(https://img.newatlas.com/yamaha-ty-e-electric-trials-bike-8.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&q=60&w=1000&s=956ccbc05ccfbf31eb5d8831ed336bc1)
Remains to be seen if it's competitive.
https://newatlas.com/yamaha-ty-e-electric-trials-bike/53938/
Well, Yamaha are an innovator.
If we can get off fossil fuel to generate power electric is the future.
I electric is perfect for that sport. Light, controllable torque, no gears.
Quote from: Troyskie on February 22, 2019, 10:12:37 PM
If we can get off fossil fuel to generate power electric is the future.
Already have....it's called nuclear. :yahoo:
Quote from: Troyskie on February 22, 2019, 10:12:37 PM
Well, Yamaha are an innovator.
If we can get off fossil fuel to generate power electric is the future.
Never gonna happen. Get over it. Electric is a pipe dream.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 24, 2019, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: Troyskie on February 22, 2019, 10:12:37 PMWell, Yamaha are an innovator.If we can get off fossil fuel to generate power electric is the future.
Never gonna happen. Get over it. Electric is a pipe dream.
Rick,
Yeah, no clutch, no transmission, no shifting, motor with ONE moving part, not much noise . . .
Add a hydrogen fuel cell in the top box for unlimited range.
Crack hydrogen from water with a homestead windmill or solar, never pay for vehicle fuel again . . .
Sounds hopeless. :biggrin:
However, Land Speed Record,
all production stock motorcycles (also Pikes Peak), gas or electric: the Lightning LS-218
http://lightningmotorcycle.com/ (http://lightningmotorcycle.com/)
Lightning Strike (taking reservations)
https://store.lightningmotorcycle.com/t/lightning-strike-reservation (https://store.lightningmotorcycle.com/t/lightning-strike-reservation)
Zero motorcycles
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)
HD-LiveWire
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html#intcmp_HP_BB1_livewire (https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html#intcmp_HP_BB1_livewire)
Ducati
https://electrek.co/2019/01/19/electric-ducati-motorcycle/ (https://electrek.co/2019/01/19/electric-ducati-motorcycle/)
You forgot how much coal is needed to generate that electricity. Or are you gonna put windfarms on every acre in the country? Let's see how many electric vehicles are still running if the subsidies dry up. Simple math should tell you electric vehicles just aren't ever gonna be anything but a novelty.
Rick loves his "beautiful clean coal" like a true Trumpster.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 24, 2019, 07:53:39 PM
Rick loves his "beautiful clean coal" like a true Trumpster.
Nah, but I know basic math.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 24, 2019, 07:34:20 PMYou forgot how much coal is needed to generate that electricity. Or are you gonna put windfarms on every acre in the country? Let's see how many electric vehicles are still running if the subsidies dry up. Simple math should tell you electric vehicles just aren't ever gonna be anything but a novelty.
Rick,
Nope, not at all. A homestead windmill is quite a modest installation. Solar cells gets better every six months, and if you want the power as hydrogen, PBS-TV/NOVA showed an "artificial leaf" that you put into water, add sunlight, and the gasses come foaming off like an Alka-Selter tablet with no moving parts. When I lived in Denver (where it's about a 2 on a scale of 10 for wind-power), the Denver Post reported on a guy cracking water (in the 1970s) with a homestead windmill, and getting more hydrogen than his car burned every month. He used a "carb" like the CNG cars use, only set up for hydrogen. The hydrolyzers of today are much better than his "tub of water and electrodes," but he just didn't care about the inefficiencies he had, because his power came free, from the wind, and he was getting all the hydrogen fuel his car could use.
I do not advocate burning coal for power. If there were no coal-fired power plants now, you could
never get any sane person to approve the construction of one, because of the coal mining, air pollution, inefficient conversion of heat into electricity, and solid toxic waste products.
