Hi folks. I have a bit of a weird situation here. My '92 FJ started to leave oil spots on my right shoe the end of last summer. I looked all over for the source but couldn't determine an origin!? I took the bike out for last time before winter started for a nice 250 miles romp on a cool November day. Not one oil spot.... This spring, I took her out for several short trips, no oil. The other night i rode into work and my work shoe has oil drips on it! The fork seals are a year old, but maybe I missed a burr. Would they spit that much oil? Would the cooler weather effect that?
Appreciate any help!
Rick
Quote from: rpickle on April 15, 2010, 12:28:17 AM
Hi folks. I have a bit of a weird situation here. My '92 FJ started to leave oil spots on my right shoe the end of last summer. I looked all over for the source but couldn't determine an origin!? I took the bike out for last time before winter started for a nice 250 miles romp on a cool November day. Not one oil spot.... This spring, I took her out for several short trips, no oil. The other night i rode into work and my work shoe has oil drips on it! The fork seals are a year old, but maybe I missed a burr. Would they spit that much oil? Would the cooler weather effect that?
Appreciate any help!
Rick
Rick, you would know if it was the fork seal.......the fork leg would be wet with oil.
I'll be game and suggest that it is possibly one of the cam cover bolt grommets that is leaking......if so, replace all the grommets at once and be careful not to over tighten the bolts - the grommet acts as a seal, the bolt itself seats on the cover and can be snapped easily if over torqued.
It may also be a leaking cam cover gasket...... don't assume that because its your right boot, that the leak is on the rhs somewhere.......if its leaking at the head, the oil can travel!
Also, check the bung in the crankcase on the rh end of the crank, it is sealing the end of a main oil gallery..... it has a small o-ring seal which may be leaking?
report back what you find mate.
Harvy
Thanks for the tips Harvy.
I'll get to it soon (in a day or so) and report back.
Rick
Quote from: rpickle on April 15, 2010, 12:28:17 AM
Hi folks. I have a bit of a weird situation here. My '92 FJ started to leave oil spots on my right shoe . Not one oil spot.... my work shoe has oil drips on it!
Rick, hopefully it is oozing out from the oil filler cap o-ring, or possibly from the valve cover gasket & bolt grommets.... if not then you'll probably have to pull the head to replace the head gasket and oil passage o-ring.
clean it up nice & dry, go for a ride then look for oil seeping out where the cylinder head meets the cylinder.
Good luck
If you clean the engine well, you can then sprinkle it with talcum powder or corn starch.
Start and run the engine for 5 min or so varying the rpms. You'll see where its leaking :-)
Either powder will wash off easily, too.
Cheers,
Arnie
Quote from: Arnie on April 15, 2010, 09:49:34 AM
If you clean the engine well, you can then sprinkle it with talcum powder or corn starch.
Start and run the engine for 5 min or so varying the rpms. You'll see where its leaking :-)
Either powder will wash off easily, too.
Cheers,
Arnie
Spray on foot powder works well for this.
Since no one mentioned it... if it is one of the valve cover bolt rubbers, be careful not to overtighten on reassembly. They can be twisted off quite easily, I hear.
Randy T
Indy
I had a similar problem; boot and other parts only got sprinkled at freeway speeds. Tried Arid Extra Dry powder deodorant (bike smelled nice), locking the throttle at 2,500 rpm with a fan in the driveway for 10 minutes, still couldn't see exactly where it was leaking from. Knew it was from the head gasket area. Anyway, turns out it was from a previous owner ham-fist assembly; the oil galley o-ring between the head & cylinder was chafed on one side so the leak only happened at full oil pressure. I was really happy to see what it truly was, and not porosity in the head or cylinder.
Good luck!
I'll give the foot powder a try. Appreciate all the tips.
Rick
One other thing. Ensure that your oil level is not too high. The FJ will vent oil out of the crank case brether (I think it's the CCB -someone check me on this please) if the there is too much oil in the bike. Had this happen to me once sprayed oil all over the engine. Made a real mess. Luckily it did not get on the back tire...
Probably not it, but worth checking.
Dan
Thanks Dan, but I am pretty sure that is the right level. I always check it on the center stand and never go over the fill-to mark.
Good thought though.
Anybody have a line on a cheap set of the valve cover grmets? Bikebandit wants 3 something for them. Seems a bit steep since I should replace the 8 of them and the valve cover gasket.
Appreciate the help.
I have the bike in the shed for the weekend, so hope to give it good looksy.
Rick
Took the upper fairing off. Geez, that is disappointing. Came off easy, espeacially since 3-4 tabs were broken off! Ugh....
Anyway, the wet spot on the engine is located around the front where the 2 10mm nuts are facing down. That must be where the cam chain expansion is in the head. I backed off the nuts, then retorqued them. I doubt that works. Looks like a bit of a major job. Is there an o-ring that goes around that area or is it strictly a gasket?
Bummed....
Rick
I have them in stock as well as the V/C gasket. I do not recall the price as I am not at the shop. I will let you know tomorrow.
Randy - RPM
No, it is only the head gasket. There is not any pressurized oil in that area, so it is going to be hard to get an exact location of the leak. You need to check the V/C gasket, as you mentioned before, carefully and make sure it is not running down. It can be leaking from the center area of the gasket and running out through the moisture drain holes around the studs to the front of the head area you are describing. I would venture to say it is probably the gasket/grommets.
In the race car, due to the mounting and cooling of the engine sideways, the head is also prone to cracking where the fin butts against that area where the chain area heads towards the front of the head. You will need to clean everything well by pressure washing first and then cleaning with a brush and brake clean.
I can send a picture of a welded head that I have on the bench to give you and indication of the problem area. I use a propane torch to heat the area and the crank becomes obvious right away.
It can be welded but it must be done by a competent TIG welder. I have repaired a bunch of these that were not welded properly and leaked worse after the first weld.
If I can be of assistance shoot me any email; randy@rpmracingca.com
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy.
The rest of the engine, north of the wet spot, seems dry. I'll have better light today to look at it.
Looking at it last night, the oil was as fas back as the rear master cyclinder! Did that in one ride, 'cuz I had just washed and waxed it.
Rick
Have you done a compression check? If you've got a cylinder that's not sealing well it could push oil through the breather like Dan mentioned with too high oil level. Mine would oil the right side of the bike like you describe when I had a cylinder sealing issue.
Keep us posted and Good Luck!
Chris
No, but I can do that before I get any deeper. This is going to be a slow-paced job since I have loads of things on my plate. I'll post when I get any further.
Appreciate the info, I am not in my comfort-zone on this and need all the advise I can get!
Rick
Hey Rick,
I had the same problem. After a long ride I all off a sudden find my right shoe covered in oil. It was the problem that smokamoto described. The o-ring between the engine case and the cylinder was leaking. But not all the time. It was temperature related. I do not think it comes from the upper end. If so you would see a big oil line/spot Good luck
greetings from CA
Werner
WS, not sure if that is good news or not....
I hope to have some time with it this week as some of the honey-do's are now completed:)
Rick
Have a gasket set coming. Do I have to break the timing chain to get the head off? I replaced gaskets on a Suzuki a few years ago, dual overhead cam, and managed to not have to break the chain.
Before I tear into it, I will do a compression check.
I did check to make sure the crankcase tube was connected to the airbox and it is.
Appreciate the info.
Rick
No need to break the chain, just unbolt the cam bearings. Timing the cams upon reassembly-that's another story. Make sure to keep all the slack out of the chain after you set the exhaust cam and then set the intake cam. Took me a couple times to get the timing right. Do you have a repair manual?
I also had one of those mysteries a few years back. Only a few sprinkles on the boot after a go fast and not a trace anywhere else. After some time I got smart enough to realize it could only be from the head-cylinder mating. Ended up lucky. I pulled the head nuts one at a time, antiseized, re torqued. Many were not real tight. Hey it's a 91 with mid 50,000 then, 63,000 now, and never been apart!
Anyway, TaDA! hasn't leaked since. FWIW
I have all ready checked the bolts and all were well torqued.
I do have a manual, but manuals are not always publishing the prefered method.... I replaced gaskets in a Suzuki, manual wanted to break the chain. Didn't need to though. Its just good to ask those who have all ready been thru it to get any tidbits that may make things easier.
As always, appreciate the info. I'd be much worse off without it.
Rainy weekend ahead, could be gettin' dirty!
Rick
If you have a leak at the front side of the cam chain tunnel, you're not alone. Retorquing doesn't seem to help, I'd imagine the right answer is a new head gasket.
Pulling the head isn't really very difficult. Took me about 3 hours in the garage one day (DO NOT DROP A SCREW FROM THE THROTTLE CABLE JUNCTION INTO AN EMPTY SPARK PLUG HOLE!)... it was a long day... but it's not very hard.
I will suggest that you use a grease pencil or similar means to mark the cam chain and cam sprockets when you take it apart. Ensure that the motor is at TDC (#1 cam lobes will face directly away from each other) before pulling the chain off the sprockets, and it'll make aligning things that much easier when you're done.
In my case, I didn't have to pull the cams completely, just stuck a magnet sideways after lifting the head an inch or so, got the errant screw out, and put it back together... I just lived with the leak, it was mild, and the motor ended up coming out and apart a few months later anyhow. I have adjustable cam sprockets, so when I reassembled things, I followed the procedure in the Haynes manual, aligning the sprocket dimples to the valve cover seat, and then aligned the holes in the cams with their bearing caps. Had quite a significant improvement in power afterwards in the +6000rpm range to boot, hooray! Use threadlocker on the cam sprocket screws if you remove them, incidentally.
Thanks Andy.
I did not get started this weekend...
I want to be able to tear it apart and reassemble in a day or two. Did not have the second day cushion this weekend.
Shooting for next weekend now.
Rick
Hallo Rick,
here is another tip before you pull your cams. Measure the valve clearance. So when you put it back together and they have been out of specs it is much easier to throw those shims in. And then measure again. Good luck javascript:void(0);
Werner
Good point.
Appreciate the advice.
Rick
Hi, an update.....
I replaced gaskets down to the cylinder base. Replaced the valve stem seals. Am now putting it back together. Have the cams in and what I think is timed with the crank. What will it do if one of the cam gears is off a tooth? Will it run, just not well?
Curious.
Hope to have it ready to test run soon.
Sad part is, I never did come across an obvious leak spot!
Rick
Quote from: rpickle on June 01, 2010, 11:14:11 PM
Hi, an update.....
I replaced gaskets down to the cylinder base. Replaced the valve stem seals. Am now putting it back together. Have the cams in and what I think is timed with the crank. What will it do if one of the cam gears is off a tooth? Will it run, just not well?
Curious.
Hope to have it ready to test run soon.
Sad part is, I never did come across an obvious leak spot!
Rick
When I took mine apart for the oil leak, the exhaust cam was one tooth retarded from the same ham fister who chafed the oil galley oring. The bike ran ok except at 1/8 throttle in first & second gear-it had a real bad hubbabubba. Now that the cam timing is right the hubbabubba is gone but replaced with vibration, really strong at 3k rpm, smooths out at 5k rpm. I had greased my front engine mounts prior to the top end work and checked them again-still nicely greased. I did increase the pilot jets to 40 & checked the carb sync, that's about it. Sorry your oil leak wasn't obvious like mine.
Quote from: rpickle on June 01, 2010, 11:14:11 PM
Replaced the valve stem seals. Am now putting it back together. Have the cams in and what I think is timed with the crank. What will it do if one of the cam gears is off a tooth? Will it run, just not well?
Curious.
Depends on which way you're wrong by. Possible to get piston/valve contact if you're unlucky. If you're wrong the safe way, it'll just be weak at some revs.
Thanks guys.
I will double-triple check it before zipping her up.
Rick
Here is a late update: Finished assembling the bike 2 weekends ago. Hit the starter and it fired right up. Rode for about 50 miles, no issues. When I rode to work a few days later, got off the bike and it was smoking and dripping oil everywhere! Oh no!!! After work I trailered it home. Found the chain tensioner bolts loose. Tightened those and then went around and re-torqued the rest. Just back from an hour ride, still getting a little dribble on the left side of the engine under the oil filter housing. Once it cools down I will look it over again. Right shoe was dry though......
Quote from: rpickle on July 05, 2010, 12:58:07 PM
still getting a little dribble on the left side of the engine under the oil filter housing.
Rick,
I've been fighting a leak on this side for a bit too. Four possible places it can come from (that I know of):
1. Oil filter housing - make sure no wires are pinched (neutral switch and oil level), make sure the o-ring is in good shape and not pinched, make sure the housing isn't cracked.
2. Next look at the clutch push rod seal and see if it is leaking from there. If it is, replace it and make sure to clean up the rod real well so there are no nicks or crud on it that could cut the seal.
3. Behind the alternator. Make sure the o-ring is in good shape AND IS THE RIGHT SIZE! There are two different o-rings for these - a thick one and a thin one. I THINK the early models use the thick o-ring and the late models use the thin o-ring. The parts fiche shows one part number through 87 and a different one from 89 on. Use the wrong one and it either won't seal or will get cut during the install. Also, check the shaft seal that is held in by an aluminum collar that mounts with three bolts (this bolts to the engine case - you can get to it after removing the alternator.
4. Randy told me the cam chain tensioner can also leak down to there. I haven't checked this out yet - check the gasket and make sure the tensioner isn't cracked is all I can think of for that.
Good luck and let us know what you find. Thanks for the updates so far!
Chris
I just pulled the carbs again to check the tightness of the cam chain tensioner. Left side was not very tight. Was hard to get at. Tightened that. While the carbs were off, I was looking over the intake rubbers. Carb 3's rubber is trashed. Probably the cause to the sucking sound at idle!
Will see what I can find. Don't really want to buy all new all though that would be ideal.
Thanks
Rick
Installed "new" ruber for carb 3 that Peter sent (thank!). Fired right up and sounds great!
Keeping my fingers crossed, but no oil on my shoe on the ride into work!
Maybe I can now ride it for a while!!!!
Rick