Hi folks,
Hope you all having a good break over Christmas.
I am down with bad flu and stomach bug. Just able to get at the laptop now after eight days.
Anyway enough of the misery and on to FJ related matters.
After getting some good advice from Randy and some members (much appreciated) a box of new parts for the engine build arrived from RPM a couple of months ago.
Compared to some engines I have worked on, the FJ is relatively simple but I am seriously lacking experience with the FJ engine.
So with my box of bits I set about the top end rebuild of the engine.
Im linking some photos below ......
Valve train dissassembled and cleaned. Everything kept in sequence.
(https://image.ibb.co/eoHYxw/20171104_163645.jpg)
All valves re-ground
(https://image.ibb.co/jAWtxw/20171112_151252.jpg)
Head and combustion chambers cleaned.
(https://image.ibb.co/e6V8VG/20171112_151258.jpg)
All the important parts cleans and ready.
(https://image.ibb.co/ej3vAG/20171112_151301.jpg)
New valve seals installed.
(https://image.ibb.co/cWNoVG/20171118_174209.jpg)
Looking good :good2:
Good on ya! :good2:
Spend $150 and replace those tired oem valve springs.... Kookaloo on steroids: 10k+rpm and no valve float
(http://rpmracingca.com/prodimages/large/Head%20ValveSpringsHP-1.jpg)
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3AValveSpringsHP (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3AValveSpringsHP)
After getting all the valves springs and new seals back in I installed the new head gasket.
New oil seals on the 2 bolts as well, copper washers also.
Torqued the head down following the Haynes manual.
The reassembly of the camshafts followed.
A new cam chain installed, a split chain with a rivet link.
All shim buckets and shims installed back where the came from.
Getting the timing we found a bit tricky. Eventually managed to get all the dots and marks lined up.
I installed the cam chain tensioner along the way as well and found it difficult as there was so much pressure on the spring it took a few attempts to get it in. IS this normal guys ?.
I left the engine this way for a couple of days and when I went back to it, my intention was to go through the shims and see what changes I needed to make.
I think I might have a problem here.
I checked the clearance on the first two cylinders and I have none or very little. On at least 4 shims, I have no clearance at all.
Anyone any ideas.
Something similar happened to me years ago with a Honda CX500 engine. Turns out I was 180 degrees out with my timing.
Would I have made a similar mistake with this ??.
Any help or advice greatfully received.
I'm doing pretty much the same thing at the moment, damaged a bucket when the valve tool slipped off :doh:
had a real problem getting the damaged bucket and a couple other 'normal' buckets out, pretty much zero clearance in the bore on some
one exhaust bucket was lathered in grease so somebody had been in before and a couple of nasty dings evident also, on the plus the pistons and head are nice and clean so was running ok prior, on the downside 6 studs are rusty as, getting a mate to make some up
sadly insufficient funds for new springs
:)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 28, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
Good on ya! :good2:
Spend $150 and replace those tired oem valve springs.... Kookaloo on steroids: 10k+rpm and no valve float
Pat,
see my second post, the head is back together. All springs and valves were well within spec and the rebuild is not intended to give me high performance.
I think there is a law here banning you from going over 9000 rpm. Instant removal of driving liceince :wacko2: :wacko2:
Quote from: ally on December 28, 2017, 12:05:49 PM
I'm doing pretty much the same thing at the moment, damaged a bucket when the valve tool slipped off :doh:
had a real problem getting the damaged bucket and a couple other 'normal' buckets out, pretty much zero clearance in the bore on some
one exhaust bucket was lathered in grease so somebody had been in before and a couple of nasty dings evident also, on the plus the pistons and head are nice and clean so was running ok prior, on the downside 6 studs are rusty as, getting a mate to make some up
sadly insufficient funds for new springs
:)
I feel your pain ally on the springs. You could drop a small fortune into one of these engines without much effort but I aint going there. I want to get this bike back on the road.
Ally did you have any clearance issues like I described with the shims.