I have another joy in my life besides the FJ, and that is hang gliding. I have seen first hand the reality of our air. I really want people to ignore those "weather forecasts" on TV that show a huge lie every night; we simply do not have a cartoonish "ocean of air" around this planet, which is somehow too big to become polluted. An accurate scale model of our air would be an
EXTREMELY thin coat of varnish on a basketball, with all of the high points almost poking out into space. Look at the smoke from forest fires, as seen in photos from the Space Station, and you will see how very shallow our "ocean of air" is, in real life. We need to take care of this place. Fossil fuels are not helping.
We've been thru this with Rick a few times now. His mind is made up. He's just toeing his party's line.
Curious that Trumpsters love "beautiful clean coal" that generates electricity yet hate electric cars that use electricity......
Never figured that one out.... :Facepalm:
Yeah, I'm a lost cause. I'll leave you to figure out where the hell you're gonna pile up all the dead batteries that lurk in your future.
Flow batteries look interesting.
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/new-refillable-batteries-could-fuel-electric-car-revolution-ncna974556 (https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/new-refillable-batteries-could-fuel-electric-car-revolution-ncna974556)
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/new-path-to-market-for-flow-batteries-rent-an-electrolyte#gs.Df7VHPWZ (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/new-path-to-market-for-flow-batteries-rent-an-electrolyte#gs.Df7VHPWZ)
We've had 120 years to develop the ICE, electric car battery development is still relatively young.
You would think a Trumpster would do everything he could do to protect American Industry and jobs for Americans. Do everything they can do to give America a fucking chance at the global market....but alas, not with electric car development.
The Trumpsters will just give it to China. Another opportunity lost.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-cars-chinas-drive-to-dominate-the-industry-60-minutes/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-cars-chinas-drive-to-dominate-the-industry-60-minutes/)
That's another thing I can't figure out...
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 24, 2019, 08:19:31 PM
Nah, but I know basic math.
....
.and a Trumpster? Come on Rick, choose one or the other, you can't be both :biggrin:
Noel
And we've had clean nuclear for over 60 years! Tremendously high energy density. Extremely small environmental footprint. No atmospheric emmissions. Generates 20% of US power already (75% in France). Technology is already 3rd generation and understood. YET, the green weenies still don't like it....go figure.
:Facepalm:
The economy of wind power for residential just wasn't there when I researched power for my house. Plus mechanical maintenance and wear. I just didn't want to deal with. It's been almost three years since I did the research. Maybe prices have changed enough for windmills that it would be worth the hassle.
.On municipal scale power. I don't know why people don't go for nuclear.
I really enjoyed the powerband of the two-stroke. But the power of the modern four-stroke power is more usable. I'm really excited about the massive amount of power of the electric vehicle. I would love to have a lightning. Progress is amazing isn't it.
Quote from: Motofun on February 25, 2019, 08:37:26 AMAnd we've had clean nuclear for over 60 years! Tremendously high energy density. Extremely small environmental footprint. No atmospheric emmissions. Generates 20% of US power already (75% in France). Technology is already 3rd generation and understood. YET, the green weenies still don't like it....go figure.
Motofun,
Yeah, I would like nuclear power generation, for all of the reasons you give and more . . .
. . .
UNTIL . . .
The safety engineers all say that we need seven different monitoring devices to verify the safe operation of all aspects of the new reactor, and the Bean Counters shout them down. "Those gadgets cost from US$30 to US$60 for each piece; you can have any TWO, but no more." Best of luck, when one of those two safety devices ever fails. Yeah, we CAN do it right, but we need to kick out the Bean Counters when we build our reactors.
*yawn* you electric nerds just keep trying. I'll be waiting.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 10:52:51 AM
*yawn* you electric nerds just keep trying. I'll be waiting.
Pretty Luddite sounding... Have you bought a PC yet Rick, or still not sure this internet thing is going to take off?
