After I put my 93 back to heather after removing the head for an oil leak I noticed a new rattle. I rode it because I thought it was something loose on the fairing or something
Today I removed the tank and it sure sounds like it is coming from the valve cover area.
I removed the valve cover and all looked good. Cam caps tight chain tight head bolts tight.
When moving stuff in an effort to stop it nothing seems to help.
Thanks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OJlk3RX63cA
Also only at exactly 2000 rpm.
I'm not an expert but the rhythm sounds like the cam chain.you would think that noise would leave some visible signs of rubbing.
Paul, that's an unusual noise. I have heard some strange sounds coming from loose or mal-aligned exhaust systems in the past.
I suggest that you loosen the exhaust nuts and make certain that it is mounted properly and re-tighten.
Regards, Pete.
Paul,
Take a picture of the head/cams with the valve cover removed please.
Secondly, you installed the tensioner with the locking paw down?
Randy - RPM
1 the exhaust. At first I thought it was coming from there also but no leaks.
I'll check again.
Randy
Will do so today and from that I recall it only goes in one way no? I thought the best bolts did not lineup I thought.
Thanks.
The tensioner can be installed upside down. With the locking mechanism up.
I am 99.5 % sure it is correct but I am going to check it. I read from the form about the notches facing down.
Ok. Chain adjuster with ratchets down as in photo
Also checked cam gears as I replaced them. Right.
Exhaust pipes Are tight but not removed and replaced yet
Valve cover is still off Randy /Robert is you need any other photos.
Also I forgot to say the hard plastic cam chain guide. I put it in backwards and it got bent.
You bent it back to what I thought was correct. Not sure if that could have something to do with it or not
Thanks as always.
Quote from: Paul.1478 on April 10, 2019, 04:41:00 PM
Valve cover is still off Randy /Robert is you need any other photos.
Also I forgot to say the hard plastic cam chain guide. I put it in backwards and it got bent.
You bent it back to what I thought was correct. Not sure if that could have something to do with it or not
Thanks as always.
Which guide got bent?
And we bent it back?
Randy - RPM
Sorry exhaust side.
I (not you sorry ) bent it back so it fit back in the slot in the head. I have no idea how it was before.
Intake one never was removed.
On the pick of camchain tensioner it looks like the shaft is retracted if the spring is inside on the pick the tenioner is damaged.
The sound is similar i had on my 1100. It has double walled headerpipes that rusted lose inside and rattled.You have a 1200 and those has single walled pipes .If you did not changed over to 1100
headers its not that.Just asked because the headerpipes you got looks like black chrome
Exhaust can leak even if it seems tight. I think that's the easiest to check and you should've started from there. Like someone said, get everything loose, maybe change the crush gaskets at the ports and retighten in the correct order. This way you are catching gremlins on three fronts.
Some really weird sounds can be heard if it is leaking between head and pipes. To the point you think your bike will fall apart in seconds...
Quote from: Old Rider on April 11, 2019, 01:19:44 AM
On the pick of camchain tensioner it looks like the shaft is retracted if the spring is inside on the pick the tenioner is damaged.
The sound is similar i had on my 1100. It has double walled headerpipes that rusted lose inside and rattled.You have a 1200 and those has single walled pipes .If you did not changed over to 1100
headers its not that.Just asked because the headerpipes you got looks like black chrome
I removed the spring before taking the tensioner out and retracted the arm.
yes they are 1200 pipes, single wall.
Quote from: balky1 on April 11, 2019, 01:51:19 AM
Exhaust can leak even if it seems tight. I think that's the easiest to check and you should've started from there. Like someone said, get everything loose, maybe change the crush gaskets at the ports and retighten in the correct order. This way you are catching gremlins on three fronts.
Some really weird sounds can be heard if it is leaking between head and pipes. To the point you think your bike will fall apart in seconds...
I am thinking the exhaust is also possible as well because it is only at exactly 2000 RMP, not above not below. I removed the valve cover because I had Randy's attention and had only about 30 min to work in it yesterday and to be honest was not sure I put it all back together right.
