Was riding the ol' FJ around town today. While waiting at a light the engine shut down. No instrument lights, no starter, no fuel pump, nuttin'. I pushed it to within 1 1/2 blocks of home, the rest is uphill. So far I checked the main fuse for the coil relay mod and I replaced the relay for same. Wiggled wires etc. Nobody home. I'm about to walk back to the bike with a multimeter and check if I have any battery voltage and whether the running lights are working.
Maybe the alternator failed and I exhausted the battery. In the meantime, I'd like to read other areas of the wiring that could cause a total system failure please. Oh, for those that haven't seen my machine, it's a 1990.
Joe
I may have found part of the issue. The battery voltage was 7.46V. I am guessing the FJ has a charging issue now. Suppose it remains to be seen if it's wiring or the alternator.
Joe
I put the old lead/acid battery back it and the bike had electrical life plus it started. So now it's back home. The multimeter was put back into use. Idle is about 12.1 volts, 1500 rpm is 12.33 and 2000 rpm is 14.1V. Does that look typical for a healthy FJ charging system? The battery that died is a WPS lithium but it seems that if the charging system was working, the engine would not have died. Fortunately I kept the lead/acid battery that was previously being used because it just came in handy. Any ideas what could have happened? Loose connector somewhere?
Joe
Did you check the infamous "red plug"?
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg180504#msg180504 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg180504#msg180504)
Are you overcharging your lithium battery?
Old school lead acid batteries are much more tolerant to 15+ volts charging current than AGM's or Li batteries.
Having no blown fuses, and it appears that your alternator is charging correctly. My first question would be.... was one of the battery terminal screws loose? 2nd would be as mentioned, check the red plug.
Fred
Joe
It is very hard to say without being there but, the fact that the bike had electrical power and started with the old battery reinstalled makes me believe it is most likely the battery.
The batteries I use in my model aircraft are Lithium Polymer, not Lithium Ion. When a Lithium Polymer battery is falling, it usually goes High Internal Resistance and thus can not deliver the required current, resulting in the battery becoming very hot and suffering a large Voltage Drop under load.
I am not sure if Lithium Ion batteries exhibit the same symptoms.
One thing that all members of this forum who like doing their own electrical work should consider purchasing is a simply "Hall Effect DC Clamp Meter". I am using an ISO-TECH ICM 30 meter. It cost me about AU$230.00 and was well worth it.
Using a Current measurement to check a charging system is much easier and more accurate than voltage.
I would say that the most likely point of failure would be an earth point.
Looking at all the diagrams in the Hays Manual, the entire lighting and ignition circuit connects to the frame at one point. The batteries negative (zero volt) terminal also connects to the frame at a single point.
These points plus the main earth from the engine to the frame should be inspected. Something we all ( well, most of us, myself included) neglect.
If you have a charger suitable for charging a Lithium Ion motorcycle battery, I would consider trying to charge the battery then placing it back in the bike and seeing if the bike will start. Remember, the only way to check a battery is "Under Load".
Unfortunately, they do not build batteries (or anything for that matter) to last. If you get say three years from a battery, your doing well.
At this stage, I don't think it is the charging system.
Gavin
Thank you fellas for the ideas.
Pat as it's dark now, I'll check the infamous red plug tomorrow or Sunday. Hard to know if it was being overcharged. The max voltage I saw after installing the lead/acid battery was about 14.25V. I just read the post you linked. Greg's description of his event was just about identical to mine except I never smelled anything burning.
When I removed the Lithium battery Fred, both battery bolts were tight and all connections were clean.
Gavin, I'm not familiar with a Hall Effect DC Clamp Meter. My multimeter does have a clamp lead for checking amperage. I am sure that if Robert or Randy chime in they will be able to offer insight into the peculiarities of their Lithium batteries.
The ground would be a good idea. "Somewhere", I have a wiring diagram that Fred sent me, (at least I think it was Fred). Otherwise, I don't know where the main earth connection is for the bike. That's a really good and simple point however. So many other vehicular electrical issues I've diagnosed have come down to poor grounds.
I think this newer Lithium battery does not require a unique charger. I thought that was one of the features of the current crop of Lithium batteries being sold at RPM. I could be mistaken.
The Lithium battery is five months old or so.
Joe
FYI it is common for FJ's to put out more than 15+ volts charging voltage
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4887.0;attach=13477 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4887.0;attach=13477)
Perhaps it's time for the Transpo VR mod?
I'll rev the engine higher tomorrow to check for 15+ volts.
Not familiar with that mod although I have read references to VR problems. I also don't see the infamous red plug on RPM's website. If it's melted then just replace with a generic substitution?
Joe
My experience with overcharging was that it was very hard to pin down.
I did read about your frustrations regarding cooking an AGM battery and how you had to carry a multimeter in your tank bag.
I also did read a thread about installing the Transpo VR.
Joe
Joe,
7.4 volts is still enough power to illuminate the lights, so I'm wondering if you have something else going on.
I understand the battery voltage is low, but if there was a total power loss, you need to be looking elsewhere than the battery.
The main ground cable is attached at one of the rear engine case bolts. You could be the first with a failure at that point, but I doubt it.
If it's was a true electrical power loss, then your going to need to start with the ignition switch and plug and then move to the handlebar kill switch.
I think I took a photo of the plug I recently replaced on the General's US bike before it went to the new owner. I'll look when I get to the shop.
Randy -RPM
Good points. However, as soon as I dropped in the lead acid battery the whole electrical system came to life.
I agree about the voltage. Cars, from the past, could run on 8 volts. Don't ask me how I know. :dash2: But, the bike lost all dash lights during the shutdown and they all came back with a battery switch.
Maybe I should put the lithium battery back in and test the lights again. Who knows, maybe I wiggled a wire just right during the battery switch. Today I plan to rev the engine higher and test for excessive voltage.
Is it true Randy, that the lithium battery I bought will get destroyed by 15V?
Joe
Quote from: Tuned forks on September 21, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
But, the bike lost all dash lights during the shutdown and they all came back with a battery switch.
Joe
The lights will definitely function at the 7 volts, they will be dim but illuminated. By changing the battery, you could have disrupted the failure point. Or if there is firty corroded contacts, for instance in the ignition switch, the new voltage aource could create enough arc to get things working again.
If I was working on it I would be looking for something that would have caused an electrical failure/shut down. If the lights still glowed, then I would say dead battery right off.
Quote from: Tuned forks on September 21, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
Is it true Randy, that the lithium battery I bought will get destroyed by 15V?
Joe
Li batteries do not excessive voltage for an extended amount of time. They do not have the internal ability to absorb the excess heat/expansion that a normal lead acid/AGM battery do.
So, the electrical & charging systems need to be diagnosed and see what occurred. I looked for some photos of the melted plug I recently changed, but I can't find them.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 21, 2019, 07:12:52 PM
.......Li batteries do not excessive voltage for an extended amount of time. They do not have the internal ability to absorb the excess heat/expansion that a normal lead acid/AGM battery do.
From the different AGM specifications I've read, AGM batteries don't like charging @ 15+ volts either.
I tested the FJ this afternoon. Revved the engine to 6k rpm and the voltage was 14.2V. Once again, charging does not begin until 1500 rpm or so. Maybe it's sporadic which is the kind of malady that I really dislike. Looks like a voltage gauge is in that bike's future.
Joe
Joe, with the conventional lead acid battery, have you ever had a problem with boiling off electrolyte?
I have.
A volt gauge where you can keep an eye on it is a good idea.
In my experience, the overcharging happened when my engine was heat soaked, usually in the middle of a long ride. The VR just goes crazy. Having my battery boil dry is a good sign things are amiss.
I get the bike home (after refilling the battery) and let it cool down, go out and check the voltage and everything is fine @ ~14.8 volts. So yes, I found the problem to be intermittent.
Could someone check, I seem to recall that the GYSM lists 15.2 volts as the upper range of the charging current for the FJ's system.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 21, 2019, 09:28:57 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 21, 2019, 07:12:52 PM
.......Li batteries do not excessive voltage for an extended amount of time. They do not have the internal ability to absorb the excess heat/expansion that a normal lead acid/AGM battery do.
From the different AGM specifications I've read, AGM batteries don't like charging @ 15+ volts either.
Neither of them like being overcharged but the AGM (or lead acid) is more forgiving, it's all about duration.
I try and keep up to date with automotive technology and have never been a head in the sand sort of bloke. When something needs replacing I always hunt around to see what's new before buying.
About 6 mths back I needed a new battery. Perchance, the guy I dealt with was the state manager for the battery company. I asked him if it was time to move on to a next gen battery. He rubbed his chin, thought for a moment, asked what sort of riding I do and finally said, "I think go AGM one more time"
What he was referring to was reliability. You can get away with doing things to an acid battery that would fry a Lithium battery. Yes, the odds are long etc but it's not much consolation when a 1000 km's from anywhere you become a statistical outlier when your state of the art, postage stamp weight and size battery shits itself and you ain't goin' nowhere.
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2019, 04:45:37 AM
Joe, with the conventional lead acid battery, have you ever had a problem with boiling off electrolyte?
I have.
A volt gauge where you can keep an eye on it is a good idea.
In my experience, the overcharging happened when my engine was heat soaked, usually in the middle of a long ride. The VR just goes crazy. Having my battery boil dry is a good sign things are amiss.
I get the bike home (after refilling the battery) and let it cool down, go out and check the voltage and everything is fine @ ~14.8 volts. So yes, I found the problem to be intermittent.
Could someone check, I seem to recall that the GYSM lists 15.2 volts as the upper range of the charging current for the FJ's system.
I've had my battery boil dry about a half a dozen times in its 30 year life. Every single one of those times was when I was touring either in the south of France, Spain, Italy, or Yugoslavia (just before their war) and every one was after riding repeated long days involving both high miles and extended slow riding in heavy traffic, in extremely hot weather,
I learned to check my battery level daily in those conditions and to have a top-up bottle handy. I've never suffered such an issue at home, or when touring long distances in "normal" weather conditions (i.e., around 30 degrees C max).
The first time was when the bike was quite new and still under warranty and I had it checked out when I returned home and the main dealer could find nothing wrong with the electrical system.
So to summarise, I agree with Pat, it's intermittent, but it's also related to continued extreme heat while riding
We gotta ask ourselves....Why is the red plug melting?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
We gotta ask ourselves....Why is the red plug melting?
That's easy. The "best" poor design of the times.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 22, 2019, 01:40:45 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
We gotta ask ourselves....Why is the red plug melting?
That's easy. The "best" poor design of the times.
The plug or the VR?
I believe the plug problem is just a symptom of what's going on....
You know this idea of reducing the width of the I-4 engine by having the generator mounted behind the cylinders was a new concept developed by Yamaha debuting on the '84 FJ1100.
Yamaha claims to have shaved 4" off the width off the FJ engine by moving the generator from the conventional location off end of the crankshaft, to above the crank and behind the cylinders.
I remember Yamaha sales claim for the new 1984 flagship FJ1100 was that the engine was no wider than a 750cc I-4. Their competition in '84 was the narrow V-4 engine from the Honda VFR's.
My point is.... in an effort to focus on narrowing the engine width, perhaps the engineers at Yamaha forgot to take into account the long term effects of heat and vibration on the solid state components nestled in the generator?
Understandable after all, this location of the FJ generator was a new design.
Perhaps, Yamaha engineers didn't give a hooey whether the charging system would last for 30 years. Although Japanese vehicles have had a reputation for longevity and reliability, the manufacturers still want/need to sell you new vehicles.
BTW, I couldn't find the nefarious red plug. I did trace the wiring from the alternator to back next to the battery and found a white plug.
Joe
30 year VR Longevity? Yea, safe to say they missed that mark.
My first battery boil off was in 1988 and my bike was only 4 years old....
Ok, enough about the old days and on to Joe's problems...
Pat,
The "alternator mounted behind the cylinders" design was first introduced on the Yamaha Seca engine as early as 1980.
I believe it also debuted the YICS intake system which was not used on the FJ motor due to the superior flow of the FJ 4-valve head.
Thanks David, I did not know that.
Yep, here it is, plain as day
(http://resizer.shared.arcpublishing.com/leXP1wQQrQIl-s7zKAEKOwDeB5o=/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bonnier/public/ANTN4ZUW7TWFNHQ7XMJVAWNZZU.jpg)
Also I was doubly wrong, ever prior to Yamaha's Seca, I have been informed that Honda did this design on the CBX I-6
I am surprised Noel did not pick this up.....where is he?
Its time to give up on the reminiscing Pat....... the first Yamaha with that alternator location was the XJ 650/Seca 650 (not the Seca 750)......as a side bar, an interesting article here on the development of that bike - which possibly links in to why the FJ was such a hit for it's riding position and natural "feel", despite its bulk/size.
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/yamaha-handling/list/vol04/02.html
..old age plays havoc with the memory you know......... but I reckon you're defo right about the CBX beating Yamaha to it on a street bike. I remember how much better the CBX engine looked compared to the Benelli 750 Sei at the time........or at least, I think I do :sarcastic:
So.....back to Joe's problem !!!!!!!!!
While I'm not electrician, it would seem to me Joe, in really simple terms, that if the act of changing the battery meant that everything worked, then the issue most likely is either 1) a dud battery, or 2) a dud connection/earth that was disturbed when changing the battery.
If you're certain that all of the connections are good, then could you find a battery expert who could give you an opinion on its failure?. Also, have you tried charging the Li battery and putting it back on the bike?
Personally, I'd ride around with the lead acid battery on the bike and see what happens (if it drains quickly then you have a charging issue on the bike) and charge the Li battery in the garage, before trying it again to see if it too holds a charge.
What does bug me about the charging issue though is what Randy said a while back - at 7 volts from the Li battery, he said the lights should still come on - my thought would centre on the clock as well. When you had the total failure, was the clock still working ? (Mine always worked even when the battery wouldn't power the lights/starter) - if it was, then you didn't have a "total" electrical failure and I'd focus on understanding why the Li battery lost its charge.
Hope those ramblings make a bit of sense !!
Ok Cool, thanks Dean :flag_of_truce:
I still maintain that the oem FJ voltage regulator sucks. I do remember that most of my little electrical gremlins, blown dash bulbs, burned AGM, etc, went away the day I installed the Transpo VR.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 24, 2019, 12:24:29 AM
Ok Cool, thanks Dean :flag_of_truce:
I still maintain that the oem FJ voltage regulator sucks. I do remember that.
All my little electrical gremlins, blown dash bulbs, etc, went away the day I installed the Transpo VR.
LOL - I added my extra thoughts on the failure after I hit save on that post initially Pat - I agree on the VR being the issue if Joe's batteries both fail/discharge quickly, but if his failure was "total" and instant, I could also see it being more of a "disturbed" connection issue.
Trial and error testing to understand how the failure is occurring would be my approach - and once the problem is resolved, even it isn't the VR, then I'd change it anyway for the Transpo one, just to "future proof" my electrics a bit :good:
Quote from: Millietant on September 23, 2019, 11:56:23 PM
While I'm not electrician, it would seem to me Joe, in really simple terms, that if the act of changing the battery meant that everything worked, then the issue most likely is either 1) a dud battery, or 2) a dud connection/earth that was disturbed when changing the battery.
If you're certain that all of the connections are good, then could you find a battery expert who could give you an opinion on its failure?. Also, have you tried charging the Li battery and putting it back on the bike?
Personally, I'd ride around with the lead acid battery on the bike and see what happens (if it drains quickly then you have a charging issue on the bike) and charge the Li battery in the garage, before trying it again to see if it too holds a charge.
What does bug me about the charging issue though is what Randy said a while back - at 7 volts from the Li battery, he said the lights should still come on - my thought would centre on the clock as well. When you had the total failure, was the clock still working ? (Mine always worked even when the battery wouldn't power the lights/starter) - if it was, then you didn't have a "total" electrical failure and I'd focus on understanding why the Li battery lost its charge.
Hope those ramblings make a bit of sense !!
I hate commenting on things like this (Murphy's Law).
I had a new Li battery that lasted about 4 weeks, (if that) not sure if it completely died. As I tried to start the bike but just had no balls, even after charging. Got a replacement one sent at no charge and is still good, and it's a lot longer than 4 weeks. So maybe battery is a dud.
Cheers
Alan
In response to one member questioning why the lights were off when I tested the Li battery at 7.46V, I reinstalled said battery today. This battery has NOT been charged since the failure. Upon reinstalling, the battery now had 8.2V. The neutral indicator and running lights illuminated for about 15 or 20 seconds and then dimmed to dark. Battery voltage dropped to .30V before I ceased the test. Clearly the battery has some voltage left but little to no amperage capacity. I plan to comm with RPM regarding charging the battery as it came from them. I put the lead acid battery back in and the engine started right up. The thought process here is leaning more and more toward Pat's experience of a heat related charging error. A combination voltage and oil temp digital gage would be cool. I need to find one that is appropriately small for a motorcycle.
Joe
That battery is done. Discard it.
Okay, so here I am waiting for a tow truck. Story is, went for a ride today. Toward end of ride, the engine started cutting out when rolling on the throttle but intermittently. Finally, on Skyline Blvd in Daly City the engine died at a stop light. I pushed it off to a side street and tried bump starting, no joy. Plus I smelled gas fumes from the exhaust. No starter action when pressing start button. The fuel and oil lights illuminate though. Soooooo, do I have a bad Stop/Run switch or possibly a bad kickstand switch, neutral relay or something else.
i carried a multimeter with me today. Battery has 12.7 volts. Unlike last time it died, all light seem to work. I'm attaching a pic of the cluster when I depress the start switch.
Quote from: Tuned forks on October 05, 2019, 09:34:39 PM
No starter action when pressing start button. The fuel and oil lights illuminate though. Soooooo, do I have a bad Stop/Run switch or.....
Yep, a bad run stop switch.....or circuit.
The oil level and fuel lights illuminating when you press the starter is the key.
If the neutral light illuminates, does that typically mean the neutral relay is working?
Just got home. Nice driver.
Joe
I've never seen this type of motorcycle tow before.
Joe