I was putting around the internet today and came across these articles:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2018/02/18/harley-davidson-stands-plans-close-kansas-city-plant/349928002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2018/02/18/harley-davidson-stands-plans-close-kansas-city-plant/349928002/)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/01/30/harley-davidson-kansas-city-plant-motorcycle-sales-fall/1078008001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/01/30/harley-davidson-kansas-city-plant-motorcycle-sales-fall/1078008001/)
I this what is being noted industry wide or is it as the article mentions, the younger generation just is not as keen about the "hog" as the "Baby Boomers".
Randy - RPM
I don't think the younger generation is not appreciative of Hardley. I think this is indicative of a lack of interest in motorcycles in general. They would like to stay inside and play video games and text on their phones. Times are changing.
Dave
Think HD has trouble now, wait until the EU and the rest of the world retaliates with their tariff.
Oh, wait...that's right, "trade wars are easy to win..."
Interesting to see HD's recent investment in electrics....they must have something in mind.
From what I have seen reported in the news. The millenials are like Dave said.... much more interested in staying indoors, playing video games, texting and skyping. Many of the young adults in the major coastal cities of the US do not even have a driver's license. Takes too much effort and is too bothersome. Why do all that and own a car when mass transit can take me where I need to go?
The problem I see with Harley is.... they relied on the baby boomer and generation X, basically everyone over 35 to have sufficient income to afford $15,000-$20,000 motorcycles. They are late to dinner in bringing the two small entry level models into play. Yamaha has a homerun in the FZ07 and the Bolt series. Honda has their entry level redesigned Rebel models. Great bikes in the $4000-$5000 range. Harley can not compete with that.
Fred
Quote from: TexasDave on March 10, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
I don't think the younger generation is not appreciative of Hardley. I think this is indicative of a lack of interest in motorcycles in general.
Dave
Gen Y, and now Gen Z with even less disposable income, have many other, less-expensive, fun things competing for their hard earned dollars. May as well forget about them carrying on the motorcycling torch here.
It's not just the HD sales in this country that are down.
Scooter and small motorcycles sales are thriving in other markets around the world.
Interesting Article About It With Royal Enfield Slant (https://newatlas.com/royal-enfield-worlds-top-selling-big-bike-indian-motorcycle-market/50859/)
HD is betting some of their farm on the forecasted electric motorcycle market.
Electric Motorcycles and Scooter Sales Forecast (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20140825005740/en/55-Million-Electric-Motorcycles-Scooters-Sold-Worldwide)
I think there are a number of factors currently at play.
- Back in "our day" that first car or motorcycle provided us with that first taste of freedom and autonomy. It was how we got around to meet up with our friends and get in trouble. Kids today have so many other options to stay in contact with their friends without leaving the house.
- Insurance rates (at least in Ontario) can be astronomical for new drivers and riders. It's not uncommon for a new rider to be quoted $6K per year for motorcycle insurance. That's a show stopper.
- Post secondary education rates keep going up and up well beyond the rate of inflation.
- When I got my first bike (1983) it really was a cheap mode of transportation. Add up the costs to keep a bike on the road today and include decent riding gear and again it becomes too expensive. Up here a motorcycle is not a year round mode of transportation. A small car us way cheaper. We just picked up a little Mazda 3 hatchback as a second vehicle and I'm guessing it gets as good or better mileage than my FJ.
- a young person on their own these days likely pays at least $50 per month for a phone, close to that for Internet plus a Netflix account, all of this over and above housing and food and there's not much left over for a motorcycle.
As far as HD goes, we have 6 of the Street 500's at the College and thought that they might be a great bike for the students to practice on. The short answer is nope. They're heavy and clumsy. And that's HD's "small" bike! I remember the first time I rode one I kept thinking that the engine had a familiar sound to it. Then it struck me - it sounds like a 1985 Honda Shadow! Way to catch up Harley! Oh, and now fuel gauge either. Over all, a very disappointing bike.
Zwartie
Despite the economic doom and gloom, and the volumes of accurate reasoning about generations and expenses, and education and employment and tariffs, all motorcycling needs is a bloody good movie, a great actor, a few "one liners" an awesome soundtrack and a good dose of rebellious counter culture!
Most biking groups these days ride lounge chairs or simply drive, all are followed by the back up car and trailer, sadly most kids get their kicks from riding bikes in video games, at least they can go fast!