I am flying to Sacramento tomorrow morning so I will have only about a hour to do something today, I will remove the exhaust and put them back.
I have already replaced the gaskets and the order is correct. I found them numbered.
Thanks for the input.
Check for exhaust leak at night with the lights off. You should be able to see flashes at the header pipe/head joint.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 11, 2019, 01:22:58 PM
Check for exhaust leak at night with the lights off. You should be able to see flashes at the header pipe/head joint.
Good idea and I will but I am 99.43% sure there is no exhaust leak. just that rattle at 2000 RPM.
There was when I first put it back together but that was because I had 2-3 pipes mixed up.
They may be misaligned causing rattling. I hope to have time tonight to take them off one at a time and be sure they are seated properly.
OR it can be coming from some innocent place but I cant find it.
All the parts in the head look good to me.
Are you sure it's not something in the fairing resonating at that RPM?
The front guide should have a nice curved arc.
See the two photos here: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=36Y-12251-00 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=36Y-12251-00)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 11, 2019, 08:39:54 PM
Are you sure it's not something in the fairing resonating at that RPM?
No I am not sure at all. I wanted to eliminate the thought of it coming from the motor.
I did find one of the metal break line (maybe for abs?) right above the valve cover that was loose in the metal holder. The rubber mount came out. When I get back I'm going to remove exhaust and put it back. If that does not do it maybe I'll pull the fairing off.
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 11, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
The front guide should have a nice curved arc.
See the two photos here: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=36Y-12251-00 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=36Y-12251-00)
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy.
I bent it until it fit back into the slot in the head.
I was going to come by Monday for a quick
Visit and If you have them in stock I may just get one and replace it.
This is still driving me nuts. I have removed the valve cover and re-re-checked everything.
removed the exhaust and put them back on, just removed the fairing yesterday and still makes the exact same noise. It is very hard to tell where it is coming from depending on were you stand. Sometimes sounds like coming from the valve cover sometime the fairing some times the exhaust.
Could I remove the exhaust and start it or will this do something bad to the valves (cold air?). I figure if I remove it from the equation like the fairing it will limit the places it can be.
Thanks
Okay i think i see whats wrong it is the front cam chain slider .It is supposed to stick a little above the gasketsurface mayby 5 millimeter your is to far down into the slot.
do you think that could make it make this notice? I don't know.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OJlk3RX63cA
Quote from: Paul.1478 on May 03, 2019, 09:45:38 AM
do you think that could make it make this notice? I don't know.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OJlk3RX63cA
Im not sure but mayby the chain gets wrong tension and slap up in the valvecover .The sound also sound like vibration have you checked the clutch line or something lose ?.
You can start engine without the headers.When i now locked at the pictures again im not 100% sure that the slider is to far down but it looks like it is.If you have a pick from side its easier to see.
On mine the front slider sticks 4-5 mm above valvecover gasket surface
Find a stetoscope and try to check with it.
Start it up without the header pipes on and I can guarantee that you will not hear a rattle.
You sir are 100 percent correct.
I think I know what it is now after speaking to Robert. I fixed this.
Problem is now the cam cap threads I had "fixed" in the head by a local machine shop are F-ED.
I have a new helicoil but it also is not working. It will not tighten down.
Check the for sell tomorrow. I good deal in a 93 is coming....
"Check the for sell tomorrow. I good deal in a 93 is coming...."
Yep, know the feeling.
You've done great work so far. You're close to that 'aaaaah' moment.... and at the end it will be a bike you can trust.
cam camps fixed by a good friend. Noise gone. it was the cam chain guide on the exhaust side. it was not located correctly.
now the bike has a huge leak and not from the valve cover. not sure how that is possible because it was not leaking before and I only removed the valve cover.
Oil cleaned and corn powder going on tonight or tomorrow to try and ID the location of the leak.
This bike is trying my patience and I am about out of patience.
after a lot of cleaning I have located the leak. exhaust side 2 find above the base gasket in the middle. I called Robert and he was kind enough to talk to me. Told me it was likely coming from the cam chain tensioner. I thought strange a leak from the opposite side can show. He told me the area of the leak is a passage. Totally makes sense. I had that out.
so I removed it, cleaned it well and even added a little gasket maker. it is drying not but I am confident that this is it.
Once again great advise from RPM, always friendly and willing to help!
I completely agree about the generosity of time and advice that Robert provides.
Joe
Looks like your bike is a little bitchy and dont like beeing fixed.My bike is a real bitch everything i try to fix has to be done 3 - 4 times before its right. And today i lost my front brakes when out riding
then i did try to bleed them but of cource the master cylinder seems to be gone to bed :bye2: and yesterday the almost new valvecovergasket started to leak WTF !!
ahhhh good! someone beside me with this issue! im hopping this will be one of the few trips into the head excluding valve checking.
Quote from: Paul.1478 on May 13, 2019, 12:28:05 PM
ahhhh good! someone beside me with this issue! im hopping this will be one of the few trips into the head excluding valve checking.
While we're talking rattles - my 88 has what sounds to me like a rattling clutch. Runs fine, clutch in, in gear, rattles. Clutch out and rolling, all's quiet. Pretending it's a Ducati hasn't made it any more enjoyable. Any ideas?
Wpete
Quote from: Old Rider on May 13, 2019, 12:17:56 PM
and yesterday the almost new valvecovergasket started to leak WTF !!
You didn't buy one of those cheap Chinese valve cover gaskets did you? I haven't read anything good ever written about them.
Regards, Pete.
Quote from: woodcreekpete on May 13, 2019, 06:04:20 PM
Quote from: Paul.1478 on May 13, 2019, 12:28:05 PM
ahhhh good! someone beside me with this issue! im hopping this will be one of the few trips into the head excluding valve checking.
While we're talking rattles - my 88 has what sounds to me like a rattling clutch. Runs fine, clutch in, in gear, rattles. Clutch out and rolling, all's quiet. Pretending it's a Ducati hasn't made it any more enjoyable. Any ideas?
Wpete
That sounds like the starter chain to me. Common noise and no need to cure until it sounds like a diesel ( cue RoverFJ1200 - Richard) with his 88 here.
Quote from: oldktmdude on May 13, 2019, 10:32:30 PM
Quote from: Old Rider on May 13, 2019, 12:17:56 PM
and yesterday the almost new valvecovergasket started to leak WTF !!
You didn't buy one of those cheap Chinese valve cover gaskets did you? I haven't read anything good ever written about them.
Regards, Pete.
I think that is exactly what it was but i dont know if it is from china because i bought it from a guy here in Norway but it was mounted on a cardboard then wrapped in vakumplastic.
The gasket i had before that was a genuine yamaha gasket bought at yamaha it came rolled up in a plastic bag and that gasket also split in the middle of the rubber (not in the same place) like the rubber was old and brittle.
well I am hoping my issues are gone. After all this I still had a leak. Time chain tensioner was just leaking a little but enough. I have been avoiding this because I know this is my final attempt at fixing it.
I removed everything found a little gasket left I failed to remove the last time. I carefully scraped everything off, used carb cleaner to be sure all was clean on each surface. SMALL amount of Permatex. One side is not tightening all the way, I seem to have stripped another hole. I have it as tight as it allows and used a little blue locktight. If this does not work I think the cylinders will need to be removed to get at the hole to put a helicoil in and that is not going to happen by me. I will either send I to RPM and have them fix it or just sell it with the leak. I will start it up today after work giving it 24 hrs to cure.
Hoping for the best...
Quote from: Paul.1478 on September 25, 2019, 08:04:14 AM
well I am hoping my issues are gone. After all this I still had a leak. Time chain tensioner was just leaking a little but enough. I have been avoiding this because I know this is my final attempt at fixing it.
