So bad day. Broke a tooth last night. I work with the wife so i rode the FJ in so I can leave early and go to the Dentest. On the way in I got a ticket 71 in a 45. About 350.
Dentest said your cut is 500 for the crown. When I left the Dentest I noticed oil on by right boot.
Read a few threads so I sprayed it down with breakcleaner and blew on some cornstarch.
How is this possible 13k (not 113k) miles and leaking head gasket ? Should I be worried about a warped head?
I hate messing with timeing chains and valve timeing. How hard is the head in the FJ?
It may not be your head-Gasket leaking (although the fix would be just as bad)
If I remember correctly, there are two O-ring seals and a copper-washer on one of the head-studs.
They seal the oil pressure passage for oiling the upper cylinder hardware.
Those seals harden over time, miles may not have a lot to do with it. It may even be worse for them if the bike never gets ridden? :scratch_one-s_head:
The stud in question is on the right side of the engine. It would probably leak right where your picture shows?
The copper washer is under the top head-nut to seal the top of the stud to the head.
It could be the oil cooler fitting o-rings at the cooler or the valve cover bolt grommets and/or gasket.
The leaking of the dowel seals Alan mentioned is not a very common leak.
Randy - RPM
Sorry to hear about the injury.
Hello randy and thanks.
Oil Cooler and valve cover all dry. After it cleaned it I added the cornstarch and ride for 5 min.
Leak is commong from where you can see on the photos.
Re Torque the head bolts...maybe.
I had an oil leak fron the back of the cylinder barrels. Turned out to be a bolt that i hadn't torqued up properly from when i had split the cases..
Its always worth a try.
Quote from: Urban_Legend on March 04, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Re Torque the head bolts...maybe.
Its always worth a try.
I agree with Mark. Before tearing anything apart, check
all of the head nuts for proper torque, (25ftlbs). Clean the existing oil from the cooling fins and take another spin around the neighborhood.
Photo of the proper torque sequence. Extremely important. 5 and 7 will be cylinder #1, 6 and 8 will be cylinder #4. IIRC The copper washers that were mentioned should be under nuts 6 and 8.
Fred
Fred i think you have mistakenly mixed some tightening sequence charts . Here are a pic from the fj1200 manual i got.
The leak can also come from camchaintensioner the oil is dripping forward when bike is standing still thru the cylinder and then get blowed out to the sides when bike is in motion
just a guess.
When I adjusted the valves about 800 miles ago I did check the toque and they were all right. Or at least my toquere wrench told me they were. Also changed the valve cover grommets and gasket.
So this seems rather uncommon. I will re-check the oil cooler again as Randy recommends but it looked dry and sure seems to be coming from the head.
Did you use a little rtv on the 2 halfmoons when replacing the valvecover gasket?
FYI, the photo of the torque sequence is correct.
But, the indication the copper washer are to be installed under the nut 9 & 12 is incorrect. They should be installed under nuts 10 & 11.
It is worth checking around, pulling the tank and making sure. The oil can also leak from the head gasket and leak forward out of the head moisture drain hole. Then once the bike is ridden, the oil can be blow around and to that area.
A little more investigation is required.
Randy - RPM
Randy,
Thanks for your input!
can you please explain a little more what I should be looking for? maybe a photo of were to look and what to look for?
There are drain slots on the front of the head under the exhaust cam. They are down at the base of the fins at the spark plug thread level. This allows rain water pumped into the head via the side fairing cooling ducts a way to drain.
If the valve cover or bolt seals leak, the oil can run into the area and out the front of the head. Then as I mentioned already, the oil can then be blown around the fins and side of the engine.
I'll be away from the shop until next Monday, so I can't offer any photos.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Paul.1478 on March 05, 2019, 04:30:13 AM
When I adjusted the valves about 800 miles ago I did check the toque and they were all right.
Paul, when you checked the tensions did you back off the bolts first (one at a time), then re-tension them in one fluid motion? This is really important.
A bit late now but my recommendation would be to leave them alone.
Noel
Thanks for the input.
No, I just set the toque wrench and verified. no idea I should have done this.
I think what Randy was trying to say above was leaving from the valve cover gasket not head gasket and leaking out the drain hole. So I want to check that.
I will pull the tank off today when I get home and pull the valve cover. Check around for any signs of oil and same with the oil cooler. I hope to find something other that the head gasket. It would suck to change it and still have the leak.
If you did not aply rtv silicone where the 2 red square is it will leak.
I did not apply the sealant so I am hoping to find the leak at this spot! the more I read about putting the cams back in and timing them the less I want to do it.
Quote from: Old Rider on March 05, 2019, 07:36:00 AM
If you did not aply rtv silicone where the 2 red square is it will leak.
You DO NOT need any RTV silicone or anything else on there, we do not use any silicone on any of the
gasket surfaces, with the exception of a couple dabs on the exhaust gaskets to hold them in place(not to seal), in any of the motors we build. It is a gasket for a reason it is made to seal with out silicone. If it is leaking it is bad, installed incorrectly, or the mating surface is muffed up.
Quote from: Paul.1478 on March 05, 2019, 07:54:29 AM
I did not apply the sealant so I am hoping to find the leak at this spot! the more I read about putting the cams back in and timing them the less I want to do it.
Adjustable cam gears (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3ASCG)
These will make your cam installation a breeze. We are currently out of stock but have more on the way. They will also allow you to keep the cams in perfect timing as the chain stretches.
I was just thinking, could I not just spray soapy water were it looks to be leaking and start the bike up and rev the engine? I would think I would see bubbles if it was leaking before it heated up and evaporated the water.
