Hi All,
Could use a little advice. Would kind of like to ride after the long winter. A couple of weeks ago, I started the bike and shut it off, then tried to restart. Nothing happened. So I pulled the battery and put it back on the trickle charger for a few days until I had time to give it another shot. I installed the battery in the bike and then have left it for a couple of days. I just started it up and checked voltage to be sure it was actually charging. The engine sounds all good. The meter read 12.4V key off and 12.7V at idle, and 15.2 at 2000rpm. So after running for 5 minutes to warm up, I shut it off. I tried to restart and same thing as before. I have power everywhere with key on but nothing.
It ran perfectly fine all last year after an alternator replacement and the new battery. Yes, the kill switch is on, it's in neutral, the key is on and fuel pressure up, the kick stand safety switch is out. Makes no sense to me. The starter cranked it fine and engine started right up, then nothing after i shut it off and try to start again.
Anyone have any ideas? Thanks.
The age/wear of the switches may be the problem, try cycling the kill switch a few times.
Mark may be on to something.
When you shut the bike off, do you use the red run/stop switch, or the key?
If you use the run/stop switch, and when you go to restart (run/stop set back on run) and you thumb the starter button, do you then see 2 red lights in your gauge cluster?
Those lights being the 1) The red fuel warning light and 2) the red oil level light.
If you do, then it's your run/stop switch.
Not it?
Your sidestand switch may look ok...but, to tell for sure, jump around it and see if the problem goes away.
Follow the electrical line from your sidestand switch up to the plug under the left side panel, unplug, and on the engine side of the plug, jump the 2 male prongs together with 2 female spade connectors and a short piece of wire. This will isolate your side stand switch out of the start/no start equation.
Easily reversible.
When you thumb the starter button, do you hear the click of the starter relay? You should.
Before ordering a new relay, check and clean all your connections.
15.2 volts is high charging voltage...tolerable for vented lead acid batteries (just add water) but a guaranteed early death for sealed AGM's. Don't ask me how I know. Consider the Transpo Voltage Regulator mod.
If you do have an AGM and the resting voltage is 12.4V then your battery has a ~50% charge.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=3292.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=3292.0)
Still, it should be enough to start the bike...barely.
Great info guys. I had considered the kill or starter switch and wanted to look at all potential issues. What should the voltage be at 2000rpm?
I went out to try it again and of course, the thing starts up every time so has to be a moody contact in the switches or relay.
Maybe a hammer will help? :negative:
I appreciate the help. Thanks.
Depends, what kind of battery do you have?
Lead acid? You're ok @ 15.2 volts. Not the best, but ok. IIRC it's within the Yamaha service specifications. Remember, the lead acid battery was the battery that was oem on our FJ's.
When lead acid batteries get a high charge rate they boil off the electrolyte, and vent sulphuric acid and hydrogen gas, no biggie, just add distilled water. Just make sure that vent hose is connected and open for venting. Before the Transpo VR mod, on long tours, I have boiled my battery dry on a few occasions.
AGM? Read your manufacturer's installation specifications. All of the AGM specs that I've read list the maximum charging voltage to be 14.6 volts.
When sealed AGM's get a high charge rate, they are not happy. They are sealed with no way to vent or relieve the excess voltage.
AGM's are happy @ 14.2-14.4 volts which is where I set the Transpo VR. (It's adjustable)
Lithium? I have no clue as to the maximum charging voltage. Others will chime in...
So mine is an AGM Yuasa YTX14AHL-BS. I actually replaced the VR with an RPM, as well as the alternator and battery at the same time. So this should never charge above 14.2-14.4 or they will cook? It has to be the VR.
I'll check again in the morning. Thanks again.
Some back history: The story as it was told to me, in 1982 when Yamaha was designing the FJ as an endurance racer, the flag ship of the Yamaha line, they knew about the new Honda V4 design used in the soon to be released 500/750/1000 Interceptor's. A narrow engine. In racing, narrow is good.
The typical UJM air cooled inline 4 was, by then, considered a dated design, successful for sure, durable no doubt, but dated. Yamaha wanted and chose durability. We are all glad about that choice.
One of the problems with the large displacement inline 4 design was the width of the engine, so, instead of traditionally hanging the generator off the side of the engine, Yamaha managed to reduce the engine width by 4" by tucking the generator behind the cylinder block. I recall a sales brochure claiming this new 1100cc FJ engine was no wider than a 750. Cool huh? Well, as it turns out, not so cool.
That also happens to be where the voltage regulator resides, right next to the generator.
It's all about location, location, location. The VR is now in a hot environment coupled with engine vibrations, and in my opinion, a bad environment for solid state components.
The FJ's have always had problems with the VR's overcharging, since 1984. One minute they work within spec, the next minute, they're passing thru 15.5 volts and higher. Usually in the middle of a long hot ride. They go crazy. I get home, hook up my multi tester, and everything looks fine...but why did my battery boil dry?
****Do you guys wonder why your red plug is melting?*** That is abby normal (love that movie)
The best solution I have found is to get the VR away from that environment, thus the remote mounted Transpo VR mod. Never a worry since then. I believe all FJ's need this mod. Get the VR away from the engine heat and vibrations. Especially if you are running non oem AGM batteries, or God help you, $$$ lithium.
If you think the mod is a hassle or not needed, no worries, just don't complain when your AGM's only last 2 years (or less)
As Jimmy Buffet sang, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it..." Peace out.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 17, 2018, 02:00:49 AM
The FJ's have always had problems with the VR's overcharging, since 1984. One minute they work within spec, the next minute, they're passing thru 15.5 volts and higher. Usually in the middle of a long hot ride. They go crazy. I get home, hook up my multi tester, and everything looks fine...but why did my battery boil dry?
****Do you guys wonder why your red plug is melting?*** That is abby normal (love that movie)
The best solution I have found is to get the VR away from that environment, thus the remote mounted Transpo VR mod. Never a worry since then. I believe all FJ's need this mod. Get the VR away from the engine heat and vibrations. Especially if you are running non oem AGM batteries, or God help you, $$$ lithium.
Great Story about the reason why the Generator is where it is But
You're starting to scare me there Pat.. :shok:
My Lithium Battery has been great for the past 3 years, no need for a battery tender. After sitting for a month it will start first go, plenty of cranking BUT after this talk of OEM VR's overcharging I might have to install the Bosch VR I have on the shelf just in case
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 17, 2018, 02:00:49 AMThe FJ's have always had problems with the VR's overcharging, since 1984. One minute they work within spec, the next minute, they're passing thru 15.5 volts and higher. Usually in the middle of a long hot ride. They go crazy. I get home, hook up my multi tester, and everything looks fine...but why did my battery boil dry? The best solution I have found is to get the VR away from that environment, thus the remote mounted Transpo VR mod. Never a worry since then. I believe all FJ's need this mod. Get the VR away from the engine heat and vibrations. Especially if you are running non oem AGM batteries, or God help you, $$$ lithium.
.
Nobody needs to be hoping or guessing about the charging voltage, while riding. This voltmeter costs less than US$6.00 and comes with red or green digits. It just pops into a square hole, and it's small. Free shipping if it's in a US$25.00 total purchase from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DUTIPRS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DUTIPRS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I would want it connected as close (electrically) to the battery as possible, and it's a good idea to feed those skinny input wires into realistic-sized wires for motorcycles to make the journey. An aftermarket voltage regulator, located in a cool spot, is also a good idea, but either way, the voltmeter tells the tale when the VR fails to do it's job.
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I know you said you put new battery in LAST year, but if the bike sat for the winter it could be toast. It happened to me. Then you have enough charge to spin it once, but if you shut the bike off after just warming up it didn't have time to recharge. I had the same exact symptom on my GPz 550.
When you warm the bike and it won't start, try putting in another battery that you know it is good or jump it from a car. If it turns over - there you have it.
Battery voltage is not the only tell-tale sign of a battery condition. Often it shows good voltage, but it just loses capacity and is not able to turn over.
Regarding the intermittent starting, I think it may be the Start button. Just tried it and it failed to start then a couple of more presses and it started. Battery was out of the bike and on maintenance charge all winter. Oil changed and tank topped off and with conditioner when I parked it last fall.
As far as the charging goes, I just measured it at 12.1 at key off, 12.4 at 1000rpm and at first 15.1 at 2000 to 4000 rpm, then shut it off and back on and down to 14.8 at 2000 to 4000. Still too high for the AGM. So I am guessing I need to try the Transpo VR.
Is this the right one? Searched Transpo IB301A
https://www.amazon.com/HEAVY-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-ADJUSTABLE-FEATURE/dp/B014GN1YLK (https://www.amazon.com/HEAVY-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-ADJUSTABLE-FEATURE/dp/B014GN1YLK)
Edit: I'm looking elsewhere on-line because it seems a bit much.
That sure looks like the IB301A Transpo regulator ....Although I'm surprised at the price. $18 is half price.. Ain't China grand?
In 2004 I paid $37 for mine: (scroll down) : http://cpgenerator.com/voltageregulators.html (http://cpgenerator.com/voltageregulators.html)
Instructions for the mod are here: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 17, 2018, 04:44:13 PM
That sure looks like the IB301A Transpo regulator ....Although I'm surprised at the price. $18 is half price.. Ain't China grand?
In 2004 I paid $37 for mine: (scroll down) : http://cpgenerator.com/voltageregulators.html (http://cpgenerator.com/voltageregulators.html)
Instructions for the mod are here: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0)
The one on Amazon added a wack of shipping charges at checkout so its way more than expected.
Thanks for these links. I was searching around the threads here for these references. I don't need to fry another battery.
If the problem is on warm engine then in my opinion You have to "fix" starter.
You have to take out starter and clean and slightly bend 3 connectors, which are responsible for connect starter with engine neutral (-).
In time those connectors looses proper contact - especially after engine is litle warm up
This photo (shamelessly snatch from other forum) says all:
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on May 18, 2018, 01:48:13 PM
If the problem is on warm engine then in my opinion You have to "fix" starter.
You have to take out starter and clean and slightly bend 3 connectors, which are responsible for connect starter with engine neutral (-).
In time those connectors looses proper contact - especially after engine is litle warm up
This photo (shamelessly snatch from other forum) says all:
Thanks. I will check that too. Not into breaking down again. It happened when my alternator went and battery died. Good times.