Hi all. As you may know I have swapped my 1100 motor over to a 3cv 1200 motor in my 84 FJ.
Firstly let me tell you I love this motor. It runs sweet. My issue is getting it running.
My starter motor is not engaging properly. I have even swapped the starter over for another with the same result.
When I press the go button it will engage then "throw out" and just wizzes away without turning to motor over.
I hope thus all makes sense. Help
Mark
Sounds like your starter clutch is not engaging. I read somewhere on here about how changing oil viscosity can help with this - maybe do a search on that? Otherwise you need to split the cases to get to the starter clutch, I believe.
Thanks Hillsy. That could very well be the issue. I put some cheap "run in" oil in the bike when I first out it started (last weekend) as the .motor had been sitting for an unspecified amount of time. I was planned on dropping this oil out this weekend and putting in some quality Penrite bike specific oil. Hope this may fix it.
Mark
Mark, it's got nothing with the quality of oil, it's the viscosity that causes the problem. I have a similar issue so I use lighter grade oil during winter and swap to a thicker oil during summer. If you are already using a light weight oil, you have a serious problem with your starter clutch. Hope this is not the case!
Regards, Pete.
Yes, that sounds like the starter clutch. My 86' did not seem to care what oil I used or what temperature it is. My 89' starter clutch is more oil/temp sensitive. Considering the frigid temps we get here in SoCal, its a wonder I am not using WD-40 instead. Now where did I put the Margarita mix...
I am going to hope it is just the Gulf western oil, as it seem to have been progressively worse over the week. Maybe it has some friction modifiers I didn't know about.
OK. Word to the wise. Don't use this Gulf Western Oil. No good for clutches. Changed over to the Penrite 15/50 mineral bike specific oil. After 4 started all fixed. Thank you to all who helped.
I'll be damned....
Judging by the API classification it seems like a car oil?
Hey all. It seems that I do indeed have start clutch issues. After originally thinking it was wrong oil, but after trying 3 different oils and 2 starter motors it is still a bugger to start cold. Once I do start it and it is warmed up, it starts fine.
Is splitting the cases the only way to fix/replace the starter clutch?
Mark
Mark,
This topic has been discussed many times over the years. If you have to service/replace the the starter clutch the bottom case must be removed.
The starter clutch was a weak design from day one. It has already be mentioned the oil viscosity plays a significant role in the slippage of the starter clutch.
The FJ clutch uses three springs and rollers. If the springs are clogged up or the roller surface is dirty, the starter clutch will do what you are describing.
I know that is a new to you engine, so the internal condition is unknown.
If it was mine, I would change the oil again. I would use a lighter viscosity, like a 5w-30 mineral oil; no synthetics. I would also put one quart/liter of automatic transmission fluid in replacing one liter of motor oil. The ATF is very high in detergent and will clean the internal components of the engine including the starter clutch.
I would run that oil for at least 500 miles but most likely 1000 miles before changing it. When I change it I would look and the condition of the oil coming out. If clean then the starter clutch will have to be serviced.
If the oil comes out dirty, then I might run it again with another quart of ATF for another 1000 miles.
If the problem does not subside then the starter clutch will need to be rebuilt or replaced. If you get to that point, your best bet is to replace it with the upgraded XJR1300 spray design.
Randy - RPM
Hi Randy/Robert
Thanks for the info
I am willing to try all non invasive solutions at this stage. Current oil is 10-40w synthetic with 750ml of oil stabilizer added (Moreys oil stabilizer) I will try this over the week, then will be tryin your 5-30w with ATF added solution. I have started pricing stater clutch replacement kits. This is not something that I saw on the RPM site. Do you sell them. If so could you PM me the details for everything that I will need. (starter kit, gaskets etc) please.
Mark
For the time being you need to dump the synthetic oils. You need to clean the inside, not make it more slippery with synthetic oil.
Robert will work on the parts list this week.
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy
I have sent an email from the RPM site.
I had a look around town today. The lightest mineral oil I can find at the moment it 10/30w. I will keep looking. Might even try EBay.
Mark
That 10w-30 will work fine.
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy. OK hopefully 3rd time lucky. Oils and oil filter purchased. Will change it out tonight. Finger crossed for a result soon.
Mark
Mark,
We actually just got the roller style rebuild springs and detents in. We have been working with a company for a while to get the springs and detents to be able to rebuild the starter clutch, or you can also completely do away with the old roller style that came standard in the FJ and upgrade to the sprag style they use in the XJR which will prevent the springs loosing tension in the future and eliminate all the associated problems. I have listed them below, the complete rebuild kit comes with everything you will need to split the case and either rebuild or upgrade the starter clutch and it gives you an option for either.
Complete Starter Clutch Rebuild Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CompleteStarterClutchKit)
FJ1100/1200 Starter Clutch Spring Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=StarterClutchRebuild)
Sprag Starter Clutch (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=StarterSprag)
Thank you Robert. I am still hoping that Randy's solution will work, and I won't have to split the case, but glad I have options.
Mark
I put 400 km on the bike yesterday. Unfortunately the starting issue dowsn't seem to be resolving itself. Just need to save up some dollars and do the fix properly.
I will keep you all posted.
Mark
Quote from: Urban_Legend on May 03, 2018, 08:09:28 PM
I put 400 km on the bike yesterday. Unfortunately the starting issue dowsn't seem to be resolving itself. Just need to save up some dollars and do the fix properly.
I will keep you all posted.
Mark
Mark, while you're saving up for repairs, keep putting the miles on it with the lighter viscosity oil and transmission fluid.
You put 250 US miles on it, keep going for
at least 750 more.
It takes time for the detergent in the ATF to breakdown a contaminated engine.
Keep it up, if the starter clutch can be cleaned up it will take some more miles.
Randy - RPM
Well my starting issues have finally got the better of me. I went for a ride with a mate last weekend, and the bike performed beautifully. So happy with how the "new" 1200 motor is running, except for the starting. However. I have been unable to start the bike for the last 3 days. This is an issue as the bike is my main for of transport. So Randy/Robert, expected an order for the start clutch kit in the next few hours. Unfortunately I can't afford to go up to the XJR version.
Nark
This is where a removable Kickstarter would come in handy, like the XS1100 had for an emergency. These old tanks weigh a ton when trying to push start.
Here's a short vid of what is happening
https://youtu.be/SHY9hhP9jpg
Today I got the motor puller out......again :dash2:
Drained the oil first and checked it out. There were some very fine metal bits and the oil still had good color. My Starter clutch rebuild kit should arrive from RPM in the next few days. Not sure how I will go splitting the cases. Is there anything to watch out for?
Mark
The book says that to split the cases you must first remove the clutch. Done that. Had a good helper in the shed today too.
The metal bits will not be from the starer clutch, they are most likely from the transmission. Post up a couple of photos of the findings so I can see them
Make sure, double & triple check you have all of the bolts out of the case before trying to separate. There are a couple down in "holes" that get debris on the top of the bolt and hides them.
There is one bolt hidden by the oil pump and not able to be removed until you remove the pump.
There are 37 bolts holding the cases together, count them before you try separating the cases.
Once you get it apart, then you can access the start clutch.
Keep up the good work & updates.
Randy - RPM
Randy
Once all of the bolts are out and the couple of bearing keepers removed that span across the two halves of the case, should it come apart neatly into the 2 halves, or are there bits that may fall out. Is there a definit top half (crank, pistions) and bottom half ( Gear Box)
Which bit did you want photos of? The filings or the gears and crank?
I had good advice from Noel ( Ribbett) about putting all of the crank bolt into a piece of card board and number them.
Thank you for your help. Its just a bugger when the motor was running it was really strong....its just getting it running that is the issue.
Ta
Mark
Nothing should fall out. Usually the transmission will stay in the upper case.
Photos of the filings.
Randy - RPM
Randy
I had poured the oil into a container for disposal. I have strained it though and old pair of my girlfriends stockings (yes I asked her first) and the particles were so fine that it don't capture them.
Only noticed then as a very faint sparkles in the oil pan when I went in the sun to pour into the container. Any foreign bits you see in the photo is grass that made its way into the oil pan
Mark
On the upside. I now have the motor off the ground onto a metal trestle table for the tear down.
Quote from: Urban_Legend on May 21, 2018, 02:53:39 AM
Randy
...very faint sparkles in the oil pan when I went in the sun....
It's just your bike living up to it's name.
Mark, if you've ever had a magnetic sump plug you will have noticed that when you wipe it there is always a fine deposit on it, almost like a course paste and then there's the aluminium.
Fine particle "glitter" is not unusual, particularly on bikes where everything runs in the same oil, even the clutch. The sun is magnified through the oil and reflects off the particles. The copper/brass colour often referred to is simply the oil colouring it.
IMO
Noel
My parts arrived from RPM yesterday. So now its time to really start on this job. I have my son staying with me for a few weeks, so I have decided that he can learn about bike maintenance. 1st photo is the bits that I need to install to hopefully fix this. Second is approximately where they have to go.
Mark
Hmmm. A little bit of crud on the inside.
Pulled the oil pump filter and there was a fair bit of debris in it. A lot is obviously excess sealant from the factory, but there are a few sizable metal shards in it too.
I think this is what's called progress. All bolts out in sequence. A light tap with the rubber mallet and apart she comes. Getting closer to fixing this thing
New clutch fingers and springs now installed along with new cush drive rubbers. Now to clean up the cases and put is all back together.
Congrats. ,,,,,,Great work Mark,, You can do this Mate ,,,, :good:
Hey. I need to finish this story with a happy ending. So please bear with me for a bit. Here is my run down for the last 3 days.....it has been huge.
On Saturday I had a mate offer to give me a hand with the motor. As already stated we split the cases and installed the new starter clutch parts. Assuming all was good, we put the motor back in the bike, wired her up, turned the key, pressed the button and....... Well let's just say I was not impressed.
Convinced we had missed something, pulled the motor again. Split the cases amd called it a night.
Sunday. We inspect our work. Toy with pulling bits out of the old 1100 motor...nah. This will work
Clean everything. Double check our work. Screw it together, reinstall (bench testing didn't occur to us at this stage). Wires connected. Hit the button. Arrrr. No improvement. In fact seemed worse. Cooked the starter solenoid, so resorted to straight power to the starter motor. 10pm by this stage.
Today. 8:30am start. New record. We had the motor out of the bike and cases split like an oyster in 90 minutes flat. Had the old 1100 split 30 mins later. Swapped into the 1200 the complete starter clutch set up from the 1100, excluding the new cush drive, which we kept for the 1200. Buttoned up the 1200 motor. Bench tested the starter with plugs out first, seemed good. Then plugs in. Still good.
Let's go for it. We had the motor back in the bike and ready to fire at 4pm. Fingers crossed.
Hit the go button (screwdriver across the solenoid terminals). 3 winds of the motor and we HAVE IGNITION. YYYYEEEESSSSS.
Time for a beer and some ACDC tunes. Quick run to the local bike shop, got a new starter solenoid. Install. Test fire. Bang. Instant success.
So quick round up. 3 days. Motor in and out 3 times. 4 times cases split and 3 times together (1100 still apart) I tired now. Need a ride as reward.
Thank you all for your help, and my mate who stuck it out for 3 days with me.
Mark
Thank you all for your advice.
:yahoo:
Congrats! Good on ya for sticking it out!