I took the tank off and closely checked around the valve covers. Dry.
checked the head bolts tight. checked all oil cooler hoses dry. Front of motor dry.
Cannot see any oil other then between the head and block on the right side.
I'm open to other suggestion.
I'll upload some
Photos in the am when I get to a computer.
Quote from: Paul.1478 on March 05, 2019, 05:11:55 PM
I took the tank off and closely checked around the valve covers. Dry.
checked the head bolts tight. checked all oil cooler hoses dry. Front of motor dry.
Cannot see any oil other then between the head and block on the right side.
I'm open to other suggestion.
I'll upload some
Photos in the am when I get to a computer.
inspect the plugs and look for oiled plug and do a compression or leakdown test
Some photos from yesterday.
Well seems my only option is to dig in. I don't think it is going to go away. The Leak is too bad to keep riding it. I ordered everything from RPM, head gasket, timing chain tensioner gasket, new copper washers for where I think the leak is coming from, and the dowel seals. I also am getting the adjustable cam sprocket to make putting it back together easier. I will get it apart this weekend. I will also check the valves while I have the valve cover off, they should be good still from less than 800 miles from the last time. I sure hope this is it and it fixes the leak.
I got the head off yesterday. If it was 1/4 inch wider it was not coming off with the motor in.
I also found the problem. The rubber grommet was damaged somehow. Looks like I will also need to sand down and paint a few of the head bolts as well. I am going to polish the head pipes this weekend as well while I wait on the parts to come to put it back together.
So putting this all back together when I had a few hrs. Slotted timing chain gears are a big help.
I was just torqueing the cam caps when a bolt broke off in the head.
Robert said you may be able to remove with a flat bladed screwdriver. I don't hold much hope out for that but will try. Likely back off with the head. The worst part is trying to get it out of the frame. Super tight fit. I called a local machine shop the does engines and heads. He made it seem like no big deal, stop by $20-30 and he could remove it as long as I did not break off an easy out in it.
So much for riding it this weekend...
The machine shop guy is right, it is no big deal, however, it does not require an ez out to remove.
We have removed a few hundred broken off valve cover bolts and cam bolts over the years. Since the head is broken off and there is no longer tension on the threads, the bolt spins out easily with a small flat blade screw driver or a small pick. If the bolt broke off completely flush, with no edge to catch, it would be a different story, but I have yet to see that happen on one of these bolts.
Quote from: Paul.1478 on March 26, 2019, 09:29:43 AM
So putting this all back together when I had a few hrs. Slotted timing chain gears are a big help.
I was just torqueing the cam caps when a bolt broke off in the head.
Robert said you may be able to remove with a flat bladed screwdriver. I don't hold much hope out for that but will try. Likely back off with the head. The worst part is trying to get it out of the frame. Super tight fit. I called a local machine shop the does engines and heads. He made it seem like no big deal, stop by $20-30 and he could remove it as long as I did not break off an easy out in it.
So much for riding it this weekend...
That sucks ! this is one of the things im starting to worry about when im going to put the head on. I think you can get it out by drilling a hole and use a screw extractor .It is not sitting thight
when it has broken off there is no tension.
HINT: When using an easy out get the ones that 4 sides with sharp edges versus the reverse spiral ones. Drill the proper size hole in the sheared off stuck stud and lightly tap the easy out into the hole. These 4 sided easy outs are much more resistant to snapping off and leaving an even bigger problem. :Facepalm:
I doubt you will need to do this but an old welder friend used to chuck a piece of steel rod in his tig(tungsten inert gas welding)torch handle and touch it to the broken bolt then tap the foot pedal to spot weld the rod to the bolt
Quote from: RPM - Robert on March 26, 2019, 10:07:54 AM
The machine shop guy is right, it is no big deal, however, it does not require an ez out to remove.
We have removed a few hundred broken off valve cover bolts and cam bolts over the years. Since the head is broken off and there is no longer tension on the threads, the bolt spins out easily with a small flat blade screw driver or a small pick. If the bolt broke off completely flush, with no edge to catch, it would be a different story, but I have yet to see that happen on one of these bolts.
I'm going to try with the screwdriver. I am going to the hardware store to get the largest flat bladed screwdriver that will fit at lunch. Your right there is an edge but with the luck I have had I doubt it will work for me.
I found what should be the perfect one. if it will work I hope this one will do it. you can see the edge on the half I have, so the other half I don't have yet will look the same but opposite.
Quote from: Paul.1478 on March 26, 2019, 12:38:15 PM
Your right there is an edge but with the luck I have had I doubt it will work for me.
With an attitude like that, no wonder shit always happens to you. Get your frame of mind in the right place and things will go better for you.
Just my take on life. Good luck with it. :good2:
Good advise ! Thank you.
Your right. I need to learn to walk away sometimes and make it fun and a job.
It did not work. Head is back off and at a machine shop.
Should have it back today still.
3 machine shops latter I got a guy to get the broken bolt out. I finished putting it all back together last night. It started right up but had an exhaust leak. I polished the header pipes and did not keep them in order. After a little looking I noticed they were numbered. I just swapped 2-3 and perfect. I gave it a nice bath and rode it into work today. Still a little smoke from the oil I did not get to but by boot has 0 oil on it. Long journey to stop an oil leak but it was not too bad looking back. Not sure I want to take the head off again. I am over that.
Big thanks to Robert at RPM. What a great group of guys. Working on these bikes for me would have been a lot harder without them and there advise/parts.
Paul,
Great news. Glad that you got the leak pin pointed and repaired.