I removed everything found a little gasket left I failed to remove the last time. I carefully scraped everything off, used carb cleaner to be sure all was clean on each surface. SMALL amount of Permatex. One side is not tightening all the way, I seem to have stripped another hole. I have it as tight as it allows and used a little blue locktight. If this does not work I think the cylinders will need to be removed to get at the hole to put a helicoil in and that is not going to happen by me. I will either send I to RPM and have them fix it or just sell it with the leak. I will start it up today after work giving it 24 hrs to cure.
Hoping for the best...
Paul, without looking I would think the chain tensioner holes could be fixed in place. You don't even need a helicoil, just drill it and tap it to the next size up.
Noel
I have had same problem on my bike stripped tread on one of the bolts.It was not a problem to fix as the hole vas deeper than it was treaded so i used a tap and a little wrench and then inserted a longer screw .A tip when tapping is using grease and only go one turn in before you rotate it out and rinse off the grease or else you can snap off the tap inside the hole....also try to hold the tap straight.
You have to pull out the carbs to get more workspace.
Thanks for the reply Noel.
Issue I see it, it is on the left hand side and there is a "nub" in the way from making a straight shot at it. Maybe if I had a drill with a 90 degree angle and small chuck...
Good to know and good idea about just taping. removes one step.
Quote from: Old Rider on September 25, 2019, 09:32:12 AM
I have had same problem on my bike stripped tread on one of the bolts.It was not a problem to fix as the hole vas deeper than it was treaded so i used a tap and a little wrench and then inserted a longer screw .A tip when tapping is using grease and only go one turn in before you rotate it out and rinse off the grease or else you can snap off the tap inside the hole....also try to hold the tap straight.
You have to pull out the carbs to get more workspace.
Humm. I like this. I sure hope I do not need to look into it but if I do (it keeps leaking) I will check that first. Good tip!
Quote from: Paul.1478 on September 25, 2019, 09:49:25 AM
Quote from: Old Rider on September 25, 2019, 09:32:12 AM
I have had same problem on my bike stripped tread on one of the bolts.It was not a problem to fix as the hole vas deeper than it was treaded so i used a tap and a little wrench and then inserted a longer screw .A tip when tapping is using grease and only go one turn in before you rotate it out and rinse off the grease or else you can snap off the tap inside the hole....also try to hold the tap straight.
You have to pull out the carbs to get more workspace.
Humm. I like this. I sure hope I do not need to look into it but if I do (it keeps leaking) I will check that first. Good tip!
If you decide to go with this method, Loctite a stud into the thread and use a nut and washer to hold the adjuster in place. This way means you don't have to rely on the threaded alloy withstand repeated use.
Regards, Pete.
Quote from: oldktmdude on September 25, 2019, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: Paul.1478 on September 25, 2019, 09:49:25 AM
Quote from: Old Rider on September 25, 2019, 09:32:12 AM
I have had same problem on my bike stripped tread on one of the bolts.It was not a problem to fix as the hole vas deeper than it was treaded so i used a tap and a little wrench and then inserted a longer screw .A tip when tapping is using grease and only go one turn in before you rotate it out and rinse off the grease or else you can snap off the tap inside the hole....also try to hold the tap straight.
You have to pull out the carbs to get more workspace.
Humm. I like this. I sure hope I do not need to look into it but if I do (it keeps leaking) I will check that first. Good tip!
If you decide to go with this method, Loctite a stud into the thread and use a nut and washer to hold the adjuster in place. This way means you don't have to rely on the threaded alloy withstand repeated use.
Regards, Pete.
Wow, you guys are amazing. That is a great idea I would never have thought of.
I rode it in to work today. Still smoking from oil I could not get to clean but I see no signs of new oil... yet... almost forgot how much I love this bike. Powerful and SMOOTH.
Thanks for all the great tips.
Well F. by the time I got home (about 35 miles) and ran it a hard the last mile when I parked it big oil drips. This seems a lot worse when I rev it higher.
