This arrived from across the pond in 5 days, for a lot less money than I expected -
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVrDsGxANksL.jpg)
Quality appears great - even came with all gaskets, clamps and "goodies".
I'm going to try and make time to install and review this weekend.
I have been eye balling one of those for awhile. It should reduce some weight from the OEM collector and be a bit less restrictive.
Fred
How much? Let us know what you think about fit and also If it sounds any different. I still have the stock collector on the 89.
Thanks for posting
Dan
Quote from: aviationfred on October 19, 2017, 07:48:09 PM
I have been eye balling one of those for awhile. It should reduce some weight from the OEM collector and be a bit less restrictive.
Fred
What is the weight difference and is that made of stainless?
Quote from: aviationfred on October 19, 2017, 07:48:09 PM... and be a bit less restrictive.
Fred
Actually, I believe it will be more restrictive than the collector box. I'm typing from my phone, so I'll explain later.
Randy - RPM
[/quote]
So, the stock collector box is exactly what it is named, a box. The box does have baffles in it, but nothing is inside to restrict the exhaust flow. I think they are there more to prevent the box from expanding in the event of a backfire. All of the header tubes dump into the box and create an equal pressure within. That equal pressure is then is pushed out of both side simultaneously to the mufflers.
With this collector, each side is forced down a specific tube directly to the muffler. Now, the crossover pipe can help equalize the pressures from side to side. But as mentioned by Bezmozek and looking a the photos from this morning, the cross over tube has a smaller hole than the ID of the tube itself. So, now there is a flange on the opposite side where the exhaust is restricted to travel from side to side freely.
This cross over tube is acting more as an expansion joint that a cross over tube.
The higher pressurized exhaust flow is then forced directly to the fully baffled stock muffler which does not flow very well. The sound change is from the exhaust being forced through the mufflers at higher pressures than with the collector box.
Randy - RPM
Some say you need their headers for this to work others say they won't fit but they do look nice.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17202.msg173456#msg173456 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17202.msg173456#msg173456)
Quote from: racerrad8 on October 19, 2017, 09:25:02 PM
One question I do have, is that a cross over tube, like the old H pipe used on cars with headers, or is it just a tube there for the mounting tab?
Hopefully you can see an opening where the tube is welded on.
Randy - RPM
There is hole drilled, approx. half diameter of connecting tube on both sides, so it works as H-pipe
Quote from: giantkiller on October 19, 2017, 08:40:12 PM
How much? Let us know what you think about fit and also If it sounds any different. I still have the stock collector on the 89.
Thanks for posting
Dan
I bought directly from them - $242.69 delivered.
Less than the eBay price, by about the amount of the eBay fee's, imagine that.
Additional pic's
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVz5EFxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVzyGGxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVzyfhxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVzd5hxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVzdsnxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVzdeqxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2uVzF5qxANksL.jpg)
2lb 5.5oz on my scale
Those I've talked with said the sound does change, hopefully that means improves, although I like it as it is.
And I've not heard of any fitment issues, we'll find out this weekend.
Regarding flow, I don't know. Based on how it looks, it sure looks like it is going to flow better than the stock set-up.
If Randy offered one of these made to his specs, I would of bought it from him - American made (hopefully), it should be less expensive (lower shipping, for sure) and of equal quality.
I could not justify $900+ for a full system at this time - especially when it has no performance claims.
Maybe someday someone will post some apples to apples dyno comparisons of difference systems.
Quote from: FJ1200W on October 20, 2017, 06:36:44 AM
2lb 5.5oz on my scale
Those I've talked with said the sound does change, hopefully that means improves, although I like it as it is.
Regarding flow, I don't know. Based on how it looks, it sure looks like it is going to flow better than the stock set-up.
Maybe someday someone will post some apples to apples dyno comparisons of difference systems.
I don't think that I've really ever seen where an aftermarket exhaust nets more bottem end oomph, or that much of an increase in mid-range gains. Seems like biggest (if you want to call it that sometimes) gains are on the top end. Usually out of the normal, everyday range of riding that most motorcyclists do.
You do most of the time see decent weight loss with an aftermarket system, especially with today's bikes, and of course, the "cool" factor of having an aftermarket system on your bike. Some also come with an increase in sound level, and change of sound itself, which kind of play themselves out with the new owner. They may like it from the git-go, or tire of it after a while. Some even return to OEM.
I can sympathize with you on the cost versus gains too.
Yeah for that kind of money I would put it towards buying one of Randy's systems. I just have supertrap slippons on the 89. (I really like the way the duals sound) And thought If it were cheap enough I would get one.
Quote from: FJ1200W on October 20, 2017, 06:36:44 AM
I could not justify $900+ for a full system at this time - especially when it has no performance claims.
Maybe someday someone will post some apples to apples dyno comparisons of difference systems.
Sorry, the dyno was on the planned list of purchases this year, but a different investment came up that I had to take...I bought the building that I had been leasing prior. It was a big step and now I am the landlord with tenants...
So, maybe next year the dyno will be on the purchase list.
But, can we agree there is a horsepower gain just by the fact the RPM exhaust system weighs more than 20 lbs less than the stock system. Unfortunately I will never be able to quantify that horsepower increase since the dyno is a static device.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on October 19, 2017, 09:25:02 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on October 19, 2017, 07:48:09 PM... and be a bit less restrictive.
Fred
Actually, I believe it will be more restrictive than the collector box. I'm typing from my phone, so I'll explain later.
Randy - RPM
So, the stock collector box is exactly what it is named, a box. The box does have baffles in it, but nothing is inside to restrict the exhaust flow. I think they are there more to prevent the box from expanding in the event of a backfire. All of the header tubes dump into the box and create an equal pressure within. That equal pressure is then is pushed out of both sides simultaneously to the mufflers.
With this collector, each side is forced down a specific tube directly to the muffler. Now, the crossover pipe can help equalize the pressures from side to side. But as mentioned by Bezmozek and looking at the photos from this morning, the cross over tube has a smaller hole than the ID of the tube itself. So, now there is a flange on the opposite side where the exhaust is restricted to travel from side to side freely.
This cross over tube is acting more as an expansion joint that a cross over tube.
The higher pressurized exhaust flow is then forced directly to the fully baffled stock muffler which does not flow very well. The sound change is from the exhaust being forced through the mufflers at higher pressures than with the collector box.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on October 20, 2017, 11:12:25 AM
Quote from: FJ1200W on October 20, 2017, 06:36:44 AM
I could not justify $900+ for a full system at this time - especially when it has no performance claims.
Maybe someday someone will post some apples to apples dyno comparisons of difference systems.
Sorry, the dyno was on the planned list of purchases this year, but a different investment came up that I had to take...I bought the building that I had been leasing prior. It was a big step and now I am the landlord with tenants...
So, maybe next year the dyno will be on the purchase list.
But, can we agree there is a horsepower gain just by the fact the RPM exhaust system weighs more than 20 lbs less than the stock system. Unfortunately I will never be able to quantify that horsepower increase since the dyno is a static device.
Randy - RPM
Sounds like you have again made some smart investments.
I'm not going to agree that just a weight savings does anything to horsepower output, but I don't think that is what you meant.
I'm debating on sending you a motor that I need some work done on (install starter chain and related plus over inspection) or doing it myself. Turn keying it with you would be the easiest way, I'm checking on shipping costs.
Someday I'll order one of your systems. And you might consider developing your own mid-system, I would of gladly paid you nearly the same for something similar.
Quote from: giantkiller on October 20, 2017, 09:06:33 AM
Yeah for that kind of money I would put it towards buying one of Randy's systems. I just have supertrap slippons on the 89. (I really like the way the duals sound) And thought If it were cheap enough I would get one.
It's easy for me to piss away $300.00 -
Not so much $900.00 -
Especially when the motorcycles only worth $2500 on a good day - with or without it.
I hear you though, thanks for the input
I'm running the old school Kerker K-Series slip on canisters - I'll do my best to do a before and after sound recording.
I am waiting to see how things progress. I have Yoshi turn down tip slip-on's that I think would work great with the Black Widow collector.
Fred
Quote from: aviationfred on October 20, 2017, 08:56:06 PM
I am waiting to see how things progress. I have Yoshi turn down tip slip-on's that I think would work great with the Black Widow collector.
Fred
Yoshi - my favorite
If you ever want to trade for a set of Kerkers, I know a guy...... ;)
Well, for those of you betting that I would not "get 'er done" you're right -
I thought I could remove the collector without having to remove the exhaust pipes, but alas, not happening.
So, I need exhaust gaskets, and I've placed my order with Randy, hopefully they're expedited and arrive promptly.
There are totes and totes of FJ parts that I dug through, hoping to find those gaskets, but nope, not happening.
I did spray the exhaust flange nuts with penetrating oil, hopefully they all come out without drama, there is a first time for everything :i_am_so_happy:
If not, I'll deal with it.
I did fire the bike up with the Kerker slip on's removed and holy cow is it loud - that collector obviously does not have a lot of restriction or at a minimum, much sound deadening.
It's a rainy weekend so no worries and no hurries.
UPDATE: The Black Window system scavenges!
Blow air into any of the inlets, the other inlet creates a vacuum and sucks air through - properly scavenging!
I'll do the same test on the stock connector as soon as possible.
:biggrin:
Thanks RPM - Gaskets arrived, hope to be able to make time to finish the install sooner rather than later.....
Installed the item today, went on pretty easy except it reminded me the Kerker Slip-On's were not properly aligned the first time, I bought the bike with them on there, and that annoys me.
Identical swap, need to pay attention to clamp placement and positioning before installing the lower cowl, no big deal at all.
The stock item is designed well, I did the blowing air test, it scavenges quite well.
The Black Widow system is louder, which I do not mind at all.
I'm working on a video clip, post it soon.
Performance -
Well, the first ride, it spun the back tire right off the rim.
Replaced the tire, screw them to the rim, tried again.
The bike roasted the rear tire off through the first 4 gears and by the time I slammed 5th is was still roasting the tire and pulling one heck of a power wheelie.
Not, none of that is true.
The bike ran fine, no issues. Does not seem slower, does not seem quicker, honestly I'll need more seat time and/or a trip to a strip.
I'm happy, more when available.
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2ugSyLgxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2ugSNtdxANksL.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2ugSNrdxANksL.jpg)
https://youtu.be/M8tJGSjXcoc
Sounds a bit more throatier in a good way :good2:
Black widow headers and collector
[right side up now... FJM]
Looks good. Sounds good. Must feel good...
So you had no problems in fitting it like a fellow member Bezmozek?
Quote from: balky1 on November 05, 2017, 02:11:36 AM
So you had no problems in fitting it like a fellow member Bezmozek?
It's pretty much an exact replacement in terms of fitment.
I was glad he mentioned the clamp position - saved me some time. I test fitted the lower cowl to make sure the outer pipe clamps were positioned properly.
The header nuts, I sprayed them with penetrating oil and let it soak for days.
I removed the mufflers, then the head pipes/stock collector as one unit.
Next I moved the head pipes, one at a time, to the Black Widow collector.
That was lifted into place, the collector bolted on, then the head pipes to the head and then the clamps to the collector. Finally, the mufflers reinstalled.
Overall, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being easy and 10 being knuckle busting hard, I'd rate this a 2.
Thank You Steve! :good2:
Nice looking bike. Like the paint. Whats going with air scoops? You did something smart there. No annoying protectors to fall off.
Great post!
Quote from: Mike 86 in San Dimas on November 06, 2017, 10:29:32 PM
Nice looking bike. Like the paint. Whats going with air scoops? You did something smart there. No annoying protectors to fall off.
I just noticed that on Mike's bike - does look nice!
I just read where some others had problems with the Black Widow mid-section, I'm trying to figure out why.
On mine, I installed the headpipes into the midpipe off the bike, raised the assembly into place, lightly installed the hardware.
Then I installed the mufflers, aftermarket Kerkers, again, not tight.
After everything was in place, then I tightened the headpipes to the head 1st, headpipes to center 2nd, the midsection to the frame next. Then position the mufflers and tighten them.
Maybe there are variances between models, I sure don't know.
All I do know is mines on and I'm diggin' it.
Plus they sent me a free hat a couple weeks ago :yahoo:
Quote from: FJ1200W on January 07, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
..I'm trying to figure out why...
Not all angles were correct, to mount silencers, force was needed to fit those back. Mine were facing more outwards to sides but gasket can handle that.
Cyl. no2 I was unable to seal as downpipe was approx 10deg. wrong.
Was OK for a while, but after few heat/cool down cycles, air leaks occurred.
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170619_105015.jpg)
If you want to tighten more, flanges will bent. Threads on studs are not long enough, spacers/different studs needed
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170714_172357.jpg)
Belly pan will not fit as their headers are more forth
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170718_092847.jpg)
It will not fit with FJ1100 headers as those are slightly different(shorter) than 1200 although on their website stated as FJ1100 bolt on replacement.
see cyl 3 header still fully inserted in collector and OEM one too short to fit. You can not bent it upwards because of oil pan.
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170801_085419.jpg)
Double wall downpipes were used only on ´84 &´85 FJ1100.
But I think you don't have to worry if you want to use blackwidows on 1200 as 1200 headers are longer compared to 1100,
but haven't experienced as now i run 1TX downpipes and Delkevic collector with no issues :yahoo:
All story here: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16968.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16968.0)
Quote from: Bezmozek on January 07, 2018, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: FJ1200W on January 07, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
..I'm trying to figure out why...
Not all angles were correct, to mount silencers, force was needed to fit those back. Mine were facing more outwards to sides but gasket can handle that.
Cyl. no2 I was unable to seal as downpipe was approx 10deg. wrong.
Was OK for a while, but after few heat/cool down cycles, air leaks occurred.
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170619_105015.jpg)
If you want to tighten more, flanges will bent. Threads on studs are not long enough, spacers/different studs needed
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170714_172357.jpg)
Belly pan will not fit as their headers are more forth
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170718_092847.jpg)
It will not fit with FJ1100 headers as those are slightly different(shorter) than 1200 although on their website stated as FJ1100 bolt on replacement.
see cyl 3 header still fully inserted in collector and OEM one too short to fit. You can not bent it upwards because of oil pan.
(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2102/4/4241/4241239_d4b1c2c056bec2f82a66490f5fdb1458/images/IMG_20170801_085419.jpg)
Double wall downpipes were used only on ´84 &´85 FJ1100.
But I think you don't have to worry if you want to use blackwidows on 1200 as 1200 headers are longer compared to 1100,
but haven't experienced as now i run 1TX downpipes and Delkevic collector with no issues :yahoo:
All story here: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16968.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16968.0)
Sounds like you had some issues, I had none with the midbox alone, thank goodness!
I can't comment on your particular issues, but an absolute golden rule of fitting exhausts, to anything, is to loose fit everything first. Bang everything around until it's settled and then progressively tighten from the front back. No exhaust joint or mounting point should be under stress and nothing should ever be "pulled" in by the fasteners, it will vibrate, probably leak and over time will crack.
You would be amazed just how much an exhaust can appear out of alignment by incorrect fitting sequence.
Noel