I've recently installed the Spiegler brake/clutch line kit on my '89, and I'm impressed at how firm the front brake lever now is after a thorough bleeding of the system.
For my taste, it's too firm. The travel is such now that I really cannot modulate the brake pressure; They start to firmly grab after only about an inch and a half of lever travel. Anything beyond that and it seems like the brakes want to lock up the front tire. Does anyone have experience with this? How can I get some more friendly feel back in the system?
I like a little air in my rear brake system so it is less sensitive. Might not be good for front brakes if they get hot for any reason.
I'm not a fan on introducing air into the system.
As Markus said, it does work on my rear brake but I would never consider it on my front brakes.
A second option: Convert over to DOT 5 silicone brake fluid. It would mean a complete disassembly and cleaning on your system to remove all traces of DOT 3/4. The DOT 5 will give you a slightly softer feel at the brake lever. Because DOT 5 is non hygroscopic (does not absorb water) I would not recommend it in a wet climate.
A third option (best): The stock FJ master cylinder piston diameter is 5/8" (it's cast on the body) or 16mm.
If you want a better feel at the brake lever, (longer travel) change your master cylinder out to a FJR m/c which uses a 15mm piston or a FZ1 m/c which uses a 14mm piston. Both are plug and play with your '89.
You will have better control at threshold.
Cheers
Hey Pat,
I'm a big fan of option 3. I went to Partzilla and looked at the Front Master cylinder diagram for a '05 FJR. The lever assembly and M/C assembly together are only $185! Can it be that easy? There is a front stop switch assembly that appears related in some way to the M/C assembly, so that's a bit nebulous.
No reason to buy new $$$$
Buy them used on FleaBay....they are plentiful and cheap
For example FJR https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJR-1300-Front-Brake-Master-Cylinder-from-2004-Yamaha-/353069289269 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJR-1300-Front-Brake-Master-Cylinder-from-2004-Yamaha-/353069289269)
FZ1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Yamaha-FZ1-front-master-cylinder-lever-/273177297614 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Yamaha-FZ1-front-master-cylinder-lever-/273177297614)
I think you will like the smaller 14mm m/c off the FZ1 the best.
If you are worried about buying used...buy a rebuild kit and replace the seals...and call it a day.
Cheers
+1 for the FZ1 master cylinder, great feel (especially with the blue spot calipers) and you get a span-adjustable lever in the mix too :good2:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2020, 02:34:19 PM.. Because DOT 5 is non hygroscopic (does not absorb water) I would not recommend it in a wet climate.
Pat, did you really mean that? Or is that a typo? The fact that DOT 5 fluid is non-hygroscopic means it would be ideal for a wet climate. (Actually, it's ideal for any location but that's another discussion.)
Bill
Quote from: CutterBill on May 07, 2020, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2020, 02:34:19 PM.. Because DOT 5 is non hygroscopic (does not absorb water) I would not recommend it in a wet climate.
Pat, did you really mean that? Or is that a typo? The fact that DOT 5 fluid is non-hygroscopic means it would be ideal for a wet climate. (Actually, it's ideal for any location but that's another discussion.)
Bill
Hi Bill, yes, that's what I meant.
Water sneaks into your hydraulic system, past the seals, where it's absorbed by DOT 3/4. When you change your fluid out, you also take out the absorbed water, you are good to go..
With DOT 5 when it's not absorbed, water still gets in, accumulates and pools at the low spot of the system.(water is heavier than silicone)
Very evident with the clutch slave, water pools at the bottom of the bore pitting the aluminum bore and rusting the steel piston.
With DOT 5, just because you flush you brake fluid out *does not mean* you have taken the water out with it.*** Think about where the bleeder port is located....up high where the air accumulates....not down low where the water pools.
Therefore, if you live in a wet climate or do a lot of wet riding, you want a brake fluid that absorbs water.
That way you can easily remove the water when you flush out the old DOT 3/4
Water is getting into your system, one way or another.
Cheers
*** I have DOT 5 in my '84 and I have a special technique for bleeding that helps address any pooled water...then again, I live in the desert.
I may be the exception. I live in North Texas where the summer humidity can get very uncomfortable with lots of moisture in the air.
When I swapped over to DOT 5, that fluid remained in the front brake system until I did the 17" front wheel upgrade and caliper change to monoblocks.
I split the stock calipers to look for any sign of corrosion. None to be found, bores nice and shiny like they had just been machined.