All over the world kids are getting bikes to save money, screw over their parents, impress their girl, and irritate grandma. Little has changed. All over the world 40 somethings are getting a bike to relive a period in their life that didn't involve a mortgage, income insurance, and some kid being their boss. Little has changed.
The industry will change, riders will buy bikes accordingly, India is knocking out Royal Enfields by the thousand, China makes millions of bikes every year, South East Asia could almost put the scooter on a flag they are that popular! I think many economists use specific industry's based in America or Europe as key economic indicators, largely ignoring industry's elsewhere that are growing, simply because they are not based in the Northern Hemisphere. Harley not selling a few thousand bikes compared to last year is a mere drop in the bucket of global bike production, Harley is a niche company that relies on a small slice of the market, succeeding in that slice takes huge skill, good machinery, awesome paint jobs, and merchandising miracles.
Get Brad Pitt or Chris Hemsworth on a bike and watch the sales rocket!
...despite a plea by Missouri congressional leaders who reminded the iconic motorcycle maker of the millions of dollars in incentives the state gave to it over the past two decades.
The Ontario gov't said the same thing to GM after they were given 10's of millions, then they moved production out of province, months after "guaranteeing" they wouldn't. Corporate welfare deadbeats, and politicians too stupid to craft an agreement with no penalties for forfeiture.
If this bigly winnable trade war escalates you will see HD lobby the feds like they did in the 80's and tariff the shit out of everything or limit engine ccs on foreign built bikes until they can get their shit together. Again.
If they are entering the ebike market there will be massive subsidies just like with cars.
Maybe they'll end up being the Kodak of the m/c industry.
If you live in the USA and plan on buying a new bike not built there, better make it sooner than later.
Of course only MHO grasshopper. (popcorn)
Lots of valid points in there Gareth.
They all do it but none more so than Harley, they sell an image and it's the image that's tired. They're still pitching to the same demographic they were decades ago and increasingly people do not aspire to that image.
There is nothing a Harley does well yet they remain like a plague over the countryside. If you de badged a Harley (remove the image), can anyone give me a one solitary reason why you would buy one.
Average annual mileage by make in the USA puts Harleys at 1100 miles per year.
Noel
Harley is in trouble because for years they sold "lifestyle" rather than motorcycles. They sold nostalgia and feels, and people who bought them are getting older, quitting bikes, dying off.
Motorcycling in general is in trouble, too. At least in US. A huge part of why this is so is the dumbass laws we have. We had them for years.
US is just about the only country that doesn't allow filtering or lane splitting in some form. Everywhere else bikes have an advantage in traffic. In many cities parking rules are similarly stupid - you can't just park the bike where it fits. I've actually been ticketed for "not parking in a parking space". So, from a practical standpoint, if you have to drive and park like a car, why not just get a car?
In most (maybe all? ) US states you can't get just a motorcycle license. It's an endorsement on a car license, so even if you don't intend to ever own a car, you have to get two licenses. So, you're not saving any time or money.
The main problem, though, is that it's ridiculously hard to get a kid on two wheels. Mopeds need a car license, over-50cc motorcycles need a bike license, which is a pain to get under 18. Over 18, see above - need two licenses. A farm kid can bomb around on a dirt bike, but if you live in the city, you're pretty much screwed. I tried to get my kid a moped permit at 16, but it's a huge pain the ass, and even the DMV doesn't know how that's supposed to work. Plus, the only mopeds we have these days are scooters. There isn't anything that would look like a bike.
Harley is making some motions to appeal to the younger crowd. They aren't going far (or young) enough.
Manufacturers need to look at getting teenagers interested. Make small-engined bikes that look like bikes, and aren't sized for 5-year olds. Put some money in riding schools and tracks. Help them get permits so that a small bike can be a ride to school transport.
Some lobbying to change laws to make motorcycles more appealing would be nice, but there doesn't seem to be anyone to do it. AMA only cares about dirt trails and resisting helmet laws, and I haven't heard of any other organizations.
Quote from: JPaganel on March 23, 2018, 12:01:51 PM
A huge part of why this is so is the dumbass laws we have. We had them for years.
Not to go off on a tangent... but I will anyhow...
Back in the early 90's I was in downtown Toronto working at a job site. It was inside the Royal York Hotel and in the lane behind there were a bunch of bikes parked up on a wide walkway next to a waist high concrete wall. Great, I'll park there. When I came out later after midnight there was a m/c cop giving me a ticket for parking there. WTF I bitched. He said if I put my cover over the bike he couldn't give me a ticket. Lifting the cover would be the same as opening a car door to leave it on the dash - he said as he tucked the ticket into my seat and rode off. Gee thanks.
It was also illegal to park more than one bike in a parking spot on the street. Well they got rid of that a while ago. Congestion was so bad they then allowed free street parking for m/c's about 10 yrs ago. That was great until they reneged and cancelled that perk over a year ago.
So in the future when self driving cars become a reality, what happens to motorcycles?
Sorry it's 3am at work and I'm bored. :pardon:
I also believe here in Ontario it's getting to a point where you need a good income to even afford to ride.I'm 50 and no tickets and my insurance was almost 900 a year...we get at best 8 months riding,I hear some companies are banning bikes leaving us to a few companies to deal with..IMO it's getting to a point where people can't afford to ride.
Quote from: PaulG on March 24, 2018, 02:10:01 AM
So in the future when self driving cars become a reality, what happens to motorcycles?
We are just another moving obstacle.
Coming from a younger guy here ( only 21), I'm in this generation. I dont think that many of the issues listed here are actually the problem. I mean, a few people mentioned cost. Yes, upkeep is a little expensive, but insurance isnt all that much. I pay a measly $19 a month for midline motorcycle coverage. Its not the best, but its also not base coverage. I think that the reason motorcyclists are a dying breed is simply because people these days arent as willing to take risks. People in general have become followers. They see others going out to clubs, or staying in, or doing whatever else, and they assume thats its safe and fun to follow. But riding a motorcycle involves risk, and they arent comfortable with that. Unless they know someone who rides, they are likely only going to hear time and again that motorcycling is dangerous, and not worth the risk. Like Mr. Blackstock said, as soon as someone says that they are okay, like in a movie, or a show, well see it boom again. Kids these days need something to follow. They wont choose to get get a bike, they have to be told to.
Quote from: ryanschoebel on March 24, 2018, 11:35:34 PM
I pay a measly $19 a month for midline motorcycle coverage. Its not the best, but its also not base coverage.
WTF? :mad: I pay +/- $100/month with +/- 30yrs of riding. Now each of us has an appreciation of the factors that form our perspective on this subject. If I had rates like that I'd probably have 1/2 dozen bikes. Like Sabre093 pointed out (and we in Ontario have bitched about this before), it's getting unaffordable for many people to ride. Insurance companies insure us only because they legally have to, but they'll make us pay through the teeth for it. About 50% of the value of my bike just goes into insurance every year. For new rders forget it.
Quote from: ryanschoebel on March 24, 2018, 11:35:34 PM
Like Mr. Blackstock said, as soon as someone says that they are okay, like in a movie, or a show, well see it boom again. Kids these days need something to follow. They wont choose to get get a bike, they have to be told to.
What we need is a modernized version of On Any Sunday to raise public conciousness - if that's possible. "Stressed out? Need a Vicadin or Oxy? Forget it! Get a motorcycle instead!" Oh well. If there are fewer riders on the road, then that just makes the road more open for us. If it wasn't for the fucking cars. Oh yeah, and winter... :scratch_one-s_head:
You guys back east are really getting screwed. I was able to insure my 86 FJ for $275 a year with a collector plate. Only thing I couldnt do was ride the bike to work. To have a collector plate you had to have a primary source transportation. Should mention that this is in BC. Without the plate my insurance would have been over 1200 a year
My FJ's are insured as antiques. Full coverage and $250/year for 4 bikes. A few restrictions but generally not a problem.
QuoteMy FJ's are insured as antiques.
Makes sense, an antique rider for antique bikes :rofl:
Quote from: carey on March 27, 2018, 03:49:36 PM
QuoteMy FJ's are insured as antiques.
Makes sense, an antique rider for antique bikes :rofl:
Hey--I represent that! :ireful:
A lot of the insurance expense involves what coverage you get. I have had Progressive for the 12 years I've owned my FJ but only liability coverage. So the insurance company is only responsible for the damage I do to someone else's property. And I said that I only ride 2000 miles a year - which seems to be very close to actual. My logic is that the bike doesn't have a replacement value worth the premium of comprehensive insurance. My yearly insurance premium is something like $95. But then again, I'm an old man with a clean driving record. :good2:
Quote from: carey on March 27, 2018, 03:49:36 PM
QuoteMy FJ's are insured as antiques.
Makes sense, an antique rider for antique bikes :rofl:
I prefer "classic" but will take antique over dead...... :yahoo:
Quote from: fjbiker84 on March 27, 2018, 08:02:05 PM
A lot of the insurance expense involves what coverage you get. I have had Progressive for the 12 years I've owned my FJ but only liability coverage. So the insurance company is only responsible for the damage I do to someone else's property. And I said that I only ride 2000 miles a year - which seems to be very close to actual. My logic is that the bike doesn't have a replacement value worth the premium of comprehensive insurance. My yearly insurance premium is something like $95. But then again, I'm an old man with a clean driving record. :good2:
With antique insurance you get the best of both liability and full coverage. As long as you keep the declared value reasonable they won't require an appraisal. They require pictures so a heavily modified bike might not work.
In BC if you call it an antique you can only use it for parades and shows.Needs to be collector status to ridden regularly
Quote from: Motofun on March 28, 2018, 07:16:53 AM
Quote from: carey on March 27, 2018, 03:49:36 PM
QuoteMy FJ's are insured as antiques.
Makes sense, an antique rider for antique bikes :rofl:
I prefer "classic" but will take antique over dead...... :yahoo:
"Vintage" Or maybe, "Timeless"
Quote from: rlucas on March 28, 2018, 09:39:58 AM
Quote from: Motofun on March 28, 2018, 07:16:53 AM
Quote from: carey on March 27, 2018, 03:49:36 PM
QuoteMy FJ's are insured as antiques.
Makes sense, an antique rider for antique bikes :rofl:
I prefer "classic" but will take antique over dead...... :yahoo:
"Vintage" Or maybe, "Timeless"
Unfortunately these days I know it's not ageless ...
Maybe the bike needs to change to capture the younger generation.
Facebook vid
https://www.facebook.com/WTFuture/videos/385928431876033/ (https://www.facebook.com/WTFuture/videos/385928431876033/)
Quote from: fj1289 on March 28, 2018, 10:09:59 AM
Unfortunately these days I know it's not ageless ...
"Hey, little girl...wanna see my patina?"
:hi:
I work at a multi-line dealership in the midwest and can tell you what I'm seeing -
Motorcycles are not selling
ATV's sell more than motorcycles
UTV's are the hot ticket for sales - Both utility and sport
I was excited to see the Kawasaki Z900RS come out. #1235 arrived at our shop, I prepped it myself.
What a bike, fell in love, but seriously, $11,000.00 for a new bike when I already have a motorcycle that does everything I want it too, and then some.
Quote from: FJ1200W on March 31, 2018, 05:43:09 PM
.... but seriously, $11,000.00 for a new bike when I already have a motorcycle that does everything I want it too, and then some.
Bingo!
Quote from: FJ1200W on March 31, 2018, 05:43:09 PM
I was excited to see the Kawasaki Z900RS come out. #1235 arrived at our shop, I prepped it myself.
What a bike, fell in love, but seriously, $11,000.00 for a new bike when I already have a motorcycle that does everything I want it too, and then some.
Yeah, and if you look at the performance specs on the Kawi, they don't even hold up to a 1986 FJ1200! So much for progress.
Granted, it's a retro bike, but I just don't understand the appeal unless it's a nostalgia thing. The 2 people that I know who have bought the 900 both used to own the original.
And both of them have said the same thing: "I thought it would be faster."
If you are going to spend that kind of money, add a bit more and get something with balls...
Speaking of balls, David, how are you getting along with your BMW S1kR? Big hairy balls on that one.
Pat,
The XR is an absolute BLAST. I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.
Got new shoes, Pirelli Angel GTs, and headed to Arkansas next week with my son on his FZ1 and a few other friends.
This will be his first trip to the serious twisty roads. Going to have to take it easy on him.
I put in my notice last Monday.
I made it a year and a quarter at a multi-line dealership.
I do wish them the best.
I don't like starting sentences with "I"
:dash2: