With my FJ12 laid up for long term work, I'm looking at doing a 1st gen FZ1 swingarm installation. I just put some Kerkers on it and there;s an FZr750 front wheel and FZR1000 rear wheel waiting in the rafters. So if I'm going to do the FZ1, now seems the time.
But here's the thing: I don't want to add that 1-1.5" to the wheelbase. For some reason, I can really see the wheel pushed back on all the swap pictures I've seen and it's like a sharp stick in the eye to me.
I've had the swingarm sitting around for a year or two now, having ran across one for 50 bucks. Axle, pivot, brake stay and bracket, etc. I just had to grab it at that price.
I'm also not going to be "heartbroken" If I end up sticking with the stock FJ12 arm.
So with that in mind, I'm going to build a steel jig to hold the FZ1 arm and then cut the ends off it. Then I'll section out enough length to match the FJ12 arm and weld it back together.
Once that's done, it's back to the relatively easy task of milling off enough of the pivot to fit the FJ12 frame.
If I end up tossing it into the smelting furnace to make ingots, no big.
So it's worth a try. Should be interesting, I'll try and post some pics as I go along.
:)
Contact Joe Berk (Country Joe) about the chain adjustment bushings that he had designed for the FZ1 swing arm swap. The make life much easier.
The silver spacer between the swing arm and caliper hanger in the photo. Installed from the outside, it is also used for the chain adjustment.
While we're on swingarms, who's done a JMC IOM TT swap?
Well.
Built the jig and clamped the fz1 swingarm down.
Then started taking measurements.
I had planned to take 1-2" out of the rear straight portion. But on measuring, turns out there is no extra to cut out. I need a minimum of 13" to the crossbrace from the axle center point to fit the tire. Taking 1.5" out of the straight part of the arms would put the tire solidly into the cross brace by at least an inch (and thats with tha adjusters full readward). So that's just not a workable solution.
Further measuring shows approx 2" more from the arm pivot to the front edge of the cross brace. Same with the measurement from the linkage pivot lower mount to the arm pivot centerline. So it seems the FZ1 "extra" length (compared to the FJ) is all in the forward section.
Problem is: that part of the swingarm tapers in on the sides AND at the top and bottom. Just taking a slice out there is not an option either. Not to mention, I seem to recall the FZ1 swingarm is an extrusion with internal ribs/webs. No way to weld those internal structures back together once cut and that will compromise the rigidity of the arm, which is the reason for installing it in the first place.
So it looks like my only option is to cut the arm where it connects to the forward pivot tube and move the whole pivot tube back the needed 1.5-2", then weld it back together. It would probably mean having to cut and re-taper the upper and lower sections to meet the upper and lower part of the pivot tube as well. The taper on the outer portions wouldn't be much of a problem, they would just move out a touch on the pivot tube from moving the tube back Providing the frame won't interfere with the slightly wider weld points.
Have to sit and think about this one for a bit now. Turns out chopping that 1-5-2" is going to be much more work than I had planned for and if I do it wrong, I might run the rigidity and structure of the arm...
Quote from: aviationfred on February 23, 2019, 01:42:15 PM
Contact Joe Berk (Country Joe) about the chain adjustment bushings that he had designed for the FZ1 swing arm swap. The make life much easier.
The silver spacer between the swing arm and caliper hanger in the photo. Installed from the outside, it is also used for the chain adjustment.
Thanks, but thats a 20 min job (tops) on the lathe for me. No sense buying something I can make myself from leftover bits of Al...
:)
While waiting for the paint on my intermediate pipes to dry, I pulled the swingarm and did a little layout work:
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/94fda110.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/407)
I lined up the suspension linkage mount and made the measurements off there as the reference point. Since the linkage is progressive, i want to keep the ratios the same. Changing any of the mounting geometry changes the rates. May be a problem, may not. I want it to be the same so I'm not introducing an unknown variable into the swap. Same with wheelbase and height. Stock FJ wotks fine for me, so I need to get it to that point and then I can change whatever aspects I want from there.
So, there's 1.75" that has to come out of the front ahead of the cross brace (swingarm pivot moves back). There's also 1/2" that needs to come off the rear to move the axle to the same forward postion. The FZ arm has much kess range of adjustment than the FJ, so I need to get it right the first time.
Problem is that makes the tire clearance to the cross bar 12.5", which is pretty damned close when the tire is installed. I'll have to do some more mockup to check things out, but it's beginning to look like a heck of a lot of re-working to make it fit exactly like the orginal FJ swingarm.
Quote from: great white on February 23, 2019, 08:03:48 PM
Have to sit and think about this one for a bit now. Turns out chopping that 1-5-2" is going to be much more work than I had planned for and if I do it wrong, I might run the rigidity and structure of the arm...
I have been following this and have to ask the question, why? With the obstacles it has presented and the amount of work to get it done, what benefits do you expect from the job and is your riding style such that you will even notice?
It just seems like way more work than the end result justifies.
Noel
Yes, I'm with Noel on this one.
Fred, in your picture showing the index marks with the chain adjusted, Is that with a 110 link chain?
Or do you have to run a longer chain with the FZ swinger?
My point is, if Fred is indeed using a 110 link chain (oem length) that picture shows Fred's chain adjusted in good relation with the FZ swingers index marks.
I see no need to shorten the swinger.
(http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18428.0;attach=12114)
Sometimes, it's more about doing the project than the end result. Occstionslly, I'm that guy that does it because he can and thats reason enough.
I may end up just bracing the FJ arm and calling it a day.
Then, when I feel like it, chop up the FZ1 and see what I get. I have nearly no money in it and if it ends up melted down for casting aluminum, I'm just as ok with that.
Everything I've read on the FZ1 arm change requires a longer length chain. My sprockets and chain (110L) literally just csn out of thier boxes today so I have absolutely no inclination to buy another chain.
Then there's the longer wheelbase (just over 2") and the accompanying visual "off-ness" of the wheel shifted back that 2". May not bother most guys, but I see it and it bugs the heck out of me. The FJ isn't exactly a shirt wheelbase to start with and another 2" is only going to make it more... well, lets just call it more "stable"....;)
Chopping up the FZ1 arm is a fun little aluminum welding project for me either way.
:)
Great White,
Just something else you need to consider about the FZ1 swingarm swap is the difference in location of the dog bone attachment point of the FZ1 and the FJ swingarms. The mounting point on the FZ1 swingarm is too far rearward compared to the FJ. You can make longer dog bones and bolt it all together, but I found that the ride and handling was far less than optimal. I cut off the lug on the bottom of the FZ swingarm, had a block machined to receive the FJ needle bearings and had it welded to the front of the swingarm cross member. It restored the suspension linkage geometry to where I ended up using the original 3XW dogbones and that left me with 5/8" of clearance under the rear tire while on the center stand. I tried the unmodified FZ1 swingarm for a couple of months and never could get it to ride well at all, even with the RPM shock. If you don't like the extra length of the FZ1 swingarm, you really would be better off to just build a brace for the FJ swingarm and call it a day.
Joe
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 24, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
Yes, I'm with Noel on this one.
Fred, in your picture showing the index marks with the chain adjusted, Is that with a 110 link chain?
Or do you have to run a longer chain with the FZ swinger?
My point is, if Fred is indeed using a 110 link chain (oem length) that picture shows Fred's chain adjusted in good relation with the FZ swingers index marks.
I see no need to shorten the swinger.
(http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18428.0;attach=12114)
Good eye Pat,
When I did the swap, I purchased a 120 link chain and cut it down to about 116 links if I remember correctly.
Fred
Well alrighty then, a 114 link chain, that mesh's with GWN's measurements.
Interesting post from Joe on the different locations on the linkage points.