Amount of time between DOT 5 fill and caliper change = 14 YEARS. Never bled or even removed the master cylinder cover during that time.
Do you ride in the rain David?
At the 2011 soggy WCR in Hayfork, after 5 days in the rain, I had water in my systems.
If I stay dry, I change my DOT 5 every 2-3 years. Do I really need to? Prolly not....
Pat... that is so strange. DOT 5 silicone brake was originally developed for the military because they were tired of moisture-induced corrosion of the brake system internals. Switching the fleet over to DOT 5 stopped the corrosion.
Your experience is at odds with the military's. Very strange...
Bill
Quote from: CutterBill on May 07, 2020, 07:47:46 PM
....Switching the fleet over to DOT 5 stopped the corrosion.
Nope, sorry, not buying it... https://tinyurl.com/yd3tmtxw
It seems that what Pat is saying is that inevitably some air & moisture will find it's way into the system, over time. This is a given.
DOT 5 is hydrophobic; That moisture has to collect somewhere, and since it cannot be close friends with DOT 5, it will pool in the lowest part of the system.
No DOT 5 conversion for me this season, but I bet that FZ1 M/C is going to work it's way into my mailbox this year :)
Pat, what you say makes sense but other long-term users of DOT 5 disagree with you. I found an interesting discussion in the forum of the American Antique Car Club...
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/318446-change-brake-fluid-from-dot-3-to-dot-5/
If you read the discussion, they are fairly even divided between the swear-by-it group and the never-use-it group. So who is right? Beats me. I will say that I will almost put up with any problems that DOT 5 fluid might create, just so I don't have to deal with DOT 3 & 4 fluid being such a good paint stripper. I once had to tear down a perfectly good FJ1100, just so I could repair the paint damage from a leaky clutch master on the frame. Ugh, no thanks...
Well, I'm running the DOT 5 in my FJ's and my WR400; I guess we will find out the truth in a few years. Stay tuned... :unknown:
Bill
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 07, 2020, 09:54:05 PM
Quote from: CutterBill on May 07, 2020, 07:47:46 PM
....Switching the fleet over to DOT 5 stopped the corrosion.
Nope, sorry, not buying it... https://tinyurl.com/yd3tmtxw
I've not spend much time on this subject, this is it.
I'm sticking with the old DOT 3/4 and flushing it every couple of years.
If I install a completely new system, I might consider dot 5.1.
Otherwise I don't feel there is enough of an advantage for me to make the change to DOT 5.0.
I've seen this discussion many times. My main question is: What is the forcing function that's pushing air/water INTO a closed system?
I can maybe see a bad seal on the master cylinder gasket allowing ambient air to somehow find its way into the reservoir. There is on outside pressure forcing moisture passed the seals into the system.
If anything, the pressure generated during braking should work to force fluid/moisture/air out of the system.
I can see where an H2O molecule is smaller than an O2 molecule, but it's not like they are constantly attempting to push themselves into the braking system.
I don't intentionally ride in the rain but have been caught in it numerous times with no ill effect to my hydraulic systems,
Just providing my long term observations and experience with DOT5. I've had it in my '85 since about 1987. When I got my '93 in 2000, one of the first things I did was convert all the hydraulics to DOT5. I did have to put new seals in the front calipers several years ago, but unless Joe Berk has changed it back or flushed it recently, that original fluid is still in the rear brake and clutch.
Maybe with DOT3/4 being hydroscopic, they attract moisture. DOT5 being hydrophobic doesn't "pull" moisture into the system
Once again, such an easy lead in for Klavdy ....
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 08, 2020, 10:52:41 AM
I've seen this discussion many times. My main question is: What is the forcing function that's pushing air/water INTO a closed system?
I can maybe see a bad seal on the master cylinder gasket allowing ambient air to somehow find its way into the reservoir. There is no outside pressure forcing moisture passed the seals into the system.
If anything, the pressure generated during braking should work to force fluid/moisture/air out of the system.
I can see where an H2O molecule is smaller than an O2 molecule, but it's not like they are constantly attempting to push themselves into the braking system.
I don't intentionally ride in the rain but have been caught in it numerous times with no ill effect to my hydraulic systems,
Just providing my long term observations and experience with DOT5. I've had it in my '85 since about 1987. When I got my '93 in 2000, one of the first things I did was convert all the hydraulics to DOT5. I did have to put new seals in the front calipers several years ago, but unless Joe Berk has changed it back or flushed it recently, that original fluid is still in the rear brake and clutch.
