I have begun the repairs on my FJ that caught fire during my vacation to South Carolina and Florida. The carbs are on their way to RPM for a good cleaning and going through. :yahoo: The actual damage is much less than I thought. :dance: The only factory wire damage is at the red circle in the photo. The only severe damage was to the oil level sensor/Neutral switch indicator wires. The green connector in the photo, the wires lay under the UNI pods and route behind the engine (red circle). The black plastic sheething in the red circle area as you can see is completely melted and fused to the wires. The heat shield shows the most heat damage at the left rear. I believe that this is where the fire began. A chafed wire... built up chain lube.... catches fire....ignited oiled UNI pods.... melts fuel line at the under tank fuel filter... :pardon: :unknown:
There really isn't any more damage other than the right fairing infill panel.
Thank God you acted quickly and were in the right place.
I am considering ordering one of these to keep in my top box. :flag_of_truce:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362)
Fred
Considering our bikes reputation for self-immolation, that seems like a really good idea. How fast can you get into your box in an emergency situation Referring to an adrenaline fueled moment when we revert to caveman instincts. I know I'm not fast getting into the hard luggage. Except for theft, I'd like to mount something like that to the outside of the bike.
Joe
I barely had time to grab my tank bag. If it had been strapped on instead of just magnets, I wouldn't have been able to. That said, I really wish I had one when mine burned down. The worst feeling is standing there watching it burn, helpless.
Quote from: ZOA NOM on January 08, 2019, 10:54:37 PM
I really wish I had one when mine burned down. The worst feeling is standing there watching it burn, helpless.
Having seen the photos of your FJ and the aftermath, Your mishap actually entered my mind as I ran into the Restaurant.
Fred
Quote from: aviationfred on January 08, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
I am considering ordering one of these to keep in my top box. :flag_of_truce:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362)
Fred
Just an advice, buy such things only in US stores. That way you can (probably) be sure it complies to the neccessary standards and that it is safe. After all, it is a pressurized container and I believe you have some regulations in the US that monitor such things.
Quote from: aviationfred on January 07, 2019, 11:41:17 PM
...... I believe that this is where the fire began. A chafed wire... built up chain lube.... catches fire....ignited oiled UNI pods....
Quote from: ribbert on January 09, 2019, 06:06:39 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 07, 2019, 11:41:17 PM
...... I believe that this is where the fire began. A chafed wire... built up chain lube.... catches fire....ignited oiled UNI pods....
Fred you wouldn't need a fire extinguisher with a Triumph Tiger. They have fuel injection and don't catch fire. Just sayin.......... :yes: :biggrin:
Dave
Fred,
Is is your belief those wires chaffed and caused the source of ignition?
The reason I ask is because those two sensor wires are grounding circuits that illuminate the specific warning light. If either of those two wires chaffed and contacted each other or the case, you would have only had a dash warming light stuck on.
Once we get the carbs and perform an autopsy, maybe the source can be determined. I recall you saying in one of the original posts, the engine was missing when you pulled into the parking lot. That and the running issues just prior to departing on the trip is in my opinion pointing to fuel flooding out of a carb or two.
We will be very methodical in diagnosing the carbs when they are disassembled.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 09, 2019, 07:08:15 AM
Fred,
Is is your belief those wires chaffed and caused the source of ignition?
The reason I ask is because those two sensor wires are grounding circuits that illuminate the specific warning light. If either of those two wires chaffed and contacted each other or the case, you would have only had a dash warming light stuck on.
Once we get the carbs and perform an autopsy, maybe the source can be determined. I recall you saying in one of the original posts, the engine was missing when you pulled into the parking lot. That and the running issues just prior to departing on the trip is in my opinion pointing to fuel flooding out of a carb or two.
We will be very methodical in diagnosing the carbs when they are disassembled.
Randy - RPM
The source and cause of ignition is really guess work on my part. I am trying to work on an educated guess from the damage that I am finding while doing repairs and the location of the most damage. The worst wiring damage is located in the fed circle of the posted photo. Also that is the same location that all of the carb overflow hoses were routed. I left the hoses attached for the carbs. You will be able to see the heat damage on the hoses.