I had no issues thankfully with damaged buckets.
I'm a little ways behind you, it's stripped at present, struggling with enthusiasm to crack on, I must get my @rse in gear though
I need to dress the shim bores, finish cleaning the valves then lap, still waiting on the studs
I've purchased a few toys from randy, I've the fork valves to go on, bar dampers, spin on filter (done), I'm living on a heavily reduced pension so my spending power is poor now, I'm collecting parts to fettle my c90, I've a loom swap to do on my dr750, rear caliper on the mz660 and more, I just have to creep along and pick up spares when I stumble upon them
still the top end rebuild, shim, carb balance, head bearings, forks, caliper rebuilds, front wheel bearings and boots to go yet (I've everything but the tyres)
I started at the back and came forward, I only manage an hour or two before I get too tired to continue so it's slow going!
:)
Quote from: Mypoorfudge on December 28, 2017, 12:01:47 PM
......I left the engine this way for a couple of days and when I went back to it, my intention was to go through the shims and see what changes I needed to make.
I think I might have a problem here.
I checked the clearance on the first two cylinders and I have none or very little. On at least 4 shims, I have no clearance at all.
Anyone any ideas.
Just a thought: if you lapped your valves, the valves now sit lower on the seats, meaning the stem is now longer and the bucket/shim to cam clearances change.
I'll defer to the experts.
You move fast....No worries on the valve springs, looks like you used Viton valve seals which are superior to oem.
I love to see this work! Kudos!
Cutting new seats will affect clearances, having the clearances tighten up is to be expected. Did you deck the head while you were in there? It's usually recommended but I've gotten away without it.
Thank you for the suggestions guys regarding the valve seats.
I should clarify though.
The head was in good shape and the engine is not a high mileage one. I basically re-polished the valve seats.
They were ok, so I gave them a good polish/clean with the two pastes, just to bring that nice even grey colour back.
Do you still think that would have made the difference.
Quote from: Mypoorfudge on December 28, 2017, 02:26:38 PM
Thank you for the suggestions guys regarding the valve seats.
I should clarify though.
The head was in good shape and the engine is not a high mileage one. I basically re-polished the valve seats.
They were ok, so I gave them a good polish/clean with the two pastes, just to bring that nice even grey colour back.
Do you still think that would have made the difference.
Lapping (polishing) the valve seats will definitely cause the valve clearances to tighten up. Depending on how much valve and seat material you removed will govern the size difference to the shims. If there is no clearance, it is difficult to determine the correct shim size until you can get the feeler gauge in to measure the gap. You will have to remove the shim and fit a thinner one so you can get a gap reference.
Regards, Pete.
^^^ +1 on what Jack and Pete said. Set your valves with new shims as needed. Put a couple hundred miles on the new top end then open her back up and recheck your (cold) clearances and re torque (25 ft/lbs) your head nuts and change your oil..
Wow!
Just by polishing the valve seats, it can change that much. I would say that no material was removed at all, just cleaned up.
So it looks as if I may go through all the shims in there, find the narrowest one and hope that it is slim enough to fit in and give me a gap where I now have none?.
I only have the shims that are in the engine already so I will have to see how that works out.
Not so much that you removed the metal on the valve edges or from the valve seats, but you certainly removed a built up layer of carbon.
What kind of clearances did you have before? I'll bet a jelly donut they were tight to begin with.
When you rotate that crank to turn the cams, be sure you have a shim in *all your buckets* (even if it's the wrong size shim) without that, the sharp edges of the buckets will ruin the face surface of the cams.
Quote from: Mypoorfudge on December 28, 2017, 04:16:47 PM
Wow!
Just by polishing the valve seats, it can change that much. I would say that no material was removed at all, just cleaned up.
So it looks as if I may go through all the shims in there, find the narrowest one and hope that it is slim enough to fit in and give me a gap where I now have none?.
I only have the shims that are in the engine already so I will have to see how that works out.
Yes, the gritty lapping compound is a grinding material. So there is material being removed from the valve face and seat face.
So, with the thinnest shim removed, use it in all of the zero clearance valves.
As Pat said, do not rotate the cams into a bucket without a shim in place. In the US, the .25 cent, quarter fits into the bucket. It is a soft material that will not harm the cams and allows you to check other valves when you have no spare shims. Hopefully you have some sort of coin currency that can be used in place of the thinnest shim. Once you get them measured with the thinnest shim, use the shim chart to know what you require.
Once again as Pat said, you need to check them pretty quickly after the build. If you want to ensure you don't end up with a tight valve, you might leave them on the large side of the adjustment range. So, if in your calculations it says you need a 260, you might use a 258 or 255 in that location. That will allow the additional space for the valve face to reset against the valve seat.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 28, 2017, 04:29:09 PM
Not so much that you removed the metal on the valve edges or from the valve seats, but you certainly removed a built up layer of carbon.
What kind of clearances did you have before? I'll bet a jelly donut they were tight to begin with.
When you rotate that crank to turn the cams, be sure you have a shim in *all your buckets* (even if it's the wrong size shim) without that, the sharp edges of the buckets will ruin the face surface of the cams.
Pat, I have no idea what they were prior to stripping. The top end was stripped nearly 6 years ago :shok:
That last tip there Pat is one of those simple little gems of info that I would not have thought of and has probably save me a lot of pain. Thank you. I can probably find one of those euro coins to do the trick for me.
Randy, thanks for that.
Im getting a feel for where things are with this now. I was hoping I hadnt made a silly mistake and it seems i havent. Just lack of experience with these beasts.
At the moment im recovering from the worst flu I have ever had in my life. It is bitter cold out there so the engine is gonna have to wait a bit.
I will be taking the "leave it a bit loose" method on board when I get the energy to go to the shed.
Thankfully I managed to get the engine into the frame just before Christmas so I now have a rolling chassis on the ramp. Makes me feel progress is being made.
I never thought of that "quarter" trick...unfortunately I have accumulated a metric sh*t ton of shims for my 2 FJ's and my CBX (which uses the same size shims).
I am happy to see that I am not alone in Ireland..... :hi:
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on December 31, 2017, 01:08:18 PM
I am happy to see that I am not alone in Ireland..... :hi:
You are def not alone :good2: :)
Where are you ?
Quote from: Mypoorfudge on January 02, 2018, 05:37:31 AM
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on December 31, 2017, 01:08:18 PM
I am happy to see that I am not alone in Ireland..... :hi:
You are def not alone :good2: :)
Where are you ?
Kilkenny City.....
You are about an hour and half away from me.
Kilkenny is a great city.
Hi Guys,
After a miserable christmas where my wife and I were very unwell, added to the cold weather, no work was done on the FJ engine.
Until today.
With the aid of a valve lifter tool I set about removing all the shims to find the narrowest one.
This turned out to be 250.
However when it was re-positioned to one of the tight buckets it was still too tight.
Following good advice from here I used 50 cent coins to take up the slack in the empty buckets.
So now I am off to get two slim shims and hopefully make some progress then.
Hey Mike, I'm glad to hear you and your's is on the mend. Stay warm and don't over exert yourself.
Hi Guys,
An update and some questions.
I managed to get two shims, 230. I put them into cylinder 1 inlet and I did get a gap.
So I started measuring and writing down my results. I had the Haynes manual with me and Im reading that as I go along.
But the doubts started to creep in. Im now not sure if the timing is correct on the bike. I have uploaded some photos below and would appreciate some comments.
The first two pics show the dot punches on the cams visible through the bearing caps.
(http://preview.ibb.co/dZVWGS/20180210_155456_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dBNdwS)
(http://preview.ibb.co/cjKxqn/20180210_155449.jpg) (http://ibb.co/h8OOVn)
With the dots in the correct position, the two photos below show the cam sprockets.
(http://preview.ibb.co/b9vLAn/20180210_155523.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jbSBGS)
(http://preview.ibb.co/hMXp37/20180210_155514.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jegSqn)
The photo below shows the position of the timing disc. Is this correct ?
(http://preview.ibb.co/hJbAAn/20180210_155532.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mXExqn)
If I turn the timing disc to what is supposed to be TDC no. 1 piston. I get whats in the photos below.
(http://preview.ibb.co/d9m5bS/20180210_155741.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mbJwi7)
(http://preview.ibb.co/moZ2O7/20180210_155754.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nMAbi7)
Your cam timing in relation to the crankshaft is way off.
You need to get that corrected before proceeding.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 10, 2018, 11:01:26 AM
Your cam timing in relation to the crankshaft is way off.
You need to get that corrected before proceeding.
Randy - RPM
I knew it !
Based on the photos Randy where have gone wrong.
Edit
Should the timing mark on the disc be at the sender.
Ok so thinking logically about this.
if I remove the tensioner.
Remove the top guide
Loosen the sprockets.
Turn the crank to the timing mark.
Ensure the sprockets are on their marks.
Replace the tensioner
Replace the top guide.
?
Ok so I went back to the shed and made some adjustments.
I cant seem to get it exactly right but I hope I am close enough.
The two pics below. With the timing mark exactly right. The exhaust sprocket is slightly high. The inlet sprocket is slightly low.
(http://preview.ibb.co/jZ0PmS/20180210_204224.jpg) (http://ibb.co/h0g8D7)
(http://preview.ibb.co/c9Bat7/20180210_204155.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gG5PmS)
If I adjust the crank so that the sprocket marks are lined up exactly right. The timing mark looks like this.
(http://preview.ibb.co/gy2WY7/20180210_204547.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mEP0RS)
(http://preview.ibb.co/kPFkt7/20180210_204531.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hwvkt7)
Am I close enough guys. ?
Any experts got a comment on my post above (popcorn)
Quote from: Mypoorfudge on February 10, 2018, 03:07:21 PM
Am I close enough guys. ?
Sorry, I was at work when you posted the changes and then I forgot about it when I got back to the shop on Tuesday.
You are still at least one tooth off, maybe two.
The marks on the cam gears are for general reference, the hole visible through the cam caps are much more important.
You cannot allow the chain to become slack on the crank gear while installing the cams, or it will skip a tooth or two every time.
Once you get it right, the "T" will line up on the pick-up coil and the holes will be centered in the cam caps.
Randy - RPM
H Randy
No apologies necessary I dont expect you to be on call for my queries. I do however appreciate your advice.
I also work for myself and I know the time constraints involved.
Im back at it tomorrow and I will prioritise the the marks in the bearing caps.
I take on board what you said about the crank slipping on the chain as it happened to me a couple of times when I was trying to get it right.
On another note ...
On cylinders 2 3 and 4 the shims have gone from 270 to 260 and 275 to 265 consistently.
Shims are on the way to me.
Back out to the shed today, Im getting very good at this now, or Im getting worse.
I think I was one tooth out as Randy said above.
Photos below.
(http://preview.ibb.co/eCUJqn/20180217_162059.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gcNtO7)
(http://preview.ibb.co/k524Vn/20180217_162150.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gayNGS)
(http://preview.ibb.co/khypwS/20180217_162110.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mVzJqn)
The timing mark is actually closer than it looks. The angle of my phone makes it look a small bit off.
Im happy with that. The marks on the sprockets are good as well.
Just a couple of small queries regarding the cam chain tensioner.
THe haynes manual says that the tensioner should be out 35.5mm prior to putting it in to the engine.
Well my question was "Where is this 35.5mm measured from/to ??"
Somewhere along the way I managed to download a copy of the Clymer manual for the FJ. So I looked up what it said about the tensioner.
According to Clymer, the 35.5mm is measured from the main shoulder to the outer face of the rubber pad. Well as I found out and the more informed will know this does not work. The photo below shows the plunger in as far as it will go !.
(http://preview.ibb.co/kZDYO7/20180217_164500.jpg) (http://ibb.co/n7p7i7)
Also the Clymer manual says that the ratchet faces up when inserted into the engine. The Haynes says it should be facing down .....
Don't take any notice of the 35.5mm out measurement, push it all the way in and let the spring do the rest. The ratchet faces down, all the manuals have mistakes in them so if in doubt ask the question here.
Regards, Pete.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5620.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5620.0)
Thank you guys, thats an interesting read alright.
I suppose thats why the affectionate name for the Haynes Manuals here is "The Haynes book of Lies"
My Haynes manual came with the bike and is full marks and notes of all the mistakes in it.
The tensioner is installed now and all is well.
Good new guys. The FJ started and ran last night.
To say I was excited was an understatement. I was like a little boy after getting my dream present for Christmas ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Got sorted with a new battery
I got the acid in on Saturday and left it charge. Saturday evening I put it in the bike but nothing happened when I hit the start button.
A process of tracing wires started and I suspected the side stand switch but no it was ok.
So Sunday morning after doing some reading I took the front fairing off to expose all the relays and more of the wiring. Didnt take too long, started with the basics, tested the start switch and the cut out switch and cleaned the connector to the loom. It worked, she turned over.
Had no oil in the engine at that stage so filled it up and rigged up a temporary fuel tank. Turned it over again and it tried to fire a couple of times. Then I realised the floor was covered in petrol.
I found the leak at the inlet to the carb. Pissing out it was. Feck !
Got the carbs out then and haThe FJ started and ran last night.
I put a video of me screaming at it on the Whatsapp group. To say I was excited was an understatement. I was like a little boy after getting a Raleigh Chopper for christmas ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Joe sorted me out with a new battery - thank you Joe.
I got the acid in on Saturday and left it charge. Saturday evening I put it in the bike but nothing happened when I hit the start button.
A process of tracing wires started and I suspected the side stand switch but no it was ok.
So Sunday morning after doing some reading I took the front fairing off to expose all the relays and more of the wiring. Didnt take too long, started with the basics, tested the start switch and the cut out switch and cleaned the connector to the loom. It worked, she turned over.
Had no oil in the engine at that stage so filled it up and rigged up a temporary fuel tank. Turned it over again and it tried to fire a couple of times. Then I realised the floor was covered in petrol.
I found the leak at the inlet to the carb. Pissing out it was. Feck !
Got the carbs out then and had to leave it to go to mammys day dinner.
After the dinner I had to pull the left hand carb off and re-do the T piece fuel inlet. It took a good while to get the carbs back in, its a tight fit.
Carbs in, tighten everything and connect fuel. It fired after a few turns.
I was so feckin happy. THis engine hasn't run in nearly seven years and has had a lot of work done to it to get it back. It needs fettling obviously but it is running.
Happy days.d to leave it to go to mammys day dinner.
After the dinner I had to pull the left hand carb off and re-do the T piece fuel inlet. It took a good while to get the carbs back in, its a tight fit.
Carbs in, tighten everything and connect fuel. It fired after a few turns.
I was so feckin happy. THis engine hasn't run in nearly seven years and has had a lot of work done to it to get it back. It needs fettling obviously but it is running.
Happy days.
I just want to add a word of thanks to the above.
This engine would not have run again without the help of Randy and other folks here.
Thank you for your help.
Congrats on seeing it through and getting it running again! Huge motivation to keep up the work and make your FJ the best it can be!
Quote from: fj1289 on March 12, 2018, 10:53:18 PM
Congrats on seeing it through and getting it running again! Huge motivation to keep up the work and make your FJ the best it can be!
Correct, now that it is running it is coming together very quick. It St Patricks weekend here this weekend with a holiday on Monday. If I keep at it I will have it on the road next week.