I was infected a couple of years ago by the dragracing bug. It is extremely infectious and creates major complications when coupled with the modifier bug.
I've raced my 89 FJ1200 off and on for a couple of years (started as a result of a fairly bad traffic stop). Both the rider (me :sarcastic:) and the bike made improvements. I had a lot of fun, learned a lot, and figured out it is better to have a street bike and a drag bike vice doing both with the same bike - if you're fairly serious about doing both. About a year ago I started planning and gathering parts to make an old FJ1100 parts bike I had into a strip dedicated bike.
The 89 eventually morphed into this:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_21_03_10_11_19_22_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_21_03_10_11_19_22_1.jpeg)
Mostly street/strip style mods quickly changed back to "street" settings or easy to live with on the street -- mostly a fork strap, two position dogbones, and airshifter (running off CO2 paintball bottle).
Here's the "start" of the FJ1100 strip dedicated bike. Not exactly the "start", but it is where things are starting this weekend!
This is with most things mocked up for the original build to sort the details for some of the bigger changes. Still plenty of details to go.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_21_03_10_11_00_41_0.jpeg)
Everything apart again for some final tweaks, paint, and start putting it back together.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_21_03_10_11_00_42_1.jpeg)
Threw some paint at the frame and swingarm today - plan to start putting the chassis back together tomorrow.
Either your not married or there is a fireplace in the garage :wacko2:
That's one long swingarm you've got there.
Does it run the original rear shock still?
Oh, and where's the foot pegs ???
Hope it all works for you.
Its to bad I like the twistys cause man does the fj look good stretched, Have you thought about turbo.
Looks sweet tho, good luck with that moditis
WoW, i wish my shop was cozy like that...the mat-black on the 89 looks pretty cool...gives me some ideas for when i get tired of the original (dark blue)paint i have now. Is that a PM anodized wheel? Also, do you have any worry's about the trans on the dragbike?...My turbo FJ 1200 was a street only ride...that decision was made after i had trans out for undercut and saw it next to a KZ and a GS trans....quite a difference.
That looks like it'll 60 pretty well, now to see how it does downtrack!
That is a great work space ya got there. I don't see the tool boxes yet, is the coffee table a motor cycle stand?
What kind of times did you/have you run. I am going to put a 17 countersprocket on mine with a 40 rear. I hoping to run some low 11's. I used to run a car down the 1/4 several times a year, but it cost so much to get a car to run in the 11's. The best I ever built was a high 13's car that I drove on the street. Cars start getting a bit tempermental when you get them down in the 10's and 11's in the quarter. That is why I like bikes so much, they are fast all the way around with built in dependabiliy.
Later.....
A 17/40 on the FJ is a good gearing at the track. If you're running pods/pipe, it's a little tall but can work if you're light.
With a strap and lowering the back, high 10's is doable with practice. Stock ride height and a 200lb rider can go 11.teens or so like that.
Looks like I see a lockup/slider cover above too....
Keeping the dual discs or dropping one for weight?
Actually, I am married, but I'm a geo-bachelor right now (not uncommon in the military when they station you in the middle of nowhere). I'm actually living in my father-in-law's ranch house -- finally evicted most of the mice, got rid of the bat a while back (that'll get your attention in the middle of the night!), but the spiders and rattlesnakes will continue to be occasional nuisances! There is a garage, but I only have about a quarter of a small two car garage to use for both storage and work space. The 89 occupies that space right now. Very close getting that one back on the road again!
On the 89, the PM rims were just scuffed and painted (black wheel paint if I remember correctly). Figured polishing them would have been out of place on the "Battleaxe".
The swingarm is an FZ1 swingarm extended 0-6" and narrowed to fit the FJ frame. It uses an R1 6" rear rim. The rim sits all the way to the left in the arm, but is still offset to the right in the swingarm. By taking the entire 8mm cut off the left side of the swingarm, it centered the tire in the frame. Still have to confirm the chain alignment, but it looks like it may be good with just the TRAC offset countershaft sprocket.
The shock is an Elka drag shock spec'd for a ProStreet Busa. I picked it up second hand for a real good price. Had to take the mounts out to 12mm to fit the FJ. Originally I used the link from the 89 to convert to the dogbone style suspension linkage, but am now using an adjustable ProLink (again, second hand spec'd for a Busa). The ProLink should make it a lot easier and quicker to dial in the rear suspension.
Unfortunately the bottom half of my tool box is still in FL with my aircompressor. The top half of the tool box was in the trailer that was stolen in Dec. Lost a lot of tools and parts in that deal. I still get upset when I go to use a tool and realize it was in the trailer too (latest things I've realized I'm missing is my "standard" sized torque wrench and my dial indicator and stand).
Thought about going flat black on the dragbike too, but I'm planning on going with a stock paint scheme instead – thought it would add to the "surprise factor". Anyone know a good match for the "smokey silver quartz" color on the 84? I've picked up a couple of cans of the Rustoleum Sunrise Red to closely match the stock red color.
Andy is spot on about setting up the bike – strapping the front and lowering the rear are cheap, easy, and quickly reversed. The first couple of times I went to the track it was at stock height. Strapping the front and lowering the back made a big difference – not only in performance but more importantly in how it felt. Much more controllable and predictable. With the stock engine (with carbs, 4-1, and Dyna ignition) I only raced on 1/8 mile tracks. My best were some 6.8's at 103mph – that roughly equates to a 10.7 or 10.8 1/4 mile. Best run I made was with the used 1314 kit (that didn't make a real good ring seal) and a ported head with oversized valves and mild cams. Turned a couple of 10.79's at 125mph, but this was at Bandimere (Denver, CO) when the DA (density altitude) was 7600'(about a 25% horsepower loss)! The NHRA correction factors put that at a 9.75 at sea level. Truth be known I'd probably would had run closer to a 10.0 a sea level – don't know how well I would have launched with the additional horsepower!
Yes, I did have a lockup clutch (single stage) from Pro Chassis Racing along with the quick access cover. I lost the clutch and billet basket when the trailer was stolen. Luckily I didn't have the cover in the trailer. Nobody (besides PCR) makes a lockup for the FJ anymore. [I'm not real inpressed with either the quality of work nor the customer support from PCR] I looked at converting to a Busa basket and hub, but couldn't find anyone who could machine the FJ transmission shaft spline pattern in the Busa basket. I did find someone who could do custom heavy duty billet transmission shafts and could put a Busa nose on the FJ shaft, but was very pricey. Especially when you added in the cost of the Busa lock up and billet basket too. I ended up biting the bullet and went big on the clutch. Tim Hayes machined a hybrid clutch – uses FJ hub and steels with a Busa basket and frictions. That thing is definitely metal working porn!
I'm keeping both front rotors. One, I can probably use a little extra weight out there, and two, I don't ever want to come up short on braking power – especially if there is a short shut down area. Also, I've tried a single caliper with a master sized for two – downright scary – no feel to it at all, "very wooden" feeling. A lot easier to keep the extra caliper than find the right master cylinder.
Got the frame back on the wheels! Still have to fab some spacers for the shock linkage and the swingarm bolt. I'll be using stock Busa rearsets mounted on aluminum brackets to set them back about 4 inches and down about 2 inches.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_25_0.jpeg)
16" Honda CBR rim and rotors with low profile tire. I was able to lower the fender 1.25 inches – more clearance to the lower triple and the fairing to get lower!
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_26_2.jpeg)
Flipped the lower triple clamp so I could raise the fork tubes higher and the clamps would still properly grip the wide portion of the fork tubes.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_27_4.jpeg)
You can see how adjusting the LinkPro changes the leverage ratio on the shock to firm or soften the rear suspension. Adjustable dogbones then allow you to reset the rear ride height.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_27_3.jpeg)
Quote from: fj1289 on March 23, 2010, 02:19:23 AM
Nobody (besides PCR) makes a lockup for the FJ anymore.
Orient Express (http://www.orientexpress.com/Yamaha/Standard/FJ+1200/Clutch/?osCsid=04ffdda11a4a58f7cd67eb43d4eeb17d) has one listed, is that who was supplying them?
You could alternately go by tracing a gasket on 1" plate, but it's not as nice as the quick access covers.
But good lord, that's going to be an interesting setup, hopefuly easy to dial in!
All your predicted numbers look right to me. About 10 years ago, I was looking to get a 9 (any 9) with stock swingarm, and my best run was a 10.05 1/4 at Great Lakes Dragaway WI with my 1387 on 114octane, and the experience honestly scared me so badly, I left it at that. I was ready to put on a 3in extended swingarm (still have it, if anyone is interested) and go at it again. Somewhere along the line, sanity took over, and I came to grips that 'someone' could do it, but it wasn't going to be me.
With the stock swingarm, the bike just wanted to stand on the rear tire. At 200lbs, my 10.05 resulted in a half moon bruise from the windshield in my ribs. The view looked like a long-jump skier sailing with the FJ standing on the rear tire under you. Very intimidating and not for the faint of heart.
Good luck with the project, I look forward to living that elusive 9 through you!
Good show!
Scott J
85 FJ1387 - Thor
92 FJ1200 - 'minime' for now
Dude,
Serious undertaking. Much impressed with what you have going there. Look forward to following your build and first run. You have inspired me to find(rescue) a neglected FJ and join in the fun. Good luck and keep it going!
I spoke with Kent Stotz a few years ago at the indy dealer show. He was visiting with Dave from world wide bearings who had Kents bike on display.
One of the first things I noticed was that he was running the forks backwards in the clamps placing the calipers in front of the forks. He claimed that it helped with clearance and moved a little weight forward helping his launch. I don't remember how he dealt with the front fender or even if he had one. IIRC he was running both rotors and calipers.
When I worked at Holeshot (not that holeshot, sorry) we had several jockeys from Turfway Park and River Downs as customers. As you can guess we lowered a lot of bikes. Usually this was done with lowering links in the rear and sliding the tubes up in the clamps, but in several cases we shortened the travel and lowered stock forks. This was fairly easy to do on conventional damping rod forks similar to the FJ and was easily reversable.
If anyone is interested I can shorten up set of stock forks.
QuoteOne of the first things I noticed was that he was running the forks backwards in the clamps placing the calipers in front of the forks. He claimed that it helped with clearance and moved a little weight forward helping his launch. I don't remember how he dealt with the front fender or even if he had one. IIRC he was running both rotors and calipers.
Was that on the blackbird or on the RR? I actually met him at the track once when he was just tuning and fighting a head gasket leak, ended up holding the flashlight for him a bit. Really nice guy.
QuoteAll your predicted numbers look right to me. About 10 years ago, I was looking to get a 9 (any 9) with stock swingarm, and my best run was a 10.05 1/4 at Great Lakes Dragaway WI with my 1387 on 114octane, and the experience honestly scared me so badly, I left it at that. I was ready to put on a 3in extended swingarm (still have it, if anyone is interested) and go at it again.
Give me time, that's my goal :) One of the tricks is setting the chassis up so that it actually lowers itself under power, making it even more wheelie-resistant. Still back and forth on an arm, I think 4" is minimum required to get a nitrous/shifter bottle in front of the tire tough.
Not sure. I have looked at both machines several time, but drag racing has never been a big interest for me. World Wide Bearings sponsors a god friend of mine so we usually meet Scott Valetti at the WWB booth for lunch.
I have known Scott for several years via my buddy Rob. Scott is the one who hooked Rob up with Dave at WWB.
I thought it was funny when someone asked me why I was eating lunch with the owner of AMA dragbike, and I had no clue who he was talking about...
Do you spend time over at www.dragbike.com? (http://www.dragbike.com?)
Just looked at a few pics, and here is one of the 1000 with the forks reversed. Looks like he is only running 1 rotor.
(http://www.stotzracing.com/images/031207c.jpg)
Quote from: fj1289 on March 23, 2010, 02:19:23 AM
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_25_0.jpeg)
Damn that's looking good.
If building it is half the fun, then it's gunna be one hell of a ten second ride. :wacko1:
There's a huge amount of adjustment for that rear wheel.
That much adjustment would also help trim the rear spring rate.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_27_3.jpeg)
That linkage is a work of art. Wish I was that bloody clever.
Where's the NOx gunna go ???
If that thing does what I'm guessing, it's not gonna be a 10 second ride....
About the lockup – I talked to Orient Express about a month ago. Late last year they sold the last FJ lockup they had. I think they were made by MRE, but are no longer making them. It seems like the FJ is the king of the "that used to be made for it but is no longer available" compared to all the other bikes. For others, it is still made for the old school Kaw's and Suzi's, or it was never made for most Hondas or Yamahas!
Getting a stock wheel base down to 10.05 is no easy feat, even with a pumped up motor. Do you have any of your time slips? It'd be interesting to see the 60 and the 330 times and the mph.
I've only heard good things relayed about Ken Stotz. I've got a couple of magazine articles on that bike I flip through from time to time to help get new ideas. This bike will go through a few iterations getting to the "final" setup. I'm intentionally not doing some things (like reversing the fork legs, putting the battery in the fairing, etc) until I've got the basics sorted and it is running consistently. I have to stop myself from trying to "improve" on too many things or I'll never get the thing finished and on the track! And this is the first place I've lived where winter is serious – so that is the built in time to do future mods! The forks are early R1 forks (a 99 I think) and have been internally lowered. They are pretty freaking stiff now – they have some travel left, but you won't use much of it unless it's coming down off a gangster wheelie. Really not planning to try that out though!
I'm over on dragbike.com occasionally. I spend more time on psychobike.com. Dragbike.com is great for getting solid info from guys that have been in the game forever – it is mostly the wheelie bar crowd. Scott is good people – always very responsive when I've had an organizational question, and constantly playing the balancing act between racers, sponsors, and fans that is required to keep an organization like that going and growing. Psychobike.com is more entertaining and more of the no-bar street tire scene. Good place to find info on later model bikes and the mods being done to them now. I've tried to mix the best of both – we'll see if it works or not.
For not being interested in drag racing, you sure do it a lot – at the start of every road race!!! Everyone you out drag to turn one is one less person you have to pass later!
I'm hoping for a bit quicker than 10's. I went big on two things – the clutch and the top end of the engine. When I was just getting really well hooked about two years ago, I bought a bunch of parts off psychobike. By this time the 1200's tranny was about done with the abuse and I wanted more power! The parts included a ported big valve head, cams, a bigblock with 1380 pistons, crank with carrillo rods, the bored cases, and an undercut trans. I hastily bolted it all back together and tried running it as it was. Attempt number one had the cams out of time (intake off by 1 tooth and exhaust by 2! Wonder it ran at all and didn't break anything either!) and the piston rings not sealing well. Even after I got the cams timed properly it continued to push a lot of oil out the breather and base gasket. I eventually put another used 1314 kit on the same lower end and a fresh head on it. That was the combo I got down to 10.79 at Bandimere. That was also the day I spun the #4 rod bearing. Noticed the bike lacked pull at the top of the last run and the mph was down considerably. The damage wasn't bad (especially since I didn't try running it anymore!) and was repairable at reasonable cost. It was at that point I decided to press forward full speed with a dedicated dragbike and put the 89 back on the road full time again! I had a lot of pressure to do a Busa. Almost pulled trigger on one, but decided at that time that I really didn't WANT a Busa no matter how smart a decision it may be – it had to be an FJ. But, I'd build the FJ with all the current mods and tricks and go fast ideas – and shouldn't have to make any excuses for it's age. It may not be quicker than a Busa, 14, GSXR, CBR RR, that's modded similarly, but it'll be close enough to bite 'em if they aren't careful!
10.79 is still more than respectable, especially considering that Bandimere is at 5800' of elevation!
Quote from: doright1 on March 25, 2010, 08:59:56 AM
10.79 is still more than respectable, especially considering that Bandimere is at 5800' of elevation!
I agree, that's gotta be darn close to a flat 10 down at altitude! I'll try to hunt up some slips I may have scanned into the computer at the time, as most of the tracks I went to used thermal-fax type printouts. I too believe you will be in the 9's with the swingarm, and with lots less drama (please!). What are you running for carbs then? I'm on 44PHH Mikuni Radial Slides with short stacks.
Cheers
Scott J
85 FJ1389 - Thor
92 FJ1200 - 'minime' for now
No spoilers about your combination, fj1289? I'll keep my yap shut until you spill the beans on it :empathy3:
However I know exactly where the head that was used for that run is going to be put... hopefully it sees some good numbers!! At some point I'll post some of my build pictures, but not the ugly ones (which doesn't leave much, I'm not much of a mechanic) and start my own bloody thread about racing. We could even get a subforum for the three or four of us who like to dragrace :P
As for Mr. Stotz, when he was at the track he showed me his DA setup and I ended up spending a fair amount of time annoying him...er.. helping him (read: playing tool bitch) while he was troubleshooting a nasty leak that only showed up over 6psi on the RR. Super nice guy, fantastic rider, and a very determined individual. Sadly the track was junk for a >400hp bike that day, and he ended up by giving up on tuning because of the track prep after only 3 runs. Ran a flat 9.0 after shutting off at half track as I remember though... scary, scary machine.
Not much progress lately - working on subframe, undertail, and mounting the electronics.
This past week has been a complete nut-crusher at work. A couple of 15 hour days ( I also have a 1 hour commute each way) and none less than 12 hours - the whole time working like a scared rat. Some progress last weekend, none this week. Supposed to be out of town this coming week -- TBD now.
The old combo was a 1314 top end (that needed new rings), a ported big valve head, mild cams (still shim over bucket), and Keihin FCRs (39mm). Really liked that combo - especially for a street bike. Going to be hard to go back to a stock motor for the street bike!
I thought I'd already mentioned the combo for the dragbike - must have been another thread. The dragbike build is based around some used parts I bought a couple years ago, but have been completely reworked. The aftermarket big block has been taken out to 85mm (1447 cc's) with custom JE pistons (weigh the same as smaller 1314 pistons!), refurbished Carillo H-beam rods, a race ported big valve head, shim under bucket Web cams, and 40mm Lectrons. Also running a stock crank that's been balanced (NOT lightened) and nitrided. Paul Gast (did the pistons and head work) said it should be a reliable bracket racer that'll only need frequent oil changes - shouldn't even need freshening up after a season!
Just need to finish up the chassis and build the engine (most of that effort will entail multiple times putting things together, measure clearances, disassemble, adjust, reassemble, recheck, disassemble and prep for final assembly (if it's all right at that point)!
Tracks here are opening now -- I'm ready to hit it -- got to get finished!
just joined the forum :drinks: cheers
fj1289,
Is that spider pipe your using a custom made or from a gs1100?
Im building an fj dragbike and cant for the life of me find a
sidewinder or spider pipe for this bike.I read a thread suggesting
that the gs 1100/1150 pipe will work with some fanagling.
thanks,Steve
Quote from: fj1289 on April 02, 2010, 10:50:44 PM
..... Also running a stock crank that's been balanced (NOT lightened) and nitrided......
What's your reasoning on not lightening your crank? Better control? Durability?
Great project! Very cool to see a bro. wave the FJ flag in the face of the powerful Suzuki's and Kawasaki's
Keep us informed of your progress and results....Cheers.
Quote from: fjdragbike on April 06, 2010, 06:27:36 PM
just joined the forum :drinks: cheers
fj1289,
Is that spider pipe your using a custom made or from a gs1100?
Im building an fj dragbike and cant for the life of me find a
sidewinder or spider pipe for this bike.I read a thread suggesting
that the gs 1100/1150 pipe will work with some fanagling.
thanks,Steve
Steve,
It's an old Murray pipe for the FJ. I looked for more than two years for a sidewinder for an FJ. Bought a whole bike for a V&H sidewinder and then a week later got offered the Murray from a guy on Psychobike.com.
A few ideas - I've heard a sidewinder for a V&H sidewinder for a KZ fits the chassis better but the spigots are wrong -- maybe could cut those off and fabricate stubs for the head and mount the header in the stubs using quick disconnect springs.
The GS1100/1150 pipe fits the head - but the tubes do have to be spread out a bit - spacing between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 are good, but 2 & 3 are too close together for the FJ - so you have to spread everything out a bit. Also have to elongate the holes in the flanges since the FJ exhaust studs a slightly farther apart than the GS studs. I do have a V&H sidewinder header for the GS, but don't have the megaphone any more. PM me if you are interested in it - I've had it mounted up, but have not run it. It is ceramic coated silver and is in good shape - the divider plane in the collector has come loose at one of the tack welds - easy repair.
Another option is to have a custom header made. Anyone that does custom car headers should be able to hook you up. Will be $$$ though.
I do have the V&H FJ sidewinder too if you are interested, but I need to check with another member here first since we've discussed it already.
What are your plans for your dragbike? Street tire or slick? Bars or no bars? Full frame? Stock frame? Shock or strut? Engine specs? Bracket bike? ET? Grudge? "Just" TNT?
There's a small thread on the oldschool forum on psychobike on FJ's. Not a lot there yet, but a couple of people are putting together FJ's for the strip.
Good luck and keep up posted on your progress and results!
Chris
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 08, 2010, 01:06:12 PM
What's your reasoning on not lightening your crank? Better control? Durability?
Great project! Very cool to see a bro. wave the FJ flag in the face of the powerful Suzuki's and Kawasaki's
Keep us informed of your progress and results....Cheers.
Thanks Pat! Getting anxious to get it done! It should run pretty strong - the time slips have the final say though!
On not lightening the crank - I've been told from a few different sources that FJ cranks are prone to breaking in dragstrip use if they've been lightened. I haven't been able to find out the exact cause of this -- the sudden shock at launch? higher RPMs? Hard acceleration followed by sudden deceleration? Heavier pistons? No matter the cause, I've chosen to heed the warnings!
Chris
The other rationale to not lighten the crank is to retain as much inertia within the rotating assembly as possible. Helps keeps the revs up on shifts, and is "free" energy at the launch.
Progress has been slow, but have a few updates.
Sprayed the tank and fairing - both need a little sanding and another shot of clear. Used Rustoleum Sunrise Red (7762) from previous posts on the list. I found Duplicolor Silver Charcoal to be a reasonably close match for the silver. It is a little too "bright", but will work for my purposes. The gloss is good on the Sunrise Red, but not the Charcoal Silver, so I've oversprayed with Rustoleum Crystal Clear. I've gotten the best results onthe clear by spraying a "wet" coat - went a little heavy with it on the tank and have some runs to sand out. Went a little light on the fairing and didn't get the same gloss.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_22_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_22_1.jpeg)
Trimmed some tabs and lugs at the rear of the subframe and cut down the trail light for more tire clearance when the bike squats on launch. Also fabbed an undertail – “version 1.0” is made from several pieces of thin (.025”) AL sheets from the hardware store. I’ll redo it later from a solid piece of .05 or .063 sheet AL (like the tiger tails available for late model bikes).
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_23_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_23_3.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_24_4.jpeg)
About half way through the wiring. Most of the wires are run, but still need wire in the shift system and data acquisition, rerun a couple wires, trim it all to final length and bundle it up neatly.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_24_5.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_25_04_10_9_54_25_6.jpeg)
I finally have everything on hand to start on the engine! Just have to clear off the kitchen table first! (That’s where I’ve been doing my plastic “welding” to repair a lot of these panels)
Looking good so far man. Any ideas on ducting air in to the carbs? It almost looks like you could run a heat shield over the head and have a nice path for cooler air to come over the motor, but it'd kill cooling to the head. Been trying to think of a way to pull it off myself and short of goofy scoops on the sides I can't quite suss it... might end up opening the sidepanels a little and putting a larger mesh'd area in them somehow, but then it's still pulling air from a low pressure area right behind your knees, at best!
Also, you strapping that? Looks like the front fender could have the holes elongated and slid down to gain a little clearance if you need it, as it's riding high over the tire... (or is that where you're putting a few pounds of stick on wheel weights... heh!)
Have thought about ducting air to the carbs - may try it in another rebuild (will probably "improve" this thing a couple of times!). Thinking of running from the side scoops back under the tank - since I've moved the fairing forward a couple of inches the old ducts to the head don't pass through the frame anymore anyway.
Won't be strapping this one - had the forks cut - they are tight, no slack to strap out! The height right now is about as low as I can get in the front due to tire clearance on the header. The fender has already been lowered over an inch - it sets about 5/8 inch at front and 3/8 inch at rear. I'll slot the lower mounting hole at the bottom of the lowering tab I made to even that out. Don't want to go any closer - at the center there is even less tire clearance since the fender is curved for a 17" tire and I'm running a low-profile 16".
Started on the engine - rod bearings are tight so I've ordered up some new sizes from Randy. Will try to mock up the lower end tonight so I can measure the deck height and order the correct thickness base gasket. Pics to follow - internal engine porn!
Gonna run one of these?
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/49_29_04_10_8_57_06.jpeg)
http://www.fastbygast.com/Catagories/Products/Description/VacuumII.asp (http://www.fastbygast.com/Catagories/Products/Description/VacuumII.asp)
Pat, not planning on it - I don't think it will push oil without it. Have thought about doing an exhaust eductor in the exhaustand hooking that up to a one way valve to draw a small amount of vacuume to keep the oil in and maybe gain a horse or two.
Here's a comparism of the stock vice the JE pistons:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_29_04_10_11_21_14_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_29_04_10_11_21_14_1.jpeg)
The cast aluminum big block:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_29_04_10_11_21_15_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_29_04_10_11_21_16_3.jpeg)
Piston is .033" proud without base gasket - spec from the builder is .006 to .007" in the hole with the base gasket, so .040 copper base gasket should do the trick.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_29_04_10_11_21_16_4.jpeg)
Consider the valve between breather and pipe, yeah... but one more thing to mess with when it's time to pull the pipe off, ugh.
Motor looks good like that!
Some good progress made over the last few weeks!
Finally got the engine assembled. Took a couple of tries to get the right rod bearings, had to order the base gasket after checking the deck height, had to clearance the #4 rod and bolt for the clutch basket, disovered the heavy duty cylinder head nuts had been with the bunch of stolen parts, etc. Now I know it takes a month to assemble an engine once you get all the big pieces together!
The clutch setup still has potential to be a problem, but the remainder should be fairly straight forward.
The goal now is to be ready to hit the strip June 4th & 5th.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_22_05_10_11_33_48_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_22_05_10_11_33_48_1.jpeg)
Definitely looking like a dragbike there...
Keep it up!
Almost Done! Feels like I've been telling myself that for 2 months! :lol:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_13_06_10_11_25_09_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_13_06_10_11_25_10_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_13_06_10_11_25_08_0.jpeg)
Plan to start it up this week and start climbing the learning curve on tuning these Lectrons.
The last few weeks had the header pipes cut and rewelded to move the entire exhaust back just over an inch to gain much needed tire clearance. I also had to redo the right side rearset mount to get the peg above the megaphone. Had to fab a bracket to mount the shift cylinder in order to get enough travel to let it shift through all the gears. The shift side works - need to test the kill side. The kill signal is based off a pressure switch on the shift cylinder vice using the shift button - should shorten the needed kill time and increase shift reliability by momentarily preloading the shift lever prior to the kill. Mounted the CO2 bottle to the frame for the shifter and mounted an expansion bottle in the subframe to hold a more steady pressure for the shifter. Fabbed the top end oiler and oil filter mount (additional filter for the unfiltered oilcooler pump oil I'm sending straight to the head). Finished wiring all the accessories. Discovered yesterday the DL-32 datalogger seems to work just fine - except it won't respond to the record commands! Got to get that sorted before hitting the strip - too much at risk to just wing it. Also got the chain and sprockets on. The TRAC offset c/s sprocket lined up nicely with the R1 rear once I flipped the rear sprocket. Who'd of thought a 140 link chain would have ended short!
Niggling little details remaining include setting up the clutch with the baseline tuneup, fab the exhaust mount, fab and mount a breather bottle, mount the shift/launch light, rebleed the brakes and clutch, sort out the data logger, gas it up, pre-oil the top end, and crank it! Of course, next weekend I'll probably have to be out of town... :dash1:
Looks great!
Going with a dragtec instead of the usual shinko? Be interested to hear how that works, some racers have said that it's really a question of which track you usually go to determining which hooks best. If you go with a shinko, skip to the usoft though, the base version takes a long long burnout or it's greasy.
Gotta love the look with the big arm on it and a sidewinder :nyam2:
Actually it's a Michelin Power Race (became the Power One) - about 18 months old or so. I had to buy it before I went to Iraq so I could roll it into a storage unit! I think I'll try the new Shinko drag radial after this is done.
It's setting a little high in these pics - I need to cut this sidestand even more (the foot is going to end up just below the tab for the spring!) - maybe I can use the piece I cut out to lengthen the side stand for the 89 so it doesn't lean as far! I should be able to drop the front end about and inch, the rear will depend on what it likes - try to balance linkage rate, swingarm angle, weight transfer, and clutch tuneup.
Forgot from the earlier post - had a big issue when I bolted in the clutch basket - the rear most rod bolt on the #4 rod (Carrillo with the bolt on bottom) hit the clutch basket. Ended up having to grind the bolt head for clearance. Not a lot of fun making that decision - or doing the work! Took three tries to get enough clearance!
Looks like on a later rebuild I may need to get the shock shortened so the link doesn't hang as low.
How's your FJ coming along? Got her fired up yet?
Awesome looking fj,cant wait to hear some track #'.s
Not yet, got busy with work and such. Soon, soon... need to fix an issue with the coils, and do some finish assembly stuff yet. Not nearly as pretty as yours, looks quite the streetbike... :)
It's a beast
Well, worked every available hour last week to get the bike finished up. Cranked it up for the first time on Wednesday! Cranked right up - VERY impressed with the power from the ballistic battery. This was kicking over the 1447cc high compression motor with the stock starter! Needed to wait until the top end was pre-oiled and the carbs set up for idle before swapping in the cashio super starter - would require too much extended cranking for the high power starter (and evidently the solenoid too -- see below!).
Fought some oil leaks - one at the oil filter case, and one at the top end oiler (intake cam of course - can't get to it with the engine in the frame!). Finally got those sorted (new o-ring on the filter case and made up braided lines for the top end oiler). Then had a leak at the exhaust cam -- and learned a critical lesson. I got hold of a couple of banjo bolts that had TAPERED threads - like what a pipe fitting would use. The issue is the first 4 threads or so are undersized -- perfect recipe to STRIP out the head (or caliper or master cylinder) that you're threading it into!!! You've been warned! :mad: Was able to save it by using a slightly longer banjo with normal threads!
Unfortunately that took up most of Saturday, so I got to the track a bit later than planned. Still enough time to get 3 or 4 passes in though.
Results -- DENIED! Evidently the stock stater solenoid (or relay if you prefer!) was not up to the task. It failed in the worst possible way - partially shorting out. It wouldn't release the starter, but it wouldn't pass it full power either - perfect way to burn up a starter, which I'm pretty sure it did. This happened after I went through tech, but before making a pass. I'm really hoping it didn't hurt the battery!
Looks like the smart move is to use an automotive starter solenoid (probably the "universal" Ford) and try it again next weekend!
Pure inspiration,i love this build! :yes:
Wow, this has been a lot more difficult that just turning the streetbike loose on the track! Amazing how many gremlins hide in a full up build. :ireful:
Went to the track Friday night (160 miles each way). Still no results to post, but progress has at least been made - bike actually moved under it's own power! I did get one "easy" launch - the rear suspension setup was WAY off - shock bottomed immediately and caused the front to come up pretty quick. Then, due to my own carelessness (didn't tighten the lock nuts when I modified the shift linkage), the shift rod came loose before the 1-2 shift. So no shift when I pushed the shift button. Luckily it was supposed to be an easy pass and I purposefully short shifted - don't think I banged it off the rev limiter (that can be pretty hard on the bearings).
Bigger issues was the return of oil leaks. Spent most of today getting rid of those. A spin on filter conversion from Randy helped with the first one. Replacing the shift rod seal helped the second. Hopefully replacing the generator o-ring got rid of the last one. Each time I got one leak sealed, I found another. Of course, they are all lined up vertically so it's a bit like trying to stop up a waterfall!
Tomorrow will be spent tracking down an intermittent electrical glitch that sometimes resets the datalogger (and possibly the ignition) when the revs come up.
Sucked to not get a clean run - there was a custom painted chromed out Busa with a wide tire kit running low 11's! That would have been ugly for him!
What intake manifolds did you use for the lectrons?
When the head was at Fast by Gast, they welded on aluminum spigots. The carbs attach with a short section of rubber hose.
You could do a similar arrangement without having to weld spigots on the head - just add flanges to the spigots and bolt them on the same as the stock rubber manifolds. I can take some detailed pictures if you want.
Chris
Thank you, I would be very interested.
Tim
What stage of headwork did you have done at FBG?
Ahh, teething problems... hopefully you're getting them all instead of me ;P Need some finishing touches to the oiling system on mine and some mild buttoning up and I'll be in the same boat :)
Get a 60 out of it, or did you have to bottle out when the front lifted?
Tim - it was done as an all-out drag race head. The pistons were machined based on molds taken from the head and cams were spe'c for it. I'll have to look at my notes, but I think the cams are .425 lift.
Andy - Yeah, hopefully the gremlins are mostly done for here - hope you don't have to deal with any. The part that sucks most is how far I have to travel to get to a track! If I get the electrics sorted today, I may try to take it out on one of the back roads here and make sure it shifts and all the electronics work right. Then I can focus on chassis and clutch setup next time at the track!
FINALLY! Got some passes in! 1 partial and 2 full passes.
