEbl9zdWdnAzEwBG9yaWdpbgNpbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMQRwcXN0cgNjYjQwMARwcXN0cmwDNQRxc3RybAMxMwRxdWVyeQNob25kYSUyMGNiNDAwBHRfc3RtcAMxNTg5MjQ3NDU5?p=honda+cb400&fr=yset_ff_syc_hp-s&fr2=sa-gp-images.search&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt#id=3&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikebound.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F06%2FHonda-CB400F-Cafe-Racer-1.jpg&action=click)
Another consideration is the firing order.
The more even the pulse spacing and the longer spacing distance within the tubes, the better the scavenging.
I say should but it's hard to do on a 4 into 2 into 1 header system on a I-4 cylinder engine with the FJ's firing order of 1-2-4-3.
Instead of connecting cylinder #1 to cylinder #2 and on the other side connecting cylinder #3 to cylinder #4 theoretically with 1-2-4-3 firing order, cylinders #1 should be connected with #4 and #2 connected to #3, again, like the coils. Hard to connect #1 with #4 and keep the tubes equal length.
Several years ago there was a 4-2-1 FJ header for sale on FleaBay that had header tube #1 crossed over 2/3 and merged with #4. It sure looked weird.
A 4-1 system has no such concerns.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 11, 2020, 10:44:23 PM
Another consideration is the firing order.
The more even the pulse spacing and the longer spacing distance within the tubes, the better the scavenging.
I say should but it's hard to do on a 4 into 2 into 1 header system on a I-4 cylinder engine with the FJ's firing order of 1-2-4-3.
Instead of connecting cylinder #1 to cylinder #2 and on the other side connecting cylinder #3 to cylinder #4 theoretically with 1-2-4-3 firing order, cylinders #1 should be connected with #4 and #2 connected to #3, again, like the coils. Hard to connect #1 with #4 and keep the tubes equal length.
Several years ago there was a 4-2-1 FJ header for sale on FleaBay that had header tube #1 crossed over 2/3 and merged with #4. It sure looked weird.
A 4-1 system has no such concerns.
yes for optimization
i see what you are saying
https://pantera.infopop.cc/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/1598208421242774/filePointer/1598208421571197/fodoid/1598208421571195/imageType/LARGE/inlineImage/true/bundle_of_snakes.JPG (https://pantera.infopop.cc/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/1598208421242774/filePointer/1598208421571197/fodoid/1598208421571195/imageType/LARGE/inlineImage/true/bundle_of_snakes.JPG)
i think that is why the stock "expansion chamber" works so well, it roomy, directs flow, commingles all pulsation to 2 outlets, and tuned for the fj's factory power-band, (with none of the 4 to 1 flat spot) so maybe the first response could be doable, block one outlet on the manifold and enlarge the remaining, but curve the left side not unlike the famed Dynomax super turbo internal half pipe redirecting flow
https://www.google.com/search?q=dynomax+super+turbo+muffler&tbm=isch&chips=q:dynomax+super+turbo+muffler,g_1:cutaway:aJ3AnECPNqY%3D&client=firefox-b-1-d&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiCwvnJu63pAhVSWKwKHZ2mDD0Q4lYoAXoECAEQFw&biw=1041&bih=598 (https://www.google.com/search?q=dynomax+super+turbo+muffler&tbm=isch&chips=q:dynomax+super+turbo+muffler,g_1:cutaway:aJ3AnECPNqY%3D&client=firefox-b-1-d&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiCwvnJu63pAhVSWKwKHZ2mDD0Q4lYoAXoECAEQFw&biw=1041&bih=598)
call our mid-pipe a resonator
https://nascargallery2019.blogspot.com/2019/02/nascar-boom-tube-exhaust.html (https://nascargallery2019.blogspot.com/2019/02/nascar-boom-tube-exhaust.html)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 11, 2020, 10:44:23 PM
Another consideration is the firing order.
The more even the pulse spacing and the longer spacing distance within the tubes, the better the scavenging.
I say should but it's hard to do on a 4 into 2 into 1 header system on a I-4 cylinder engine with the FJ's firing order of 1-2-4-3.
Instead of connecting cylinder #1 to cylinder #2 and on the other side connecting cylinder #3 to cylinder #4 theoretically with 1-2-4-3 firing order, cylinders #1 should be connected with #4 and #2 connected to #3, again, like the coils. Hard to connect #1 with #4 and keep the tubes equal length.
Several years ago there was a 4-2-1 FJ header for sale on FleaBay that had header tube #1 crossed over 2/3 and merged with #4. It sure looked weird.
A 4-1 system has no such concerns.
Kawasaki's KZ650SR had a similar setup.
Supposedly it put out more midrange power than the "normal" setup.
Looks really good IMO
Quote from: Sparky84 on May 11, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Cosmetic appearance IMO, is WAY better with symmetry ( Toucans ) but it's what YOU perceive as best appearance, ( I prefer sheilas with both cans) :lol:
Cheers
Alan
That's good stuff
The EXUP exhaust valve on the FZ1 changes the exhaust pairing at higher RPMs for better performance.