I'm no particular fan of e-cars/bikes, but their rise is inevitable at this point for right or wrong. China has prioritized energy sources to develop that will dramatically reduce their pollution problem. When that happened in the US, the best technology was ICE and they went about an expensive path to reduce emissions (and completely f'd the reliability of US cars for a decade or so). This was pretty much the only choice since more st renewable technologies were nascent. China has the e-vehicle alternative and renewable ways to generate the electricity economically. They've also got the gov't structure to implement a Green New Deal and see the advantage of leading the way to the non-carbon based economy. As with ICE, competition and scale will bring economies that work to the e-vehicle's advantage in a big way... Tesla has been able to skim the status buyers, but real people will buy an e-car that's got 1/1000the of the part count and complexity of even the cheapest ICE vehicle and the pricing will ultimately reflect this simplicity.
Look at Nio for example (on 60 minutes last night)... That will be the future of the e-vehicle IMHO... Chinese made, quick swap batteries, cheap to operate and charged by your own solar panels when home. The momentum around e-vehicles and autonomous driving continues to build even with the US trying to lead the way to climate change denial.
In summary, I think you're opinion is at least as irrelevant as the US's current denial of the need to get off fossil fuels. The world is heading that way with China assuming the technological lead. US leadership has withdrawn from this race at what will prove to be a pivotal time, when the technology is advancing rapidly and the biggest markets are being captured by others... IMHO of course.
Frank
So I'm skimming thru my morning news feeds with my cup of joe, and this pops up..
https://jalopnik.com/the-porsche-macan-is-going-electric-1832867432
A particular paragraph caught my eye:
"Chief executive Oliver Blume said Porsche was aiming for every second car it sold to be "electrified" — pure-electric or hybrid — by 2025, meaning that Porsche's electric ramp-up is even more ambitious than its parent, the Volkswagen Group...."(emphasis added)
VW Group is spending €30bn on electrification in the next five years.......................
30 billion euros is ~$34 billion USD. Quite a commitment from just from one car manufacturer.... yea, electric cars are just a fad. :crazy:
Trials is a really good application of electric. Tons of torque, doesn't need to go very far.
The big downfall of electric bikes is the need to choose between go fast or go far - higher speeds eat battery like a dog eats bacon. Trials bikes don't go fast.
Quote from: Troyskie on February 22, 2019, 10:12:37 PM
If we can get off fossil fuel to generate power electric is the future.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3)
20% nuclear, 17% renewables.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 24, 2019, 01:35:34 PM
Never gonna happen. Get over it. Electric is a pipe dream.
It already happened. Batteries are still kinda crappy, but the drivetrain is perfectly sound, and being mass-produced.
Quote from: red on February 24, 2019, 03:59:50 PM
Yeah, no clutch, no transmission, no shifting, motor with ONE moving part, not much noise . . .
Add a hydrogen fuel cell in the top box for unlimited range.
Crack hydrogen from water with a homestead windmill or solar, never pay for vehicle fuel again . . .
Sounds hopeless. :biggrin:
Hydrogen in vehicles is a non-starter. Too dangerous and too hard to store and move.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 24, 2019, 07:34:20 PM
You forgot how much coal is needed to generate that electricity. Or are you gonna put windfarms on every acre in the country? Let's see how many electric vehicles are still running if the subsidies dry up. Simple math should tell you electric vehicles just aren't ever gonna be anything but a novelty.
Current share of coal in US power generation is 30%. And it's dropping, mostly due to natural gas.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 24, 2019, 10:42:14 PM
Yeah, I'm a lost cause. I'll leave you to figure out where the hell you're gonna pile up all the dead batteries that lurk in your future.
I'm betting you don't have a pile of car batteries behind your garage. Nobody does. Where do they all go?
Oh, wait. There is a core charge, and you take them back to get recycled.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 10:52:51 AM
*yawn* you electric nerds just keep trying. I'll be waiting.
E-moto is currently at about the same point that cell phones were in the 1980s. It's there, it works, it's expensive and cumbersome. 20 years later they fit in a pocket, were usable and cheap enough for everyone.