Maybe with DOT3/4 being hydroscopic, they attract moisture. DOT5 being hydrophobic doesn't "pull" moisture into the system
edited
Quote from: fj1289 on May 08, 2020, 08:37:33 PM
Once again, such an easy lead in for Klavdy ....
How's that?
While we've got you on the subject, does the brake lever mount on to the FJR master differently? I have a new set of levers on a stock FJ1100 clutch and brake, and it would nice not to have to lose the use of them.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2020, 05:58:36 PM
No reason to buy new $$$$
Buy them used on FleaBay....they are plentiful and cheap
For example FJR https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJR-1300-Front-Brake-Master-Cylinder-from-2004-Yamaha-/353069289269 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJR-1300-Front-Brake-Master-Cylinder-from-2004-Yamaha-/353069289269)
FZ1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Yamaha-FZ1-front-master-cylinder-lever-/273177297614 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Yamaha-FZ1-front-master-cylinder-lever-/273177297614)
I think you will like the smaller 14mm m/c off the FZ1 the best.
If you are worried about buying used...buy a rebuild kit and replace the seals...and call it a day.
Cheers
Apples to oranges. IIRC years ago someone tried buying the adjustable FJR levers to use on the stock FJ m/c's and reported that they would not fit...
If you are getting a FJR or a FZ-1 m/c, I don't know why you would even consider using the stock FJ lever when the FJR/FZ-1 levers are adjustable.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2020, 05:58:36 PM
No reason to buy new $$$$
Buy them used on FleaBay....they are plentiful and cheap
For example FJR https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJR-1300-Front-Brake-Master-Cylinder-from-2004-Yamaha-/353069289269 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/FJR-1300-Front-Brake-Master-Cylinder-from-2004-Yamaha-/353069289269)
FZ1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Yamaha-FZ1-front-master-cylinder-lever-/273177297614 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Yamaha-FZ1-front-master-cylinder-lever-/273177297614)
I think you will like the smaller 14mm m/c off the FZ1 the best.
If you are worried about buying used...buy a rebuild kit and replace the seals...and call it a day.
Cheers
Hi Pat, are you saying the smaller the diameter the better the feel? I thought in this instance more is more?
I tried to fit a 19mm Nissin radial calliper off a GSXR 600/750. Looked awesome but the brake line fixing bolt came out the bottom and fouled the bar riser; meant I had to rotate it back - not good ergonomics for wrists.
Im dropping the ABS - I want a calliper that looks conventional but gives the strongest brakes (2 finger stoppies!) , in conjunction with blue spots, braided lines and new wavy disks?
Hey Jan, yes, the smaller the piston in the m/c 1) the longer the lever travel to move that same amount of brake fluid and 2) the smaller piston pushes harder with the same lever pressure (all things being equal)
I say "all things being equal" meaning a comparison between m/c's that are the same design and have roughly the same pivot ratio on the lever.
FJ's, FJR's, FZ-1's use old school axial m/c's with internal reservoirs.
Radial m/c's are a different breed. They come in different piston diameters and lever ratios to fit whatever application you choose. Entirely possible to have a radial m/c 19mm piston with a softer feel because the lever ratio is different. Like you, I am not a fan of the urine cups on a radial m/c...
*but*
There is no doubt that they are a superior design to the axial m/c's.
IMHO the best value and sweet spot for 2 finger braking on our FJ's is the 14mm axial m/c, Spiegler lines and R-1 mono block calipers with HH pads. It's really quite nice.
Of course, there are better brake systems available out there. I would love to try a radial m/c on my '84.
Perhaps with a polished aluminum urine cup?
Cheers
I'm with Pat on this, I love the brakes on my FJ, set up pretty much the way Pat describes - Spiegler lines aren't really available over here, but Earls Performance do great lines at decent prices - They're based at Silverstone Jan (just outside the track) and with a phone call, you can arrange to ride down and collect (if they're open through lockdown).
Cheers Chaps
Makes sense - any particular models to source from? Fazer, FZ1 /6, FJ1300 - any preference for Brembo or Nissin?
How about a Rizoma 'pot' - same as your mirrors Pat. Lush CNC billet machined quality and fits the FJ with a discrete black anodised finish
https://www.rizoma.com/universal/fluid-tanks/ct027/en (https://www.rizoma.com/universal/fluid-tanks/ct027/en)
I think the best axial m/c 's I recall were called Cobapress, made by a French firm called Beringer. They use a special roller bearing that enhanced the feel of right angle lever action.
You can spend thousands of dollars on your system.
Practice practice practice....and practice some more.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 18, 2020, 11:12:02 AM
Hey Jan, yes, the smaller the piston in the m/c 1) the longer the lever travel to move that same amount of brake fluid and 2) the smaller piston pushes harder with the same lever pressure (all things being equal)
Sorry Padre, I'll have to clean that up a bit.
Force is applied at the lever and is converted to a fluid pressure by the master cylinder piston. The pressure comes from applying the lever/piston force (lb) over the area of the m/c piston (sq in). Thus the pressure (lb/sq in).
If more lever force is applied, the pressure increases. If the piston area is reduced, the force is applied over less area and the pressure also goes up. This comes at the loss of total fluid delivery so you have to watch going too far or the lever will come all the way back to the bar.
Opinion: I'm not a big fan of "2-finger stoppie" brakes. Because even though I practice, practice, practice braking skills, I can't practice my response to surprise. I don't want grab a full handful of 2-finger brakes and through myself on my face.
Yamaha also moved away from the 14mm master cylinders. The new bikes (FZ, FJR, MT) all appear to have 15mm masters
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 18, 2020, 06:55:58 PM
...Yamaha also moved away from the 14mm master cylinders. The new bikes (FZ, FJR, MT) all appear to have 15mm masters
The new bikes also have ABS.....For non ABS I still think 14mm is best.
Thanks for the clarification amigo...I remember we had a long discussion on this topic a decade or so ago...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 18, 2020, 11:12:02 AM
IMHO the best value and sweet spot for 2 finger braking on our FJ's is the 14mm axial m/c, Spiegler lines and R-1 mono block calipers with HH pads. It's really quite nice.
That's exactly what I ran and it is an excellent set up. Trying to introduce air into the system is not the way to go. I am sure an engineer from Brembo would agree.
Evening gents Nice tidy FJ1300 Nissin 14mm front master cylinder arrived courtesy of a well known internet auction house for the princely sum of 22 of your English pounds - very good condition, cheaper than repainting the old FJ one. Deal! thanks for your help and advice guys, now for the discs....
Cheers
Jan
And a nice, adjustable-span brake lever too Jan :good2:
Quote from: Millietant on May 27, 2020, 05:08:15 PM
And a nice, adjustable-span brake lever too Jan :good2:
Yes got there in the end. Thanks Dean. Looks great but the adjustable dial is a bit stiff and in need of freeing off
Next up is discs (as we have discussed before) - Skywave in the UK is £125 a set, Arashi is £165... apart from the branding I can see the Arashi has a min thickness of 4.5mm where as the Skywave is min 4mm. They look the same but probably don't come out of the same factory.
Any experience or recommendations out there?
A set of fazer discs start at 4mm. Surely thinner is better and lighter or are thicker ones better, less prone to distortion and last longer. I assume the pads will always take up the slack with good bleeding.
Quote from: 2big
....... but the adjustable dial is a bit stiff and in need of freeing off
/quote]
If you push the lever forward, to unload it, it will be easier to turn.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on May 29, 2020, 06:04:20 PM
Quote from: 2big
....... but the adjustable dial is a bit stiff and in need of freeing off
/quote]
If you push the lever forward, to unload it, it will be easier to turn.
Noel
Thanks for the tip Noel...
Quote from: 2big on May 29, 2020, 05:43:36 PM
Quote from: Millietant on May 27, 2020, 05:08:15 PM
And a nice, adjustable-span brake lever too Jan :good2:
Yes got there in the end. Thanks Dean. Looks great but the adjustable dial is a bit stiff and in need of freeing off
Next up is discs (as we have discussed before) - Skywave in the UK is £125 a set, Arashi is £165... apart from the branding I can see the Arashi has a min thickness of 4.5mm where as the Skywave is min 4mm. They look the same but probably don't come out of the same factory.
Any experience or recommendations out there?
A set of fazer discs start at 4mm. Surely thinner is better and lighter or are thicker ones better, less prone to distortion and last longer. I assume the pads will always take up the slack with good bleeding.
I've never had a set òf discs wear out or go bad me on any of my bikes, even doing a lot of track miles. So far, my Skywaves are perfect after 2 years, and my standard ones on the FJ were still perfect after 77,000 miles.
Not sure why other people have so many issues - although my track day riding is mainly spent trying to keep up corner speeds and minimise braking :sarcastic: