Hello everyone! '86 FJ owner here. I had a dyna 2000 on this bike that went bad, as soon as it got hot it wouldn't fire 1 of the coils. We went back to the stock ignition and things have been peachy.
After that was done, we added in the coil relay mod which seems to be so popular on here. The thing is, compared to the diagram that is always shown on here, we had to switch 86 and 87. Currently, 86 is going to the coils and 87 is going to the ignitor- this is how it it will actually run and drive, but is opposite to how the diagram off here shows. Testing the wires, with the ignition on but bike not running, the wire coming FROM the coils is sitting at 10 volts. The wire from the ignitor is zero.
I know very little about mechanics and even less about electricity, so am relying on help from a mechanic as well as work's resident low voltage electrical guy. They both separately and had to wire it up the same way to get it working (with 86 going to the coils and 87 to the ignitor).
I mean, it's running fine as far as anyone's aware, so maybe I shouldn't be looking a gift horse in the mouth. Just seems odd that a hundred people have done this and then we are backwards. Unless I'm misunderstanding things and this is how it's supposed to be. But it seems weird to me the the wire from the coils is showing voltage. Any ideas?
What are the other 2 connections on the relay connected to?
You write: "Testing the wires, with the ignition on but bike not running, the wire coming FROM the coils is sitting at 10 volts. The wire from the ignitor is zero."
What color are these wires on the bike's wire harness?
Quote from: Canada.Mach on July 26, 2019, 04:06:21 PM
The thing is, compared to the diagram that is always shown on here, we had to switch 86 and 87. Currently, 86 is going to the coils and 87 is going to the ignitor- this is how it it will actually run and drive, but is opposite to how the diagram off here shows.
.....Any ideas?
Here's a question for you:
When you bought the relay, did it have a wiring diagram exactly like this?
(http://www.auto-relay.com/upload/img/20131029/12V_30A_Automotive_Relay2.jpg)
When doing this mod, it is better to use a 5 pin normally open relay rather than a cross over relay.
I use a Narva 68024BL
(//)
Connect the wire from the battery to terminal 30 then each coil connects to one of the terminals 87.
This saves multiple connections to one terminal.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 26, 2019, 04:59:14 PM
What are the other 2 connections on the relay connected to?
You write: "Testing the wires, with the ignition on but bike not running, the wire coming FROM the coils is sitting at 10 volts. The wire from the ignitor is zero."
What color are these wires on the bike's wire harness?
85 is grounded directly to negative battery terminal, 30 is direct to battery with a 10 amp fuse in between. 87a has nothing connected.
The wires are red with a white stripe. As I understand it, it was basically cut, and these ends were connected to the relay (86 and 87 as described in initial post)
Pat, I will double check that when I get back to the bike but I am 99% sure it is the same as your picture. I bought one from RPM when I got some engine bars and other goodies, that one as well as one from work gave the same result i was told.
Fj-13a, m what do you mean about multiple connections to one terminal?
Quote from: Canada.Mach on July 26, 2019, 11:02:45 PM
85 is grounded directly to negative battery terminal, 30 is direct to battery with a 10 amp fuse in between. 87a has nothing connected.
Correct, so far.
Quote from: Canada.Mach on July 26, 2019, 11:02:45 PM
The wires are red with a white stripe. As I understand it, it was basically cut, and these ends were connected to the relay (86 and 87 as described in initial post)
In your case, one of the red with a white stripe wires should be connected to terminal 86 of the new coil relay, the other terminated in a suitable connector to prevent shorting to the frame.
Terminal 87 should then be connected to each coil where the original red and white wires were connected.
When I do this mod, I shall be using two 68024BL relays in this configuration.
Gavin
Thanks for the help! After a reading that and looking at other posts, I now realize my mechanic did it a bit wrong (and our electrical guy just knows electrical, so was making sure it was good on that front). And now I'm feeling a little dumb for not catching this sooner, because the way it is we are still just going through the stock wires! D'oh!
someone said the stock wires route through the ignition switch even, so maybe that is why with the key on we reading 10v from the "coil" end? And I guess, is it possible we have screwed something up having this relay wired all silly like? (Have ridden about 10 hours/500km since, but last night I went to go for a ride and had zero electrical power when I turned the key on, not even lights. Am hoping something just came loose, since all was good when I rode home earlier that day)
Anyway, so the correct way to do this is as you say- hook up the wire from the igniter to 86, terminate the other end of the original wire, and then run new wires to the coils like you say. Now that I have the time to tinker myself, I will give it a shot! (Right after I figure out why I suddenly had 0 electrical power when I went to go for a ride last night..)
Quote from: fj-f3a on July 27, 2019, 06:42:01 AM
Quote from: Canada.Mach on July 26, 2019, 11:02:45 PM
85 is grounded directly to negative battery terminal, 30 is direct to battery with a 10 amp fuse in between. 87a has nothing connected.
Correct, so far.
Quote from: Canada.Mach on July 26, 2019, 11:02:45 PM
The wires are red with a white stripe. As I understand it, it was basically cut, and these ends were connected to the relay (86 and 87 as described in initial post)
In your case, one of the red with a white stripe wires should be connected to terminal 86 of the new coil relay, the other terminated in a suitable connector to prevent shorting to the frame.
Terminal 87 should then be connected to each coil where the original red and white wires were connected.
When I do this mod, I shall be using two 68024BL relays in this configuration.
Gavin
Gavin, I thought I followed everything until you posted that diagram. Why are you using 2 relays, and how is that working? Is there an advantage to that configuration?
The twin relay setup keeps the installation neat and tidy.
When doing any electrical work on your FJ, it is imperative that you use the correct tooling and techniques.
Consider using a connector like this.
http://www.vintageconnections.com/Products/Detail/132 (http://www.vintageconnections.com/Products/Detail/132)
Also, use the correct crimping tool. A proper "Crimp" connection is Far Superior to solder joints.
These connectors will not fit the original connectors on the FJ, although they look similar, so you will have to replace the original connectors by removing the spade terminals from the plastic shroud and fitting them into the new shrouds.
Not a hard job.
Ultimately, what you want to manufacture is a "Plug In" relay/lead assembly which simply "Plugs in between" the original connectors.
Later this evening (Australian time), I shall post some more diagrams for a clearer explanation.
Gavin
That would be awesome, thanks a bunch! On the relays you posted, could you not have power on 30, and then each 87 outputting to a single coil?
Am I right in thinking on that diagram of two relays, the power from the battery goes to 87, and "jumpers over" to the other relay via the second 87, and then when the relay is activated it gets sent to the coil through 30? Also You have red/white going into both relays, where did those come from? From the ignitor there's only one that I saw, does it split further up the wire bundle?
Those gold connections look like what we used, they had two crimp points. it crimped on the wire bare wire with a crimping tool, then a dab of solder, then crimped on the insulated wire and heat shrink. We did not add in plugs like shown because we were clearly way off the intended mark
A plug in deal sounds exactly like what is best- then if something fails you can avoid the relay and go back to "stock" setup in a pinch, correct?
I think I am also confused on the orange and brown wires..what is done with those? They get added into the new connection you showed, correct? Or if I were to keep old connections, the new wire from the relay would get plugged into the existing connectors (or connected to the existing red/white wire)?
(I realize I sound super green, I'm definitely at the start of the learning curve here!)
Looking to do this relay mod myself, just to understand a little bit better. The red/white wire on the coil is what's used to power up the relay(s). The factory feed wires to the coils do they get removed for the new wire coming from the relay or do you just splice into them. Thanks.
The first Diagram is the current set up.
The second diagram is the configuration for a single 5 pin "Normally Open Relay".
If you use a cross over relay, you will have to terminate the two wires going from the relay to the coils, to the single pin 87.
The third diagram is the configuration for a twin 5 pin "Normally Open Relay".
When doing the relay modification, remove the original plastic shrouds and replace with aftermarket shrouds.
You can use any two pin 6.3mm connectors but the connectors in the link above are the closest I have found to original.
Gavin
Thank you. That cleared up my concerns. The orange and gray wire must be negative?
The Orange and Grey wires go to the Ignition Unit and control the Current in the "Primary Winding" of the Coil.
When the Ignition unit connects either of these wires to Ground (0 volts), current flows in the Primary Winding (approx 6 amps). This is the "Dwell Time".
When the Ignition Unit open circuits either of these wires, current in the Primary Winding ceases.
This causes the Magnetic Field to collapse on produces a high (20,000 +) voltage in the coils Secondary winding to fire the Spark Plug.
It is imperative that these wires be correctly connected as depicted.
Gavin
Thanks I just like to be sure before I mess with anything that could render my bike out of commission or ruin a perfectly good part out of stupidity. I have a good automotive background with newer vehicles and tractors/ big diesels but only have personal experience with bikes let alone the age gap (almost never seen the good old stuff in shops)
Thanks Gavin (fj-f3a) for your help in this thread. Your expertise is apparent.
A question to the OP Canada-Mach and to Dieselman7.3.
Here is the wiring diagram we use showing the wiring of the coil relay:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/1121_20_02_16_3_22_39.jpeg)
We want your input. What is confusing about this ^^^ diagram?
What can we do to make this wiring diagram more clear?
In our Modification Files we have this Coil Relay topic archived:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0)
Thanks for the help guys. If our existing diagram is giving you heartburn, help us make it better.
Cheers
Pat
Pat, when I made the coil relay mod before the 2019 WCR, that diagram was particularly useful. The colors were spot on for my FJ. It took awhile to find the wires and I was meticulous in reading the diagram and making sure the wiring was correct. Many such diagrams are black and white. Having that one in color helps as well.
Joe
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 28, 2019, 10:50:56 PM
Thanks Gavin (fj-f3a) for your help in this thread. Your expertise is apparent.
A question to the OP Canada-Mach and to Dieselman7.3.
Here is the wiring diagram we use showing the wiring of the coil relay:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/1121_20_02_16_3_22_39.jpeg)
We want your input. What is confusing about this ^^^ diagram?
What can we do to make this wiring diagram more clear?
In our Modification Files we have this Coil Relay topic archived:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0)
Thanks for the help guys. If our existing diagram is giving you heartburn, help us make it better.
Cheers
Pat
This diagram is very helpful. The only part that confused me was the red/white wire I gues I didn't realize it was being used as the signal wire for the relay. So if I'm correct that is the factory power wire to the coils. My only question now is. What size fuse should I use from the battery? I have a ton of relays and etc. so I think I'm going to go with two separate relays and fuses Thanks
Make sure you choose a "Quality, multi-strand cable" to run from the battery to the relay(s). I would recommend a cross sectional area of at least 4mm square. You could comfortably use a 25A fuse with this cable and it will give you power in reserve for, say, driving lights, or a good horn. The larger the cable, the less Voltage Drop.
Use the correct crimping tool and connectors. I do not have a ring type terminal to show you but you will get an idea of what I mean by the terminals in the photo.
You should be able to purchase a Quality Inline Fuse Holder with 4mm "Flying Leads". Simply crimp a 4mm (yellow) ring with the correct size hole (8mm, I think) to one cable and connect the other end to the 4mm relay cable using the tunnel connector (shown). Try to avoid soldering unless the joint is "Really Well Supported". Solder joints and vibration don't mix!
With regards to the terminals in the photo, Red insulated terminals are for 1.5mm cable, Blue for 2.5mm and Yellow (shown) for 4mm square cable.
Being short in length, the wires from the relay to the coils need only be 1.5mm or 2.5mm square. Again, use the correct crimp tool to terminate the brass spade terminals.
The starter motor solenoid as depicted in the diagram Pat posted, is the best to connect to.
Gavin
4mm should be what about 10ga wire? That's what I was planning on using and the heat shrink but connectors tend to hold good against corrosion (typically what I use on vehicles and ATVs so they stay water tight) and just to be on the safe side I probably won't splice anything else to that circuit. I don't mind spending the little extra for more wire/fuse/ relays to keep things on there our circuit (not saying it's bad too just my own opinion/ preference)
10 AWG = 6mm
12 AWG = 4mm
Got a bit sidetracked here, sorry for the delay. But, thanks for all the help everyone! I'll be rewiring this sometime this week hopefully.
And Pat, between the diagram and post everything is pretty well explained I'd say. If I'd done it myself I'd have been double checking that post every 2 minutes, and probably would have turned out alright. Or at least known where I was being held up (maybe the jumpers for orange/gray would've got me confused, I think). Why the mechanic got mixed up the way he did, I couldn't say- I had printed out the diagram and post you linked for him.
I'm pretty inexperienced mechanically, if something on the car/truck breaks I'll learn to fix it and that's about it. The bike usually goes to the mechanic because he'll be smarter and faster (not much summer in Canada), plus I guess I'm a bit intimidated and don't want things to get crashy if I screw up. But I'm trying to find the time to ease myself into bike repairs/maintenance, so I'm learning! I've never touched anything electrical before, as you can see by my game of 20 questions on here!
As for the diagram, maybe one improvement that could be made is to identify the wires as "old" or "existing", and "new"? But, like you say- that diagram has been used for years by members, so maybe there's no reason to bother overexplaining things just because I came along and got confused!
Gavin's post on Page 1 clears things right up for me, the diagrams. It shows pretty clearly what's going where, and how the relay can be bypassed to hookup in the original configuration.
Thanks again everyone, I'll report back when I've got it working or blown something up!
Hi
Just a warning, I noticed on my FJ1200 that the earth wire connected on the side of the coilfitting was very corroded, clean this, otherwise you might have trouble...check the main earth wire connected to the back of the engineblock too, while you're at it...
Cheers, Tom.
I wanted to give this topic an update. I have been helping another owner with an 89' with starting problems. Very fresh engine, 4 brush starter, rebuilt carbs, new AGM battery on a tender, good fuel pump etc. It got to a point that it just would not start. Prior to this, once started it ran quite well.
Fuel, air, fire.
Its getting a proper amount of fuel. The air, carbs, filters looked good in my opinion. I recommended the relay mod for the coils. A little time gathering the materials and drive south, the fun begins. Prior to this mod, the bike failed to start 3 times in a row with time between to charge the battery. It was clearly getting fuel (you could smell it) and the starter spun the engine, I could see the choke linkage moving on the carbs. The plugs sparked but hard to tell how good the spark was. Measuring the voltage before and after at the coils was a good indicator. Before the mod the voltage drop was 2.1VDC. After the mod 0.3VDC.
After the mod the bike fired up like it should. It now has over 5+ starts in a row over the last few days with zero issues. For $15 to $20 in parts and a little time, you can get full battery voltage to your coils. These bikes are aging, some systems need an update/bypass.