**YAWN** I love all the old guys riding carb'ed bikes lecturing about futuristic electric garbage. :Facepalm:
Yea, my young grand daughters refer to me as Pappa Petrol Head.
Perhaps I won't live long enough to see a significant change, but I'm sure they will...
I'm good with that.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 12:55:27 PM
**YAWN** I love all the old guys riding carb'ed bikes lecturing about futuristic electric garbage. :Facepalm:
I don't ride carbed bikes because they are better, or because I love carbs so much. I ride them because they are cheap. Carbs suck major appendage. If I never had to touch a float ever again, I'd be perfectly happy.
Technology is how I earn my living, and so what I personally own isn't the limit of what I know about.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 12:55:27 PM
**YAWN** I love all the old guys riding carb'ed bikes lecturing about futuristic electric garbage. :Facepalm:
Yep I'm an old guy riding carb'ed bikes. Always looking for more power. Hopefully when I get my all electric house/ shop. That will have a shop that will always be heated and cooled. (As hot or as cold as I want without having to think about cutting it down, to save money) I'll get back to building a turbo/carberated fj. And smart car with a sled motor that will also be turbocharged. To the tune of about 5lbs per hp. But you bet if I could afford it I would have a lightning and one of those e porches (my nickname for Porsche) And I will/would not be yawning.
By the way torque is way more fun than hp. And electric motors are the ultimate torque monsters.
Quote from: red on February 25, 2019, 10:05:57 AM
Quote from: Motofun on February 25, 2019, 08:37:26 AMAnd we've had clean nuclear for over 60 years! Tremendously high energy density. Extremely small environmental footprint. No atmospheric emmissions. Generates 20% of US power already (75% in France). Technology is already 3rd generation and understood. YET, the green weenies still don't like it....go figure.
Motofun,
Yeah, I would like nuclear power generation, for all of the reasons you give and more . . .
. . . UNTIL . . .
The safety engineers all say that we need seven different monitoring devices to verify the safe operation of all aspects of the new reactor, and the Bean Counters shout them down. "Those gadgets cost from US$30 to US$60 for each piece; you can have any TWO, but no more." Best of luck, when one of those two safety devices ever fails. Yeah, we CAN do it right, but we need to kick out the Bean Counters when we build our reactors.
The bean counters don't work in nuclear...at least in my 35 years of experience. Perhaps that's part of nuclear's high cost problem. Protecting the core was out absolute number 1 priority. We often would go way past where I thought it was necessary just to assure safety,,,,,then I ride motorcycles so I guess I'm a risk taker. :biggrin:
Dino juice works fine, lasts long time. The acres/watts ratio for windfarms and solar farms is simply ridiculous. I'm onboard with nuclear power (Navy figured it out long ago and has a pretty damned good safety record.)The truth is that fossil fuels will not likely be replaced for generations to come. If you want to solve a real problem, work on curtailing the population boom.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 03:33:42 PM
Dino juice works fine, lasts long time.
Sure fossil fuels are fine...been to China, India, Mexico City lately? Perhaps even downtown Los Angeles?
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 03:33:42 PM
The acres/watts ratio for windfarms and solar farms is simply ridiculous.
So what? The point is moot, the logic flawed. The acre to watt output is still better than if the land had remained vacant. The wind and solar farms are located on land that is not being otherwise utilized. It's not like these systems are displacing farm land, taking food off your table.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 03:33:42 PM
If you want to solve a real problem, work on curtailing the population boom.
Yes, I agree overpopulation is a problem....What's order of priority?
Think Biology 101:
1) When the nutrients in the Petri dish are corrupted, poisoned, the culture dies.
2) When all the nutrients in the Petri dish are consumed, the culture dies.