Track had NO prep and had seen a lot of rain for last couple of weeks. (This is a track that is usually prepped well for the entire length according to the regulars there)
The rear suspension was also way off - way too soft with the shock bottoming out to begin with, so it was SPIN city, big time! (Even a jr. dragster out there was having issues with tire spin!)
All that said, I'm OK with the 10.73 - but that is WAY slow for this bike. It did mph at 142! So it's got a lot of potential! Should at least be a mid 9 second bike once it's sorted! 60's were 2.1's all night due to tire spin. With a decent track and the suspension even remotely in the ballpark, the 60's should at least be 1.5's and start working down from there.
The slip for the last pass was:
60' 2.1120
330' 5.1222
1/8 7.3112 @ 114.20
1/4 10.7320 @ 142.92
To show how bad that front half was, compare to my best slip from the streetbike with a 1314 from last summer:
60' 1.6670
330' 4.4890
1/8 6.8910 @ 101.94
1/4 10.7950 @ 124.67
Big props to Randy for the block off plate for the alternator - finally got the oil leak under control! Now I've got to remember to bring the charger to the track!
Pushed the RPM's a bit on the last pass and blew some oil out the breather. Have to see if there's a bigger issue or if I just need to improve on the breather system a bit (probably with the 85mm pistons!)
It's great to be back on the strip again! KOOKALOO!!!!!
Woohoo! That'll be right up there when you can actually use the gas in the first few gears... and the mph will gain too from better track prep and using more gas...
I'm happy with the potential it showed! Now I just have to get it there!
Dug into the clutch yesterday - looks like the steels and fibers were nearly dry and got pretty hot. Luckily they are still good to go - didn't glaze over or tear them up. Going to make a couple mods this week to improve oiling to the clutch. With the clutch being this dry, I'm sure it only made the spinning issue worse.
I'll be switching the rear sprocket from 45 to 43 - 144 or so is the max for the gearing on it now (144 @ 10,500). 43 tooth rear should give 150 @ 10,500 and allow for some overrev if needed.
Weather's looking good for Friday or Saturday - can't wait to try it again!
May want to try using the trick of tipping the bike over after your burnout and pumping the clutch a bit to get the plates oiled up some, also.
If you have your logger working decently, you should be able to plot rpm over time and get a rough approximation to how much thrust you've got in a given rpm within a single gear. Using that, it's possible to backtrack and figure approximate torque, and thus power, to find your power peak and work the shiftpoints out properly. Makes a big difference to have the motor still pulling the last 300' instead of spinning too much rpm! Sounds like you'll be in the ballpark with a 43 though, but if the motor is grunty enough you may want to pull it down even further. Remember that changing the gearing will also slightly change the force on the arm at launch, but it's not really a problem because you're not dialed in real finely yet.
I used to do that on the streetbike, but this one has a full basket and slider style top to it. All the oil has to come from the inside as best as I can tell...
I'm going to drill some more holes in the hub (180 out from the ones already there) and chamfer the backside holes like what was needed on the FZR1000's. The FJ hub design is very similar - just bigger!
I will try a 41 sprocket later to see how it likes it. After a 9+ month layoff, and riding much milder bikes previously, the way this thing pulls is nuts! I'l need a few more passes to get used to it and be able to feel better what it's really doing during a run vice just thinking over and over HOLY CRAP!
Hey, justbecame a member and saw your dragbike pics. Just wondering what windscreen you are running on your fairing? It seems to lay down more then the lockhart one I have. Thanks
Wow! It's been a while on this thread! I'm also surprised fj1314 wasn't taken yet :good:
Quick answer - I think it is a standard lockhart phillips screen. Longer answer - it may be a bit of an illusion -- one thing I did while building the bike was move the fairing forward about 2 inches to gain clearance above the front fender and gain some clearance for the clip on handle bars.
This project has been in storage for about two years during my trainups and deployment to Afghanistan. I've been back for a few weeks, but have been attending to a family medical emergency. But, the last couple days I've been spinning wrenches on the dragbike again and hope to get back to the strip again next month.
Also wonder - should this one be moved to the projects section?
Kookaloo! :drinks:
:good2: I've enjoyed this thread. I wondered what happened. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.
Short version - melted clutch pack followed by a one year deployment to Afghanistan (including several months of training before hand).
Longer version - big learning curve on the rear suspension (was WAY too soft = instantly bottoms and then spins like crazy), big learning curve on tuning the clutch, all the while chasing some electrical gremlins (data aquisition not getting good power, ignition cutting out occaisionally, lights going out in the middle of a run at night!).
I returned about 6 weeks early from the deployment due to a medical emergency with my wife. We're on a long road to recovery (physical and occupational rehab) but making good progress. Now that things have settled a bit, I've got a little time to start working on some projects again.
Got the dragbike back out and think I've found the bad electrical connection as well as replaced the finicky (but very capable) data aquisition system with something simpler. Have a new tune for the clutch -- going to a multistage lockup mode vice the previous slider mode. And a slight tweak on the rear suspension based on the notes from two years ago. Now I've got to try to find the time to get to the dragstrip before the end of the season...
Quote from: fj1289 on March 24, 2010, 10:33:35 PM
About the lockup – I talked to Orient Express about a month ago. Late last year they sold the last FJ lockup they had.
This thread was a hit on google and brought me to the site, loving your work man. I'm afraid it was me that got that last lock up but painfully slow project progress means it has yet to be used in anger. Should be up and running by christmas, 1500cc FJ turbo, injection with a tickle of gas for when it gets a little squirrely, sorry about the chassis.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/cabletietom/20120726_181142.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/cabletietom/KatbilletFaliconbasket.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/cabletietom/Katlockup.jpg)
awesome use of a katana , love those things, , first big bike I rode the day I got my full bike licence :yahoo:
Havoc - great build! Post up more pics and details in a project thread - looks like lots of good ideas to learn from! What front end are you using? (wondering because of the Yammi blue dot calipers)
I'll be evil and post up pics of the clutch I ended up with instead! Tim will machine more hint hint! Would be a great clutch especially trying to launch that turbo! That's the first blow thru setup I've seen on an FJ. Thinking you'll have more than just 230 with even 5 psi of boost!
With luck I'll get a chance to get out to the strip on Saturday and start over with the clutch and suspension tuning.
Finally made it out to the track!
Made the 3 1/2 drive (each way) on Saturday to get to Albuquerque dragway. First time to this track -- Good track - nicer than the others around here, but was hoping for something closer to Bandimere in Denver.
Great to be back at the track again! Felt very rusty after a two year layoff - but had a good outing all things considered. Made a little progress on the rear suspension setup and had another electrical gremlin that took a while to sort out. Only got three passes on - an 1/8 mile pass, an aborted pass (lost the ignition system after the launch due to electrical issues), and a 1/4 mile pass just before they closed the staging lanes.
Good news - no injuries to the bike or me! That was actually a fairly large concern after a two year layoff and knowing the rear suspension and clutch not sorted yet... There's also no such thing as "taking it easy" on the launch either - at "go time" it has to be WFO and throw the clutch away - or risk burning up the clutch pack. So in the end I'm pleased with the results -- have a good starting point for next season.
Bad news - still don't have a good suspension tune. Spun hard every launch - tightened up the adjustable linkage for each pass and added some preload - the shock bottomed on each launch causing it to spin hard until I backed off the throttle.
Made some progress - the short times (60' and 330') improved enough to match my best street bike times (so a lot of progress still needed!). Last run was the best 1/4 mile to date -- but still about a second off where it should be by my best guess.
Best pass this time out:
60' 1.689
330' 4.472
1/8 6.654 @ 113.51
1/4 10.142 @ 139.04
Previous best on the dragbike:
60' 1.905
330' 4.753
1/8 6.955 @ 112.00
1/4 10.504 @ 130.89
Best pass on the streetbike:
60' 1.667
330' 4.489
1/8 6.891 @ 101.94
1/4 10.795 @ 124.67
Density altitude was right ar 5500'. That puts the sea level corrected time is around a 9.5 @ 147
Did get some video this time out - will have to figure out how to post it. Waiting on the GoPro to make it back with the rest of my gear - will be fun to get on bike video next season.
I hear ya man! Sounds like some pretty decent numbers even without the setup issues. :good2:
KOokaloo!
Been a while...but here's a couple videos from the outing at the end of October. Disclaimer - amateur video operator! (And even more amerateur video uploader!)
Here's the first run -- my first run in nearly 2 years! I backed out after the 1/8 mile. You can see the tire spin start from the launch. The rear suspension is still set too soft and bottoms on the launch and causes the tire to spin.
(http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/fj1289/?action=view¤t=1struntrimmed.mp4)
Looks like the first video may have worked...
Here's the third run from the day. Adjusted the suspension link and shock preload to help stiffen the rear end - still spins through first gear, tried to feather the throttle to let it hook up.
(http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/fj1289/?action=view¤t=3rdruntrimmed_zpsd7ecc01c.mp4)
This is the adjustable suspension link. Now it is adjusted nearly to the end of the forward adjustment range (which stiffens the suspension). I'll order a stiffer spring this winter to help get the suspension dialed in and hopefully put the LinkPro toward the center of the adjustment range.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_27_3.jpeg)
Excellent. I have been looking forward to seeing it being used in anger. Sounds awesome (popcorn)
i love the sound of a FJ being ridden in anger! :good2:
Just my experience but i found raising the rear ride height helped tighten the rear suspension and reduce weight transfer for nice hard launches with the front wheel about 6 inches high and just a bit of wheelspin.
KOokaloo!
Second pass shows it more clearly. The tail drops and stops before the tire gives up. If you've got the shock adjustment range left, you can slow the compression damping some, but that's going to make it harder to stick right at the line.
I used to have a really good link that showed how to tweak the pivot changed how fast the rising rate changed, and per usual can't find it right now. >< Looks like you're on the right path though.
Yes - and that suspension action is a lot better than when I started! I'm using an ultra high tech bright yellow zip tie around the shock shaft to show how much travel it is using :good2:
I need to get the serial number off the shock so I can call Elka and get the spring specs. I'll try about 30% or so increase in spring rate to hopefully put the LinkPro back toward the middle of the adjustment range. Right now the shock is set so compression damping is about 1/3 of the range from the min setting, and the rebound is about 1/3 of the range from the max setting. A little more preload than I'd like on the spring since there is little static sag right now. The rear ride height was also increased a small amount on the last run (didn't reset rear ride height after adjusting the LinkPro forward after the first run). Would have been nice to get a couple more runs in that day...
The sound out of the open sidewinder definately makes people notice! It's just a little fat right now due to the altitude - I think it will sound a bit "sharper" after tweaking the Lectrons!
Looks like I'll be moving to Colorado this spring! (Just waiting on the formal job offer :yahoo:) Will be nice to make Denver my home track -- it is a really nice facillity. Even up there, I think this should go deep in the nines once I get it setup properly :diablo:
i'll be a very happy man if my bike is half as fast as yours! :wacko2:
Quote from: backstreetheros on January 26, 2013, 02:17:17 PM
i'll be a very happy man if my bike is half as fast as yours! :wacko2:
I think you will definately have a traction problem with that hard tail setup! But is will be great for leaving your mark on the street! :diablo: Keep up the good work on your build :hi:
Swapped out the shock spring today - original was a 650 lbs/in rate -- put in a 950 lbs/in spring. A 950 lbs/in spring is a WHOLE LOT more difficult to work with that a 650 lbs/in one.
Moved the adjustable link from the 2nd mark to the 14th mark (out of 16) and it still feels stiffer than the last setup (moving the link back softens the suspension). The change in spring rate seems to be a bit more than I intended, but think it will work...the timeslips will tell the tale (popcorn)
Here's my new suspension setup tool:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/4/171_06_02_13_8_42_59.jpeg)
Was able to pull the shock with the bike still on the sidestand! Add or remove air from the ball as needed to take the pressure off the shock - easy as pie!
Been a long time (much too long!) since I've updated this thread. Finally had the opportunity to get to he track last night for a Wednesday evening test and tune session at my new "home" track - Bandimere! I love this track - definitely a world class facility. It's a huge change from my first track - a little 1/8 mile strip in North Florida. Loved that track too (Emerald Coast Raceway) for all the people and everything I learned there, so I was bummed to find out last week Emerald Coast had closed.
I managed to squeeze out the time to FINALLY make the first outing of the season. I knew it would be less than ideal since I'd be getting a later start than I wanted. At 4:00 PM when the gate opened I was still at a local credit union trying to figure out how to get a cashiers check so we can close on our new house (today)! I've been living out of suitcases for nearly five months since retiring and taking a new job in Denver CO. Finally got our old house packed up and the family moved out into a small apartment a month ago. Since I don't have a garage yet, all things motorcycle are packed in my utility trailer - another less than ideal way to go to the track.
Finally got everything to the track and pulled into the pits around 6:45. Unload the trailer, get the dragbike out, grab all my gear, and get through tech pretty quickly. I'm in the staging lanes by 7:15 and hoping to get three runs in before closing at 9:00 PM. In the lanes I'm behind a beautiful 57 Chevy (2 door of course!) - full interior, perfect body work, looks like a show car with the exception of the "cheater" slicks , racing number and decals on the windows, and battery cutoff in the bumper.
The line is going slow. Seems the track is hooking real well (probably due to running the Mile High Nationals here last weekend). Problem is, a good hooking track reveals the weakness in streetcars. That results in broken parts and oil downs...and track clean ups and a long time to wait to make your runs.
Finally get to make my first pass. I'm lined up with a Colorado State Trooper (sponsors of the test and tune nights) squad car (driven by a cute female trooper!)
After a long wait, its my turn! Get the burnout done, make sure the bike is in first gear, and stage. Watch the lights come down, and next thing I'm thinking is that I'm really slow releasing the clutch and getting the throttle to WOT...and I know it won't be a good run.
Ran the full 1/4 mile (mostly because I had lined up against the State Trooper), roll out, and pick up the time slip. Don't even look at it as I ride off - then I see the scales. Stopped to weigh the bike - 695 pounds with me on board and three gallons of race gas. 460 without the rider. Good for the bike, but crap! No wonder the leathers are tight! Time to start running again...
As I leave the scales I notice the edges of the rear tire covered with oil! And then see the entire under tail coated with oil. No oil coming from the engine - whew! Pop the seat and see the oil has blown out the filter on top of the catch bottle on my breather setup.
Ride it back to the pits and pull the seat and side panels. Look at the clock - it's 8:40. Holy crap! Almost an hour and half for one run. Oh well, back to work - open the drain on the bottom of the catch bottle - nothing comes out? Pull the hose off the breather and oil runs out of there. Grab the catch bottle to remove the air filter and there's a puddle of oil where I laid down the bottle...huh? But I'd already opened the drain and got nothing...
Then it dawns on me -- the compressor drain fitting I used is meant to drain water from an air tank (and usually with some pressure in the tank). So, every time I've tried draining the catch bottle, the fitting has been too small to allow the oil out. Over time it has continued to fill with oil - which explains why it pushed so much out this run, and why the problem has been getting worse instead of better as the engine gets run in more. Glad to figure that one out - really don't want to tear down this engine already - don't think it's got 10 full passes on it yet!
Cleaned out the catch bottle and the rest of the oil on the bike. It's after 9:00 now and the track is closed.
Might as well look at the time slip now...yep, lost at least three tenths on the launch - forever on a dragstrip!
60' 1.908
330' 4.700
1/8 6.897 @ 112.85
1000' 8.796
1/4 10.418 @ 138.30
Should be easy to improve on those numbers next time out!
Awesome. (Great read)
Wait a minute, I thought you were running that as a slider clutch?
Yes, it was set up as a slider initially. For the last outing (Albuquerque last Oct) I converted to a multistage setup. Still has the base tune since I don't have the rear suspension well enough to even take that yet.
For those that don't keep up with the drag race scene - a little lesson in alternative clutches (starting with stock of course!). The stock FJ clutch operates like most motorcycle clutches - with the exception of using a single diagram spring vice multiple coil springs. The clutch friction plates are keyed to and turn with the clutch basket. The clutch basket is geared to the crankshaft - so the speed of the clutch basket varies directly with engine RPM. The steels are keyed to the inner clutch hub that is splined to the end of the input shaft of the transmission.
In normal use, the clutch spring pushes on the pressure plate and forces the friction plates and steel pates together, effectively connecting the crankshaft to the transmission (and the rear wheel).
When you pull the clutch lever, the clutch slave (working through the clutch rod - aka "kitty killer", the easily lost ball bearing, and the "top hat" clutch pusher) overcomes spring pressure to move the pressure plate away from the clutch pack and allows the frictional and steels to rotate independently - and engine power to be disconnected from the transmission (and rear wheel). Most clutches handle both these duties very well. The difficulty occurs when you WANT to slip the clutch - like getting moving from a standing start. The vast majority of motorcyclists have few demands if their clutch - release completely so it doesn't "creep", hold full power so it doesn't slip, and engage smoothly when starting off -- oh, and not build excessive muscles in their left forearm.
As you start demanding more from the clutch, it gets more difficult to meet all the demands. Really up the power of the engine and you have to use a lot more force to keep the clutch pack clamped together. Making all this force with just clutch springs gets to a point where it is difficult to smoothly control the clutch engagement.
Take this to the extreme - lots of power, lots of traction (or maybe not!), and a need to smoothly and quickly engage the clutch (and the need to do it all consistently!) - is where a lot of the art of drag racing lies.
An alternative way to provide a lot of clamping force at high power (high speeds generally and the associated higher RPMs) but still maintain a lighter and more controllable spring pressure is to use centrifugal force to lever more clamping force on the pressure plate. The first common means of accomplishing was the "single stage" lockup. This is a modified pressure plate that incorporates L shaped levers to add increasing force to the pressure plate as the pressure plate spins faster. Add more weight to the arms to get more clamping pressure to hold more power. Here's the picture of the last one available from Orient Express...
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/cabletietom/Katlockup.jpg)
As you add more weight to hold more power, the added force on the pressure plate comes in sooner and increases more rapidly. As you are trying to apply ever increasing amounts of power on the launch, control becomes more critical. Somewhere along the way, someone thought to use springs to "hold back" the centrifugal arms to delay when they begin to apply added force to the pressure plate. Depending on how the idea is implemented, it may be possible delay some arms, but allow others to add force sooner. This is known as a "multistage" clutch.
Up to this point, the discussion has been about "wheel driven" lock ups. The "wheel driven" label comes from the fact the pressure plate spins with the clutch hub that is splined to the trans shaft that is ultimately connected to the rear wheel. This works well until the rear wheel begins to spin....then, just when you need the clutch to slip a little more, you're getting more pressure added to the pressure plate locking the clutch up more and increasing wheel spin.
Another alternative clutch is the "slipper" clutch. The function is easiest described as a go kart or minibike clutch - twist the throttle and go! There are a set of springs that push the pressure plate AWAY from the clutch pack. The pressure plate and centrifugal lock up is attached to a "hat" that goes on top of or across the clutch basket. Now, the centrifugal force depends on engine RPM vice rear wheel speed. The result is more controllable application of added clutch force and more consistent launches. New problem now - clutch won't engage below the set launch RPM - so you really can't ride it back to the pits after a pass, so you need a tow vehicle and a crew, and racing just got a LOT more complicated and difficult as a result.
Yet another alternative is a hybrid of those two designs - the "engine driven" lockup. Using the same idea of the "hat" from the slider clutch, but with a "normal" pressure plate function (springs applying force to the clutch pack) you get a lockup that increases clutch force in relation to engine speed vice rear wheel speed - benefitting from increased controllability and consistency of the slider clutch, but with the ability to ride back "normally" to the pits after a pass. Now we can have the best of both worlds! Except...who makes something like that for an FJ?!!!
While I was building the dragbike I had a LOT of valuable or difficult to find parts stolen that were in a utility trailer. Included were two billet clutch baskets, two single stage lock ups, and two different coil spring conversions to go along with the lock ups. I started sourcing replacement parts - and I couldn't find a lock up anymore! -- seems there's some nutter in the UK that bought the last one to use in some derelict project -- something about an FJ engine, a Katana frame, turbo, EFI !! Very fucking cool project by the way! I looked at trying to adapt a Hayabusa multistage lockup to the FJ clutch hub and pressure plate. Looked into having a single stage lock up machined locally. Looked into adapting an entire Busa clutch assembly. I talked to Tim Hays about the feasibility of making a hybrid clutch using a Busa basket and frictions with an FJ hub and steels. All said and done it wasn't cheap, but it wasn't too expensive considering I'd have to buy everything new anyway - billet basket, coil spring conversion, and source a custom lock up from somewhere.
Here's what something like this looks like (WARNING! Metal porn follows!)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/4/171_13_12_12_1_06_11_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/4/171_13_12_12_1_06_13_3.jpeg)
NOTE - as pictured, you may be able to see how the springs are setup to hold the pressure plate away from the clutch pack. This was a picture of the initial install - as a slider clutch as Andy originally asked about!
Quote from: fj1289 on July 27, 2013, 11:50:05 PM
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/4/171_13_12_12_1_06_13_3.jpeg)
Chris,
I have to inquire...
How does the oil escape the center section of the clutch. I see the small holes around the ring of the pressure plate cover, but those seem kind of small to get all of the oil out.
Or dose this convert the clutch to a dry disc?
Randy - RPM
Can answer part of that. It's still a wet clutch, though I don't know what the oil path is on that one.
I can say that when the clutch is set in slider mode, it's usually pushed back after a run by a pit bike (harder than it looks to do, too!), and when you take things apart to adjust/inspect immediately after a run, the fibers come out shockingly dry. Not that it matters after the first few feet, as the clutch should remain fully locked, but it does take you aback when you first see it happen.
Quote from: racerrad8 on July 28, 2013, 02:56:37 PM
Chris,
I have to inquire...
How does the oil escape the center section of the clutch. I see the small holes around the ring of the pressure plate cover, but those seem kind of small to get all of the oil out.
Or dose this convert the clutch to a dry disc?
Randy - RPM
Randy,
As Andy replied, it is still a wet clutch. After the first outing, I found we needed to increase oiling to the clutch plates. I did two things. First added more oiling holes to the clutch hub 180 degrees out from where the stock ones were. Second, after talking through different options with Tim Hays, removed the o-ring from the clutch pusher.
In multistage mode,the pressure plate doesn't rest against the hat like it does in the picture (where it is in slider mode) which allows for more oil drainage. Also, around the perimeter of the pressure plate there are a series of scallops that allow for oil drainage (I never really thought before of why those scallops were cut in the pressure plate!)
When you get the clutch set up right, you can get an entire season out of a set of clutch plates. Right now I'm still using the base tune that was recommended for my setup while I concentrate on the suspension setup and, more importantly, rider skills!
Thank you Chris! What a bitchen write up...ok if I copy and paste it over to our clutch files?
Single vs multi stage vs lockup....good stuff.
Yea, that's some metal porn right there... :good2:
My understanding of clutches was expanded today.
However, I still didn't catch a lot of that. Deep. Someone obviously knows their shit.
When are you going to hit a nine already?!
Quote from: fintip on July 29, 2013, 12:58:51 AM
When are you going to hit a nine already?!
No doubt! That's my question!
Really expected to last time out -- but I didn't do my part. I've got to be better prepped when I go and be more focused while there. I will be really bummed if I go out next time, get in four passes or so, and don't make it.
No worries Pat, but it is probably more just a curiosity than useful for most on here. If you go to psychobike.com or dragbike.com, this is just an overview of Clutch 101!
As you get away from the stock clutches with heavy springs, you start moving away from the "rider" side of the game and start getting into the "tuner" side of it. The extreme is probably ProStreet these days. Although it takes a hell of a rider to take a production based bike on DOT tires and no wheely bars into the low 7s or high 6s at 190 - 200+ mph in the quarter mile! - it takes a hell of a tuner to make that much horsepower, make it controllable, and set up the clutch and suspension to deliver it all. I really like both parts of the game - which is a good thing since I'm not a good enough rider to have my own tuner, and not a good enough tuner to have my own rider - and I wouldn't want one either! :pardon:
Quote from: fj1289 on July 28, 2013, 10:39:35 PMAfter the first outing, I found we needed to increase oiling to the clutch plates. I did two things. First added more oiling holes to the clutch hub 180 degrees out from where the stock ones were. Second, after talking through different options with Tim Hays, removed the o-ring from the clutch pusher.
Chris, because oil is fed through the middle along the pushrod, you can also put a bevel along the length of the pushrod (obviously not so far to where you'll ruin the seal on the other side) by taking about .040" off, and that'll further increase the oil heading into the clutch assembly.
Quote
When you get the clutch set up right, you can get an entire season out of a set of clutch plates. Right now I'm still using the base tune that was recommended for my setup while I concentrate on the suspension setup and, more importantly, rider skills!
You can also burn up a new pack in a few runs if it's wrong :bomb:
I'll skip the obvious poke at rider skills when you're using a throw and go setup. :lol: I'll bet you could get deep into the 9's if you went with heavy static and rode it like a handclutch, but that's not going to be anything like as consistent as getting the lockup working right. Are you using a 2-step and a clutch switch?
Andy - we discussed machining a flat on the pushrod. Also, if that didn't allow enough oil flow, then EDM a hole through the center of the pusher along with an intersecting one to route oil through it. Then I looked again at the parts on the table and realized the easiest thing to do would be to remove the o-ring from the pusher. I need to get into the clutch before I go back again and make sure the mod is doing its job!
No, no 2-step. Had one in the pile of parts stolen in the trailer and have never replaced it. I have thought about getting one - but would put me into the electronics class at the tracks I've run. Also thought if I went that far I'd use a mico-lock to hold the clutch and launch off a button.
First time out in multistage mode I did a good job getting to WOT and snapping out the clutch by hand. But this last time I was way off my game - slow on both the throttle and clutch! I'll do a lot more "chair flying" of the launch before next time out!
I work with a fella in Finland on a small 1327 GS...no bars...foot shift etc etc...lock up...9.4... and it beats some turbo busa's just because turbo's suck off the line. I have an 1150 head here almost done to go into a 1500cc engine....mucho time and money in that. That kind of racing..IMO...is real.
Quote from: andyb on July 30, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
Are you using a 2-step and a clutch switch?
Dam you Andy! I looked at the rules here at Bandimere - 2-steps are allowed in the street bike class...now I've got a used DRL-300 that should be sitting in the mailbox waiting for me to get back from Toronto. Picking up this plane in Toronto has probably cost me 3 trips to the dragstrip now! :ireful: This plane has been delayed so many times for so many things it is ridiculous - mods behind schedule, routine maintenance taking much longer than planned, hidden airframe damage (and all the paperwork it takes to fly with that to a suitable repair facility!). And more paperwork fouled up today - may delay us until Wednesday (which of course is test and tune day...)
So I'm here typing here instead of running some new wires on the dragbike in my free time.
So, what's a 2-step? Basically a second rev limiter used to hold the engine at your chosen launch RPM while you hold the throttle WFO (hope everyone knows that acronym!). A few different ways to setup and use a 2-step. I am going to go with the clutch switch AndyB mentioned a few posts back.
Among the boxes of parts I had stolen were a couple Dyna 4000 ignition boxes and a two magnet trigger wheel and special coil pack to go with. The Dyna 4000 is a drag race specific ignition that includes a few good features including a "low limiter" (aka 2-step) as well as the usual "high limiter" for redline. The high limiter is always "active", but the low limiter is only active when the clutch switch is activated (clutch lever pulled in). The bad feature is it runs at a fixed ignition timing only -- no advance curve, no ignition retard for start. This is fine for a "classic" car tire, wheelie bar dragbike that uses an off board starter and start cart. We are talking 1 or 2 car batteries connected to a car starter with a frame or handlebars built onto it. It generally has an impact socket welded to the end to engage a nut welded to the end of the crankshaft of the dragbike. It'll spin the hell out of it and doesn't give a shit (like the honey badger) about the ignition timing being fixed at 35,40, or even 45 degrees. But once again, this is making racing a bit difficult without a dedicated crew to take to the track.
So, when I bought a new ignition for the dragbike, I was advised to go with a Dyna 2000 since I was building it to be self starting. The 2000 has been good in this application - especially with the Cashio modified starter. I literally just thumb the button and it spins this 1447 cc high compression engine fast enough you can hear it slow slightly to idle (about 1700 RPMs or so)! The 2000 was also very simple to wire to the Dyna Shift counter to provide adjustable ignition kill for the air shifter.
What the 2000 doesn't have is a 2-step. Dyna makes a rev limiter called the DRL-400 and includes both a low and high limiter. A bit of overkill with the 2000 since it already includes the high limiter. After doing a bit of research, found some people are using the DRL-300 as a 2-step. The 300 is meant to be used as a high limiter and is always active when installed as directed. One advantage it has is the limit is infinitely adjustable vice the 400 that has click style settings. The trick is to wire power to it through the clutch switch - then it is only active with the clutch lever pulled in. I'll add another toggle switch in line so I can turn off the 2-step for the burnout.
Next issue is to ensure the 2-step "releases" at the right time with relation to the clutch. If the clutch "hits" before the 2-step releases you can bog the engine. If the 2-step releases too much before the clutch "hits" you may drive they the clutch (a good way to burn up a clutch pack), spin, or stand it up. So you need to be able to fine tune where the clutch switch deactivates. After a good look at the lever and switch setup (I'm using a ZX-7R clutch master) I think I've found a straight forward way to make it adjustable. I've taken a fairly shallow button head screw ( like used for fairings) and have modified it a bit. Ground down the head a bit shallower and filled in the Phillips screw slots with JB Weld - this is what the plunger from the switch will ride against. Next I'll drill and tap the lever underneath for the modified button head screw. Turn it in to engage later, turn it out to engage sooner.
What are the advantages? Mostly consistency - especially for bracket racing. While its fun to build a bike to go fast at the strip, I also enjoy the challenge of competition. This has driven many of the decisions made for this build. Right now I'm trying to stage at 4500 RPM. The Lectron carbs are VERY touchy around there and it is very difficult to hold the RPMs steady there. Which means too much attention spent on holding launch RPMs and not enough spent on cutting a good light and launching the bike off the line properly.
Consistency should help both the bracket racing side of things as well as the tuning side. Much easier to isolate changes and make adjustments when the launches don't vary as much...
Pics to follow once I make it home and hopefully get a little free time finish setting up the dragbike.
Thanks Chris. Don't you guys just love this forum? Good stuff.
Shit this place is an education. You blokes make Sidney Poitier look amateur. ...Sir, would`nt that mean you risk a blow up if you missed a gear or stayed too long in one while using the DLR 300 as a 2-step? (just curious) - or are you using it in addition to the Dyna 2000-(Way out of my comfort zone here but encouraged by someone saying there was no such thing as a stupid question)
:scratch_one-s_head:
General - not a stupid question - if anything just means I didn't explain it fully!
The high limit on the Dyna 2000 stays fully functional.
For the DRL-300, it is wired up differently from the directions so it is only powered when the clutch lever is pulled in. Run +12 volts to one side of the clutch switch. The other side if the clutch switch goes to the red wire (power) of the DRL-300. The rest of the wiring is standard - black to ground, and a white and a blue wire go to the ( - ) terminal of each coil. The DRL-300 senses the RPMs from the wires on the coil ( - ) terminals. Those same wires are used to ground out the coils to keep them from firing above the set RPM limit. When you let go of the clutch lever, the clutch switch opens and kills power to DRL-300 and the engine is free to rev (up to the rev limit in the Dyna 2000!)
Little fly in the ointment though is the rev range of the DRL-300 -- it's listed as 6,000 - 12,000 RPM. A bit high for my needs! Luckily there are dip switches to set the number of pulses for every 2 revs - 4 pulses for the wasted spark arrangement of our FJs (and still retained by the Dyna 2000 box). By setting it for 2 pulses instead, the DRL will limit at half the normal range -- 3,000 - 6,000 RPM -- perfect! Surprisingly, the Dyna instructions go into great detail about changing the rev range this way.
Just gotta get it wired in and give it a go on the track!
Yup! So much fun!
Some cars actually have a 2step function built in, though I can't think of what they are. GM's of the type you'd rent with a slushbox. Read something about someone bracket racing a rented Buick, so there's that.
The usual operation is that you've got a high limiter that is always on, so you don't overrev the motor on the throttle, for an FJ this would be in the 10k range. A 2step is activated when you pull the clutch in, so now you have a 4250rpm redline. Pull the lever in, get into the staging beams, hold the gas WOT and the bike will stutter and misfire while staying right at 4250rpm. When you throw the clutch away, the redline becomes 10k or whatever again. Pretty silly for a streetbike, but a slider clutch operates on engine rpm. When done right, the engine picks up a few revs and the clutch bangs in at 4500, and you go vroom with much scootitude. Too large of a rpm gap between clutch engagement and the staged rpm gives the engine more inertia than the chassis will hold, and you overpower the tire (spin) or overpower the chassis (wheelstand). Too small of a gap means that the bike tries to creep forward while on the stutter box, burning the clutch slightly and giving you glazing issues, as well as not reacting properly.
2steps aren't allowed in the street classes that I run. I've thought of a mechanical way to make it happen if you use the clutch as a lockup and have a cable actuated slave, which would be legal as it's not a throttle stop nor an electronic limit, but I don't have a bike that I could try it out on.
Andy - are you talking about a mechanical throttle stop activated by the clutch lever? Haven't thought about doing it that way!
Reminds me of a guy on dragbike.com that came up with a mechanical way to release his clutch with his thumb while keeping his grip on the bar. Never did figure out how to do hat one either
I always wondered about...on a hydraulic clutch, using a line lock, similar to what the cars use on their front wheels, that prevents them from rolling out of the staging lights. Pull the clutch lever in, put your finger or thumb, on the line lock button while releasing the clutch lever, hold the button in until it's time to launch.
Pat - that has been done. I also figured if I ever went with a 2-step I'd add that at the same time. Guess I figured wrong because I'm going to try the 2-step with the lever.
I read a pretty in depth discussion on dragbike.com a while back about different ways to control the clutch release for consistency -- I think a couple of racers were index racers (top gas) and the others were "high end" bracket racers (delay boxes, down track throttle stops, etc). Both sets of racers that live and die by consistency tighter than .05 seconds per run. They were discussing alternatives to air clutches -- essentially the clutch lever is controlled by an air cylinder with swappable or adjustable air bleeds. And yes,this is a great big monstrosity that takes up most of the left handlebar! The discussion turned to using line locks on hydraulic clutches. This also include talk of using flow restrictors to control the release rate of the clutch.
Another part of launching "on the button" some people forget is you have for to be ready to GO from the very moment you push that button and open the throttle. It only take a switch to fail, a wire to vibrate loose or any thing else and the bike will go NOW! Get caught unprepared for that and you've got a good chance of hurting yourself and others...
I may go to a line lock in the future, especially if I get to run the whole season and it proves to be a good deal more consistent. Until then, I've already got a steep enough learning curve to climb!
Chris, rather than a throttle stop of mechanical form, a clutch release triggered from a (near-)WOT condition.
I thought line locks had been illegal on bikes for years now? There's not much reason to using them if you can set a slider up properly and keep in spec on the setup (airgap and such will change as they wear the plates), and a multistage gives you that much more control if you want to go that route, though those seem to require more maintenance.
If it's a dedicated dragbike, bars or not, just go full slider and use the clutch handle to control the 2step. Make the switch adjustable for where in the travel it triggers, and you can dial in your r/t appropriately.
Getting the suspension right actually helps as well, for repeatability and reaction time. Did a shock swap (moderately heavier valving and 10% more spring rate) on the ZX9. Went to the track and was getting .045 lights on a pro tree. Couldn't ride to save my life, but damnit I could get the lights!
Andy - suspension has been my kryptonite so far...really lack of time has been. I'm itching to get a bit of time to get the bike ready for the strip again -- really gunning for Sept 4 TNT, and the 10th for "race car" test night. There, I've done it, thrown a date out in public to hold it over my head!
This next week I've got to finish wiring up the 2-step and modifying the clutch lever to make it adjustable. Next up is clutch inspection and oil and filter change. Then take a WAG at tweaking suspension settings based on notes and the spring change. And maybe figure out how to attach the GoPro -- initial thought is on the swingarm to watch rear suspension (and maybe rear tire too).
In the meantime, I'm sitting in a hangar in Toronto Canada sweating my balls off waiting for yet one more thing that should have been taken care of already. Seems they are a little reluctant to get the plane out of the hangar and put $4-5,000 more fuel on it until they receive final payment for the plane! :dash2:
Finally got all the paperwork in place last night from both US and Canadian authorities to allow us to fly this thing into the US for further work (and it needs a lot! Probably the -8 equivalent of "Rusty Helga"... :shok:
Well, looks like I got everything completed with a couple days to spare!
Changed the oil and filter - made sure not to overfill. Right now at the top full line - but haven't cranked the engine yet - so need to make sure it doesn't go down too far.
Inspected the clutch - all the plates looked good and were wet with oil. Looks like the clutch oiling mods are doing their job. Rechecked the stack height and air gap. Stack height is 1.648". (That's 9 thin Busa frictions, 7 FJ steels, and 1 thin Barnett steel). The air gap was .082. Minimum for the way the clutch is set up now is .08, but .10 is better. So I pulled the clutch hub and measured the shim stack behind the hub -- .049". Removed the thickest shim (.02") and put it all back together. The air gap is now .102". Good starting point for now.
Pic showing the shims.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/171_02_09_13_9_41_02.jpeg)
In process of measuring air gap. Air gap is the distance from the top of the clutch pack to the top of the basket.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/171_02_09_13_9_41_47.jpeg)
The clutch still drags a bit when in gear, lever pulled and engine not running -- but doesn't "pull" when the engine is running until the RPMs come up enough to start bringing in he lockup arms. Increasing the air gap will lighten up the static a bit and delay the the lockup slightly. This will soften the hit slightly and "should" make it easier to get the rear suspension dialed in better. Of course once the suspension is hooking up, time to tighten up the clutch and get it out of the hole harder!
The other set of mods were electrical -- new shift light module and the 2-step.
Looks like a Dyna catalog
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/171_02_09_13_5_35_13.jpeg)
Replaced the Raptor dual mode shift light with the Dyna shift minder and shift light. The Raptor was nice because it included a staging light as well as a shift light. It has two drawbacks though - the engine is so "twitchy" at launch RPM you spend way too much time focusing in the launch light and not enough on the tree! The other is a nine step process to reprogram every setting in the light when you just need to adjust one setting (like launch RPM or shift point). The new light is easily adjusted using dip switches but only functions as a shift light (but losing the launch light function is no big deal with the 2-step installed). The 2-step installed easily enough - just needs to be tested.
Made the clutch switch activation point adjustable by drilling and tapping the "paddle" on the lever that pushes the plunger for the clutch switch. I ground the head down a bit shallower and filled the slots with JB Weld. Then cut a slot on the end of the threads to turn the "adjustor". Right now turned all the way in seems to be close. May need to be adjusted out slightly - will have to watch the RPMs on launch to determine which way to adjust - if it bogs on launch, need to adjust in to turn off the 2-step sooner. If the RPMs flash up initially, need to adjust out to turn off the 2-step later. Sounds simple enough in theory...time to see how it works in the real world!
While digging out my spare clutch parts, I found a few "offerings to the god of speed".
Typical burnt plates:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/171_02_09_13_9_05_40.jpeg)
Scarred up steel -- how do you do that?
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/171_02_09_13_9_07_41.jpeg)
Utterly destroyed friction...that's how!
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/171_02_09_13_9_09_17.jpeg)
Jeez man, are you driving it back in slider mode or something?
Quote from: andyb on September 03, 2013, 02:02:16 AM
Jeez man, are you driving it back in slider mode or something?
I had been doing that - using the "hit & coast" technique. It worked OK, but speeds were a little high through the pits. This however was a much dumber incident...
Just made a run at night at the strip at Hobbs, NM - an old WWII airfield they've turned into a dragstrip. Old pavement, lots of tar snakes, poor lighting. Anyway, about 1000' down I lose the lights on the bike so roll out and start slowing down. I ended up taking an early turnoff that went nowhere - dead ended in a buch of waist deep weeds. Stopped quickly! Then turned the bike around and twice tried to get rolling --- in 5th! :dash1: one moment of inattention cost an entire clutch pack. :mad:
Amazing what a 5krpm launch will do to a clutch when you're in top gear. :)
UUUUUUHHHHG!!!
Last night was return of the electrical gremlins. Total electrical failure...
Test N Tune was much better than last go around. Last time they were running from 2 lanes while 4 other lanes would be full. Last night they never had more than 2 lanes half full - great chance to get several runs and do some tuning.
Got thru tech fine. Rode back to my pit space to test and adjust the two step. Worked well - needed to tweak the RPM setting down slightly.
Geared up and rode to the staging lanes. Kill the motor while I wait -- maybe 6 or 7 cars back. Talk a moment with the guy behind me running a Harley sportster with a slick and bars (and uses an off board starter). Roll on up until I'm second in line and fire it up. Go through the burnout and staging drill in my mind. Get waived into the burnout box, start moving and the bike dies. Completely. No electrical power to anything. Cycle the main toggle switch. Nothing. Unplug and replug the tether kill switch. Nothing. Push it back to the pits (up hill of course!) and take off the seat and left side panel. Get out the volt meter. Battery is pretty much dead - about 10 volts if I recall. Hook up the charger and wait. About 25 minutes later its reading 13.1 volts -- let's go!
Fires right up and back down the staging lanes again. Pretty much same drill as before. Get waived into the starter box, roll up (going around the water) and shift into 2nd, line up, and wait to be signaled to burn out. On the front brake, "set" the front end, bring the revs up, drop the clutch and lean to the right for 2 counts, lean left for 2 counts, on top of the tire for 2 counts and roll it out. Shift back to 1st! flip the toggle switch for the 2 step, push forward to the pre-stage beam, roll the throttle to the two step at 4500rpm and continue to WOT. Push into the stage beam, and throw the clutch away on the third yellow! Engine RPMs sound good on the launch - RPMs don't "flash" up and doesn't bog - launch feels a little lazy and suddenly falls on its face about 20 feet out. Total electrical failure again! Coast to the outside of the lane, flip the main switch off - and start pushing. It is dark and I have no tail light - luckily the track officials know I'm broken and send the ATV with the coolest pusher attachment I've ever seen. A lot better than not noticing you haven't cleared and sending two cars down the track instead! To be honest, not really a danger at this track as well run as it is -- but I've been on a couple smaller tracks where that was a real possibility.
Get back to the pits and do some more troubleshooting/fix something NOW because they are closing the staging lanes in a few minutes. Of course back in the pits the power switches on again. Figure the main switch must be to blame (burned or loose contacts maybe) and swap it out - while throwing a quick charge at the battery to keep it topped off.
Make it to the staging lanes before they close. This time it dies just after the burnout. ATV push again and that's it for the night.
I think about it on the drive home and figure the little 8 cell lithium battery is just not holding a charge anymore. It is 4 years old now and has had a fairly hard life. It gets used to start a high compression 1447cc engine, and powers a wideband O2, the Dyna 2000 ignition, tail lights, air shifter, data logger, shift light, and now 2 step -- with a total loss electrical system. Then it gets hit every 2 or 3 runs with a 6 amp charger. And has sat for nearly a year on two occasions. Wouldn't surprise me if it was done.
Started looking for batteries last night and more this morning. Came across new charging instructions for the LiPO batteries. The old instructions said how long to charge it for at a certain number of amps. I'd normally charge for about half the "amp-minutes" called for assuming the battery was only about half discharged. Now the new instructions call for charging up to 14.2 - 14.4 volts! Maybe it wasn't fully charged? But will it still carry the load it should? Maybe Batteries Plus can test one of these things.
Either way, I think I've decide to try adding a second battery to the system and splitting the system between the two. Starting and wideband O2 (and maybe head & tail lights) on one battery. And ignition, shifter, shift light, 2 step, etc on the second.
I was able to pull the data log off the WEGO III this morning - looks like the clutch lever switch is pretty much where it needs to be for the 2 step release point. At least one usable piece of info from last night.
Do the rules require a headlight? If so, do they require a full-power light, or could you get away with an 1156, for example? I know most tracks require a tail light when running at night....
Rich,
Don't know if they require a headlight here - very well lit. The last time I lined up I didn't have it on...
But have been to some places that you NEEDED one! I think I have a 35 watt bulb in now. A low watt bulb is a good idea.
I'm running 2 tail light bulbs now - figured if one burned out I'd still be good to go.
Did some more troubleshooting last night. The little battery took a full charge and seems to be holding it -- I may not have had it charged up enough. Found a charge -vs - capacity chart for LiPO batteries; evidently 13.1 volts is only 40% charged! Didn't know that before.
I've also found the power at my main switch is not stable -- sometimes reads battery voltage, sometimes none, sometimes jumping all over the place between maybe 3 and 11 volts :unknown:
Time to redo some of the electrics...again. Going to simplify a little and set it up to be split between two batteries later on. Plan to add a larger shorai battery from RPM. Old battery will get starter, lights, and 2 step. New battery will get everything else. Each battery will operate through its own relay and fuse - should be able to get several runs between recharging. If one fails, simply jumper between the relays to power everything from one battery. That's my theory anyway.
Hope to have the basics sorted for Tuesday nights "race car" (running slicks) test and tune (street tires quicker than 11.00 allowed too). Then the following Sunday is a bike only event - plan to enter the streetbike class. Also need to get my physical done so WHEN I break into the nines, I can get my license runs done and not be asked to slow down or leave!
Quote from: fj1289 on September 06, 2013, 02:25:59 PM
I'm running 2 tail light bulbs now - figured if one burned out I'd still be good to go.
You need to get some LED tail light bulbs too since they use even less power; LED tail/brake light bulb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/S25-1157-1206-22-SMD-Warm-White-LED-Car-Stop-Tail-Turn-Brake-Light-Lamp-Bulb-GE-/121171071476?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item1c365bd1f4)
I do not recommend them for a street bike. They do not reflect enough light to illuminate the complete light housing to allow the brake light to function properly.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 06, 2013, 02:42:23 PM
I do not recommend them for a street bike. They do not reflect enough light to illuminate the complete light housing to allow the brake light to function properly.
Randy - RPM
Randy, you are right about the poor illumination from the LED globes you mentioned.
However these cree tower globes (yes, they fit ) have outstanding performance in plate, stop and brake light illumination from all angles. I have these very globes in mine. The brilliance of the number plate almost requiring eye protection.
I also have a brake light modulator that flashes a dozen or so times rapidly when the brakes are first applied then settles into a solid bright light.
I am told my rear lights, including brake, are a standout amongst other traffic.
Even conventional LED's with lights on the sides and top do not offer much better performance, but these cree units definitely do.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5460/9690846616_1ea29d3633_b.jpg)
Noel
Further to my previous post, do not confuse this type of LED with the Cree globes, they are not much better than standard globes.
(http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/1307574248444040_4.jpg)
Noel
Noel,
Can you provide a URL for the supplier of these lights? That's an excellent price for a pair of cree LED globes.
Arnie
Quote from: ribbert on September 06, 2013, 07:51:06 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 06, 2013, 02:42:23 PM
I do not recommend them for a street bike. They do not reflect enough light to illuminate the complete light housing to allow the brake light to function properly.
Randy - RPM
Randy, you are right about the poor illumination from the LED globes you mentioned.
However these cree tower globes (yes, they fit ) have outstanding performance in plate, stop and brake light illumination from all angles. I have these very globes in mine. The brilliance of the number plate almost requiring eye protection.
I also have a brake light modulator that flashes a dozen or so times rapidly when the brakes are first applied then settles into a solid bright light.
I am told my rear lights, including brake, are a standout amongst other traffic.
Even conventional LED's with lights on the sides and top do not offer much better performance, but these cree units definitely do.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5460/9690846616_1ea29d3633_b.jpg)
Noel
Quote from: Arnie on September 06, 2013, 08:36:19 PM
Noel,
Can you provide a URL for the supplier of these lights? That's an excellent price for a pair of cree LED globes.
Arnie
1157 BAY15D 64 LED 1206 SMD 2057 Car Brake Tail Stop Turn Light Bulb Lamp White (http://www.ebay.com/itm/380509329417?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D380509329417%26_rdc%3D1)
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy :-)
Yes, LED lights will be a future "upgrade". Also need to find a smaller wattage headlight bulb too.
Think I've got the electrics sorted again.
I went two directions at once - like I'm prone to do. Started with sketching a new wiring diagram with the intent of splitting the electrical system over two batteries. At the same time started troubleshooting what I already had. Battery seems to be good - as long as you fully charge it! Noticed last night as I started tracing the wiring runs that even when I had "good" power at the main switch it was still .4 or .5 volts less than battery voltage. So now I assumed the issue was with the wiring going to he main switch and could rule out an error with the install of the new shift light and 2 step. The voltage would still sporadically drop to 6 or 7 volts at the switch or just drop off to zero. Finally back tracked to an old spade connector I originally used to provide a quick way to remove battery power from the switch gear area (since the battery itself is tucked up under the steering neck where the factory mounted the coils).
Cut the connector off the feed wire. Full battery voltage at the wire! Replaced the spade connector with a new butt connector - full battery power to the main switch!
This evening I'll get everything put back together and loaded into the trailer -- ready to try again tomorrow night.
Hopefully can make it off of work in time today to get a physical done for the NHRA competition license I'll need when I get into the 9's.
Chris, you are running a total loss system (all battery) with your alternator blanked off, correct?
Exactly Pat. The battery is an early version of the Ballistic LiPO battery - an 8 cell. Will probably add another 8 or 12 cell this winter.
I also may add the alternator back in someday, but for now keeping it simple. Originally removed the alt to help seal up an oil leak that was giving me issues.
Electrics have been a recurring issue for me. So far all have traced back to poorly executed connections or bad terminals -- all from my original buildup of the wiring harness. I think the only remaining connector from the original is a spade connector setup going to the headlight so I can quickly power the high beam if I lose the low. If the weather and work allows, will find out if all the electrical gremlins have been evicted tomorrow night.
Well, the weather hasn't cooperated with my plans very well this week...anyone seen a guy with a lot of animals building a large wooden boat?!
And looks like work is going to keep me away for a week or two.
The battery has been holding its charge well and there is still full power to the main switch -- should be good to go when I do get a chance to hit the strip again. Need to lean the needles a little on the Lectron carbs, but that is all there is left to do!
Quote from: fj1289 on September 13, 2013, 08:39:52 AM
Well, the weather hasn't cooperated with my plans very well this week...anyone seen a guy with a lot of animals building a large wooden boat?!
And looks like work is going to keep me away for a week or two.
I should say so...
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb37/campsimonette/rainraingoaway_zps789f87a0.jpg) (http://s208.photobucket.com/user/campsimonette/media/rainraingoaway_zps789f87a0.jpg.html)
Made it to the track again on Sunday - last test session of the year at Bandimere.
This year family and work demands have played hell every time I've planned to get to the track. Racing is done for the year at Bandimere - Saturday and Sunday were day long test sessions to close out the season. This time it was work that tried to cancel it -- a last minute tasking to ferry an airplane to Florida for testing. Out Saturday and return on a commercial flight on Sunday. You have got to be f'ing me! Found an early flight - had to get up at 3 am to catch an early flight to make the last half of the final test session on Sunday -- hoping the whole way back weather holds out. I've already loaded the trailer and left it hooked up to the Suburban at work when I flew out Saturday morning - plan to head straight for the track when I get back Sunday.
Trip goes well and I get back as planned - make it to the track about half way through the test session. Get unloaded and check things over - CO2 bottle for the shifter is empty. Crap! Left the spare bottle in the garage. Luckily my wife and in-laws are coming to watch - spare bottle will be here in an hour. In the mean time try to reconfigure the shifter system to fill it up with the air compressor. Short story - didn't work well. 1st run was a write off as a result. After the run I also realize I've left the laptop at home so I can't download the datalog from the WEGO III. Not a huge deal - the carb changes I made should still be pretty conservative and the 2 - step release point is at least in the ballpark (engine doesn't bog and the RPMs don't "flash" when I release the clutch).
Weather is borderline. Clouds getting lower and temps getting cooler. Get the full CO2 bottle in time for the second run and the shifter is good to go. Get in line and there are a couple very light sprinkles. Runs stop while the track officials assess the track conditions. After 20 minutes or so they are able to resume running.
2nd run goes better than the first - except my face shield fogs up so bad I have problems seeing the tree and the track. Good news is the new shock spring is doing its job - shock doesn't bottom and the tire stays planted. Bad news is the run is slower than expected - especially the 60':
60' 1.903
330' 4.609
1/8 6.793 at 112.44 mph
1/4 10.409 at 126.38 mph
The 1/4 mile time & speed are a bit slow because I rolled out early -- with the fogged up shield I had trouble making out the end of the track!
As I roll back to he pits, I hear the PA. Seems they are getting ready to shut down due to weather - calling for anyone that hasn't made three runs to line up before they close. Crap!
Not much time to sort out why the run is so slow.
Quickly check the shock travel - used about half. So I set the adjustable link one mark softer. Leave the shock alone. Figure the shock and tire are holding the launch so I'll turn up the 2-step rpm a little. The adjustment is made by turning a potentiometer at the end of the box - not a precise adjustment and no time to check the change. Roll right to the end of the staging lane, get my run card punched for the third (and final) time for the day and take my lane.
The run is pretty uneventful - get the ticket and it is a little better than the previous:
60' 1.876
330' 4.524
1/8 6.702 at 112.81 mph
1/4 10.267 at 135.86 mph
Still scratching my head on the 60' times. The 2 - step rpm was a little higher this time, but not much (definitely didn't set it high enough!). Trying to figure out why the previous 60' times were better with uncontrolled wheel spin and having to feather the throttle? Seems it would be quicker getting good traction off the line and being able to keep the throttle pinned. The clutch tune should be somewhat conservative, but I still expected at least a 1.5 60' out of it! For sure not 1.9 and 1.8...
One step forward, 2 steps back ........ guess that's racing
More to follow after I look at the datalogs and some video of the runs.
Quote from: fj1289 on October 22, 2013, 12:19:58 PM
Made it to the track again on Sunday - last test session of the year at Bandimere.
This year family and work demands have played hell every time I've planned to get to the track. Racing is done for the year at Bandimere - Saturday and Sunday were day long test sessions to close out the season. This time it was work that tried to cancel it -- a last minute tasking to ferry an airplane to Florida for testing. Out Saturday and return on a commercial flight on Sunday. You have got to be f'ing me! Found an early flight - had to get up at 3 am to catch an early flight to make the last half of the final test session on Sunday -- hoping the whole way back weather holds out. I've already loaded the trailer and left it hooked up to the Suburban at work when I flew out Saturday morning - plan to head straight for the track when I get back Sunday.
Trip goes well and I get back as planned - make it to the track about half way through the test session. Get unloaded and check things over - CO2 bottle for the shifter is empty. Crap! Left the spare bottle in the garage. Luckily my wife and in-laws are coming to watch - spare bottle will be here in an hour. In the mean time try to reconfigure the shifter system to fill it up with the air compressor. Short story - didn't work well. 1st run was a write off as a result. After the run I also realize I've left the laptop at home so I can't download the datalog from the WEGO III. Not a huge deal - the carb changes I made should still be pretty conservative and the 2 - step release point is at least in the ballpark (engine doesn't bog and the RPMs don't "flash" when I release the clutch).
2nd run goes better than the first - except my face shield fogs up so bad I have problems seeing the tree and the track. Good news is the new shock spring is doing its job - shock doesn't bottom and the tire stays planted. Bad news is the run is slower than expected - especially the 60':
60' 1.903
330' 4.609
1/8 6.793 at 112.44 mph
1/4 10.409 at 126.38 mph
The 1/4 mile time & speed are a bit slow because I rolled out early -- with the fogged up shield I had trouble making out the end of the track!
Not much time to sort out why the run is so slow.
Quickly check the shock travel - used about half. So I set the adjustable link one mark softer. Leave the shock alone. Figure the shock and tire are holding the launch so I'll turn up the 2-step rpm a little. The adjustment is made by turning a potentiometer at the end of the box - not a precise adjustment and no time to check the change. Roll right to the end of the staging lane, get my run card punched for the third (and final) time for the day and take my lane.
The run is pretty uneventful - get the ticket and it is a little better than the previous:
60' 1.876
330' 4.524
1/8 6.702 at 112.81 mph
1/4 10.267 at 135.86 mph
Still scratching my head on the 60' times. The 2 - step rpm was a little higher this time, but not much (definitely didn't set it high enough!). Trying to figure out why the previous 60' times were better with uncontrolled wheel spin and having to feather the throttle? Seems it would be quicker getting good traction off the line and being able to keep the throttle pinned. The clutch tune should be somewhat conservative, but I still expected at least a 1.5 60' out of it! For sure not 1.9 and 1.8...
One step forward, 2 steps back ........ guess that's racing
This stuff is really insightfull for me. :good: Hadn`t realised the intricate dedication, skill (and balls!) required for your sport. ..I guess I should be more accepting of people with different interests to me. Many seem ta watch Grit Iron, Baseball, Cricket and even Hockey!...I`m sure there must be a skill in there that makes people sit mesmerised for an hour or two...some even appear to be endowed with balls...but I don`t think I`ll ever have what they`re having...(not that there`s anything wrong with that!)...unless I`m watching real footie or there`s the taming of a motor involved. :drinks:
Downloaded the datalogs from the WEGO III. The WEGO III is primarily a wideband O2 sensor controller that also has a rudimentary datalogging capability. It can log 3 channels of data - AFR, rpm, plus a third 0-5 volt signal. Right now i am only logging two channels. Typically the third input would be TPS (throttle position sensor) or MAP (manifold air pressure). I'd like to record rear wheel speed, but my setup (hall effect sensor and rare earth magnets epoxied to rear brake rotor bolts) is not compatible with this logger. I made an attempt to build a frequency to voltage converter, but don't think the hall signal was compatible. I may revisit this project over the winter.
Here is the log from the second run:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_23_10_13_11_38_38.jpeg)
Redline is RPM, green is AFR.
From the left you can see the engine on the 2-step about 4700 RPM. The AFR is off scale high due to the ignition cuts to hold the engine at the launch RPM .
--- quick sidebar on O2 sensors --- O2 sensors only do what their name implies - they sense O2 in the exhaust stream. That's it, nothing more. If the O2 sensor says there is a lot of O2 in the exhaust, it's up to you to figure out why. In this case, an ignition misfire will make the O2 show a lean condition because there is a bunch of unburned O2 in the exhaust. Doesn't matter how much fuel is in there with it - the O2 sensor doesn't detect fuel -- only O2. An exhaust leak can also throw things off. The one that gets people though is when you are so rich on the mixture that you are fouling plugs and getting a misfire -- the O2 will show you as lean!
You can see a couple things in the log where I release the clutch and the 2-step is deactivated - the RPMs jump about 200 RPM before the clutch pulls it back down and you see the AFR drop rapidly since the 2-step is no longer cutting the spark to keep the engine at the set RPMs.
Back to the logs - you can see the clutch slip as the engine RPMs climb slowly and then about 1.8 seconds into the run starts accelerating quicker as the RPM line gets steeper until the shift to second. Can't really tell what the clutch is doing without comparing it to wheel speed, but the bike seems to be lazy during that first 60 feet or so. Since the RPMs aren't spiking up toward redline and then "bogging" back down, I don't think the clutch is slipping too much. I think I'm simply not throwing enough power at it off the line. I need to bump up the 2-step RPMs 500 at a time until it gets slower/ spins/wheelies - and then figure out how to solve that...
For the third run I increased the 2-step RPM maybe 200 RPM (not enough I'd say):
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_23_10_13_11_41_20.jpeg)
The 60' was marginally better and the bike pulled out of the "lazy" acceleration a tenth or two quicker as reflected in all the split times. Also looks like I may have kissed the rev limiter at the top of 1st gear the way the line flattens out at the top of first.
It appears on all the runs when the bike pulls out of the "lazy" area around 6700 RPMs or so. I'm thinking 6000 or 6500 may be the sweet spot for the 2-step RPM. Of course, adjusting the clutch or suspension tunes may move that around a bit...
This may also explain the quicker 60' with the previous wheelspin -- the engine was able to get into higher RPM sooner, but having to feather the throttle to gain traction kills the 330' time.
Looking back at the previous runs, the bike did pick up a little better than a tenth from the 60' to 330' points which I was expecting to see. Now I just have to get the 60' down where it should be - especially with a 66" wheelbase!
Quote from: The General on October 22, 2013, 05:25:13 PM
...unless I`m watching real footie or there`s the taming of a motor involved. :drinks:
General - does that also include rugby?!
Sounds like you're finally starting the arduous process of dialing it in!
I don't need to tell you that the 60 has a lot of room to improve. So does the 330, and the rest of the incrementals, but half track mph looks quite stout! Incremental times from 330-1000 should look really, really good. Your 60-330 time on the better run is in the 2.6 range, so the bike is definitely pulling hard once the arms come in. 2.1 from 330-660 is really good as well, that's a hell of a motor.
Looks to me like you need a bit more static in the clutch, the motor is driving through it a bit more than I'd like to see. If you shim the springs a bit, it's also going to push the shock some, so you may end up wanting to go back to stiffer, where it was. That'll put the power down sooner, and improve the 60, if you can stay hooked. The laziness under 6700 revs looks like it's just waiting for the arms to come in and lock things up. I wouldn't worry it unless you've got a dyno curve showing a big step in the power at that level. If you wanted, you could test it by shifting very early and letting the motor pull from 5k or so in a longer gear, and check the logs. You may end up having to get more weight on them to bring them in earlier, but I'd look at more static pressure first.
I can't tell if the slight drop in revs on your 4-5 shift is an artifact or indicating something, but it shows both times.
You a pinch rich at WOT? If the weather is this cold, that's going to be filthy in the heat of summer.
What's up in second gear at recovery rpm? Messy curve on both plots?
The other thing I'd say is that the goal isn't to use all the shock travel, the goal is to stay hooked. Once you've got the bike planting the tire and not spinning, stay as stiff as you can. Energy that moves the suspension around is wasted energy that could be better spent going forwards.
Definitely need to be a bit more aggressive on the 2step, but I understand taking it slow and keeping everything working together on the way there! The tire's sticking and the logger is working, so you're definitely on the right path, it's just always longer than you'd hope :)
Quote from: andyb on October 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
Sounds like you're finally starting the arduous process of dialing it in!
Exactly! The results weren't as good as I wanted, but I finally have a start on the process. Looking at one more "last chance" for the season on the 9th of Nov down in ABQ. Fingers crossed for the weather...
True that on the 60 and 330 - they aren't even in the ballpark right now!
Quote from: andyb on October 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
Looks to me like you need a bit more static in the clutch, the motor is driving through it a bit more than I'd like to see.
That was my first thought too - then I talked myself out of it. I'll give the static a try first.
Here is the baseline tune Tim Hays recommended for the clutch in mult-stage mode based on the info I gave him:
4 static springs (has place for 6)
6 washers on each arm (this model has just 3 arms)
20# holdback springs (also have 14# and 17#)
.100 air gap
I'll add 2 more static springs. Since I still have the slider studs in the pressure plate, I can add a slider spring and nut on the outside of the hat to adjust tension if needed on the 2 additional springs - like the reverse of shimming a spring).
Quote from: andyb on October 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
I can't tell if the slight drop in revs on your 4-5 shift is an artifact or indicating something, but it shows both times.
<snip>
What's up in second gear at recovery rpm? Messy curve on both plots?
I need to check my kill times, but I wonder if they a too long? I wonder if that is causing a hiccup on the shifts? Also wonder if second gear could be either a little clutch slip or some tire spin? After getting the launch in the ballpark it'll be time to spend some effort getting all these other points sharpened up a bit too.
It is still a bit rich - I'm burning the last of my Q16. I can't buy it in Colorado -- it uses MTBE for oxygenation and is banned from sale (and use I presume...) in Colorado -- even for off road use! I jetted down some for the altitude - just not enough. I have another set of power jets to put in when I change to "plain" race gas.
Quote from: andyb on October 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
The tire's sticking and the logger is working, so you're definitely on the right path, it's just always longer than you'd hope :)
Amen to that! Just happy to be ON the path at this point!
Good point on the shock travel - it is in the "good enough" category right now. Tuning this beast will be a constant iterative process - as one aspect gets better, it'll show the next that need improvement, then the next... Shock and tire are good enough right now, clutch and 2-step should get the focus now.
Weather looks like a go for Saturday at Albuquerque!
Main focus will be getting the clutch dialed in better. Ultimate goal is to knock 1/2 a second off the 60' times...that goes to show how bad they really are!
First step is to try adding additional "base" pressure to the clutch. This comes from the coil springs that press the pressure plate against the clutch pack - same way the diaphragm clutch spring works in the stock FJ clutch (or the Barnett coil spring conversions). The base pressure is what gets the bike moving at the "hit." Too much pressure and you spin the tire (or wheel stand if there's enough traction). Not enough and you're SLOW off the line waiting for the centrifugal arms to start applying additional force to the pressure plate. That looks like the issue the last time out.
The baseline clutch tune I was given used 4 (out of a possible 6) "heavy" coil springs. Note - these "heavy" springs are still quite light compared to more normal motorcycle clutch springs. Since the springs have to be arranged symmetrically on the pressure plate, I have to add two more springs. The options are to add two heavy, medium, or light springs. Adding two heavy springs will increase the base pressure 50% - seems like too big a jump to me. The medium springs may work, or be too much, or not enough. Pretty sure the light springs won't be enough.
Now, I have a quick access clutch cover, but it's not big enough to let me pull the hat off the clutch to get to the pressure plate. To change springs (or to inspect the clutch plates ) the entire clutch cover has to come off. So I come up with a plan to only have to do that one time. I'll put in the heavy springs. Then add two medium springs on top of the clutch hat "slider style". These springs pull outward on the pressure plate - opposing the base springs. The adjustor nuts on top of these slider springs adjust how much pressure the slider springs take away from the base springs (the opposite effect of shimming the base springs). And I can make that adjustment through the quick access cover.
Stole a little bit of time last night to pull the clutch cover.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_4_54_01.jpeg)
Took a quick look at the clutch plates -- they are in great condition! No signs of overheating and well oiled.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_30_04.jpeg)
The original clutch setup
(http://[url=http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_26_50.jpeg%5Dhttp://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_26_50.jpeg%5B/url%5D)
Pressure plate with 4 base springs
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_27_49.jpeg)
6 heavy base springs
(http://[url=http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_28_46.jpeg%5Dhttp://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_28_46.jpeg%5B/url%5D)
Slider springs and adjustor nuts. Originally went with two - then thought it was smarter to use three to spread the load more consistently. Making that change this evening.
(http://[url=http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_33_41.jpeg%5Dhttp://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_33_41.jpeg%5B/url%5D)
Should be all read to set some new personal bests and put up some 9s!
Looks like I lost a couple pics.
Original clutch setup:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_26_50.jpeg)
Pressure plate with 6 heavy springs:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_28_46.jpeg)
And the pic of the modified setup with two slider springs on top of the hat.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_33_41.jpeg)
Quote from: fj1289 on November 06, 2013, 06:09:08 PM
And the pic of the modified setup with two slider springs on top of the hat.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/171_06_11_13_12_33_41.jpeg)
Chris, should you not use 3 slider springs, each one on a peg clockwise (or counter-clockwise - as long as they are all the same) to the weights for harmonic balance?
Harvy
[quote author=Harvy link=topic=1698.msg102434#msg102434 date=1383789748
Chris, should you not use 3 slider springs, each one on a peg clockwise (or counter-clockwise - as long as they are all the same) to the weights for harmonic balance?
Harvy
[/quote]
Thanks Harvey, that's exactly what I did this evening. I wanted to make sure the force was balanced on the pressure plate. I was afraid the pressure plate might "teeter totter" with only the two slider springs.
I appreciate the critical and creative thought people on this list have when dealing with things.
Chris
What's the stack height and air gap looking like?
I got to take a couple passes on a friend's ZX11 this weekend, even with a very badly slipping clutch (down 3-10mph!) it managed a 1.79 60' with my heavy tail on it. SWB on it is pretty long, like 58-59", and it's like trying to ride a rocket-powered barstool because it's so tall, even when lowered ~2" and strapped. I had taken my car up to the track just to see what it would run, but I couldn't beat a 15.07 no matter how hard I tried. Cars are really weird to run! Even with a reasonably good 2.2 60', I think the weight was holding me back, but god it's boring to run a 15 when you're used to mid-10's...
Lol! I've thought about taking the rental car to the track a couple times on my business trips - think it would be strange to get that much time to look at things during a pass.
What car? 15.0 isn't bad - I've read that the 14 vettes are only running high 14s.
I imagine the ZX-11 feels more like the FJ than the 9 (with more power!)
Some rental cars (certain Buick's at least) have a 2step if you're on the gas and brake at the same time, and are really good to bracket race...
I finally replaced my horrorshow of a XJ Jeep with a 08 GTI. Unfortunately, there was some kid there with an 06 (same engine, trans, and mods), though his was lowered a bit and on lighter wheels. I was able to beat his 60's, but I think my car was heavier, because he was going 14.9's and I just flat couldn't manage it. I'm happy though, he had the cloth seats and they're just as awful as I remember them being, with their horrible plaid and lack of heat.
The ZX11 actually doesn't feel like an FJ at all. The FJ you sit in, the 11 you sit on. It's much, much bigger from the seat to the bars and pegs, and lacks some of the hotrod feel of the FJ. That said, it's putting something like 140hp to the tire, and will eat an FJ down the track, and burp afterwards.
There was a 14 Vette there. Stunning looking thing, other than the ridiculous taillights. Don't remember what it was running, but I thought it was rather a lot quicker than 14's. It wasn't going to touch the other car that came out... someone brought a $400,000 Aventadore to the party, and it was running 10.teens @ 130 and change.
Currently shopping for a reflash of the ECU in the VW, with a pretty much otherwise stock car it should end up in the lower half of the 14's someplace in comparable air (the DA was insane, only reason I went). Shame the vendors are so proud of their work :(
Made the 6 1/2 hour trip to Albuquerque last weekend for their final TNT day of the year.
Plan for the day is to get my license runs completed. If you run 9.99 or quicker in the 1/4 mile, NHRA sanctioned tracks require you to hold an NHRA license. There's a total of 6 runs progressively building up to full passes at the appropriate time and speed for the class of license you are applying for. First run is a half track pass, next three are "moderate" passes where you stay in it a bit longer each time and show progressively quicker/faster runs. Last two are full passes. The runs have to be witnessed by the track manager and two NHRA licensed drivers, signed off on the license form, and the time slips sent to the NHRA with your medical and completed paperwork.
Feeling good about the day and have a tuning plan to make sure I get my 9 second runs. I have four runs to get the clutch tune into the ballpark to make the 9 second runs happen.
The bike sits at 66" wheelbase and 16/43 gearing. The starting clutch tune was 6 orange (heavy) springs for static, 3 green (medium) slider springs at 4 turns to adjust static, 6 washers on the arms with 20# holdback springs.
Weather is nice - sunny and upper 50s and track elevation is 5,600'. This is also where I've run my best time - last year with the back tire spinning through the launch. This year I've got the suspension set up better, so I can't wait to see what it'll do with some traction.
Have to find the track manager and let him know I'm doing licensing runs. There's an old school KZ1000 small tire/wheelie bar bike doing licensing runs too. Talk to them a bit - bike used to run pro comp in the 80s. They took it out of mothballs last year and bent a valve while they were getting it sorted out again. Also a couple very serious tube chassis cars doing license runs. They have us lining up in the staging lanes in lane 8 - all the way to the right, next to the tower and a port-a-potty.
First run goes well, except I roll out of the gas before the 1/8 mile. Also had a little trouble with the 1-2 shift -- not sure if I didn't make a good push on the button, or if there is something causing a problem on the shift. I miss the early turn off and it seems to take forever to get to the end of the shutdown area for the normal turnoff.
Pickup my time slip and go to the pits.
60' 1.798
330' 4.443
1/8 7.296 @ 71.986 really slow since I rolled out before half track
60' is a lot slower then I was hoping to see on the "first guess" for the clutch tune, but I know what to change for the next run. I realize I forgot to reset the 2-step RPM. It is set about 10,600 and I intended to be 9,000 - the actual engine RPMs are 1/2 the setting! Don't want to make too big a change for the next run, so I adjust it to 10,000. Adjust slider springs to 3 1/2 turns out to add more static pressure to launch a little harder and bring the 60' and 330' down more.
Second run goes well. Stay in the gas for a bit past the 1/8 mile point this time. Made sure to make a solid press on the shift button, but still had troubles with the 1-2 shift again. Wouldn't shift until I backed off the throttle slightly. Thinking now it's spinning at the top of 1st.
60' 1.778
330' 4.770
1/8 7.028 @ 111.031
1000' 9.015
1/4 11.135 @ 96.546
60' improved slightly, so take another 1/2 turn off the slider springs to add some more static. The shifting issue shows in the slower 330'. I take off 1 washer from the arms to reduce the lock up force to try to fix the shifting issue in case it is spinning at the top of 1st.
Starting to develop a routine now for adjustments between runs. Park the bike in the front wheel stand, unzip the leathers and take off the helmet. Get the book out and look at the time slip. Compare what changed to what I was expecting, and try to figure what change to make for the next run. Write down any notes or observations from the run (before you forget!). After a couple of runs, wrenches, sockets, allen wrenches, handles and rag needed for adjusting the clutch are now in a plastic bin wrapped in a larger towel. Spread out the towel, unbolt the mount for the megaphone, pull it off quickly because it is a little warm, put the nut and bolt back through the mount so you don't lose it! Loosen all the quick access cover nuts, then go around again to take them all off and put them in the plastic bin so they don't get lost. Make the clutch adjustment -- slider spring adjustments are easy, just a quick turn with a wrench. Arm weight adjustments are not so easy -- one, because the metal parts are HOT! And dropping one inside the clutch cover means some time consuming work to retrieve it before it finds its way into the bottom of the oil pan... Then, button it all back up. Then double check everything you've touched. Quickly check the catch bottle and empty if needed. Then the most important part - write down the adjustments...you will get it all confused by the end of the day if you don't! Grab a quick drink of water, decide you can wait to hit the port-a-potty after he next run. Gear up, go to the staging lanes, and wait to do it again.
Talking with the KZ1000 rider and (I think) his Dad that used to run the bike in the 80s. Seems they are having ignition issues and working on the clutch tune too. Glad I'm not the only one that faces these gremlins at the track -- hope they get passed them like I seem to finally have managed to do. If I remember right, they finished up last year running 10's. Its a 1428 motor and has a one piece fiberglass body -- painted like an old warbird to match his helmet - pretty cool.
Third run - another "moderate" pass. Launch feels good - feel it pulling through the bars harder than the previous runs. Roll out of it around the 1000' mark. Coast thru the shut down and need a little tap on the brakes to make the turn - first time for today (has felt strange just cruising through the shutdown area).
Roll up to the timing shack and get my time slip and have to take a quick peek (I usually wait until I get back to my pit area). Think I saw a 1.5 something for the 60'!
Get the bike parked and look at the time slip again. Yes! My quickest 60' yet -- 1.571. Not really stellar for this combo, but good progress for today and will be quick enough for my licensing runs.
60' 1.571
330' 4.298
1/8 6.531 @ 108.017
1000' 8.583
1/4 10.531 @ 108.274
Make the decision to leave the clutch tune as it is and focus on riding for the last three runs. Download the datalogs out of the WEGO since it only holds enough data for about three runs. Take a quick look and don't see anything that really stands out. Wish I could log rear wheel speed.
My in-laws show up at this point. They live in Albuquerque and came out to watch. My mother-in-law likes racing events, especially where you can wander thru the pits and look at the cars and talk with people. She makes regular trips out to Bonneville with some cousins? aunt and uncle? that run a mustang and a corvette on the salt. We have a family trip penciled on the calendar for next year for Speed Week - that may include the street bike.... But for now, more important is the fact they've shown up with lunch from a taco truck they found when they got lost on the way to the track. The other half of my little trip to Albuquerque is to take home a load of furniture and stuff for our upcoming Thanksgiving home invasion -- 20 or 30 cousins, uncles, aunts, grandmothers, nieces, and nephews coming for Thanksgiving at our house.
After a good lunch break its back to the staging lanes. This will be the last "moderate" run. I plan to run it hard until 150' or so remaining and roll out of the gas. I know from the last run the bike won't try to do anything stupid so I focus on cutting a good light and throwing away the clutch lever. Didn't notice anything notable on the launch, but I am more aware of the lock upcoming in than before. Definitely feel more speed at the top of the run than before.
Looking at the time slip in the pit I'm taken back - the 60' slowed down over a tenth -- 1.70x. But the 330' is quicker and the ET is 10.03 even though I rolled out before the 1/4 mile!
60' 1.772
330' 4.391
1/8 6.508 @ 116.326
1000' 8.340
1/4 10.037 @ 122.391
Sure wish I ran that one out the back door!
Either way, that'll get the job done when I run it out the back door for the next two runs. Decide to tweak the tune slightly. I take a flat (1/6 of a turn) off the slider springs, bump the 2-stage to setting 10,500, and increase my shift point to 9,500 RPM (I've been short shifting at 9,000 RPM up to now).
Fifth run now - first full pass, looking for 9s. Run goes well, but runs out of gear a little before the lights (shift light on prior to the traps), but let it over rev a little (not too worried with the balanced, nitrided crank, Carillo rods, lightweight pistons and shim under bucket head).
Look at the times lip and I can't believe it -- a 10.4?! A 1.963 60'?! WTF?! Slowest run of the day ...
60' 1.963
330' 4.787
1/8 6.962 @ 113.684
1000' 8.838
1/4 10.447 @ 139.430
Seriously, what's going on here? And more importantly, what changes should I make for the next run? I've only got time for one more run and hope if its a 9 the NHRA will accept the licensing package. Go back to 3 turns on the slider springs and try bumping the 2-stet to 11,000 RPM. In the staging lanes I bump the shift RPM another 250 to 9,750.
The sixth run feels better run, but still doesn't feel as strong as the third run. It does feel fast at the top end though. Time slip is better than the last, but not enough.
60' 1.807
330' 4.469
1/8 6.606 @ 115.101
1000' 8.465
1/4 10.054 @ 141.220
Load up the bike and all the gear trying to figure out what's causing the erratic times This clutch is known for its consistency. Only thing I can come up with is I got more confident in the whole setup and got more aggressive with my clutch release - the difference between letting the clutch out quickly, but it still touching your fingers on the way out compared to releasing the clutch so fast it can't keep up with your fingers. Only thing I can come up with, but doesn't totally explain it for me.
Over the next week I try to find more info about setting up these clutches specifically and find a case where someone had problems with the clutch acting erratic because of a notched clutch basket. That gets me to thinking - the first set of steels I used in the clutch had been ground to the same diameter as Busa clutch plates. Tim bought the stock FJ steels would work, but wasn't completely sure. Long story short - FJ steels are slightly too large to be used in the Busa clutch basket. I pulled the basket and found notching on the inside of the basket from the steels. That will cause problems with the plates hanging up and not releasing smoothly or consistently.
So now I'm coming up with a fixture to turn down the clutch steels on my little harbor freight lathe.
This was the best day I've had at the track in a year (really three!). Good to have most of the gremlins worked out and be running laps when I get to the track. Now, just take care of a couple details this winter and be ready to go quicker in the spring!
Great track report, thanks for sharing. It's all about consistency and it sounds like you found the culprit with the FJ steels in the Busa basket. What sucks is we have to wait til spring to hear how your next round goes.
It will be great when you get to the point where your not second guessing your tune and all your concentration can be focused on the ride. Sounds like you are close. :good2:
Scott
I read all of these, by the way. Super interesting.
I figured this would be a fairly straight forward build thread. Had I kept the build more basic - a 1314 engine and hand clutch - it would have been a lot easier and been quicker up to this point.
The project got its first big push when a friend I met when I stared drag racing forwarded an ad on psychobike.com - someone parting out a big block FJ motor. I ended up buying an aftermarket cast cylinder block and 1380 pistons, stock crank with Carillo H beam rods, ported big valve head, cams, and the modified cases (a strengthening rib welded to the front of the block and what looks like a one-off set of heavy duty studs with larger than standard threads in the block). I foolishly tried to bolt it all back together and run it - didn't make the power it should. The rings weren't sealing well. I replace the 1380 block with a used 1314 block - ran much better and ran the best times for the streetbike ... just before spinning a rod bearing.
That's when I decided to turn my old parts bike into a dedicated drag bike and began collecting parts.
Well, took a closer look at the data logs today (again!). I noticed the big WTF on the log of the 5th run I hadn't noticed yet. I kept focusing on the launch portion of the run and trying to figure out what was different to cause it to be so slow. This time I noticed there were only four acceleration "peaks" for the whole run.... Yep, looks like I didn't get it into 1st after the 2nd gear burnout. :dash2: Can you say launched in second gear?! :ireful:
I guess it did pretty well for a second gear launch.
Oh man, that would explain a lot... :dash2:
I really enjoy reading your posts Chris. Too bad I am going to have to wait 'till late spring to read more..
Why don't you move to SoCal? We race all year long out here...
Think of all the snow you won't have to shovel. :good:
Thanks again Chris, I learn from every one of your posts.
Pat
Pat - I'm sure year round in CA is nice, but I think I'm actually starting to enjoy having a "season". When you get to ride in Colorado in the winter, it's like you're getting away with something! Also helps to have an enforced break -- time to clean up all the hastily made repairs made during the season.
Many people here also on advrider.com? I haven't been on there in a while, but I enjoy reading some of the build threads and ride reports - especially the ones that find a way to become more than just the build or ride. I like the ride reports section here too.
I need to make more time at the track and get some pics of the cool stuff there. Tried the GoPro mounted to the tank on a cou
"Many people here also on advrider.com?"
Yes, I enjoy the builds and mods. Also keep up with the Cafe group as I enjoy the engineering and artistry involved. If the FJ ever gets done it would be easy for me to get involved with a custom build, the problem is to build what.... So many ideas, so little time.... And of course money.... :good2:
George
Well, I'll try to finish that last post now...not sure what happened.
Tried mounting GoPro on the tank for the last three runs. Forgot to turn it on for the first run! The last two the camera didn't record (operator error - thought it was in one-touch mode - oops). I really like the perspective in a video Randy forwarded to me - cool view of what the chain is doing and a good shot of what the front end is doing too.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5a0_1384459154 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5a0_1384459154)
I also like the view from Richard Gadson's recent 7.08 at 205+ on a GS1100 pro street bike:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-b19UkpXcQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DL-b19UkpXcQ (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-b19UkpXcQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DL-b19UkpXcQ)
I plan to fabricate a small plate to bolt to the left side rear axle block for a GoPro mount. Will be interesting to see how that works.
Also want to find a spot to mount it for a good view of the dash and track - not sure the tank mount will "see" over the dash. Maybe a mount on the triple clamp or the clip on...
George - don't overplan a cafe build -- just roll with whatever comes up at the time! Two sites with great ideas are wrench monkees site and bratstyle.com
That video is cool showing the stress's on the chain. I will check those WEB sites out. I don't know about building a Cafe Racer, I do appreciate the engineering but the FJ makes short runs real easy. I am thinking about more of a touring / adventure bike for a build.
