I discovers I have 1219 pistons.also my #4 cylinder sleeve is chipped
Quote from: Mike m on November 04, 2017, 09:00:20 PMI discovers I have 1219 pistons.also my #4 cylinder sleeve is chipped
Mike,
Did you find the missing chip? I wouldn't want it wandering around loose in there.
Yeah i think this is it
:Facepalm:
That's disappointing Mike....time for a new sleeve (or sleeves)
You know, using your FJ cylinder block you can go as large as 1314cc, if you want to pay for new pistons and sleeves (Wiseco Kit)
You can go up to 1412cc with a sleeved XJR block and Ross 84mm pistions.
Give Randy a call and see what he can do for you.
Sorry to see this Mike
Cheers Pat
Pat is 1219 wisco pistons drop in or do I need to bore?
Does RPM do cylinder boring how much does this cost with labor
Yes, RPM can and will do all the work for you..... Call them tomorrow (Monday)
According to the Wiseco specs, you can use the 78mm (1220cc) Wiseco pistons by boring out your existing 1200 sleeves (FJ1100's need new sleeves)
...so the 1220cc Wiseco pistons in your existing 1215cc sleeves, I think a bore and hone *may be ok* on your existing sleeves.. (**see below)
I'll defer to Randy and others. Some things are best left to professionals.
Scroll down to the FJ specs: http://yamahazone.biz/pistons.html (http://yamahazone.biz/pistons.html)
On larger pistons... you don't bore anything.... you press out the old sleeves and press in new ones sized for the pistons you want to run.
Seeing as though you will need at least 1 new sleeve....this would be a good time for a bump in displacement, if you can afford it.
You think your FJ hauls ass now? You will be in for a pleasant surprise.
The least expensive way for you to get running again would to get just 1 new sleeve, sized for your existing 1215cc pistons, have RPM install it along with fitting new rings on your existing pistons and a fresh hone job on your existing sleeves.
That depends on the wear of your existing 3 other sleeves....maybe they (the other 3 sleeves) are out of tolerance?
In that case, to use your existing pistons you will need 4 new sleeves or... bore your existing oval sleeves and install new pistons.
You don't know until you measure.
Personally, I would just box up the cylinder block and pistons and send them to Randy and say....fix it.
He will discuss your options once he takes measurements.
You will:
1) get back your existing block with properly sized/ finish honed sleeves with new rings on your existing pistons, fitted....ready to go.
2) get back your existing block with new sleeves and new pistons/rings (max.1314cc) fitted..... ready to go
3) get back a new XJR block with new sleeves and pistons fitted (max 1412cc) ready to go (except you will need to do machine work on your existing case for clearance on the big sleeves)
Clear as mud?
Cheers Pat
So yesterday I removed all my pistons discarded the bad one and soaking the what I thought were good ones over night to clean.this morning I dried them and here's what I got from 2 of the 3 good ones.all 4 are now good the pistons are worn to much were the wrist pins seat.was looking forward to having everything machines this week this set me back
Here's #3 piston is gouged to bad.Thiers a significant ridge in their.
Ok Mike, so you need new pistons...that makes your decision easier. :empathy3:
Closer to you, in North Carolina, there is a company called Andrew's Motorsports.
They have some piston kits along with complete cylinder/piston assemblies:
http://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/yamaha/yamaha-xjr1250/new-category/ (http://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/yamaha/yamaha-xjr1250/new-category/)
I would suggest upgrading your 3 shift forks in your '86 transmission while you have things apart.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4KG-18512-00 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4KG-18512-00)
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=3XW-18511-00 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=3XW-18511-00)
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=3XW-18513-00 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=3XW-18513-00)
Let us know what you end up doing...
So I got on eBay and found a good used cylinder for $80 with conversation with the seller I felt secure in the purchase so heater day I received the cylinder it's in great condition just as the seller described.looking closely at my new cylinder my stomach fell it's a 1097 cylinder.I've can't win this process has takin so many crazy twists all going backwards.
A pic of the cylinder :Facepalm:
Mike,
I thought I read an email from you last week you were sending everything to me.
Buddy, wrap everything up, put it in a box and send it to me. I can inspect what you have and give you a direction to get it fixed.
I see the two photos of the wrist pin bore, but do not see what you are referring to as wear.
That 1100 cylinder you received is not going to work with anything you have.
Randy - RPM
Give me a day or so I'm hammers at work I have no time to hardly get anything done.thanks randy
Do today I removed my bad sleeve by beating my cylinder in our shop oven.I used our bearing race drive to remove the sleeve.came out very easy.hopefully I'll get the 3 new pistons I orders then out to rpm
Quote from: Mike m on November 16, 2017, 04:26:18 PM
Do today I removed my bad sleeve by beating my cylinder in our shop oven.I used our bearing race drive to remove the sleeve.came out very easy.hopefully I'll get the 3 new pistons I orders then out to rpm
Wow - Congratulations!
May the install be as smooth!
Making progress on my engine it's a slow process I learn something new everyday.Thiers nothing more rewarding then elbow grease in the bike I've dreamed of as a teenager.I've sent my cylinder to RPM along with pistons and sleeve.hopefully it'll be running by xmas
Few more pics
Mike, you're in good hands...
Thanks pat.sticker price is my only fear.
Yeppers, I hear ya...
Thru the years (33) I have used 4 different shops in SoCal to help me with my '84 FJ.
I have found that RPM has the best price, and does the best work.
They are a pleasure to work with.
A bit of disgretion - looking at your head surface I wandered if motorcycle heads should be resurfaced every time upon removing like in cars?
Quote from: balky1 on November 25, 2017, 01:07:23 AM
A bit of disgretion - looking at your head surface I wandered if motorcycle heads should be resurfaced every time upon removing like in cars?
Balky,
At the very least, the sealing surface of the head would be checked for flatness with a machinist's straight edge and feeler gauges.
I'd mill the head and deck the cylinder. FJ's run hot
The head is going to napa to be milled the cylinder is I rpms/Randy hands
Quote from: Mike m on November 26, 2017, 08:41:12 AM
The head is going to napa to be milled the cylinder is I rpms/Randy hands
Mike, the finish is very important. You need to ask them what the surface finish when complete.
Aluminum using mls gaskets need to be basically a mirror finish or a surface finish of 50 RA (roughness average) or finer.
If they can't give you the finish when complete, you probably should take it to and engine machine shop instead of an auto parts store.
Randy - RPM
I've always wondered, when you resurface the head, do you need to do anything special on the cam timing? e.g. adjustable cam chain sprockets.
....or there is enough adjustment in the cam chain adjuster to compensate?
The machinist At napa wouldn't touch my cylinder/pistons and sleeves due to them being air cooled something about expantion I couldn't make it all out muffled.
Quote from: Mike m on November 26, 2017, 05:25:31 PM
The machinist At napa wouldn't touch my cylinder/pistons and sleeves due to them being air cooled something about expantion I couldn't make it all out muffled.
Is this a dedicated automotive machine shop or a tack on facility to a general workshop? I've never heard such a thing.
Noel
Actually he owns the building and leases part to napa.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 26, 2017, 01:29:00 PM
I've always wondered, when you resurface the head, do you need to do anything special on the cam timing? e.g. adjustable cam chain sprockets.
....or there is enough adjustment in the cam chain adjuster to compensate?
I highly recommend timing the cams with adjustable sprockets after milling and/or decking. It's not a bad idea for a stock engine.
Not really hard to do on an FJ as the buckets are large (plenty of space to get the dial indicator in there). Mounting the degree wheel and being able to spin it without loosening the wheel hold down bolt is not as easy.
Quote from: JMR on November 27, 2017, 05:59:10 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 26, 2017, 01:29:00 PM
I've always wondered, when you resurface the head, do you need to do anything special on the cam timing? e.g. adjustable cam chain sprockets.
....or there is enough adjustment in the cam chain adjuster to compensate?
I highly recommend timing the cams with adjustable sprockets after milling and/or decking. It's not a bad idea for a stock engine.
Not really hard to do on an FJ as the buckets are large (plenty of space to get the dial indicator in there). Mounting the degree wheel and being able to spin it without loosening the wheel hold down bolt is not as easy.
Excuse my ignorance here but isn't that what the tensioner does, take up the slack, and whats wrong with using the timing marks on the cams?
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on November 27, 2017, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: JMR on November 27, 2017, 05:59:10 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 26, 2017, 01:29:00 PM
I've always wondered, when you resurface the head, do you need to do anything special on the cam timing? e.g. adjustable cam chain sprockets.
....or there is enough adjustment in the cam chain adjuster to compensate?
I highly recommend timing the cams with adjustable sprockets after milling and/or decking. It's not a bad idea for a stock engine.
Not really hard to do on an FJ as the buckets are large (plenty of space to get the dial indicator in there). Mounting the degree wheel and being able to spin it without loosening the wheel hold down bolt is not as easy.
Excuse my ignorance here but isn't that what the tensioner does, take up the slack, and whats wrong with using the timing marks on the cams?
Noel
Removing material from the head or cylinder will retard cam timing. If you remove enough material the stock timing marks will not line up correctly though the stock timing marks are at best an estimate. The engine will run with the cams a bit retarded or advanced and in fact that is why adjustable sprockets are good. Different applications want different cam numbers. Land speed cams want retarded (high lobe center #'s for example).
105LC works well on the street with stock cams. The only way to know if you are at 105 is to time the cams. The adjustable cam sprockets give you the final word.
I remember Dale Walker selling his cam timing kit years ago touting the benefits of timing the cams in stock engines.
Quote from: JMR on November 27, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
Removing material from the head or cylinder will retard cam timing. If you remove enough material the stock timing marks will not line up correctly....
Thanks Mike :good2:
Yep, I have heard this before and was wondering what the limit is...the limit of head shave where, when you exceed it, you will absolutely need adjustable cam chain sprockets....e.g. .025" or .010"....005"...etc...
Mike m: Sorry for the thread hijack ....but the info may be of use to you.
Pat
I didn't have any luck with the machine shop at lunch today.looks like my cylinder head is going to rpm also.
I been reading the comments and it occurred to me.the previous owner did the failed 1219 piston install,so I'm wondering did they resurface the head and how much did they remove.what's the number I wanna see and the number I don't wanna see.I'm sweating now
Quote from: Mike m on November 28, 2017, 08:27:25 PM
I been reading the comments and it occurred to me.the previous owner did the failed 1219 piston install,so I'm wondering did they resurface the head and how much did they remove.what's the number I wanna see and the number I don't wanna see.I'm sweating now
Don't worry about the head - it's possible to cut a LOT off it. The limit is when you start getting into the intake valve seats!
Quote from: fj1289 on November 29, 2017, 12:10:46 AM
Quote from: Mike m on November 28, 2017, 08:27:25 PM
I been reading the comments and it occurred to me.the previous owner did the failed 1219 piston install,so I'm wondering did they resurface the head and how much did they remove.what's the number I wanna see and the number I don't wanna see.I'm sweating now
Don't worry about the head - it's possible to cut a LOT off it. The limit is when you start getting into the intake valve seats!
I agree. I took about .025 off mine. I'd imagine you get to .050 off an FJ head you have to start paying attention. I haven't milled an FJ head to the limit but have removed more material than that on other heads.
Quote from: ribbert on November 27, 2017, 08:51:35 AM
Excuse my ignorance here but isn't that what the tensioner does, take up the slack, and whats wrong with using the timing marks on the cams?
Noel
Noel,
Yes, the tensioner is designed to take up the slack of the timing chain on the slack side of the chain. As JMR already said, when the cylinder head & cylinder block are machined they become "thinner". This drops the camshaft bore center line closer to the crankshaft center line. That effectively makes the chain longer and the cams become retarded to the initial setting.
Then there is the issue of cam chain stretch over time. That also retards the camshafts as the chain gets longer the cams fall behind.
Here are some photos I took last year from the old timing chain I removed from Mike's engine compared to a new chain:
Early One Morning (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg163337#msg163337)
So, the addition of adjustable,
Slotted Camshaft Gears (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3ASCG) allows the camshaft timing to be adjusted back to proper specs.
Mike, I don't have number for you to be able to compare. But as Chris already mentioned, you can cut a bunch off before a replacement head is required. In fact we machine brand new cylinder heads before building engines to reduce the combustion chamber size.
We have machined many over the years that actually get into the outer edge of the intake seats and we still use them.
Once everything gets here, we will develop a plan to get you all back together and running properly.
One other thing you might want to send me as well is your carbs. I know you have messed with them a lot but with the overbore they need to be built differently than they are now.
Randy - RPM
Thanks for all the input as I read the comments I'm feeling more confident I can let go and reach out for help as this bike is more then just a fj1200 Its the bike I dreamed of owning as a teenager.I'll trust that I can send my engine parts out and know they'll be takin care of.thanks fellas
Quote from: Mike m on November 29, 2017, 06:13:50 PM
Thanks for all the input as I read the comments I'm feeling more confident I can let go and reach out for help as this bike is more then just a fj1200 Its the bike I dreamed of owning as a teenager.I'll trust that I can send my engine parts out and know they'll be takin care of.thanks fellas
Howdy Mike M!
No doubt you can rest easy - with all the help available from Forum members and the RPM crew, you and your parts will be well taken care of!
Initially some years ago, I did all the mods with the advice of, and the information provided & posted by various Forum members. :good2:
A year ago this month my engine was rebuilt by RPM and coming up on 30K miles, the engine still runs perfect - no oil leaks or consumption... and while I do not abuse the FJ, it is at times pushed hard. Riding with other FJ's at a Rally (take your choice) is not to be taken lightly...! :yahoo:
Good luck & ride safe,
Mike R
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 29, 2017, 11:27:46 AM
Quote from: ribbert on November 27, 2017, 08:51:35 AM
Excuse my ignorance here but isn't that what the tensioner does, take up the slack, and whats wrong with using the timing marks on the cams?
Noel
Noel,
Yes, the tensioner is designed..................
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy, I know what happens, I was just trying to encourage a bit of discussion. I have adjustable cam sprockets (RPM of course) on my engines for both of the reasons mentioned to return the timing to spec. My current engine has 250,000km on it and is untouched except for the adjustable sprockets, without them the timing is way off. All it's vitals are otherwise perfect, I attribute this entirely to the oil I use. :biggrin:
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on November 30, 2017, 03:47:10 AM
I attribute this entirely to the oil I use. :biggrin:
Noel
Mike m - DO NOT FALL for this... it is a PANDORA'S BOX, and it can only end in misery. :Facepalm:
Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 30, 2017, 08:55:39 AM
Quote from: ribbert on November 30, 2017, 03:47:10 AM
I attribute this entirely to the oil I use. :biggrin:
Noel
Mike m - DO NOT FALL for this... it is a PANDORA'S BOX, and it can only end in misery. :Facepalm:
Uh Oh... and just when things were starting to settle down...!!!
Midget
Quote from: ribbert on November 30, 2017, 03:47:10 AM
Thanks Randy, I know what happens, I was just trying to encourage a bit of discussion. I have adjustable cam sprockets (RPM of course) on my engines for both of the reasons mentioned to return the timing to spec. My current engine has 250,000km on it and is untouched except for the adjustable sprockets, without them the timing is way off. All it's vitals are otherwise perfect, I attribute this entirely to the oil I use. :biggrin:
Noel
Noel,
Did you actually degree the cams or simply set cams with the timing marks in the windows and use the slotted sprockets to remove any slack? How far off do you estimate the timing had degraded?
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on November 30, 2017, 03:48:29 PM
Quote from: ribbert on November 30, 2017, 03:47:10 AM
Thanks Randy, I know what happens, I was just trying to encourage a bit of discussion. I have adjustable cam sprockets (RPM of course) on my engines for both of the reasons mentioned to return the timing to spec. My current engine has 250,000km on it and is untouched except for the adjustable sprockets, without them the timing is way off. All it's vitals are otherwise perfect, I attribute this entirely to the oil I use. :biggrin:
Noel
Noel,
Did you actually degree the cams or simply set cams with the timing marks in the windows and use the slotted sprockets to remove any slack? How far off do you estimate the timing had degraded?
David, I used the timing marks in the windows. IMO that is accurate enough, especially for road use. The timing was out about half a tooth, that was 50k ago and I've not checked since.
Noel
Quote from: Mike Ramos on November 30, 2017, 10:40:18 AM
Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 30, 2017, 08:55:39 AM
Quote from: ribbert on November 30, 2017, 03:47:10 AM
I attribute this entirely to the oil I use. :biggrin:
Noel
Mike m - DO NOT FALL for this... it is a PANDORA'S BOX, and it can only end in misery. :Facepalm:
Uh Oh... and just when things were starting to settle down...!!!
Midget
Fear not gentlemen, just in case the humour in that claim was lost in translation, I have neither favourite brand or grade and couldn't even tell you what's in there at the moment.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on November 30, 2017, 06:43:31 PM
...... and couldn't even tell you what's in there at the moment.
Short term memory is the second thing to go....I can't seem to recall the first...
I'm still looking for that darn 12 mm scoket, I mean come on, I just had it... :ireful:
My pickup coils are modified so the ignition can be advanced.I ran along while without knowing that the ignition was advanced that much.Idk how to tell how much advanced it can be with the mod the previous owner dione
Most FJ ignition advance comes from modified rotors...not so much from the pick up coils or coil plate.
I'm not aware of modifying the pick up coils.
The mounting holes on the pickup plate are oblonged.loosening the 2 mounting screws and turning the plate clockwise I'm assuming advanced the timing.I'll send a pics of what was done to my pickup plate.
Well, we finally got all of Mike's parts here at the shop to sort out the best way to move forward.
He does have a 1219 Wiseco kit installed. Unfortunately two of the four piston were damaged. Then there was the damaged sleeve, I really have no explanation for how that happened.
So, we have decided the best course of action.
Head: Complete valve job, new RPM valve stem seals, new valve springs and head surface.
The exhaust seats are pitted pretty bad and several bad valves stem seals allowed oil to flow onto the valve. You can see by the carbon build up on the intake & exhaust valves.
Cylinder: Replace all four sleeves as the are too large for the 1219 pistons. Size the new sleeves back to the pistons. File fit the piston rings and surface the gasket surface.
Carbs: Rebuild with proper jetting for larger bore. Plus, repair all of the issue located in the carbs.
I found two slides with a bunch of holes at the mounting flange surface. There was a crack in one of the float bowls and the fuel line will be replace with the proper set-up. Also, all four choke plungers are just about to wear through.
I have attached a few photos.
Once Mike gets everything back, he will be able to assemble and ride without any further ongoing issues.
Randy - RPM
:flag_of_truce: So glad I had RPM to fall back on.I decided all the fjs experience they have is worth throwing in the towel and letting the professionals do what professionals do.HAVE AT HER FELLAS.
Yes Mike, we are very fortunate :good2:
I'll third that chorus of fortunate.
Cylinder and head are at the machine shop. (popcorn)
Looks like a fresh mani/pedi, huh Randy? Not a hint of grease under those nails.
So today I got a email from RPM with photos attached the smile on my face was priceless.
Rpm has a few things left to do and ill be putting my bike together soon
Cylinder looks great!!
How come the space between cylinders 1-2 is smaller than between 3-4?
Quote from: balky1 on February 14, 2018, 04:09:47 AM
How come the space between cylinders 1-2 is smaller than between 3-4?
It is an optical illusion from the light refraction.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 14, 2018, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: balky1 on February 14, 2018, 04:09:47 AM
How come the space between cylinders 1-2 is smaller than between 3-4?
It is an optical illusion from the light refraction.
Randy - RPM
Indeed, now I see it. :Facepalm:
I am waiting for the new glasses to arrive.... :lol:
I'd like to take a second to say thank you to randy and Robert at RPM.Those guys are are great people.they really helped with this whole engine rebuild procee.again thanks so much RPM
Recieved my completed engine today very pleased so far.however I didn't get a RPM sticker or t-shirt .
Thank rpm
Quote from: Mike m on March 15, 2018, 07:32:21 PM
Recieved my completed engine today very pleased so far.however I didn't get a RPM sticker or t-shirt .
Shane, sorry we overlooked the decals and or shirt. I'm not at the shop now, but I do know I have been out of XL shirts for quite sometime.
The decals, we just plain forgot. :Facepalm:
As you know, we had a plate full of problems with the computer crash over the weekend. The recovery of the data was the top priority so we could get the invoice back and be able to create the shipping labels.
Once I get the new shirts later this year, I'll make sure I send you one.