I took it back apart (tank off carbs off) I do not think it is coming from the cam chain tensioner. It looks dry. I am thinking may base gasket? is it possible a base gasket can cause an oil leak? It may have happened one of the times i removed the head, just lifting up on the head may have slightly lifted the cylinders and ripped the gasket.
I will clean it up this weekend and do the corn starch trick.
Thanks for any comments.
Paul
Yes, the base gasket can cause a leak. Not too common but I have seen it a few times the OEM fiber material gasket "pooches out" and causes a leak. I think Noel or someone had a good photo of one on their bike but I can't seen to find the thread right now.
The original OEM gaskets were a fiber material which could also tear unless you pulled the jugs up however this is unlikely. The replacement Yamaha base gaskets are metal.
Thanks Robert. I am thinking while I was removing the head (that was suck) I may have lifted it and not known). I don't know what else it can be.
Ill get this cleaned up this weekend and hope to track it down. If base gasket Ill need to get an order together with you for all parts required. Head gasket base gasket, rubber round seal for head (original problem) and what ever else you think.
I was able to talk my buddy into doing this. He has been building race motors since he was 17, 2 strokes for ever and also race 4 stroke vintage bikes.
Hoping to bring to him and work with him 2 days and get it done...
I did the corn starch trick.
Leaking from the tensioner still
The hole is 23 mm deep. The bolt uses 12mm and the threads are a total of 14 mm.
So I will go get a new m6-1 tap and try and make more threads.
The alternator is in the way so I'll have to use a wrench on the end of the tap
I am going to use a stud as suggested.
New gasket ordered.
I hope to put this behind me soon.
Still, better news than a base gasket :good2:
Looks like an early snowfall in FJ land. Good find, as Pat said, not the base gasket. Yea...
Yes I am happy it is not the base gasket for sure.
I am a little worried about taping this because the generator is on the way. If it was on a bench I would feel better.
Just going to take my time.
I have had so much great advise from this form.
Corn starch trick.
Hole being longer that threads
Use a stud instead of a bolt.
And this is just with this one issue.
Not to mention RPMs suggestions and support.
So glad I found this.
MOnkey, I thought the same thing. Looked like a snow pic from one of our more Eastern members.
Joe
I took yesterday off to help a friend move but he called at 730 and said closing was delayed until 1.
So I went and got a M6 threaded rod and new M6 tap.
I was able to tap all the way to the end of the hole cleaning the tap during. I removed the 2 middle intake boots and used a 5.5M wrench to turn it due to no room. I then ground off a lot of the end of the tapered end of the tap to create a bottoming tap (not in stock or I would have got one).
Was able to get about another 2 turns.
After cleaning the hole well I applied a little loctite and screwed the threaded rod in and tightened with 2 bolts locked. As the other side was good I did not want to push my luck so just screwed in another threaded rod with loctite. I really like that idea a lot. I hope to never have to remove this again but if I do...
Just waiting on the gasket from RPM that should arrive today.
as for moving, 98 degrees in ATL yesterday. NOT FUN but always good to help a friend.
Make sure the intake manifold o-rings aren't flat and hard before you put those intakes back on. If you get a leak there you could be chasing your tail again.
Thank you Robert. I hope to be done chasing anything.
I replaced them when you did my carb rebuild about a year ago. They looked good but will remain aware incase of any strange issues!
No surprise to me when I got home the gaskets were in the mail box.
Thanks RPM.
Put it all togeTher. Ran it like last time and 0 oil.
Cleaned the corn starch off. Added a second nut just to be sure nothing backs off.
Cleaned and waxed the whole bike.
Riding to work tomorrow. Hoping for the best but seems to be good.
Fingers crossed!
Well 89 miles and no oil!!
I cannot express you guys how happy I am. I am back in love with my FJ. I almost gave up. 3 weeks ago I would have sold it for 1500 to the first person to come take it.
Big thanks to oldrider for telling me the holes were longer than the threads. Never would have guessed.
And to Pete for the suggestion to use studs. Great idea!!
7 months I have been chasing this down.