I don't recall anyone in the past noticing that difference, or correcting it like Joe did.
Got any photos Joe?
Start a new thread so we can return this one back to GWN's mod.
Quote from: Country Joe on February 24, 2019, 09:50:33 PM
Great White,
Just something else you need to consider about the FZ1 swingarm swap is the difference in location of the dog bone attachment point of the FZ1 and the FJ swingarms. The mounting point on the FZ1 swingarm is too far rearward compared to the FJ. You can make longer dog bones and bolt it all together, but I found that the ride and handling was far less than optimal. I cut off the lug on the bottom of the FZ swingarm, had a block machined to receive the FJ needle bearings and had it welded to the front of the swingarm cross member. It restored the suspension linkage geometry to where I ended up using the original 3XW dogbones and that left me with 5/8" of clearance under the rear tire while on the center stand. I tried the unmodified FZ1 swingarm for a couple of months and never could get it to ride well at all, even with the RPM shock. If you don't like the extra length of the FZ1 swingarm, you really would be better off to just build a brace for the FJ swingarm and call it a day.
Joe
Yep. Thats one of the reasons I want to move the swingarm pivot back: to keep the linkage geometry correct.
When I measured the two swingarms in the jig, I used the linkage attachment lug as the common point. That's why I'm looking at approx 1.75" off the front and .5" off the rear. Lots of guys often don't understand how much difference even a half inch difference can make in suspension and handling. I've got enough "suspension time" under my belt to understand what changing the ratios in a progressive linkage does.
Move the linkage mount or move the swingarm pivot, two ways to skin a cat.
My way just does dobke duty by keeping the swingarm length "FJ correct".
And if I end up junking the FZ1 arm, no big deal. I can alawys use more aluminum ingots.
;)
Here is a photo of the modified FZ1 swing arm Joe talks about. The dog bone mounting block has been cut off of the cross member and a newly machined block has been welded to the forward side of the cross member.
Fred
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 12:07:58 AM
Well alrighty then, a 114 link chain, that mesh's with GWN's measurements.
Interesting post from Joe on the different locations on the linkage points.
I don't recall anyone in the past noticing that difference, or correcting it like Joe did.
Got any photos Joe?
Start a new thread so we can return this one back to GWN's mod.
Pat,
Sorry, the photos I took during the mod process were on my previous company telephone. I will see if I can retrieve them from the iCloud.
Quote from: great white on February 25, 2019, 05:32:18 AM
Quote from: Country Joe on February 24, 2019, 09:50:33 PM
Great White,
Just something else you need to consider about the FZ1 swingarm swap is the difference in location of the dog bone attachment point of the FZ1 and the FJ swingarms. The mounting point on the FZ1 swingarm is too far rearward compared to the FJ. You can make longer dog bones and bolt it all together, but I found that the ride and handling was far less than optimal. I cut off the lug on the bottom of the FZ swingarm, had a block machined to receive the FJ needle bearings and had it welded to the front of the swingarm cross member. It restored the suspension linkage geometry to where I ended up using the original 3XW dogbones and that left me with 5/8" of clearance under the rear tire while on the center stand. I tried the unmodified FZ1 swingarm for a couple of months and never could get it to ride well at all, even with the RPM shock. If you don't like the extra length of the FZ1 swingarm, you really would be better off to just build a brace for the FJ swingarm and call it a day.
Joe
Yep. Thats one of the reasons I want to move the swingarm pivot back: to keep the linkage geometry correct.
When I measured the two swingarms in the jig, I used the linkage attachment lug as the common point. That's why I'm looking at approx 1.75" off the front and .5" off the rear. Lots of guys often don't understand how much difference even a half inch difference can make in suspension and handling. I've got enough "suspension time" under my belt to understand what changing the ratios in a progressive linkage does.
Move the linkage mount or move the swingarm pivot, two ways to skin a cat.