Both are killers, but for those who believe in science and not Fox News, #1 comes before #2
You're right. I should have left it alone. Can't WAIT for all the electric goodies that are almost free, and certainly SMARTER than any previous technology. /s
Hey Pat I know the part about displacing farm land is incorrect. Almost all of the wind generators around here are on former cropland. They pay a lump sum to the farmers to lease the land and if I remember correctly either 5or8 acres per windmill. Farmers can't plant any of it.
Thanks Dan, I didn't know that....I don't agree with that. I could see sharing the use of the land although it would make crop dusting a bit tricky with the windmills in the way.
I think farm land should be sacred, protected, exempt from re-zoning. Even still, that's no guarantee the farmers will continue farming.
We have a similar problem here in the Imperial Valley but it not related to solar or wind...it's related to water.
The farmers in the Imperial Valley are guaranteed a certain annual acre foot water allotment from water drawn from the Colorado River. It's guaranteed because the farmers sold bonds back in 1934 to partly finance the building of Parker Dam, so in turn, they have guaranteed water rights in perpetuity.
Along comes thirsty San Diego.
They say to the farmers, we want your water and we will pay you double what you can make from farming if you sign over your water rights to us and let your land go fallow.
The solar and wind in my area is on undeveloped vacant desert land.
Hey Rick,we have already produced a nuclear car,they just need to get it back into production.
Quote from: T Legg on February 25, 2019, 05:34:34 PM
Hey Rick,we have already produced a nuclear car,they just need to get it back into production.
I've driven that thing. You think turbo lag is bad... try waiting for the water to come to a boil...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 05:28:11 PM
Thanks Dan, I didn't know that....I don't agree with that. I could see sharing the use of the land although it would make crop dusting a bit tricky with the windmills in the way.
Are you sure Pat :good2:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DdxzpeFyFSQ
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 04:13:35 PM
The wind and solar farms are located on land that is not being otherwise utilized. It's not like these systems are displacing farm land, taking food off your table.
But how long before they will be populated?
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 25, 2019, 06:59:22 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 05:28:11 PM
Thanks Dan, I didn't know that....I don't agree with that. I could see sharing the use of the land although it would make crop dusting a bit tricky with the windmills in the way.
Are you sure Pat :good2:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DdxzpeFyFSQ
Those guys have BIG brass balls. ALthough not exactly the same, I used to attend the Reno Air Races and really admired the pilot's skill and courage.
Joe
Gotta stay low and keep those wings level when dusting.....
Red Bull Air Racing around a wind mill course, THAT would sell tickets. Jeeze Louise
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 25, 2019, 07:08:08 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 04:13:35 PM
The wind and solar farms are located on land that is not being otherwise utilized. It's not like these systems are displacing farm land, taking food off your table.
But how long before they will be populated?
Same as farm land....When a developer comes along with enough $$$ to buy the land.
Welcome to capitalism.
It will be awhile in my area.
We have 100's of square miles of raw undeveloped desert with no water (see my post #30 above)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 07:35:01 PM
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 25, 2019, 07:08:08 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 04:13:35 PM
The wind and solar farms are located on land that is not being otherwise utilized. It's not like these systems are displacing farm land, taking food off your table.
But how long before they will be populated?
Same as farm land....When a developer comes along with enough $$$ to buy the land.
Welcome to capitalism.
It will be awhile in my area.
We have 100's of square miles of raw undeveloped desert with no water (see above)
Our government doesn't help, they profit from it also from the taxes, rates and everything in between.
(https://fsmedia.imgix.net/9f/5e/ca/ec/2c0a/4dfd/9cdf/f47b711d7426/total-solar-panels-to-fulfill-electricity-demands-of-united-statesjpg.jpeg?rect=0%2C66%2C560%2C280&auto=format%2Ccompress&dpr=2&w=560)
See this map?
We could power the entire USA with electricity if we put PV solar panels where you see the red square.
