Hey everyone,
I picked up two 1986 FJ1200's a month ago and I'm working on getting one running, the other is a parts bike/future project.
I know the bike hasn't been started in a couple of years (at least), I got the bikes as a half finished project. After checking all my systems and experiencing the crank no start I decided to work my way down the list of things to try. Pulled a plug wire and put another plug in it and grounded it to the frame and verified spark. The lights and gauges all light up when the key is in the ON position. After that I tried the sucking on the vacuum line on the petcock and it felt like a plugged straw, this is correct right? I then made sure I was getting fuel in the bowls by unscrewing the drain screws in the bowls, plenty of fuel came out of all of them.
I'm definitely no bike expert and only have some experience doing basic stuff on cars and trucks but I'm pretty sure I'm experiencing what I think is called a "pre-detonation" and I'm getting too much fuel in my mixture. Reason being is I am experiencing a very loud "POPPING" sound coming from my exhaust and sometimes my carbs. Also some fuel is shooting out backwards out of my carbs towards the air box it seems. I turned the four pilot screws all the way in then backed them out 2 1/2 turns and still nothing. I then tried turning them 1 whole turn in and then 1 whole turn back out from the original 2 1/2 turn starting point. I also tried them all the way closed just for trial and error.
Any help would be appreciated. I'd really like to get this thing running so I can enjoy some freedom of the road this summer!
Make sure coils are hooked up correctly...
Frank
Frank,
Do you mean the spark plug wires? I have them routed from left to right
Wire 1 to Plug 1
Wire 2 to Plug 4
Wire 3 to Plug 2
Wire 4 to Plug 3
Did you disassemble the carbs to pieces and cleaned them properly? You should do this on a bike that sat a long time and wasn't prepared for it. Drained and cleaned the tank (bad gas from sitting)? Cleaned air filter? Checked for vacuum leaks?
Get all the spark plugs out and check for spark (bad spark plugs or one bad coil).
PS. I think that connecting scheme for spark plugs is correct, but someone else should comment.
Give us some introduction about yourself in 'Introductions'.
The carbs were soaked and cleaned but I did not break them down completely. I will include some pictures of my work. I replaced the needles in the bowls along with the gasket. The gas tank was empty when I got it, soaked for 36 hours in evapo-rust and washed out with warm water then gas and then filled with gas to prevent flash rusting.
The air filter is brand new.
As stated in my original post I already checked for spark but I will check again? All the spark plugs are brand new NGK DP8EA-9 properly gapped.
Here is a link to my introduction I posted upon first joining the forum. [sse]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16979.0[/sse]
Quote from: Heinrich535i on June 30, 2017, 06:20:07 AM
The carbs were soaked and cleaned but I did not break them down completely. I will include some pictures of my work. I replaced the needles in the bowls along with the gasket. The gas tank was empty when I got it, soaked for 36 hours in evapo-rust and washed out with warm water then gas and then filled with gas to prevent flash rusting.
The air filter is brand new.
As stated in my original post I already checked for spark but I will check again? All the spark plugs are brand new NGK DP8EA-9 properly gapped.
Here is a link to my introduction I posted upon first joining the forum. [sse]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16979.0[/sse]
Aahhh sorry, I must have missed your intro.
Yeah, I'd say you covered all my tips.
Regarding spark plugs, I understood that you checked for spark at only one plug? And you say you checked with another plug, actually leaving all plugs in the motor? If you did that, my point is that the plugs you left in the motor could actually be faulty.
Next, are you getting any overflow from carbs? If yes, check/adjust floats.
And in the end I think you should check valve clearances and compression (you can do it in reverse order, compression first and then if something is not right, valves).
Quote from: Heinrich535i on June 29, 2017, 09:56:08 PM
Frank,
Do you mean the spark plug wires? I have them routed from left to right
Wire 1 to Plug 1
Wire 2 to Plug 4
Wire 3 to Plug 2
Wire 4 to Plug 3
Should be 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 4-4
I know the firing order for these engines is 1 2 3 4 but my bike is an 86' and has two ignition coils. The ignition wire hook up on the parts bike I have still has the labels on the plug wires and I matched them up with the bike I'm trying to get running. Also how can a plug be faulty if it's brand new?
I just pulled the carbs off, again, and I'm measuring the height of the floats tonight. Will post my results later. I'm thinking its just getting too much fuel and not enough air in the mixture.
Quote from: Heinrich535i on June 29, 2017, 09:56:08 PM
Frank,
Do you mean the spark plug wires? I have them routed from left to right
Wire 1 to Plug 1
Wire 2 to Plug 4
Wire 3 to Plug 2
Wire 4 to Plug 3
Quote from: jscgdunn on July 01, 2017, 01:13:05 PM
Should be 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 4-4
No it should not. Sitting on the bike: Left coil goes to #1 and #4 and the Right coil goes to #2 and #3
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 01, 2017, 06:29:59 PM
I know the firing order for these engines is 1 2 3 4 but my bike is an 86' and has two ignition coils.
Incorrect^^^ the firing order for all FJ's is 1-2-4-3. All FJ's have 2 coils. All FJ's use a wasted spark.
If the plug wires are run as per your above reply #2 you are fine.
UPDATE: Spark plug wires are hooked up correctly. I pulled the carbs and measure the floats and they were all spot on within a couple of MM of the original specs.
Quote from: Heinrich535i on June 30, 2017, 06:20:07 AM
The carbs were soaked and cleaned but I did not break them down completely.....
What we have learned (the hard way) we refer to Carb Cleaning 101: Half measures will avail you nothing.
You might have soaked the carbs, but they are (most assuredly) not clean.
My vote is for plugged pilot jets and idle circuit and choke circuit.
Try starting it with starter spray.....if it fires up, then you know the problem is fuel delivery.
Pat,
After removing the carbs I noticed that the throttle plates were all a bit different and I bench synced them to allow just a little air in. After hooking everything back up I'm still unsuccessful in getting it to turn over, she doesn't even wanna cough. Starting fluid only results in a loud "POP" coming out my exhaust.
btw, thanks for the clarification on the spark plug wires.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 01, 2017, 08:21:50 PM
Quote from: Heinrich535i on June 29, 2017, 09:56:08 PM
Frank,
Do you mean the spark plug wires? I have them routed from left to right
Wire 1 to Plug 1
Wire 2 to Plug 4
Wire 3 to Plug 2
Wire 4 to Plug 3
I was referring to the numbers on the wires 1-1 2-2 3-3 4-4....
Quote from: jscgdunn on July 01, 2017, 01:13:05 PM
Should be 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 4-4
No it should not. Sitting on the bike: Left coil goes to #1 and #4 and the Right coil goes to #2 and #3
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 01, 2017, 06:29:59 PM
I know the firing order for these engines is 1 2 3 4 but my bike is an 86' and has two ignition coils.
Incorrect^^^ the firing order for all FJ's is 1-2-4-3. All FJ's have 2 coils. All FJ's use a wasted spark.
If the plug wires are run as per your above reply #2 you are fine.
Another update, Happy 4th of July everyone,
Carbs were pulled off again and completely disassembled this time. The vent line and other connecting line o-rings were replaced as well as everything being taken apart and cleaned again and all passages sprayed through to ensure no blockage. Fuel tank was drained through petcock to verify that it was in working order. I'm still at a loss as to why the starting fluid isn't even having any effect.
Just a quick recap, it turns over. So the safety system ie. "in gear" (clutch) and "side stand" switches seem to work. The system is giving juice and sparks a plug when turning over. There is fuel in the float bowls. Starter spray creates more of a knock (backfire) than a cough. I am thinking that the plugs are miss connected. So the spark is not in the right place. However, you have a reference from the other bike on how the plugs are connected. Here is an image from my '89 regarding the plugs.
Pull the plugs, rest them on the top of the head with plug wires connected [AND THE PLUG BODY TOUCHING THE ENGINE TO GROUND IT] . Push the starter button, you should see a nice fat blue spark on each plug.
easier to see in a darkened garage.
Edit by Monkey
Think I found my problem! Been at it 12 hours now, great way to spend my fourth of July. I had noticed some melted wires near the battery and one of the relays looked completely fried. After swapping relays and grabbing a pigtail off the parts bike I still had no response from the engine. I said screw it, I'm gonna swap the ENTIRE wiring harness, amazed myself at how quickly I had it done. After hooking everything back up I was going over my work and noticed I had an extra plug that had nothing to plug into it, it was the pink one, and there was nothing I could find to plug into it. After a second, third, and fourth look at the parts bike I realized that the wire coming out of the alternator was missing. I plan on swapping them instead of just trying to solder the wire.