My way just does dobke duty by keeping the swingarm length "FJ correct".
And if I end up junking the FZ1 arm, no big deal. I can alawys use more aluminum ingots.
;)
:good2:
Picked up a used 3CV swingarm for 35 bucks today. I grabbed it so I can weld and hack on it without risking ruining the one on the bike.
So now it's a running competetion between modifying the FZ1 arm or bracing the stock FJ arm.
Or I may just do both!
Lol!
:)
Ever wonder what's inside that FZ1 swingarm?
Well;
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_03_03_19_3_57_42_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_03_03_19_3_57_41_0.jpeg)
Compared to the FJ arm, the aluminum is roughly twice the thickness. That, combined with the increased cross section and the internal webbing (not to mention the MASSIVE cross brace), is what makes it so much "stiffer" than the stock FJ arm.
Starting the "fishmouth" to move the pivot rearward:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_03_03_19_3_57_42_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_03_03_19_3_57_42_3.jpeg)
I don't think I'm going to have to "slit" the sides to close the top and bottom ends down on the pivot. The OEM hits it with a "hell for strong" welding process that penetrates straight through in one pass. I had always planned to bevel the weld joint and do a multiple pass process, to ensure penetration and coverage.
I believe after I bevel the top and bottom pieces, it should be close enough that I can fill whatever gap is left with the weld.
My weld will be structurally strong when done, it just won't be as "pretty" as the OEM pass (well, TBH, the OEM weld isn't what I would call "pretty" anyways). But it's going to be buried up inside the bike, so I could care less on appearance. Dimensional correctness and strength is what matters here...
:)
On a safety note here: aluminum exposure has been linked to onset of Alzheimer's disease. If you use sanding discs to remove bulk material here like I did, make sure you use a respirator of some sort so you don't inhale the Al dust.....you need to protect more than just your eyes and ears here. My Dad went out with Alzheimer's. Trust me when I say you definitely don't want to go out like that. It hasn't been solidly linked as a primary cause, but there is evidence. Why take the chance? Respirators; use 'em! They're good for many reasons....;)
Here is a better view of the relocated dog bone mount with the swing arm mounted in the frame with dog bones and shock connected.
Fred
Quote from: aviationfred on March 03, 2019, 04:47:43 PM
Here is a better view of the relocated dog bone mount with the swing arm mounted in the frame with dog bones and shock connected.
Fred
I won't need to do that. What I'm doing is moving the swingarm pivot back, which corrects the linkage geometry to stock FJ. So no need to move the cross brace mount point forward.
6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Except my way also makes the swingarm the same as FJ length overall....well, it's actually still 1/2" longer than FJ length at the rear axle center point, but I'm either going to live with that or clip 1/2" off the rear of the arms as well.
:)
Remind me, on the FZ1 swing arm mod, do you have to narrow the pivot tube like we have to do with the Thunder Ace mod? IIRC on the TAce we had to reduce the width 8mm (4mm off each side) so the pivot tube would fit in the FJ frame.
The reason I asked, if it does need to be narrowed, with the FZ1 tube narrowed and with tube's new location on the box arms, due to the angle of the box arms, it looks like it's gonna be tight in getting those side caps (dust seals) to slide onto the pivot tube.
What do you need ~1/2" to get the caps seated on the ends of the tube?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 03, 2019, 07:06:35 PM
Remind me, on the FZ1 swing arm mod, do you have to narrow the pivot tube like we have to do with the Thunder Ace mod? IIRC on the TAce we had to reduce the width 8mm (4mm off each side) so the pivot tube would fit in the FJ frame.
The reason I asked, if it does need to be narrowed, with the FZ1 tube narrowed and with tube's new location on the box arms, due to the angle of the box arms, it looks like it's gonna be tight in getting those side caps (dust seals) to slide onto the pivot tube.
What do you need ~1/2" to get the caps seated on the ends of the tube?