Fred
Quote from: aviationfred on January 08, 2019, 11:27:47 PM
Quote from: ZOA NOM on January 08, 2019, 10:54:37 PM
I really wish I had one when mine burned down. The worst feeling is standing there watching it burn, helpless.
Having seen the photos of your FJ and the aftermath, Your mishap actually entered my mind as I ran into the Restaurant.
Fred
Well, if I can save just one FJ's life, it's all been worth it!
Rick, remind me, you split a fuel line at the fuel filter, correct?
Quote from: aviationfred on January 09, 2019, 07:24:25 AM
The source and cause of ignition is really guess work on my part......
Fred
Fred, I'd be surprised if anything other than fuel/fuel vapour could ignite down there, it would need a spark to set it off and the alternator is the most likely source for that. Hot engines, hot exhaust pipes, hot wires won't do it.
The engine stumbling just beforehand sort of adds weight to carbs flooding.
Noel
I would agree with Noel.
Fuel is actually very hard to ignite without a spark. A hot engine will not ignite Gasoline.
There has been a few instances where I had fuel pour/spray directly onto my just-turned-off FJ engine. It simply boils off and flashes into vapor instantly. No spark + No Ignition.
Built-up lube/oil is absolutely impossible to ignite...............You could have it dripping directly on the hot exhaust of a running engine for days and it would not ignite (I have actual real-world experience with this)
Unless you have an open flame, you will not light any oil/lube on fire. A spark will not ignite it either.
You would've had to have fuel overflowing from somewhere, flashed into vapor from the hot engine, and an actual spark from either: a live power wire shorting to ground, a spark-plug wire arcing outside it's insulation, or as Noel said, the alternator (there is sometimes some arcing at the brushes during operation)
My guess is there was a backfire trough the carb that set the podfilter on fire.
I doubt this is the case on Fred's FJ, but if the main ground wire has a bad connection, I've seen sparks around the shifter lever pivot shaft as ground from the engine finds a path through the shifter linkage back to the frame.
I have used this type of heat shrink/solder tube on aircraft for decades. Recently I have seen these advertised on Facebook and bought the small kit. I am giving these a try on a few of the wire repairs.
https://sharperday.com/products/necs-waterproof-solder-wire-connectors
Fred
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 09, 2019, 12:30:19 PM
Rick, remind me, you split a fuel line at the fuel filter, correct?
Correct. The filter was not a Yamaha, and the nipple was slightly large. I'll never know for certain if that was the source of the fire since it turned into a puddle, but I know it was an issue I had planned to address. I put it on a back burner, if you will, but apparently the burner was left on!
Quote from: aviationfred on January 10, 2019, 06:42:17 PM
I have used this type of heat shrink/solder tube on aircraft for decades. Recently I have seen these advertised on Facebook and bought the small kit. I am giving these a try on a few of the wire repairs.
https://sharperday.com/products/necs-waterproof-solder-wire-connectors
Fred
Yes these are awesome.....by far the best for joining wires....
An update... The carbs have been sent to RPM. I have been informed that the choke circuit has been jacked up and probably helped in causing my poor gas mileage, idle adjustment issues, and could have contributed to the fire. :ireful:
I have also located and ordered replacement parts that were damaged in the fire. All of the parts were sourced from Germany and England. Since I have removed the ABS function, I specifically searched for side panels that had the ABS absent.
While searching, I came across an oil cooler for sale that looked familiar. Upon closer look, it appears to be a RPM oil cooler with the black fittings. I grabbed it and will install it since the bike is down.
I also ordered a fire extinguisher to carry on the bike.
Fred
I'd like to see a pic of that fire extinguisher next to an item we know the size of, like your bike, hand, tape measure, etc. Please.
Joe
Quote from: Tuned forks on January 14, 2019, 06:49:24 PM
I'd like to see a pic of that fire extinguisher next to an item we know the size of, like your bike, hand, tape measure, etc. Please.
Joe
As soon as it arrives, I will post a photo
Fred
Quote from: Tuned forks on January 14, 2019, 06:49:24 PM
I'd like to see a pic of that fire extinguisher next to an item we know the size of, like your bike, hand, tape measure, etc. Please.
Joe
Come on, man... you got a googler?
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog-imgs-31-origin.fc2.com%2Fs%2Fa%2Fn%2Fsanshimai3%2F20090304112257.jpg&f=1)
Looks to be about 14" or so.
Joe
Quote from: aviationfred on January 08, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
I am considering ordering one of these to keep in my top box. :flag_of_truce:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362)
Fred
I have about six of these on the sailboat, one (and a larger one) in the rock crawler, and was carrying one on the FJ for years after a fellow rider had a huge fuel leak on the side of the road. "When the place is on fire, no one has ever wished for fewer fire extinguishers."
Quote from: aviationfred on January 10, 2019, 06:42:17 PM
I have used this type of heat shrink/solder tube on aircraft for decades. Recently I have seen these advertised on Facebook and bought the small kit. I am giving these a try on a few of the wire repairs.
https://sharperday.com/products/necs-waterproof-solder-wire-connectors
Fred
I swear by similar connectors. When I first bought my sailboat, every foot of every wire was corroded. I tore it all out and replaced all of it with high-strand, tinned wire and adhesive-sealed shrink connectors from Ancor Marine. A fellow sailor told me that it was impossible to get more than a few years out of the wire in the salt environment and he'd tried "everything". I did that massive re-wiring job 21 years ago...not a hint of failure anywhere to this day. When the life of me and my passengers may depend on everything going right, I'm not having to chase electrical gremlins. My rock crawler is wired the same way...for the same reasons.
Quote from: Firehawk068 on January 10, 2019, 09:38:09 AM
There has been a few instances where I had fuel pour/spray directly onto my just-turned-off FJ engine. It simply boils off and flashes into vapor instantly. No spark + No Ignition.
I was there for one of them...thus my above commentary about fire extinguishers! Yep...Not at all easy to ignite, but man if it ever did!!
Randy has found some major problems with the carbs. :shok: :cray:
The choke circuit and mechanical are jacked up. Definitely the cause of my poor gas mileage over the last 17 months. The float levels were out and allowing too much fuel into the bowls. He also found some ham fisted maintenance from previous owner(s). I am the 4th owner. A fuel pump was connected to the carb bank, the #2,3, and 4 carbs filled with full and stopped when the floats came up. The #1 carb stayed open and had fuel pouring out of the throat. The photos are of the #1 carb showing the fuel pouring out and a bit of bad maintenance. :ireful: :sorry:
Fred
The New Carbs arrived from RPM. I must say, Virgin Carbs sure do look nice. :rofl:
I did a bit of wire maintenance. The red connector from the Alternator was corroded so bad that I could not get it apart. A couple of snips and it was gone. My go to fix is Molex connectors. I still have the 4 pin connector at the steering head to replace, a little melted.
I made good progress with the mechanical stuff. The New intake boots, the almost new heat shield, carbs and UNI pods got installed. Holy smokes, getting carbs to seat into new intake boots is not fun. The New throttle cables are connected at the carbs, but hanging loose. I need to remove the original throttle cables after the before mentioned 4 pin connector gets replaced. If I get an early enough start tomorrow, I may be at a point to give it a start. :yahoo:
Fred
I've been using a blow dryer to soften up my intake boots before installing my carbs.It works well with old stiff boots.
Fred, you bought NEW carburetors? The old ones were not rebuildable? They sure look pretty.
Joe
Quote from: Tuned forks on January 31, 2019, 10:10:20 PM
you bought NEW carburetors? The old ones were not rebuildable?
Joe
Yes, I bought brand new carbs. The pre tuned by RPM versions. The old carbs were damaged beyond repair. A combination of, the Fire and Previous owners ham fisted attacks (maintenance) on the carbs
From the very first tank of fuel when I purchased this bike, I noticed fuel consumption was bad, and much more than even my FJ1300. A few other small things were noticed over the year of ownership that had me questioning the operation of the carbs. Randy confirmed this when he disassembled the carbs.
Fred
I wouldn't say "beyond" repair, but the cost of parts to repair them properly would have been almost equivalent to a new set. If new sets were no longer available. In all likelihood these burned up ones could have been repaired with no problems, along with the problems from previous maintenance. Looks like Fred will be back on the road in no time now. :good2:
Fred, did you put fresh valve bolt cover grommets in? I wonder if the old ones hardened with the heat.
Fine job laddie! You'll be riding this weekend :good:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 01, 2019, 10:53:13 AM
Fred, did you put fresh valve bolt cover grommets in? I wonder if the old ones hardened with the heat.
Fine job laddie! You'll be riding this weekend :good:
They don't appear to have any damage. I will monitor them for leaks after I get the bike up and running.
Fred
The ignition switch connector got a bit melted so it needs changed. The New throttle cables have been installed and everything has been tidyed up. I did get a new fuel line from O'Reilly's. New petcock and fuel filter installed.
Fred
All ready to put fuel in the tank and check for leaks. Primed the carbs and no leaks. :dance2: the bike fired up with some coaxing of added throttle. The idle adjustment was way way low. Made the appropriate adjustment and I have a running FJ again. :yahoo: :music:
Hopefully the video will post.
https://youtu.be/lUPPEr5UBbE
Fred
Fred, because of your work experience, do you use electrical connectors that are aviation rated? I wonder if you don't like the 3M Weatherpack connectors?
Joe
This is turning out to be a hell of a good save, Fred.
Nice work Fred! :good2:
Quote from: Tuned forks on February 01, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
Fred, because of your work experience, do you use electrical connectors that are aviation rated? I wonder if you don't like the 3M Weatherpack connectors?
Joe
I have tried using some actual aircraft connectors and splices. The connectors that are weather proof typical are metal and fairly bulky. The splices have a drawback as they are designed for use with Teflon insulated wires. The insulation is very thin walled and have a very high heat resistance. The problem with motorcycle wires is... The insulation is thicker and not heat resistant at all. To use the environmental splices, the heat shrinkable sleeve barely fits over the insulation and the FJ wires have a tendency to melt and/or char trying to get the sleeves to shrink properly.
I have had great success with the Molex style connectors. They are not much different from most of the FJ connectors.
Fred
Nice work on the repairs Fred.
Troyskie
A late post..... I got about 100 miles on the bike Sunday and it performed flawlessly. Can't wait for Rally season. Bring on the WCR.
Fred
Hence forth this shall be the standard by which teal stripers are judged.
Nailed it on the rebuild.
Nice one Fred.
The Phoenix has risen. Good job Fred.
Joe
Wow. Just wow.
You did an Impressive save When the fire started! nice looking carbs and bike :yes:
A productive day today. The replacement left side panel arrived. Installed the used oil cooler. It appears to be a RPM cooler that has never had oil in it. The brackets already had the mounting holes drilled. It may have been installed, but never ran. The hoses are fabric braided verses the stainless steel braided hoses on my previous RPM oil cooler.
Replaced both of the damaged side panels. No ABS logos, since the ABS system has been removed.
Fred
Noice!
Did you get the cooler from RPM? Along with the fabric braid the hose lengths look different.
On the coolers I've installed the hoses needed to criss cross to the opposite sides of the pan fittings.
Nice work Fred! So happy you got that fire out before the fuel line melted.... :good:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 10, 2019, 02:19:56 AM
Did you get the cooler from RPM? Along with the fabric braid the hose lengths look different.
On the coolers I've installed the hoses needed to criss cross to the opposite sides of the pan fittings.
Nice work Fred! So happy you got that fire out before the fuel line melted.... :good:
While trolling through ebay looking for replacement parts for the burned and melted pieces. I came across this USED oil cooler. I recognized it as appearing to be a RPM oil cooler with the Black fitting option. The add stated that it was installed on a bike that had been broken down for parts. The price was significantly less than a new RPM oil cooler, so I jumped on it. If it is not a RPM cooler, it is a well done clone.
Fred
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 10, 2019, 02:19:56 AM
Did you get the cooler from RPM? Along with the fabric braid the hose lengths look different.
On the coolers I've installed the hoses needed to criss cross to the opposite sides of the pan fittings.
I am pretty sure that is the RPM cooler. We supplied the black fitting with a nylon black braided hose at the beginning. But soon found out the black dye fades and the hose turns white. It has been a bunch of years since we have send one out like that.
Fred, you might see if the hoses fit better crossed as Pat mentioned. Also, you need to be very careful. The hose routing bracket you are using can put a lot of tension on the cooler and cause it to crack.
Randy - RPM