That's using PV panels with today's technology (~18-20% efficient) Wait until multi junction PV panels come to market. Take that area on the map and cut it a third. (needing only 66% of the area shown)
FYI, that area on the map is 10,000 square miles (100 miles x 100 miles).
With today's technology, the batteries you need to store this PV power for 24/7 use would be the size of 1 square mile.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 07:49:36 PM
We could power the entire USA with electricity if we put PV solar panels where you see the red square.
, that area on the map is 100 square miles.
With today's technology, the batteries you need to store this PV power for 24/7 use would be the size of 1 square mile.
Okay, I'll bite...
How much power does 100 sq miles generate?
Forgive my ignorance, but do you think more than 100 sq miles of panels have already been installed between residential, commercial and solar farms?
If yes, how come all of the power generated is not fulfilling the nation's needs?
Randy - RPM
Sorry Randy, I was editing a correction as you posted
That area on the map is 10,000 square miles (100 Miles x 100 miles)
https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/ (https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/)
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/56290.pdf (https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/56290.pdf)
Oh, elon...
https://goo.gl/images/eDw7tc
Randy - RPM
Yea, he's a knucklehead....hope he can keep it together.
He seems better lately. (Edit: maybe not: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/25/tech/elon-musk-sec-settlement-contempt/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/25/tech/elon-musk-sec-settlement-contempt/index.html))
BTW: He did not come up with those numbers, other folks did...
Here's a third party fact check: https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/energy/2015/05/21/fact-checking-elon-musks-blue-square-how-much-solar-to-power-the-us/ (https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/energy/2015/05/21/fact-checking-elon-musks-blue-square-how-much-solar-to-power-the-us/)
I wonder if we have enough of the rare materials required to make solar panels to pave ten thousand square miles and how much it would cost and how often would it need to be replaced. and there is no such thing as vacant land
Hi Travis, what rare materials are you concerned with? Rare earth metals Gallium and Indium are now being replaced with zinc and copper. Here is a 3 year old report, see the last paragraph:
http://www.resourceinvestor.com/2016/04/06/effect-solar-power-growth-metals-demand (http://www.resourceinvestor.com/2016/04/06/effect-solar-power-growth-metals-demand)
The point of the map was to illustrate the relative area needed for PV solar compared to the overall area in America.
This should put to bed the red herring idea that to be effective, or make a significant impact, PV solar farms would take up too much land area.
PV panels degrade over time, but not too bad. Today's panels are rated 10 years at 90% output and 20 years at 80% output. Those are the minimums, actually we are finding that they do better than that. We have PV panels here in Palm Desert that are 20 years old still at 90+% output. Not bad at all....
Cost....well, that's a whole different can of worms. It's not just the PV costs but also the battery storage.
The scientific improvements in solar panels in just the last year is amazing. But the wind quits and the sun sets. The problem has always been energy storage. It appears Dr Donald Sadoway of MIT just might have found the solution with his large battery for commercial electrical systems for storing power from wind turbines and solar panels. But that does not help batteries for vehicles.
I believe we will have all electric vehicles some time in the future but this depends on a small efficient battery. We have made small improvements in batteries. Tesla and other companies are coupling batteries to capacitors to improve the life and efficiency even more. But we are not there yet.
Dave
Quote from: ZOA NOM on February 25, 2019, 03:33:42 PM
If you want to solve a real problem, work on curtailing the population boom.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2019, 04:13:35 PM
Yes, I agree overpopulation is a problem....What's order of priority?
Think Biology 101:
1) When the nutrients in the Petri dish are corrupted, poisoned, the culture dies.
2) When all the nutrients in the Petri dish are consumed, the culture dies.
Both are killers, but for those who believe in science and not Fox News, #1 comes before #2
Malthus was wrong 200 years ago, and gets proven wrong on average about once a decade. Scientific progress changes the amount of resources and changes how they are distributed.
Overpopulation is a problem if you live on an island and have no way to get off of it. In the modern world it is not a problem at all.
You can tell it's winter...