Won't know until I get to that point. From what I've read, 3mm off each side is required to fit the FJ frame. I have an appoinment all day tomorrow, but if we get the weather they are calling for, I won't be going and I should be to the point where I'm ready to start putting the swingarm together by the end of the day...
I'm highly doubtful it will be an issue anyways. The taper at the front is fairly gentle and the new weld points will be almost exactly where they were oem. Maybe 1mm further out per side, tops. It's only moved back about 1.75"....
Quote from: great white on March 04, 2019, 03:03:33 AM
I'm highly doubtful it will be an issue anyways. The taper at the front is fairly gentle and the new weld points will be almost exactly where they were oem. Maybe 1mm further out per side, tops. It's only moved back about 1.75"....
Correction on last: it's roughly 2mm further outboard on each side. So, roughly 5 mm less per side after it has been cut to size.
Still looks like ample room to fit the stackup of shims and seals.
:)
Been working on the pivot tube today.
One thing is for sure: Yamaha sure doesn't weld up the swingarm assembly in a jig that keeps the metal from warping/moving! it's pretty hard to keep welded parts from moving, the jig has to be pretty strong. Even then, it will move some.
The pivot tube is shaped almost like a banana, with the inner part of the curve where you would think it would be; on the welded side.
I'm thinking they must line bore after welding in order to get the bearings in the same plane. That would seem to make sense on a production scale: drop the sections in a jig, weld it up and let it warp a certain amount, line bore and it's out the door.
But, that could be a problem for a "home welded" swingarm like mine is going to be. with the tube already "warped", making the pivot bearing square could be trouble.
The other strange thing is even though the swingarm pivot tube ends are square to the tube, they are not square to the chassis mounting area because of that "banana" shape..... :wacko1:
Almost ready for welding:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_08_03_19_6_57_06_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_08_03_19_6_57_08_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_08_03_19_6_57_10_2.jpeg)
Next up is measuring for proper location and dimension, build the positioning jig to lock it all down solid, then weld 'er up and see what I get....;)
I will have to order new pivot bearings though, frigged up the FZ1 bearings that came with the swingarm when I removed them. These will work well enough for mock-up, but they ratchet a tiny bit so out they go!
:)
Well, time to get it done.
First, I level and true up a stock swingarm and drop reference points to the floor from my critical dimensions:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_11_03_19_7_24_22_0.jpeg)
With that done, I grab the FZ1 arm and:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_11_03_19_7_24_24_1.jpeg)
Gah! Whats that gawd awful mess all about? Well:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_11_03_19_7_24_26_2.jpeg)
Yes, the pic is upside down... but you can see all my droplines from the modified FZ1 arm are bang on thier marks. Well, the linkage pivot is on the proper plane, the lines are just "in" a bit more because the FZ1 pivot mount is not as wide as the FJ pivot mount. I just measure and mark lines where the FZ1 pivot width should fall in comparison to the FJ lines.
Then weld 'er up:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_11_03_19_7_24_28_3.jpeg)
That was the fastest part of the whole job! Like everything else, the prep takes the most time but thats how you get the right results on the first try!
:)
Once cooled (welded AL holds its heat for a looong time) I slide it on and see how it looks/fits:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_11_03_19_7_24_29_4.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_11_03_19_7_38_08.jpeg)
Oh yeah buddy! Thats what I'm taking about!
Looks great, maintains the FJ geometry (well, its 1/2" longer, it I can live with that) and should add plenty of torsional stifness.
I welded with the bearings and pivot spacer installed to help keep the AL from shifteing too much under the heat of welding. The bearings were scrap and needed to be replaced anyways so this is a good "end of life" purpose for them.
It's not perfect though. Since the swingarm is now shorter, that effectively means it gets wider, sooner. It contacts the brake switch, and by that I mean it solidly contacts the brake switch! Thats an easy fix though. There is also now not enough room to clear the brake master. I can fix that by taking the peg racket/plate to the mill and shaving off some AL to recess it a bit more. Only needs a couple mm at best.
