https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114632_e10-gasoline-now-standard-but-e15-push-stalled-so-here-comes-e30 (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114632_e10-gasoline-now-standard-but-e15-push-stalled-so-here-comes-e30)
You folks think you are having a hard time with E10 in your fuel....how about E30?
What we want:
(https://images.hgmsites.net/med/non-ethanol-gasoline-pump_100408675_m.jpg)
What we are going to get:
(https://images.hgmsites.net/med/pump-with-multiple-ethanol-gasoline-blends_100442137_m.jpg)
I have previously posted on this topic several times. The powerful corn lobby lining the pockets of professional politicians are still trying to up the ethanol levels. Using corn to produce more ethanol drives up the cost of beef and chicken as the price of corn continues to rise. Brazil uses sugar cane to produce their ethanol which is considerably cheaper and requires much less water and fertilizer. Several years ago the EPA did a secret study in the DFW area. Raising the level to 30% without telling the public. Older cars started having serious problems. Ed Wallace noticed and submitted some to a lab where it was independently tested at 30% and the EPA was exposed. Here is another article by Ed Wallace.
https://www.wired.com/2009/05/another-argument-against-ethanol/ (https://www.wired.com/2009/05/another-argument-against-ethanol/)
Dave
Gawd, I hate that stuff.
I go to the next town over to buy ethanol-free. It's not cheap, at about $3.85 a gallon, but but my things run better, and my gaskets & o-rings won't turn into jelly. Yes, that has happened to me.
(Everything I have is at least twenty-five years old or older. New stuff is designed to be compatible.)
I don't know why you all complain about the fuel prices in USA. In Croatia one gallon is 6.05 USD with much much lower living standard (at least no ethanol in our fuel - yet).
Have you seen the size of our cars & SUVs? :scratch_one-s_head:
You could use them as school buses.
Quote from: airheadPete on January 09, 2018, 11:11:12 AM
Have you seen the size of our cars & SUVs? :scratch_one-s_head:
You could use them as school buses.
Only on TV. :smile:
Gas up here in BC is at 1.25 a liter. That works out to 5.00 bucks a gallon. Most pumps are only E10 with some stations having a choice of up to E85
I don't think we have to worry much. The E15 mandate failed miserably and adding even more ethanol won't be any easier to sell the American public. California on the other hand may see increased ethanol levels due to the environmental policies of Moonbeam Brown and the idiots running the State.
I drive one of those SUV school buses. It can seat 9 people.
Fred
Quote from: aviationfred on January 09, 2018, 12:01:26 PM
...California on the other hand may see increased ethanol levels due to the environmental policies of Moonbeam Brown and the idiots running the State.
Yea, Fred, you were reading my mind... I don't mind them offering ethanol laced fuel to consumers. I do mind them taking away my ability to choose.
Most of the ethanol free gas offered here in Calif is located at FBO's (air fields): https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA (https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA)
....and unfortunately no pure gas offerings in my area. Thank God for VP fuel (used for storage). Expensive @$12 a gallon but sure worth it....
If I have to run E20, I wonder what it will do to my tune?
Quote from: balky1 on January 09, 2018, 12:35:26 AM
I don't know why you all complain about the fuel prices in USA. In Croatia one gallon is 6.05 USD with much much lower living standard (at least no ethanol in our fuel - yet).
That is cheap. In Massachusetts there are no non ethanol pumps and I use VP non ethanol small engine fuel. I buy it in 5 gallon drums and when all is said and done it is still about 13.00 a gallon. Fortunately I don't ride the FJ a lot and it is fantastic fuel.
As Oz seems to blindly follow what ever political madness is going on in the US I see an ethanol future here as well, although the sugar lobby here is probably stronger.
E10 has been around a while & caused probably the same issues here. Perhaps we can be prepared.
A friend of mine is in that business (ethanol) & this afternoon I asked 'Can the ethanol be simply and easily (in my shed) removed?'
The answer is yes, and it is surprisingly simple.
I've yet to do this, as normal petrol and avgas is available to me ( :yahoo:). So the below is info passed on, but from a genuine industry leading expert.
His answer is that water will remove the ethanol. Mix water and petrol, then allow the water/fuel to separate. Decanting them will give you 'pure' fuel in what ever octane (I checked with him that removing the ethanol will not change the octane) you started with.
I've occasionally had to deal with water in petrol. It separates very quickly with petrol floating on water. Water looks like little drops of mercury in the bottom of a jar of petrol.
He also suggested using Kolor Kut post decanting, to check there is no water or ethanol left. Kolor Kut is an American made paste that will change colour if fuel has any of a variety of contaminants, such as ethanol and water. It is available in Australia from www.fuelequipmentspecialists.com.au (http://www.fuelequipmentspecialists.com.au) . I imagine it is readily available in America.
Let us not forget that playing with petrol and making little explosions is a lot of fun. I am, however, writing this from my hospital bed (not an explosive accident) and don't want any FJowners joining me for the duration.
Troyskie
That's excellent info Troy, although ethanol is far more widespread in NSW than it is here, but that could change. It's one of those things govt can impose on us that costs them nothing, is popular with the voters and all the while pretending they care about the environment. Win win for them.
Noel
Thats a good idea. Easily done with one of these 5gal collapsible water containers you can buy anywhere. Just tip it on its side and let the water settle on the bottom then drain out.
Is there a recommended ratio of water/gas to mix to absorb the ethanol? Or would you just go by the same % of ethanol - i.e. if 5gal of E10 gas then add 10% water by volume - which would be 0.5gal of water?
PSA - please don't dump the residual water down the drain or sewer. Put it in a shallow tray and let it evaporate - or use it for weed killer :shok:
Thanks Paul....is that container material safe with gasoline? Some plastics melt in fuel.
I did a quick web search and one of the EPA mobs (US I think) gave a formula of 3.8 tea spoons of water per gallon for e10 before the petrol will reach water saturation, and excess water will sink out.
I believe this is the ratio at which the ethanol will be dissolved by water.
This doesn't seem much.
3785ml to the gallon.
5ml to the teaspoon.
3.8 x 5 = 19ml. 10% of 3785 is 378.5. Can 19ml of water remove 378.5ml of ethanol?
I think this needs some testing :wacko2:.
Here's the link to the EPA document. Interestingly it also mentions the expected engine damage to occur from using ethanol. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf (https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf)
Someone who is more familiar with chemistry should check my maths.
This is also know as "phase separation".
This is occurring naturally just from riding and condensation after parking.
The water evaporates above the hot engine. Then condenses on the top of the tank as the heat disapates, the water returns to the fuel.
This causes the phase separation. I found this when I was presented the only fuel treatment to prevent the phase separation, K100.
Google phase separation, there is some pretty good info about it.
The biggest issue I see about trying to separate the fuel before using, it the octane. The ethanol is an octane booster. So if you bought 92 octane and remove the ethanol, is the base gasoline 70 octane?
That is going to be the hardest question to figure out.
Randy - RPM
I did specifically ask about that.
He said the octane will remain the same when talking e10.
I think you are right about the octane rating dropping. But at the e10 level it won't be much, so starting with higher octane e10s should still give a high octane normal petrol. I'm not sure what you have in the US but here, outside of aviation 98 is the highest readily available.
The more I read the more worried I am about ethanol additive fuel for remote places. What I've just read basically says the petrol/ethanol will separate (yeah phase...) within 100 days! So unless there is some sort of sophisticated 'stirring' going on the e10 etc. bought at the only petrol station in town might leave you calling for help!
In the city who cares unless you are parking up the vehicle for months at a time. As there is not the winter weather here that you guys get we ride all year and the ethanol is probably not such an issue. I can however see real issues in the bush/red dirt where the temp can vary by 40 degree C in a day and a tanker load of petrol not be fully used for months.
Quote from: Troyskie on January 12, 2018, 11:11:53 PM
The more I read the more worried I am about ethanol additive fuel for remote places. What I've just read basically says the petrol/ethanol will separate (yeah phase...) within 100 days! So unless there is some sort of sophisticated 'stirring' going on the e10 etc. bought at the only petrol station in town might leave you calling for help!
With Australian fuel stocks for 19days only, I don't think we'll have to worry about that.
But don't tell anyone who wants to invade us that all they have to do is stop the fuel tankers for 19days and we are stuffed.
Nothing like being in a Third world country.
Ha! Not to worry, we'll just set the drop bears on any invaders and head to the pub and watch it all on telly!
I wish this ethanol crap would go away. Things have changed in North America. We no longer have the fear that we might run out of oil. Ethanol has also proved to be less than efficient for consumers.
Don't get me wrong, it's knowledge we need. Just in case. However, it's not practical and it's still every expensive. Take the subsidies away and that price of fuel would sky rocket.
Then let's take a look at the greenie weenie. Ethanol burns dirtier than normal gasoline. You can't win with this stuff.