Totally non-FJ question, and a bit of an intro to my problem...
I recently read some of the comments from Randy et al in the RPM parts update thread about power outages from the local equivalent of our Greedy Bunch of C@#ts.
I live in a rural area bordered by those pesky explosive eucalyptus trees, we are at the very end of our branch of the grid. The power comes on poles beside a beautiful tree lined road.
High wind or fires cut power pretty regularly. The family have coped with multi day power cuts, but it is really inconvenient having to get bags of ice to keep the freezer frozen, and the kids lose it when they can't 'talk' to their friends on social melodrama, or do some gaming.
I have a little 4kVa Honda petrol genset for the fire pumps, which I can use to power essentials for the house if we're not on fire.
LPG or other gas powered genset is no go for me. Diesel or petrol is the most available fuel (except for coal and that is out).
Like Randy I've been thinking of solar with battery storage.
FJ1200w mentioned UPS it got me thinking. I have several servers at work and bought a good UPS (I change them every 2 years for a new one) to keep them up long enough for a controlled shut down if the power fails (about 20 min). Been faultless.
Does anyone know of a system that uses solar battery storage with a genset charge cut-over which will operate like a UPS?
My ideal solution is one that operates like an auto/marine system where power goes from battery to system, and the battery is constantly charged from a generator/mains, and the battery+invertor etc. acts like a shock absorber from the generator/mains to the system.
This is so the power stays on when the mains cut, and the generator should kick in when the batteries drop below some defined lower limit.
I can't find one.
Troyskie
My eldest son lives on a property in the Pilliga north of Coonabarabran. He relies on solar charged batteries with a big gen to provide extra to run an air conditioner when required as his partner has MS. He is waiting for delivery of two new batteries from an Australian firm called Red Flow.
https://redflow.com/
Could be worth a look but they're not cheap but they have advantages over options like Tesla. They are being used as a solar charged backup for remote mobile phone towers in the event of power failure and some places in Africa where emergency back-up generators get stolen. He has fire fighting set up also. Two petrol powered pumps feeding roof sprinklers and a fire hose at each end of the house fed by a 25,000 litre water tank which is solely for firefighting. He has a second tank for domestic use.
Give the folks at Outback Power a shout. They specialize in off grid and grid tied systems.
Outback was one of the first to offer grid tied inverters that allowed you to use your solar system when the power went out. Now there are several. But be sure to check that the one you get. Has that ability.
I have the Pika system. 10,080 Watts.
G'day fellas,
Krusty, Pat, and Giant, great direction.
I chased down those names and found a local dude who is coming around both home and work to quote it up.
It won't be cheap, and as I don't have the quote I can't tell if I can afford it yet, but fingers crossed.
Troyskie,
I have not been keeping up with the home power systems, but even a few years back, there were a good number of battery chemistries available, not just lead-acid or lithium. You may want to look at fuel cells, too. They run on a variety of fuels now, and make house power with no engines involved. Google corporate runs entirely on fuel cells, and home-sized units are commercially available. I have no idea what technologies may be available there, but I'd want almost anything except a genset, no matter what fuel it needs.
.
Hey Red, I would like to learn more about residential fuel cells if you have a link.
I have found several old articles with the most recent being February of this year:
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/the-fuel-cell-powered-home-an-approaching-reality/
Cheers
Pat
Thanks Red. I will look into fuel cells. I last looked some years ago and it seemed like it would be ages before they were more commercially viable.
Regarding the genset, that is the final bit of redundancy in the system for when all else fails.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 31, 2019, 09:10:36 PMHey Red, I would like to learn more about residential fuel cells if you have a link.
I have found several old articles with the most recent being February of this year:
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/the-fuel-cell-powered-home-an-approaching-reality/
Cheers
Pat
Pat,
All of my research is old now, so you would do better with new Searches. I heard a Canadian outfit was selling them in California, and China has all sizes available. Some run on hydrogen (which you can crack for cheap from water and solar, or check out the new hydrolyzers). Some fuel cells run on the standard piped-in natural gas, or LNG from tanks. The house fuel cells are about the size of a clothes dryer, maybe as large as a refrigerator, and the hydrolyzers are a little smaller. Home fuel cell prices were running ~US$8k, but that may be better by now. Most off-grid power systems are being sold for the same money that you were paying to the power company, but the payments stop after you have paid it off. A guy in Denver was cracking hydrogen with a standard homestead windmill.
Our electrical utility in SoCal is an Investor Owned Utility (IOU) and as such, needs to make a profit every year for the stock holders in the company. A minimum dividend of 6% is needed to return to investors to keep the rats from abandoning a sinking ship.
The newest scam to defraud the customers is charging electrical rates based on time of use.
Proposed are 3 rate time slots, 1) On peak: 2pm-8pm @ $0.34 per kWh 2) Mid peak: 10am-2pm and 8pm-11pm @ $0.22 kWh and 3) Off peak: 11pm-10am @ $0.12 kWh
In my desert climate zone we need air conditioning in the afternoons and evenings. No way around it. Gotta have it. The building envelop is important, High Efficiency a/c is important, but even with that we are going to get absolutely screwed with these new time of use rates.
Here's a couple of things I'm looking at to shift the load off the $$$ on peak rate:
https://www.shoptinyhouses.com/products/humless-home-standard-6-5-generator (https://www.shoptinyhouses.com/products/humless-home-standard-6-5-generator)
The built in 3kW inverter can feed in PV power (if I wish) or if I don't have any PV panels, just plugging in the unit and charging the lithium batteries at night @ $0.12kWh and set the unit up to discharge the power durning the 2pm-8pm time slot so I don't get charged the outrageous rates by my IOU.
This is a very small 6.5kWh combination battery/inverter unit simple to install.
A more cost effective choice would be the larger Tesla Power Wall @ 14.0 kWh for about the same price.
Used just for load shifting (saving $0.22kWh) it's about a 7.2 year simple payback, based on $1,124 year one savings with a $9k installation cost.
The $1,124 year one savings will increase as the IOU increases the electric rates, averaging 4% per year increases. e.g. year two: $1,169 savings, year three: $1,215, year four: $1,264, etc, etc...
On second thought...I think I'll wait on the batteries for now with newer higher density stuff coming on line.
My point is, everybody's condition is a little different. It is best to get an proper evaluation from the experts.
I'm a big fan of Out Back Power.
Leave it to an Australian company to show the Americans how to design, build and install off grid and grid tied systems.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 31, 2019, 11:49:51 PMOn second thought...I think I'll wait on the batteries for now with newer higher density stuff coming on line.
My point is, everybody's condition is a little different. It is best to get an proper evaluation from the experts. I'm a big fan of Out Back Power. Leave it to an Australian company to show the Americans how to design, build and install off grid and grid tied systems.
Pat,
One alternative there might be cheaper; low energy-density batteries, and a lot of them. Saw one new technology being developed that uses salt water. :yes: Made me think of Jules Verne's Nautilus batteries (I think we have enough seawater).
I had the opposite problem; in Utah, USA, the winters are Polar. I found a guy with an "in" for clean fill dirt. He rented a BobCat, and installed earthwork berms all around my house, almost as high as the foundation/brickwork line. We used a Ditch Witch to dig a very narrow 6' (2m) deep trench all around the berms. We covered the berms with sheet plastic (the type of plastic which never decomposes underground). We ran the plastic sheets down from the foundation wall, down the berms, and to the bottoms of the ditch. He then added enough dirt to the berms to hide all of the plastic, and grow my ground-cover plants. It was all done before dinnertime, in one day. It cost me US$100 for the dirt, US$75 for the BobCat, and US$25 for the rolls of sheet plastic. Why?
The ground never freezes here below 3' (1m) deep. At 6' (2m) down, the ground does not get much below 50 degrees F (10C) in winter. The earth under the plastic loses all moisture, and becomes a dry brick worth of insulation; I had a yard (meter) or more of it, all around the house. The earth under the plastic sheet stays at the same temperature as the earth at the bottom of the ditch. Basically, I took the bottom half of the house (the coldest part) to about halfway to the Equator. The basement
never freezes now, and for US$200 invested, I pay about half of the heating bills that I once paid, now and forever. If you want a fancy name for the project, this is Passive GeoThermal Heating; heat is taken from the Earth into the house for cheap, with no maintenance, no pipes, and no moving parts. The house looks very normal outside; no neighbors even notice it. BTW, this same project also cools the house in summer now; that's free, too.
:yahoo:
By comparison, insulation and a stud wall with sheetrock, all around inside the foundation, would have cost me over US$5000, and done nothing more. That would be IF I did all of the work myself. :negative:
.
Thanks Red, that was very interesting. I've been a desert rat for so long I forget what folks have to do to keep heat within their homes.
A funny story about a friend of mine who was an a/c contractor. Joe was building his dream home and he wanted to get away from the inefficiency of an air cooled a/c condenser. We know that when it's 115* outside a 5 ton rated air cooled condenser will give you only 3.8-4.0 tons of cooling capacity. A water cooled co-axial unit was out of the question with the cost of water these days. So Joe decided to install a ground source heat pump aka Geo-thermal heat pump.
When it's 115* outside, 6 to 10 feet down it's much cooler ~78*. Joe dug down 15' and installed the copper condenser coils. He was worried about a rock puncturing the copper tubing so Joe used clean washed sand for his backfill.
He finished his home, moved in and his first summer electrical bills were crazy expensive. His multi speed Carrier high efficiency systems struggled to keep his house cool. He put his gauges on his system and it showed the compressor's head pressure to be dangerously high. His system was absorbing the heat in the home but not shedding the heat underground. The same symptoms as what happens when your outside condenser fan stops working, except Joe's system did not use a condenser fan. He kept access to bore hole 20' deep so he could monitor the underground temperature and yep, the underground temperature was still nice and cool.
His mistake: Joe used clean washed sand as a backfill to his coils. This washed sand had a very high silica content. The silica is a very effective insulator which was preventing the heat transfer from the hot coils into the cool earth.
Good news was that in his wisdom, Joe did not build any structures or concrete decking over the ground loops. Bad news was he had to carefully dig down and excavate all the silica sand away from his copper coils and replace it with pea gravel. Problem solved.
A very expensive lesson right there. Proof that the devil's in the details.
Cheers Red! Thanks again for the tip! Pat
I have worked on several ground scource heat pump systems over the years that the ground scource has failed over time.most were horizontal a few were vertical.The constant heating cooling of course causes expansion and contraction of the soil causing voids to form around the pipes and poor heat transfer.On one system that was only used for cooling I installed a small five ton fiberglass cooling tower.water usage wasn't any worse than a normal swamp cooler and water returning from the cooling tower was easily maintained in the sixtys or lower.I had a customer who manufactured PVC pipe and used two seventy ton chillers to cool their process water.I installed a two hundred ton fiberglass cooling tower to directly cool the process water and easily maintained water in the sixtys.I charged them $28,000 installed(back around 1999).they never used the mechanical chillers again.The first year they saved $ 92,000 in electricity.
Our local mall has 60 ton roof packs air cooled as part of their VAV system. Straight cooling, no heat. The building heat was provided by the lights and occupants.
Anyhoo these big air cooled roof pack a/c units struggled in the summer when roof surface temperatures exceeded 130*+, along with cooling down the required cfm's of Outside Air needed for occupancy ventilation.
To assist these roof packs in handling their cooling loads the mall installed these big barrel shaped evaporative pre-coolers to get the compressor head pressure down.
Unfortunately the precoolers lasted only for 3 summers before they ended up removing them.
I used to love evaporative cooling in my home. Turn on the cooler, crack the windows open, and get cool fresh air through out my house. Very cost effective using a 2 speed 1/2 hp evap.cooler fan motor vs an old 10 SEER 5 ton single speed central a/c system.
I've noticed in the last 5 years or so that the humidity in the desert has risen to a point that my cooler no longer works. (Need below 20%RH) The summer days are getting more and more humid, most over 30% RH.
I've also noticed that in the last 2 years my 21 SEER variable speed compressor, when the system is on low speed, uses the same amperage as my old evaporative cooler.
These new Mitsubishi mini split systems are the bomb. 1 condenser can handle 4 air handlers, each with their own individual room temperature control.
Central a/c with its leaky duct work is dead. Why cool the whole house?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 01, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
I've noticed in the last 5 years or so that the humidity in the desert has risen to a point that my cooler no longer works. (Need below 20%RH) The summer days are getting more and more humid, most over 30% RH.
Not just the So-Cal desert, we are experiencing the same thing up here in the Nor-Cal valley. Today the temp is going to be 100 and the humidity is expected to maintaining at the 30%+ mark. I don't mind the heat, it is the humidity that makes it uncomfortable.
Right now, the weather say 94 degrees and a "real feel" temp of 99 due to the 32% humidity level.
Randy - RPM
Troyskie,
I know the conversation here has wandered a bit, but I really had a point in there somewhere . . . Back-up power is great to have, no doubt, but it may be useful to consider what that power really needs to do. Cooling the freezer may be important for frozen foods, but what if all the food was safe, out on the pantry shelves, instead? My earthwork berms help to keep my place warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer, no charge. They are even decorative (my neighbors would not be happy if I covered my little place with solar cells, or had generators running constantly). Some people have rigged a car generator and battery to a stationary bicycle, and the kids can have all the entertainment they wish, but they need to pedal to get it. I hear it keeps them a bit more connected in reality, that way.
:biggrin:
Anyway, in years past, I have been thinking that my own power needs are not that much, and I'm always looking for new ways to cut the cords and maintain a good life. It's not a radical, driven attitude, but I do welcome the things that I can enjoy without a power cord. We have old coal-fired power plants here, and nobody should consider them to be "reliable." I can see a natural gas fuel cell happening here one day, but probably not a big one, and I may have a tank for it outside, in case the gas company fails, too.
My US$.02 worth. 8)
.
Thanks Red, I agree with your sentiment.
As a reformed city slicker cooling out in the country it is my absolute intention to minimise my power use.
When I built my house I went all out for passive heating/cooling. I angled the house to get winter sun in the windows and to keep the sun at less than 10 degree angle in summer. We are really well insulated compared to most around me, but not to the level of those in the snow.
On average if it is 100 outside, inside will be low 80s.
My shed is insulated too, but not as well, however I'm quite comfortable in my shed, even on the hottest days. The hottest I've ever had here was 49C, which is not crazy, but you don't want to be digging a trench that day. That day the shed temp inside never passed 40C. Man a cold beer that day went down well.
We do have aircon, a ducted split system, very efficient for what it is, similar to what Pat describes. We don't use it much, probably for about 1/3 of the year, and interestingly mostly for heating when early morning temps are at their lowest. Even when we do, with the insulation we shut it down once it takes the edge off.
I'm interested in back-up power for those times I really need it. Perhaps a little like those survivalist people you see on TV with bunkers, but I'm not at that level yet. My family however, well, they need their mod cons. When I'm home alone (very rare with young kids) my power usage is insignificant.
I'm not bothered by solar panels. When done well they look ok. Not as nice as my beautiful Colorbond roof of course.
When we get our power bill it is general pretty modest for the size house it is.
Travis, mate I love cooling towers, but it would never fly here for a couple of reasons. Mainly water is bloody expensive, and the inspection/certification of a cooling tower in Oz is pretty full-on. Finally, they are poo-pood by the sustainability crowd & the local council is beset by vocal lobbyists meaning certification is certain to be tough.
On another path, I also think of back-up power for work. I've a lot of equipment (welders, CNC stuff, etc.) that can't go without power and that is a background thought. I thought I'd prove my method at home and roll-out a bigger version at work.
I really love the idea of the power cells.
Troy
Storage is essential, pointless just feeding the grid while the sun shines and nothing for you to use at night.
Until there is cheaper storage costs, solar for me is pointless unless I start working night shifts and spend more time at home in daylight hours
Quote from: Sparky84 on September 02, 2019, 05:21:37 AM
Storage is essential, pointless just feeding the grid while the sun shines and nothing for you to use at night.
Here in Calif we have "Net Metering" where the kWh you put into the grid during daylight hours from your PV or wind system gets credited against the kWh you take from the grid at night.
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 01, 2019, 07:17:11 PM
Right now, the weather say 94 degrees and a "real feel" temp of 99 due to the 32% humidity level.
Randy - RPM
In the DC area, we typically have summer days in the mid to high 90s with humidity at 60+%. The house gets closed up in June and windows don't open until late September. You walk outside and drip.
We went to a pellet stove last year to supplement our heat pump. Heat pumps suck. Pellet stove works great. Just got 2 tons of pellets delivered, which should take us through most of the winter.
Note on power. The FAA TRACONs and Air Traffic Control Centers have a massive bank of batteries to provide uninterrupted power until the numerous huge generators kick on. Usually works pretty well.
We have net metering here in Wisconsin too. All of the utilities are trying to get rid of it. WE energies tried to get rid of it. Luckily we have Renew Wisconsin. They fought them in court. And actually won for now...
So then they just tried to put a sir charge on the kw's that you produce. Thanks for again Renew Wisconsin. That didn't pass
Quote from: giantkiller on September 03, 2019, 09:29:56 AM
We have net metering here in Wisconsin too. All of the utilities are trying to get rid of it.
Yep, same here in Calif. We are under a constant stream of challenges from utilities.
It's like playing Wack a Mole, they pop back up every year.
The thought of wide spread adoption of roof top solar frightens utilities. It turns their business model upside down. For an investor owned utility, who in their right mind is going to buy stock in a company that is losing customers?
So the old concept of charging customers based on the amount of kWh use is gone.
Now it's about the amount and time of use.
[rant on] Remember in old days the utilities worried about "on peak" hours of electrical use which was 11am to 6pm?
Oh wait, now the "on peak" times are 2pm to 8pm. This was done to negate any credits from PV solar production.
Utilities realize that very little PV production occurs after 3pm or 4pm at the latest. They structured their time of use rates to get the maximum money out of the customer at the time when the roof top PV system is not producing, or producing very little. [rant off]
In fairness to utilities, folks who stay connected to the electrical grid with grid tied PV systems should not get a free ride. With Net Metering, even if their PV solar output evens out with their night time use, the customers should still pay the utility a small charge to maintain the grid.
The devil's in the details.
I have a monthly maintenance charge. And a monthly charge to pay for the low income people. But they say that they don't make any money off me to add to the. Monthly maintenance charges. Because they don't sell enough to me. Well I have to over produce. To break even. Because I get paid less for what I produce than what they charge me when I have buy from them. And they're making a profit selling the electricity I overproduce to my neighbors.
Oh yeah maintenance on the lines that are already there weather I had built my house or not.
How about this....there are spots in the nation where the property owner is required to pay to the electric utility an annual assessment on their property taxes, even if they are totally off grid.
If you have utility lines by your property, you pay the assessment, even though you are not connected.
I'm telling you, it's Wack a Mole.....
I have a friend in Danville that has rooftop solar but must pay over $500/year for a "connectivity fee".
Yes Pat, I would imagine that the utility companies are concerned about their old business model and are looking for other ways to charge us. I would also imagine they will get the states to mandate utility connection for new home construction.
That's why we call them Pigs Greed & Extortion up here (PG&E).
Joe
Just to stir the pot a little. When it comes to natural gas supply, I'm told we in Australia pay some of the highest rates in the world, and we are soon to become the worlds biggest gas exporter :crazy:.
Another 'utility' I pay for, but don't use, is sewer. All my sewer is processed and kept on-site. In 13 years I've never had a pump-out. Once processed the 'clear' water is sprayed on designated parts of the garden (damn handy during this drought).
But, just like Pat's connectivity fee, I have to pay an annual sewer 'contribution' to the local council. The nearest sewer line is a couple of miles away (yep miles, not kilometres).
At least if I go totally off grid for electricity at home I won't pay a brass razoo (although they'll find a way I'm sure).
Just something to consider.....Since electricity has no shelf life it is a pure on-demand commodity. Flip the switch and you expect (even demand) that it be available. That requires the utility to do a monumental job of juggling to meet expectations. On a rainy day demand soars and on a sunny day it collapses. Guess which day they have to design for? More so, what do you do on a sunny day with your excess capacity. Since there is no viable way to store the excess you have to shut it down. True, the grid helps by allowing shunting of power between areas but that is only a partial solution.
If Pat wants to be paid what the utility charges all he needs to do is create a utility with an obligation to serve to find out why there is such a disparity in rates. :flag_of_truce:
OOPS, sorry Pat...it wasn't your comment....
Just thought of a swell alternative. Get rid of the Utilitity's obligation to serve! Just like Walmart isn't required to sell guns and ammo. If the Utility runs out of capacity they just say "sorry we're sold out today...maybe tomorrow?"
That. Obligation to serve is there wether or not. I'm producing free electricity. For them to sell and make a profit from. So why do they keep lying and saying that I'm costing everyone else. I guarantee I'M making more for the utilities than any of my neighbors. At no additional cost to the utilities. Other than the initial hook up. Wich I paid a charge for the hook up. And like I said I also pay a monthly maintenance charge. And a monthly charge for low income people ...ect
Utilities try hard to provide power when needed, but what started this discussion was the need for back up power when the utility fails to serve. As our local utility defers maintenance, more and more power outages occur and folks are getting tired of them.
So Jack, an obligation to serve mandates an obligation to pay?
Even if the property owner is off grid, they still have an obligation to pay? Nope, not buying it.
I accept the need for a service charge for grid tied PV systems. That's fair, they should not get a free ride. Those folks should pay their fair share for keeping the grid maintained, after all they use it at night and on rainy days.
I agree, if you are totally off the grid, with no wires, you should not be liable as long as you can be denied service should you change your mind. The current fee structures are more a political debacle than anything else. Since public utilities are regulated they play the political game. Competition is the best solution to this. In PA we have that with the exception that transmission and distribution are still regulated so there is a fee for that. Not sure how the fees work for those that pump power back into the system. When the utilities don't get what they think they need from the PUC what options do they have but to cut costs. Tree trimming is wildly expensive and suburban folks really hate it. They're the first ones to complain when the power goes out though. Underground is a good choice for new developments but can you imagine the infrastructure costs to existing distribution?
In Calif we have 2 different types of utility companies, Investor Owned Utilities and Public Utilities.
There are 4 Investor Owned Utilities in Calif. 1) Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) 2) San Diego Gas & Electric (SDG&E) 3) Southern California Edison (SCE) and 4) Southern California Gas Company (SCG).
All the other utilities in Calif. are considered "public utilities" which by their charter are non-profit and owned by the public. The rates they set are only supposed to break even, with allowances for maintaining reserves. The Board of Directors of these companies are publicly elected.
Investor Owned Utilities have common stock that is traded daily on Wall St. and as such, they are owned by stock holders and they must make a profit to keep those stock holders happy. The more profit they make, the value of the stock shares increase. Happy Happy.
The electrical rates from PG&E and SCE are the highest in the nation. They are a monopoly. There is no competition (other than solar and wind) They own the land and equipment for the transmission and distribution systems, all the Right of Way, easements and in many cases they also own the generation facilities.
These Investor Owned Utilities play dirty pool. They will do anything they can to get more money from the customers.
Their mission is simple...to make as much money as possible and dodge whatever liability they can.
If it means deferring maintenance, so be it.
If it means finding a way to unreasonably discount the value of excess PV power sent into their grid, so they can turn around and sell it to the next door neighbor at their market rates, so be it. Happy Happy.
PG&E and SCE are on the hook for some very serious cash with recent liability for forest fires. Do you think the stock investors are going to take a hit? No, stock holders are quirky and they will sell off the stock when the stock value drops. When enough panicked stock holders sell, the company folds. So, to settle these lawsuits, where will the cash come from? Take a guess.
SCE has 2 nuclear reactors in San Onofre they have shut down. For over 40 years (since 1968) they've made very cheap electricity at less than $.01 per kWh and sold it to their customers at $0.13-$0.32 kWh. Decades they made an obscene profit but now it comes time to de-commission the nuclear reactors, so who is on the hook for those costs? Hint: It's not the stock holders. From the 1st day of the reactor commissioning in 1968 SCE has stored every spent fuel rod in a giant pool at San Onofre where they still sit today.
Who is on the hook for those costs? Take a guess.
Other than going off grid, customers are at the mercy of these crooks and just like the banks, they are considered by the politicians as too big to fail. They hold a significant influence over state government.
The oversight of these Investor Owned Utilities comes from a governor appointed board called the California Public Utilities Commission which is ironic because the 4 utilities they oversee are not Public Utilities at all.
Good explanation of California's system Pat.
Joe
Thanks Joe, I wish I could say that it's getting better....but....
Well, it is California after all. :crazy: (you know I'm teasing, right?)
You described a pretty messed up situation, what alternative would you prefer?
By the way, one need only look at SMUD to find a public utility that is seriously flawed too. Elected officials to run a technical operation?
Quote from: Motofun on September 05, 2019, 06:44:28 AM
You described a pretty messed up situation, what alternative would you prefer?
Goal: Take the excessive profit gouging and corporate greed out of the utility business.
Fair Competition won't work. No one wants a second set of utility lines adjacent to their property.
The only way I can think of is to convert the Investor Owned Utility over to a not for profit Public Utility.
Easier said than done.
That would require the state government to invoke eminent domain and billions of dollars of public money payment to the owners (shareholders) of these companies. The land, facilities and equipment is currently worth a lot of money. When the government takes private property for the public good they are required to pay "fair market value" when it condemns property.
A sneakier way would be to tank the stock value. That's the Achilles heel of these companies. Set up an environment where the stock holders panic. Let the companies go into receivership then buy the assets for pennies on the dollar, then turn them into a Public Utility. Hostile takeovers like this happens all the time on Wall St, but I'm not aware a governmental entity ever doing business this way.
Or....the government can promote a state wide PV program allowing homeowners to bypass the corporate greed all together. Allow the payment of incentives to homeowners to help offset the cost. Allow the property owner certain tax breaks to help pay for the system..... things like that.
Batteries are coming. Available now but more widespread within 1 or 2 years. If the Utilities want to change the rules on how the customer pays for their electricity, set up a governmental program that helps the homeowner offset the cost of the batteries.
Between high energy efficiency appliances, lighting and insulation, coupled with a modest PV system and a 14 or 28kWh battery system, along with some behavior changes, most homes can go totally off grid....ok, just to be safe, add a small natural gas generator or fuel cell in the mix as a safety back up....then the homeowner can finally tell Wall St. to go get fucked.
Where will the money for these programs ^^ come from? From shareholders.
Require the Investor Owned Utilities to set aside a small fraction of the profit they make to fund these programs. Make their annual stock dividend checks to their shareholders fractionally smaller.
As you may discern, I am not a fan (or shareholder) of SCE or PG&E.
Or at the very least. Stop them from screwing over the ones that are making the investment in solar. Or any other renewable energy.
So, use tax dollars to cut your electric bill? I'm sure there are some Public Utilities that are well run...I know of many that are not. The profit motive coupled with appropriate regulations (I can't believe I just said that) is a strong incentive for a well run organization. For my part I have given up on government run organizations doing anything efficiently. Recognize the the flip side of the profit coin is the risk. This doesn't exist for government organizations....they have no risk of loss. When the high speed train to no where "comes off the track" what does government do? Time and time again spend even more! A profit/risk is strong incentive for good decision making. Less government not more...at least for me.
Quote from: Motofun on September 05, 2019, 07:17:20 PM
Recognize the the flip side of the profit coin is the risk.....
That's just it.....I don't know of any risk the Investor Owned Utility faces.
They already have a monopoly, a captive market without competition and as such, a guaranteed source of revenue.
They already transfer any and all liabilities to their customers, never to their shareholders (God forbid)
In general, I favor private industry efficiencies over a government run program, with exceptions.
When there is fair competition to hold the free market accountable, I'm good to go, when there is not, I have a problem.
Let's talk perscription drug prices in the USA for example.
A $7 vial of insulin costing your insurance company $700.
There are times when it is entirely appropriate, even prudent for government to regulate business.
Business monopolies driven by profit and the bottom line, will go bonkers if left alone.
Not their fault, it's just their nature.
Didn't PG&E file for bankruptcy? I doubt the shareholders are profiting from that. Sure they probably own a lot of land and equipment but it doesn't cover the damages as I am told. What happens next? Sell everything off with the shareholders last in line for anything left? Reorganize and try to recover...note this is the bankruptcy law controlled by an elected judge. If it were a Public Utility how would things be any different except there would be no one at fault and the taxpayers (ie the default owners) left holding the bag. Someone always owns the risk.
Utilities are not a good use case for free-market capitalism. A water department can be a lot more profitable if they cut back on maintenance and water treatment, but does that mean that the guy who changed water sources in Flint MI did the exact right thing since it cut his costs in the short term? Socialism sucks at some things that free-market capitalism does really well - but there are some things that socialism just works better at, where free-market capitalism would be the exact wrong tool for that job. Nobody
I promise you, you do NOT want to give me a crack at making a for-profit fire department. I mean, *I* am starting to like this idea, as I get a little more start-up capital appearing on the horizon. There's definitely enough for me to buy out a municipal fire department, re-hire the recently-laid-off firemen, advertise for some subscribers, and pay an arson fine or two. But I don't think the residents in my subscription area are gonna like it much once the low, low introductory subscription rate expires.
Jack, you aren't seriously going to argue that your nuclear plant would have worked better without NRC and OSHA oversight, are you? I mean, as a fan of unfettered business operations like the rest of the owner class, I myself would have appreciated the stronger financial performance your plant could have had if they hadn't bothered buying dosimeters, reading dosimeters, having you fill out Form 4s, managing you and your colleagues to limit all of you to 5 R each year, etc. And maybe you yourself would have appreciated the overtime you could have gotten if we didn't bother monitoring radiation exposure.
But as an FJ rally attendee, I kind of like the fact that you didn't die of leukemia ten years ago, even if it means you're paying $0.13/kWh rather than having Nancy pay $0.11/kWh.
Quote from: Motofun on September 06, 2019, 09:32:43 AM
Didn't PG&E file for bankruptcy? I doubt the shareholders are profiting from that....
Yes, they did file Chapter 11 reorganization, protection from creditors.
Nothing new, they did this before back in 2001 and as of today, 18 years later, the customers are still paying off the bond costs on their electrical bill (see on bill: DWR Bond Charge)
Will the customer's power bill increase? Yes, just like the last time (2001)
Will the stockholders lose their dividend checks? Maybe, remains to be seen, it's up to the courts.
Will the stockholders be wiped out? No, not if they sell (which they are) ....PG&E stock dropped from $70 a share in 2017 to $10.24 per share today. This is even before the fire liability settlements are financed (bond sales).
Here's a new law SB901 passed a year ago in California the passes the fire liability costs on to the ratepayers (see #14 and Sec.451) This should help the stock stabilize.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB901 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB901)
$14B and someone's gonna pay, someone's on the hook, the rats have already left the ship, care to guess who is left? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pg-e-seeks-more-14-090101500.html
Quote from: Bill_Rockoff on September 06, 2019, 10:05:51 AM
I promise you, you do NOT want to give me a crack at making a for-profit fire department. I mean, *I* am starting to like this idea.........But I don't think the residents in my subscription area are gonna like it much once the low, low introductory subscription rate expires.
Funny thing is Bill, that's how the whole assessment district concept started.
Ben Franklin's idea for funding fire protection in Philadelphia.
Something about the threat of fire loosens the purse strings of even the stingiest.
he he he