But the biggest "Pee-Off" is the Kerkers no longer clear the swingarm. The LH side is close to clearing, but the RH side isn't even close to going on the bike, let alone clearing the swingarm. It's fixable, it just means more cutting and welding. Oh well, that's par for the course when modifying a bike.
The rest is all simple "busy work"; bushings and spacers for thr FJ axle and locating the FZR1000 wheel and R1 brake components.
Pretty happy with it so far.
:)
Quote from: great white on March 11, 2019, 08:47:16 PM
Well, time to get it done.
But the biggest "Pee-Off" is the Kerkers no longer clear the swingarm. The LH side is close to clearing, but the RH side isn't even close to going on the bike, let alone clearing the swingarm. It's fixable, it just means more cutting and welding. Oh well, that's par for the course when modifying a bike.
:)
The swing arm install looks great. You have some serious fabrication skills. :drinks:
I had a similar issue with my FZ1 swing arm install. Even with the standard length of the swing arm. The Yoshimura slip on mufflers would not allow full movement of the swing arm without fouling. :nea:
My solution, was getting a 4-1 full exhaust that had been hanging on the wall of another members garage for 20 years. :yahoo:
Fred
Ran into that problem with the Cobra slip on's when I did my YZF1000 swinger.
I did the following, each helped a little bit, but all together it made everything fit.
1) Spaced out the side plates with 1/4" spacers on the bolts between the plate and sub frame.
2) Shaved down the passenger foot peg nuts
3) on the muffler support, I used a low profile button head bolt (button head facing inside) with an acorn nut on the outside.
4) used a low profile Allen head banjo bolt on the m/c with special hose fitting to route the brake hose away from swing arm.
5) shaved the stop switch support bracket for clearance.
Looks great Great white You got good skills !
Well, it's no secret that the FJ axle is a smaller diameter than the FZ1. So, a little time on the lathe and:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_16_03_19_4_05_12_0.jpeg)
I also didn't want to stack up another spacer (just one more thing to fiddle with and loose when removing the rear wheel) so I simply stepped up the bushing to the size needed to space the wheel:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_16_03_19_4_05_12_3.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_16_03_19_4_05_12_1.jpeg)
There, now there's nothing to fall out when removing the rear wheel. At least no more than OEM.
The other side was just a bushing of the right diameter and size to account for the thickness of the swingarm, the adjuster block and brake arm:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_16_03_19_4_05_12_2.jpeg)
Good to go!
Last thing to do is get it down on the ground, drop some reference lines for measuring and toss the laser rig on it.....fine tune as required to get the critical dimensions bang on.
:)
Starting final aligment checks. First is to square the rear wheel to the swingarm pivot:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_18_03_19_9_09_37_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_18_03_19_9_09_35_0.jpeg)
Squared up nicely. Unsurprisingly, the chain aligment marks are off by a fair bit. I don't think I've ever found a bike (of any make) that those stupid aligment marks are actually correct...
Dropped my ref points for final "thrust alignment" check.
Rear wheel centerline:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_18_03_19_2_35_13_0.jpeg)
Steering stem centerline:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_18_03_19_2_35_14_1.jpeg)
Swingarm pivot centerline:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4839_18_03_19_2_35_16_2.jpeg)
You get the bike plumb (Vertical), square the tire axle to the swingarm pivot, drop reference points to the floor, then stretch a string from front to back on centers and see where your swingarm centerline falls. Then you know if your rear wheel conversion is on centerline of the bike. At least centered to the swingarm and stem that is.
Mine is bang on, or perhaps a 16th to 32nd out.
That'll do piggy, that'll do!
:)
Gotta say; doing it on the lift table is light years easier on the bod than rolling around on the floor. Wish I'd bit the bullet decades ago and bought one. Oh well...young and dumb.... lol!