Randy - RPM
That was dry humor.I how it wasn't takin in a bad way.rpm you guys over came and came threw for me .
So these are the pistons randy supplied Thier totally different are these ok to use as I've never mixed pistons
Changing pickup screen and pan gasket.while I'm here gonna paint a few things that need attention.
Quote from: Mike m on March 18, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
So these are the pistons randy supplied Thier totally different are these ok to use as I've never mixed pistons
If Randy supplied them, I'd run them! Seriously, every time I talk with Randy about the engine for the race bike build, I learn something new. Would you think if you are going to run (very) high horsepower you would run LOWER torque on the cylinder head studs? Every other engine build you hear about says to run heavy duty studs and increase the torque. Do that on an FJ and you will pull the studs out of the cases. Randy knows his shit and isn't going to do anything on anyone's build to compromise his business nor his reputation.
I don't know anything about the specs or plans for your engine, but you are in great hands.
Quote from: fj1289 on March 18, 2018, 08:14:32 PM
Quote from: Mike m on March 18, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
So these are the pistons randy supplied Thier totally different are these ok to use as I've never mixed pistons
If Randy supplied them, I'd run them! ........ Randy knows his shit and isn't going to do anything on anyone's build to compromise his business nor his reputation.
Are you saying you would fit pistons so dissimilar in appearance and shape without question, just because you trust the supplier? Loyalty, trust, blind faith or being your buddy doesn't come into it, it's just common sense. I have seen first hand examples of this more times than I care to remember.
I don't care if God himself supplied parts, I would still check them, the onus is on the assembler to make sure they are correct before fitting and the difference in those pistons is more than enough to raise a red flag until an explanation is forthcoming, it is after all unusual.
What if he fitted them and they
were wrong, everyone would look at the photo and say what an idiot, blind Freddie can see they're not the same.
Noel
Just to be perfectly clear, I have offered no opinion on the pistons other than acknowledging they are different in the photo and I have not been critical of Randy. I have only emphasised the wisdom in checking parts yourself before using them and presented a hypothetical scenario to make the point.
I'm in need of a oil cooler as rpm has a quality one.so during my purchase ill get reassurance I'm sure its a race or builders secret.its odd to me tho
Quote from: Mike m on March 18, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
So these are the pistons randy supplied Thier totally different are these ok to use as I've never mixed pistons
Yes, the difference in the bottom of the pistons is just design changes from Wiseco over the years. They are opposing cylinders, is that is why the piston are matched up the way they are.
The difference in the dome finish was due to the machining of your old pistons. The domes were machined down to the same height as the replacement pistons to ensure the same compression ration in all cylinders. After the machining was completed they were de-burred/buffed.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: ribbert on March 19, 2018, 06:07:12 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on March 18, 2018, 08:14:32 PM
Quote from: Mike m on March 18, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
So these are the pistons randy supplied Thier totally different are these ok to use as I've never mixed pistons
If Randy supplied them, I'd run them! ........ Randy knows his shit and isn't going to do anything on anyone's build to compromise his business nor his reputation.
Are you saying you would fit pistons so dissimilar in appearance and shape without question, just because you trust the supplier? Loyalty, trust, blind faith or being your buddy doesn't come into it, it's just common sense. I have seen first hand examples of this more times than I care to remember.
I don't care if God himself supplied parts, I would still check them, the onus is on the assembler to make sure they are correct before fitting and the difference in those pistons is more than enough to raise a red flag until an explanation is forthcoming, it is after all unusual.
What if he fitted them and they were wrong, everyone would look at the photo and say what an idiot, blind Freddie can see they're not the same.
Noel
Just to be perfectly clear, I have offered no opinion on the pistons other than acknowledging they are different in the photo and I have not been critical of Randy. I have only emphasised the wisdom in checking parts yourself before using them and presented a hypothetical scenario to make the point.
I agree it's on the assembler to ensure everything is correct. If there is a question, I always think the right thing to do is ask the source directly vice taking it online.
When it comes to checking the work, what and how do you check? What you can? What you have the tools to do? What you have the know how and experience with the tools to do? I'm sure I could take the same micrometer as Randy and get different measurements because my " touch" is different. Experience and expertise counts! (Besides the fact I don't even own a mic — how many here do? And how many can use it to measure with repeatability?)
I buy used stuff or discounted stuff or stuff for a different purpose all the time. The onus is completely on me when I do that.
When I pay someone for their expertise and experience - whether engine building or house repairs or aircraft modifications, part of that payment is the expert accepting responsibility for a job properly done.
When I have a question about a plane I'm getting ready to test, I don't go around asking the other pilots or project managers. I go straight to the mechanic or engineer - the person with the knowledge, the details on the project, and the expertise and experience. My trust in that person is essential, and the relationship I develop with them is extremely beneficial to getting the job done well.
None of us reading the post about the different appearances of the pistons have any knowledge on the job that was hired out. It appears the job was to replace a partial set of pistons vice providing a full set of pistons. It appears the original piston is no longer available. The replacement piston from the same manufacturer seems to be a slightly different design. Quite a bit of expertise and experience went into masking those replacement pistons a good match for this engine within the given constraints. Again, all things us readers on the internet were not aware of — exactly why this question should have gone straight to the source.
I appreciate Mike asking the question on this forum and I appreciate Randy's response.
Sure, the question could have been asked privately via e-mail, but then I would have not gained the benefit of Randy's knowledge.
It's all good :i_am_so_happy:
I'm very proud to do business with randy as he's gone far and above my expectations.thank you and this forum for its guidance
Somebody would deliberately build a 4-cylinder engine with two different types of pistons?
Ya learn something new every day.
Just a question;
Pistons 2 & 3 look to have a hole drilled in the wrist pin land. Is that for splash oiling of the pin?
Is it any concern that 1 & 4 do not have that hole?
Quote from: Bill_Rockoff on March 19, 2018, 03:04:42 PM
Somebody would deliberately build a 4-cylinder engine with two different types of pistons?
Ya learn something new every day.
I'll bet those four pistons are closer in weight than the production tolerances on the stockers.
As far as building with different pistons — not the first choice I'm sure, but — depends on your goals and needs. All out race engine - maybe - especially if it means getting a damaged engine back together for the next event/race/heat/round! In order to get an engine back on the street within a budget? Yep! Bet it'll go 100,000+ miles with no issues.
Just slap any old set off random pistons together without regard to compression height, matching weights, etc - No! Because then you are just relying on luck (but the funny part is, an FJ would probably run good and long even that way lol)
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 19, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
Just a question;
Pistons 2 & 3 look to have a hole drilled in the wrist pin land. Is that for splash oiling of the pin?
Is it any concern that 1 & 4 do not have that hole?
The holes on the wrist pin lands are only necessary to relieve potential pumping losses in the cam chain tunnel that cylinders two and three are adjacent to. The holes are not necessary on pistons for cylinders one and four, due to their respective distances from the cam chain's tunnel.
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on March 19, 2018, 05:05:04 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 19, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
Just a question;
Pistons 2 & 3 look to have a hole drilled in the wrist pin land. Is that for splash oiling of the pin?
Is it any concern that 1 & 4 do not have that hole?
The holes on the wrist pin lands are only necessary to relieve potential pumping losses in the cam chain tunnel that cylinders two and three are adjacent to. The holes are not necessary on pistons for cylinders one and four, due to their respective distances from the cam chain's tunnel.
Marty, I don't understand, can you help me?
How do these holes thru to the piston pins, relieve pressures?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 19, 2018, 05:26:58 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on March 19, 2018, 05:05:04 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 19, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
Just a question;
Pistons 2 & 3 look to have a hole drilled in the wrist pin land. Is that for splash oiling of the pin?
Is it any concern that 1 & 4 do not have that hole?
The holes on the wrist pin lands are only necessary to relieve potential pumping losses in the cam chain tunnel that cylinders two and three are adjacent to. The holes are not necessary on pistons for cylinders one and four, due to their respective distances from the cam chain's tunnel.
Marty, I don't understand, can you help me?
How do these holes thru to the piston pins, relieve pressures?
Sounds like he is talking about the crank case webs
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 19, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
Just a question;
Pistons 2 & 3 look to have a hole drilled in the wrist pin land. Is that for splash oiling of the pin?
Is it any concern that 1 & 4 do not have that hole?
Once again, a upgrade in design from Wiseco from the earlier version.
That is actually a drain hole for the oil to the wrist pin. The oil control ring land has a diagonal hole drilled in it to supply oil to the wrist pin. The early version just leaked out from either side of the boss.
The new version uses the drain hole.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 19, 2018, 05:26:58 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on March 19, 2018, 05:05:04 PM
The holes on the wrist pin lands are only necessary to relieve potential pumping losses in the cam chain tunnel that cylinders two and three are adjacent to. The holes are not necessary on pistons for cylinders one and four, due to their respective distances from the cam chain's tunnel.
Marty, I don't understand, can you help me?
How do these holes thru to the piston pins, relieve pressures?
Yea, they're there for oil drainage.
Sounded pretty authoritative though didn't it? :rofl2:
Thanks Randy, that makes perfect sense.
Marty,
Nice try but everyone knows that the cam chain tunnel pumping losses are relieved by the auto adjusting cam chain plunger and the oil filter bypass valve. :-)
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 19, 2018, 08:16:52 PM
Marty,
Nice try but everyone knows that the cam chain tunnel pumping losses are relieved by the auto adjusting cam chain plunger and the oil filter bypass valve. :-)
Must've missed that in the FSM. Probably in the back somewhere.
Pumping Pressures? Naaaa, not for me, I'm running an electric vacuum pump like the pro stock guys run.
Something I really think Chris should look into....
As I was clean I g my oil pan after work last night I came across jb weld inside my oil pan as the previous owner repaired a crack in the pan.if randy hadn't recommend to me to change the pickup screen i would never have found that.
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 19, 2018, 11:50:57 AM
They are opposing cylinders, is that is why the piston are matched up the way they are.
Randy - RPM
If the pistons are physically the same, why does that matter?
Noel
Quote from: fj1289 on March 19, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: ribbert on March 19, 2018, 06:07:12 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on March 18, 2018, 08:14:32 PM
Quote from: Mike m on March 18, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
So these are the pistons randy supplied Thier totally different are these ok to use as I've never mixed pistons
If Randy supplied them, I'd run them! ........ Randy knows his shit and isn't going to do anything on anyone's build to compromise his business nor his reputation.
Are you saying you would fit pistons so dissimilar in appearance and shape without question, just because you trust the supplier? Loyalty, trust, blind faith or being your buddy doesn't come into it, it's just common sense. I have seen first hand examples of this more times than I care to remember.
I don't care if God himself supplied parts, I would still check them, the onus is on the assembler to make sure they are correct before fitting and the difference in those pistons is more than enough to raise a red flag until an explanation is forthcoming, it is after all unusual.
What if he fitted them and they were wrong, everyone would look at the photo and say what an idiot, blind Freddie can see they're not the same.
Noel
Just to be perfectly clear, I have offered no opinion on the pistons other than acknowledging they are different in the photo and I have not been critical of Randy. I have only emphasised the wisdom in checking parts yourself before using them and presented a hypothetical scenario to make the point.
When it comes to checking the work, what and how do you check? What you can? What you have the tools to do? What you have the know how and experience with the tools to do? I'm sure I could take the same micrometer as Randy and get different measurements because my " touch" is different. Experience and expertise counts! (Besides the fact I don't even own a mic — how many here do? And how many can use it to measure with repeatability?)
When it comes to swapping pistons I'd start with weight and move to crown displacement/shape. As for mics.....I'd suggest digital read out mics....they are easier to use if you want to get into precision tool measurements.
I find that owning a micrometer while not a required tool for working on a FJ is very handy. The digital ones are very simple to use. You don't have to be a machinist. Even this old man has used his on the FJ. You don't have to buy a mitutoyo just a cheap harbor freight one works just fine. When I did my clutch mod I measured my clutch plates to make sure they were still in spec. I periodically measure my brake discs. It would be an absolute necessity for an engine rebuild.
Dave
If you take in account the cost of precision tools as mentioned it's cheaper to higher out the work as I did.
A full day of riding after the rebuild almost a month ago
Sorry this forum wont allow me to up loada video.
Quote from: Mike m on April 21, 2018, 04:17:25 PM
Sorry this forum wont allow me to up loada video.
Upload your video to YouTube, then copy and paste the video link to your post.
Fred