A sad day. Only 41 years old is so young. He was one of the best. Gigi, Kobe's 13 year old daughter also died.
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/200126143156-02-kobe-bryant-lead-image-exlarge-tease.jpg)
Thank you Kobe for your hard work and effort :good: Thank you for being a Laker. Say hello to Chick for me...
Always sad when people pass before their time. I thought of you Pat when I heard the news as I know you are a Lakers super fan. Actually that's the only fact I know about the Lakers, not following basketball myself.
Thanks Andy
:empathy3: Being a lifetime Laker Fan I too am in funk today. Lets appreciate each day we have with those we hold dear.
Absolutely tragic, and by early appearances, unnecessary. A helicopter should never run into a mountain in fog. So many questions.
Kobe's pilot appeared to be well qualified, but yea, I have never heard of SVFR clearance....
When I went to ground school (1975) we had either VFR or IFR, with nothing in between....
(Rick, before you ask, yes, there were airplanes in 1975)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2020, 12:43:22 PM
Kobe's pilot appeared to be well qualified, but yea, I have never heard of SVFR clearance....
When I went to ground school (1975) we had either VFR or IFR, with nothing in between....
(Rick, before you ask, yes, there were airplanes in 1975)
Probably better pilots too...
This one seems to be a simple case of pilot overconfidence. I just can't understand why he wouldn't fly much slower and higher in those conditions, or hover and descend slowly until you can see the ground. At least they never knew what hit them.
A good explanation on SVFR and a day old update.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df6OPxxbSyc&feature=em-uploademail (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df6OPxxbSyc&feature=em-uploademail)
A good audio account.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28QYy8lrww8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28QYy8lrww8)
Especially sad event to hear a pilot seemingly pressing so hard to avoid picking up an IFR clearance - he was already having to hold for other IFR traffic - wouldn't have cost him any time...
Thanks for the link, Pat. Very interesting description by the witness, and after listening to the ATC radio conversation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVA3k02lMe8), I've changed my opinion. I believe he was a victim of an unfortunate series of circumstances, and was following orders from ATC which led to his demise. He was told to remain below FL025 due to his SVFR clearance, and when he was told he could approach VanNuys by following the 118 freeway, I believe he turned and headed in the direction he thought the freeway was, and flew straight into the hill. The low altitude he was maintaining caused the radio to be unreliable, so he never heard the warning from ATC.
My condolences to everyone impacted by this tragedy.
I don't have an IFR rating and I'm paranoid about fog/cloud - so many incidents have happened under those conditions that for me it's just not worth the risk (I enjoy the challenge of flying wearing foggles, but then always have an instructor with me when I do that) But as I have a private heli licence and not commercial I'm never under the type of pressure that would make me risk it. Also as a relatively (compared to these guys) low hours pilot, I've yet to become complacent/over-confident.
It's so sad when something like this happens and every time makes me re-think my choice to be a "leisure" flyer - even more risky than riding bikes.
Just to clarify, an SVFR clearance doesn't require you to remain at a lower altitude, or any altitude. What it does is allows the pilot to fly under visual flight rules when there is less than the minimum weather (ceiling and visibility) present. The pilot REQUESTS to fly under SVFR. The pilot and aircraft must both be certified to fly under instrument conditions.
And the flight was receiving "flight following". It was not under ATC control, per se. ATC was providing traffic information and general guidance. If you are VFR or SVFR you are flying based on visual references, not an instrument flight plan and not under air traffic control, unless you enter controlled airspace (as he did when transiting the BUR and VNY Class D airspaces).
What is odd is that SVFR is mainly for general aviation pilots. Not commercial air carriers. This helicopter was operating as a commercial air carrier, with paying passengers. They should never have been requesting a SVFR clearance. At least that what appears to be the case.
The NTSB investigation will determine the causes.
ATC could not provide flight following because they were to low to be picked up on radar.
The pilot received flight following for about the first 40 minutes of the flight, only when he descended near the mountains was he in an area that prevented radar contact and radio comm. He contacted ATC again, just before the impact, to request flight following again.
Thanks for the clarification, Flyer. I was under the impression he avoided climbing because he didn't want to enter controlled airspace above without going IFR. He was told by ATC to maintain FL025 or below.
I can't understand why a well qualified commercial pilot in a craft with no TAWS and when confronted with rising terrain and low ceiling, would not stop, contact ATC and declare an emergency IMC and pop up to go on instrument. (FAA fines?)
Maybe he was trying to do this, if he was, it sounds like ATC was not aware of his declaration and did not give him pop up clearance.
Hitting the mountain in a left turn decent at 2,000fpm (~185mph) in a functioning aircraft that has the ability to stop and hover is unthinkable.
Overconfidence Pat, overconfidence !!!!! I never got enough experience to get there !!!
If I encountered fog, I'd do an instrument t guided 180 and comb away from trouble - but I don't know the airspace they were in.
I agree, overconfidence. He was "Kobe's" pilot, after all. Can you imagine the embarrassment of slowly landing in a parking lot nowhere near your destination, to find TMZ filming Kobe and his group sheepishly standing around looking at the pilot who just landed the thing safely? The horror.
He didn't have to land anywhere, he was instrument rated, he could fly that bird wearing a hood. (literally)
RIP. So sad.
The switch from VFR to IFR is not as straightforward as you might think.
It is possible the pilot accidentally entered cloud. Lost his situational awareness and possibly hit the hill without seeing until the last second.
The 2000fpm turning descent is sadly similar to a crash here some time ago.
The pilot was super experienced with IFR in PNG. He entered cloud by mistake, lost his SA and mast bumped within 20 seconds.
Although the AH is there, in the stress of the pilots work can make interpreting the instruments tricky and pilots can revert to seat of pants 'feel'. A 2000fpm turning descent can feel like straight and level.
Poor buggers.
Please remember, no pilot sets out to end this way.
Quote from: Troyskie on January 29, 2020, 07:01:05 PM
Please remember, no pilot sets out to end this way.
Thanks Troy, of course this is true, and well to remember.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 29, 2020, 05:31:09 PM
He didn't have to land anywhere, he was instrument rated, he could fly that bird wearing a hood. (literally)
Agreed, my post was sarcasm, of course. It really is a sad situation. I have flown (copilot's seat) a small plane into IFR conditions, and the sensation of losing your bearings is absolutely sobering, and the trust you must have in your instruments is critical. For the life of me, I can't figure out how an experienced IFR pilot would lose the picture.
It doesn't take much to send an AH spinning. It can take a few seconds for an AH to settle down and be useful.
Depending on what sort of instrumentation the pilot had they might have been behind the machine and reacting instead of controlling.
It all seems to have happened really quick.
2000fpm down is pretty darn fast, like quicker than an autorotation.
Anyone with fixed wing experience might have had a spiral dive demonstrated. This manoeuvre can demonstrate a cup of water on the dash staying in place and not spilling despite the aircraft being almost upside down. This is often used to remind pilots to trust their instruments, not their gut.
I recently turned around after entering conditions I didn't like. I have personal minimums that are a tad stricter than the rules. Both my passenger and myself were disappointed, but we returned safely.
Most airlines and charter companies have their own set of rules and train accordingly to avoid this sort of tragedy.
In Australia there is wonderful and unusual bit of aviation law common sense. No pilot has ever been busted after they've made a PAN or maday call. It is encouraged to make a pan or mayday if you are under stress. No helicopter that has made a precautionary landing on private, public even defence owned land has ever had to do more than explain their actions.
The tragedy of the C130 that crashed her last week kind of highlights that even experienced crews in demanding conditions sometimes don't make it out. RIP to those guys. They are heroes and helped stop the fire near my place
The complex airspace in SoCal definitely was a factor. Lot for the investigators to look at. Hopefully, they'll find the answers.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on January 29, 2020, 09:00:05 PM
Agreed, my post was sarcasm, of course. It really is a sad situation. I have flown (copilot's seat) a small plane into IFR conditions, and the sensation of losing your bearings is absolutely sobering, and the trust you must have in your instruments is critical. For the life of me, I can't figure out how an experienced IFR pilot would lose the picture.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on January 29, 2020, 04:55:19 PM
I agree, overconfidence. He was "Kobe's" pilot, after all. Can you imagine the embarrassment of slowly landing in a parking lot nowhere near your destination, to find TMZ filming Kobe and his group sheepishly standing around looking at the pilot who just landed the thing safely? The horror.
Pressure is often an overlooked culprit. Applied, implied or self generated. The fact they were airborne suggests the pilot may well have already indicated to his customer that he could get them to their destination, thereby putting himself under the pump to make it happen.
Charter customers are often by virtue of wealth, business standing or celebrity status accustomed to calling the shots and skilled at intimidating people. If they hire an aircraft, it's generally because they need to be in a place at a time and it's important to them (or they wouldn't hire an aircraft)
Telling them it isn't going to happen never goes down well, even more so if you've already indicated it will, more so again if you're already airborne, and really awkward if en route and have to turn back.
Many a pilot has been bullied into making or continuing a flight they'd rather not have.
Human Factors is a mandatory subject for an ATPL .
The question as to how such an experienced pilot can do whatever gets asked all too often, the correlation between experience and safety is not linear.
There are pilots, like in every other field, that start out as and remain for the duration of their career, poor pilots.
At the end of the day, the pilot flew his aircraft into terrain while trying to sneak through bad weather. It was his responsibility to manage the risk which includes dodgy radar tracking, patchy radio contact, complex air space (that's his job) and whatever else was not in his favour. The special clearance he was flying under suggests he was already pushing the envelope.
As Troy said, he applies personal minimums that are stricter than the rules, I like that.
It is interesting to note why the Police helicopters had no such problem under the same conditions!
Noel
I was waiting for this to come up via the press before saying anything. Forbes has posted this:
The helicopter that crashed Sunday killing basketball star Kobe Bryant and eight others was owned by a charter company that only operated under visual flight rules, and its pilots were not permitted to fly solely based on their cockpit gauges if they encountered weather that limited visibility, a former pilot for the company told Forbes.
The pilot of the doomed flight, Ara Zobayan, was licensed to fly by cockpit instruments, but he likely had little real-world experience in doing so given the operating limitations of Island Express Helicopters, says Kurt Deetz, a former pilot for the company who flew Bryant for two years.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/29/pilot-in-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-wasnt-allowed-to-fly-by-instruments/#67ba93df26ea (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/29/pilot-in-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-wasnt-allowed-to-fly-by-instruments/#67ba93df26ea)
Thanks Chris
Just tragic all the way around. Thanks for the detailed info, Chris and Troyskie
That's a shame - self imposed limitations (company operating policies) and external pressure adding up to pushing the limits. There were no troops in contact, no life, limb, or eye-sight at risk.