That looks like the dreaded red alternator plug that gets cooked. Since you had reported spark at the plug this was not top on the suspect list. But the plug does not seem in bad shape. The melted wires are a nasty gremlin and very happy you found it. I hope you get your FJ fired up soon.
STILL NOTHING! I swear this bike will be the death of me. I swapped alternators and hooked up the wire and everything. Starter fluid still has no effect. The starter is kicking strong and she wants to go however there's still no ignition in the engine. Going to fully cover all points of the electrical system tomorrow and check for spark in all the plugs.
I think this forum is the only thing keeping me from pulling my hair out through this mess. :dash1: Can't thank you guys enough for all the help so far. Let's get another FJ back on the road!!!!!!
Time for a Man Shed day near you. I wish I could jump in and help, hard to do over the web. Keep at it, we will get the FJ back into the Kookaloo zone...
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 04, 2017, 11:01:07 PM
Starter fluid still has no effect. The starter is kicking strong and she wants to go however there's still no ignition in the engine. Going to fully cover all points of the electrical system tomorrow and check for spark in all the plugs.
If, after you have checked the plugs and you have GOOD spark, it's time to check the valve timing. I can't remember if you've said that you have given it a compression test previously, if you haven't, do one before checking the valve timing.
Regards, Pete.
Quote from: oldktmdude on July 05, 2017, 12:16:40 AM
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 04, 2017, 11:01:07 PM
Starter fluid still has no effect. The starter is kicking strong and she wants to go however there's still no ignition in the engine. Going to fully cover all points of the electrical system tomorrow and check for spark in all the plugs.
If, after you have checked the plugs and you have GOOD spark, it's time to check the valve timing. I can't remember if you've said that you have given it a compression test previously, if you haven't, do one before checking the valve timing.
Regards, Pete.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 04, 2017, 08:09:12 PM
Pull the plugs, rest them on the top of the head with plug wires connected [AND THE PLUG BODY TOUCHING THE ENGINE TO GROUND IT] . Push the starter button, you should see a nice fat blue spark on each plug.
easier to see in a darkened garage.
Edit by Monkey
Yeah.
I told him that a week ago, but I don't know if he did it or not.
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 04, 2017, 05:53:17 PM
....I'm still at a loss as to why the starting fluid isn't even having any effect.
I guess you know, but just in case, that starter fluid is sprayed in with the throttle wide open, choke off and on CV carbies you
must lift the slides to spray it in. Then crank immediately, it relies on the mist which on cold engine parts won't linger for long.
IMO
Noel
Did you replace the dodgy looking red plug? Even if on initial inspection it looks passable, it can be stuffed on the inside. It may not directly affect the cranking issue, but will surely affect charging of the battery, and if the battery is not in top condition, that will hinder starting.
Mark
Pulled all the plugs and checked for spark. Plugs 1 and 4 that connect to the first coil are in working order and create a intermittent blue spark, however plugs 2 and 3 that lead to the second coil are not sparking. I tried swapping coils from the parts bike and got the same results.
Also cleaned up that red and pink plug that runs from the alternator to the wiring harness by the battery and still no solid spark from Plugs 2 and 3.
Replaced the IC Ignitor and lone behold I have spark coming from Plugs 2 and 3. She still doesn't wanna start though. Going to keep trying and post my results.
Well, compression results are in. Things aren't looking good for me.
Cylinder #1 - 120psi
Cylinder #2 - 100psi
Cylinder #3 - 120psi
Cylinder #4 - 140psi
I think this means an engine swap is in order. :dash2:
Any suggestions before I start tearing stuff apart?
Depends, was the engine warmed up? Are the valves adjusted? Was the throttle wide open?
I have not checked valve clearance yet. And I'm not sure how I'd warm the engine without it being able to start.
Throttle was wide open during compression check for all four cylinders.
Adjust the valves (on a cold engine) Get the engine running, ride the bike for a couple hundred miles and recheck compression on a warm engine.
Assume nothing until then.
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 06, 2017, 07:16:24 PM
Well, compression results are in. Things aren't looking good for me.
Cylinder #1 - 120psi
Cylinder #2 - 100psi
Cylinder #3 - 120psi
Cylinder #4 - 140psi
I think this means an engine swap is in order. :dash2:
Any suggestions before I start tearing stuff apart?
Yes, don't! (start tearing stuff apart)
Cold compressions readings with that sort of variance mean nothing.
A compression test without checking the valves have clearance first means nothing.
I wouldn't be surprised if my engine gave similar readings cold (and 60,000km since the last valve check)
Even the 100psi under the conditions you tested is likely to rise to within serviceable limits. If it doesn't it's likely a valve which is just a head off job, not an engine swap.
From my experience, the numbers you quote under the conditions you tested would be reasonable for a serviceable motor.
Don't jump the gun. As Pat says, check the valve clearances, get it hot and re do the compression test while its hot.
IMO
Noel
Thanks for the advice.
Popped the valve cover off and everything is very clean underneath! Totally different story for the parts bike, its black underneath the valve cover.
Bike I'm working on has 38k on it.
Parts bike has a mere 24k on it, weird.
Also I torqued the head bolts to spec and the camshaft cap bolts. I noticed the very top right bolt for the camshaft wouldn't fully tighten. It will tighten all the way down however it wont fully seat and lock to torque, it just wants to spin.
I'll include pictures of the tops of the cylinder heads and the conditions.
First three photos are of the bike I'm trying to get running and the last one is the parts bike.
Quote from: ribbert on July 06, 2017, 08:23:32 PM
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 06, 2017, 07:16:24 PM
Well, compression results are in. Things aren't looking good for me.
Cylinder #1 - 120psi
Cylinder #2 - 100psi
Cylinder #3 - 120psi
Cylinder #4 - 140psi
I think this means an engine swap is in order. :dash2:
Any suggestions before I start tearing stuff apart?
Yeah, those are pretty much the numbers I got from my engine when cold, with 33k kms on it, but running perfectly. Like most said here, don't rush for engine swap.
Yes, don't! (start tearing stuff apart)
Cold compressions readings with that sort of variance mean nothing.
A compression test without checking the valves have clearance first means nothing.
I wouldn't be surprised if my engine gave similar readings cold (and 60,000km since the last valve check)
Even the 100psi under the conditions you tested is likely to rise to within serviceable limits. If it doesn't it's likely a valve which is just a head off job, not an engine swap.
From my experience, the numbers you quote under the conditions you tested would be reasonable for a serviceable motor.
Don't jump the gun. As Pat says, check the valve clearances, get it hot and re do the compression test while its hot.
IMO
Noel
Quote from: Heinrich535i on July 06, 2017, 09:19:26 PM
Also I torqued the head bolts to spec and the camshaft cap bolts. I noticed the very top right bolt for the camshaft wouldn't fully tighten. It will tighten all the way down however it wont fully seat and lock to torque, it just wants to spin.
Uh, you might want to consider fixing this before starting it.
I'm not able to get enough light in there to see down the hole but it feels like whatever that camshaft cap bolt is supposed to be threading into is either missing or fell down, and I'm not trying to cause internal destruction in my engine when I finally get it running. I also torqued the camshaft cap bolts all the way around on the parts bike and they all seemed snug and locked down just fine.
Here is a flipped and edited version of the first photo. Red circle points to the problem bolt.
Does anyone know what this bolts thread into before I take off the cylinder head?
It screws into threads in the ALUMINUM head. Threads which I assume are stripped out.
Time for a Heli-Coil
FJ_Hooligan,
I must say I'm pretty glad I caught this early, would've been utter destruction if I didn't. This is the first bike I've ever owned and it's slowly becoming more of a project than I realized, I've never taken an engine apart this far. I think I might leave this up to the guys at my local motorcycle shop as I've already got an appointment for a valve adjustment on Tuesday.
The price of me buying the valve adjustment tool and the shim kit are more expensive than what they quoted me for the job and I think I'd rather have a professional fix it right the first time, nor have I ever attempted a Heli-Coil. I plan on buying the kit and tool down the road and learning after I get the bike running, I've done valve adjustments on my 1987 BMW 535i before however I was able to make my own tool for that.