Don't get me wrong Chris, the FJ stays :good2:......... Hard to beat all things considering.
George
You wouldn't be interested in a very nicely done KLR650 Tengai would you? The Tengai was a 2 year special model Paris-Dakar rep. I bought it already painted (Kawi green) and 685 kit. I've added crash bars and Wolfman soft luggage. Also adding ported big valve head to compliment the big bore. Kept stock cam and carb for throttle response and off road ability.
Quote from: fj1289 on November 25, 2013, 10:18:17 PM
You wouldn't be interested in a very nicely done KLR650 Tonga would you? The Tonga was a 2 year special model Praised rep. I bought it already painted (Kai green) and 685 kit. I've added crash bars and Wolfman soft luggage. Also adding ported big valve head to compliment the big bore. Kept stock cam and crab for throttle response and off road ability.
Sounds nice but daring to be different I am thinking about a BMW K75 similar to http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740106 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740106) or some variant. I tried a KLR before I bought the FJ and for some reason it just didn't "gel". Hard to explain, when a bike fits you know it first thing. I ran a DRZ 400 for a couple of years and never did like it. To tall etc.. Great in the dirt but around town wasn't to good. On a lark I went over to look at the FJ I own and knew from the minute I sat on it that it "fit". Years ago I rode a K75 down to Las Vegas and while not a power house I was impressed with how smooth and flat the power band was. Hard to beat those 3 cylinder bikes for running smooth.
Just crap to think about. Right now I am still puttering around on the FJ thinking about the next WCR and maybe a "western parks" tour in the summer.
With all the new members in the Colorado area there might be nice rally there also this next summer.
George
Here's what you want George... ltd edition GS Dakar! Unlike the big GS this one is a simple, stump pulling, 650cc thumper that goes forever and will climb trees. Also very rare, I've only seen one in the wild.
(http://weatherimagery.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/BMW_F-650-GS_Dakar1.jpg)
Enjoy shopping!
Frank
The F650 would be a most excellent bike if you spent most of your time off road. I think I see where you're going with the K75 -broad seat more comfy ergos, but be aware that bike is a pig for weight. Hell, for that kind of weight you may want to consider the BMW's big GS.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on November 26, 2013, 07:38:29 AM
The F650 would be a most excellent bike if you spent most of your time off road. I think I see where you're going with the K75 -broad seat more comfy ergos, but be aware that bike is a pig for weight. Hell, for that kind of weight you may want to consider the BMW's big GS.
Dan
I agree with the weight issue. I just like the concept. The future project is in the "looking and thinking" mode. Not a big thumper fan for what I want to end up with. I had a BMW RT 100 and the weight was about the same as a friends old XS 1100 but because of where the center of gravity was the BMW was much easier to handle. Gutless on power but balanced well. Gutless might be a bit strong, just lower on power....
Frank, that Dakar GS is more dirt oriented than I would like but it looks nice. About the only dirt I will see is fire roads :good2:.
Sorry Chris, I didn't mean to highjack the thread. maybe there needs to be another category for "Non FJ bike projects" ? :biggrin:
George
Quote from: movenon on November 26, 2013, 09:07:50 AM
Frank, that Dakar GS is more dirt oriented than I would like but it looks nice. About the only dirt I will see is fire roads :good2:.
You sound like you need a supermoto...
(http://www.ktmspain.com/subidas/2012/10/bmw_hp2_supermoto-1.jpg)
Now that looks like fun!
Frank
And now to combine dragracing and dirty work into one post...
Years ago, I had a friend of a friend with a RM250. Dirt bike. Wheelie bars. Nitromethane. Yup. 12.x's in the 1/4mile, from a 250. Silly stuff. :)
George - no worries! It is the off season after all.
Andy - sounds cool. Most of the motocrosser turned drag bike projects I've seen are gear/RPM limited. Wonder what kind of revs he's turning thru the lights!
T
Right now I'm thinking thru the off season mods for the drag bike.
First and foremost is getting a better handle on the clutch tune. I've read just about everything I can about tuning this clutch - and tried to sort the BS from the nuggets. One interesting thing I've found seems to point towards treating it more like a slider and less like a traditional multi-stage lock up. Putting just enough static in it to ride back after the run (or just enough to pass the tech rules for your class - most classes require the engine to die if the clutch is released at idle). Then use the arms, weights, and extension springs to tune the engagement RPM. May also be getting a little professional help to get the next step or two thru the clutch tuning process and continuing to learn along the way.
Next I'm thinking of reinstalling the Innovate Motorsports DL-32 data logger. I had some issues with the DL-32 previously and switched to logging with the WEGO III. Problem is the WEGO only logs 3 channels - RPM and air fuel ratio - plus a third 0-5 volt signal. Most people log TPS, but I want to log wheel speed (plus I don't have a TPS anyway). The DL-32 will log a frequency and convert to a "usable" linear signal - correlating to rear wheel speed in this case. The rear wheel speed signal is generated by a hall effect sensor and six rare earth magnets attached to the rear sprocket studs. For the WEGO to log this signal, it needs a frequency to voltage converter. My attempts at making one have failed miserably, so I'll try adding another box (the DL-32) to the mix. Pretty sure the previous issues with the DL-32 were related to a bad SD card and compounded by a failing O2 sensor.
I'd also like to lower the front end some more, and will require several changes to do properly. First the bottom of the fairing needs to be trimmed for fender clearance. May also need to move the fairing forward another inch or so (it was already moved forward about 2 inches during the original build). Finally, need to account for the decreased steering head angle resulting from the from the lowered front end (and possibly raising the rear) since quick steering or "twitchy" and drag bike are terms that do not go well together. The solution? Traditionally it has been to rake the front end. Now a days "street bike" style drag bikes use triple trees with less offset - increasing trail while also not increasing the wheelbase (especially for bikes running in classes with wheelbase restrictions). Since I'm using early R1 forks, I've got options. Yamaha went thru a few phases while trying to tailor the handling of the R1. They started with 35mm offset triple clamps - same as the FJ (and many other models too) while later years included both 30mm and 25mm offsets. There's a set with 25mm offset setting in a box of spares waiting to be installed. Tire to header clearance can become critical - hopefully having the head pipes cut and rewelded during the original build will ensure there's enough clearance without further mods...
And then there's a few more details - like swapping the 16 tooth countershaft sprocket for a 17 tooth. This will help male sure it doesn't run out of gear at the end of the 1/4 mile, and should make tuning the clutch a little less "touchy". Also would like to make a fiberglass "seat" and possibly notch the rear subframe to lower the seating height a couple inches. Make some mounts for the GoPro, and more things I'm sure that will come up along the way...
For now, I've got 2 1/2 weeks to ponder my options due to work. And time to finish Capt'n Ron's epic travel thread...
Well, about time to start updating this thread again. The first test n tune days at Bandimere are April 12th and 13th (the 13th is race cars only - running slicks or 11.99 and quicker)
Just ordered the 17 tooth offset countershaft sprocket. Should help keep it out of redline at the stripe (and be good for 150's if needed). Taking some gear out of it is also supposed to make tuning the clutch a little less touchy.
I've filed the notches out of the clutch basket. Now need to finish grinding down the clutch steels - have them ground to size, just need to dress rough edges.
Thanks to Randy for sending me a trashed input shaft so I could grind the steels to size myself. May be a bit of a hack job, but seems to have worked well. Started by cutting the end off the input shaft and chucking it into the lathe. Then stacked a clutch hub with a couple of the original steels that were ground to size (but are now warped), stacked the stock steels on, and finished with a couple of the original steels. The original steels on each end serve as guides to grind the steels to the correct size. Bolted on the pressure plate and fastened the assembly to the end of the shaft in the lathe. Then, as the whole assembly spins - slowly ground the steels down to size using a 4 inch angle grinder! A steady hand, good light, and keeping a close watch ensures it comes out well. Now I just have to dress off the sharp edges created.
After a lot of reading and thinking on the clutch tune - think I've got a way forward with it. Plan is to keep running it in multistage mode, but treat it more like a slider by setting it up with just enough attic pressure to be able to ride back after a pass, but tune the clutch using the lockup arms and holdback springs.
A traditional multistage lockup requires static pressure to get the bike moving from a stand still since the lockup doesn't start to spin until the transmission is turning (i.e. the bike has started to roll). But a slider clutch that has the lockup attached to the clutch basket can apply lockup force based strictly on the engine speed.
There are a lot of variables to work with - air gap/stack height, total friction surface in the clutch (number of friction plates being used), static pressure, lockup arm weight, hold bald springs, and 2-step RPM.
Plan is to use the same air gap and number of plates, go back to just 4 static springs, start with 5 washers on each arm (as determined last time out) and swap the 20# hold back springs for 17# to bring the lockup force in sooner. Then the tuning variables will be arm weight, hold back springs, and 2-step RPM.
Main goal will be to get consistent launches and be able to make a change and see how it reacts. At that point the tuning process should become a lot more straight forward.
I'll also be changing to the non-oxygenated fuel they sell at the track. So another jetting change will be in order too.
April is soon!!! :greeting:
Quote from: fj1289 on March 05, 2014, 08:55:15 PM
After a lot of reading and thinking on the clutch tune - think I've got a way forward with it. Plan is to keep running it in multistage mode, but treat it more like a slider by setting it up with just enough attic pressure to be able to ride back after a pass, but tune the clutch using the lockup arms and holdback springs.
A traditional multistage lockup requires static pressure to get the bike moving from a stand still since the lockup doesn't start to spin until the transmission is turning (i.e. the bike has started to roll). But a slider clutch that has the lockup attached to the clutch basket can apply lockup force based strictly on the engine speed.
There are a lot of variables to work with - air gap/stack height, total friction surface in the clutch (number of friction plates being used), static pressure, lockup arm weight, hold bald springs, and 2-step RPM.
Plan is to use the same air gap and number of plates, go back to just 4 static springs, start with 5 washers on each arm (as determined last time out) and swap the 20# hold back springs for 17# to bring the lockup force in sooner. Then the tuning variables will be arm weight, hold back springs, and 2-step RPM.
Main goal will be to get consistent launches and be able to make a change and see how it reacts. At that point the tuning process should become a lot more straight forward.
I'll also be changing to the non-oxygenated fuel they sell at the track. So another jetting change will be in order too.
The guys that I've seen run a multistage with that sort of setup find that it's basically a slider by the time the run's over, due to heat changing the spec on stuff. Gets them through a hand clutch rule at tech, though!
Made it out to the strip last night! :yahoo:
I guess the 8th attempt is the charm...and thought work was going to clobber it again last night.
From the last outing last year, made a couple changes to the setup. Biggest change is going from a 16 tooth countershaft sprocket to a 17. Gearing now is 17/43 and should be good for 150 mph at 10,000 RPM if needed. Also have setup the swingarm to act as an air tank by sealing all the leaks and adding a couple fittings. Finally changes to VP 113E fuel since I can't run VP Q16 here (the MTBE used to oxygenate it is illegal in Colorado). VP 113E is lightly oxygenated compared to the Q16 so it will make less power
For the clutch, ground down a set of stock FJ steels to fit better in the Busa clutch basket. Only change to the clutch tune is going from 20# holdback springs (the ones that attach to the arms making a triangle) to 17#. That should bring the lockup in a little sooner. Also went back to 4 heavy static springs and got rid of the slider springs.
Last night was "Race Car Test" -- limited to vehicles with slicks or running 11.99 or quicker. Great evening for tuning - never had more than 6 or 8 cars or bikes in line to run. Also, everyone was pretty well prepared - only a couple cars slow to clear the track and NO oil downs!
Got 6 runs in with plenty of time between runs for tweaking and cool down. Bottom line - no nines this time out, but pretty sure how to get there next time.
Get thru tech with one snag - the new (to me) leathers I picked up off craigslist have nylon zippers - NHRA requires metal zippers. Oops. They clear me to run for the night - which really isn't a big deal since I plan to mainly run the 1/8 mile and focus on the 60' and 330' times.
Finish prepping the bike - and think there's a leak in the air shifter when I put the CO2 cylinder on. Quickly disconnect the CO2. Remove the lines from the swingarm and install a single line straight to the shifter solenoid. Seems to take care of the leak.
Roll up to the staging lanes - only other vehicle is a Harley with bars. He's running on a .400 pro tree. Starter asks me if I want to run the pro tree or wait for the full tree. What the heck - I'll run the pro tree - won't make a difference on my 60'. Burn out, line up, wait for the tree to count down - crap! No count down on a pro tree! I leave very late, but the launch feels good. And I chase the sportster down just past the 1/8th where I roll out. Cruise to the turnoff and go past the sportster who is waiting for his tow back to how pits. Really makes me appreciate being able to cruise back to the pits on my own -- and not need a start cart or crew either. Get back to the pits and look at the time slip. Not bad - happy with the run for right off the trailer.
60' 1.672
330' 4.349
1/8 6.532 at 112.05
Pretty much on par with the good runs from last time out - and with the new gearing and fuel.
The launch is still a bit lazy - so the first change is to add more static pressure. Take off the clutch cover, remove the clutch hat and add 2 medium springs to the 4 heavy springs. Keep everything else the same.
2nd run. Short wait in the staging lanes. Line up with a second gen Camaro with a single centered wheelie bar (which he put to good use!). Burnout, stage, and watch the tree count down this time. Bottom yellow light and go - and spin hard. Back pedal the throttle a little and shift.
Once again chase down the Camaro just passed the 1/8 mile as I roll out.
Time slip isn't good - as expected with spinning on the launch.
60' 1.848
330' 4.827
1/8 7.123 at 107.39
The added static did its job - definitely tried to launch harder - just more than the suspension and tire could hold on to. For the next run I soften the rear suspension link from 15 to 15 1/2 out of 16 marks. Also drop rear tire pressure from 20 psi to 15 psi.
3rd run. Lined up with a Nova with a tall scoop and full slicks. Still spins on the launch - not as bad as last time. Nova gets a great jump but I'm well past him before the 1/8 mile point.
60' 1.673
330' 4.289
1/8 6.475 at 111.78
Not a bad run - actually best 330' and 1/8 yet - despite spinning on the launch.
Changes for next run - take the rear suspension link out to the softest setting (16). Keep tire pressure at 15 psi - don't know how these tires behave at really low pressures and don't want to take a chance of the bead coming off the rim. Only other adjustment to help traction on launch is to take out some compression damping - take out 3 clicks of high and slow speed compression damping. Decide to reduce the 2 step RPM about 500 to soften the hit some.
Run 4. Still spins on the launch - and won't shift. CO2 bottle out already. Forgot about losing a lot of it with the leak before the first run. That run is a scratch.
Have to take out some static from the clutch since I've run out of suspension adjustments. (On the way home think of one other change -- shorten the wheelbase -- but I didn't have my chain tools with me). Replace the medium springs with the (very) light springs with a hardened 5/16" washer as a spacer. These springs are very light compared to the mediums.
5th run. Almost end of the night. Plan to run the full length on this one.
Launch feels very smooth. Too smooth it turns out. Look at the time slip - WTF?!
60' 1.922
330' 4.768
1/8 6.989 at 111.04
1000' 8.921
1/4 10.577 at 135.73
All I can think of is the 2 step is too low. Add back 500 RPM on the 2 step. Quick turn to make a final run before they close the staging lanes. (Turns out it was a 2nd gear launch - again - and the times are very similar to the last time out when I did that).
Line up with a car tire old school Kawasaki with bars. Says he's been chasing his tune all night after installing a new slick - says it falls on its face on the launch now.
Run the full length again. Launch feels good - doesn't misbehave. Run feels good.
60' 1.677
330' 4.342
1/8 6.530 at 112.15
1000' 8.435
1/4 10.071 at 137.09
Not a bad run - but short of where it should be.
For the next outing - plan to increase static pressure - just not as much as adding the 2 medium springs. Ordered some 3/4" shim washers in .005", .010", .015" and .025" from McMaster-Carr this evening. Plan is to remove the light springs and start shimming 2 of the 4 heavy springs to incrementally increase the static pressure. Other change will be to shorten the wheelbase some to increase traction. It's about 65.75" wheelbase now. Removing 4 links should put it about 64.5". This should help increase the traction available. Possible downside could be a greater tendency to wheelie - but there's some margin there since it really hasn't tried try to stand up yet.
Have to get metal zippers added to the leathers to be legal for next time. Might as well get some of the other mods that will be needed to make them legal for Bonneville too
Good stuff, more learned!
Unless that was typical track prep or you're expecting to bracket race with a little more on the dial, leave it long for now. There's no reason why you can't get it to hook at that length and weight if the prep is on point.
Sounds right on dialing in the static, baby steps, but you have to blow through firmly a few times to learn just how big a step a baby would take, after all.
Don't like the backhalf on the full run. 24mph seems really, really low to me. I can't imagine it's blowing through the clutch downtrack, and that isn't the sort of power output that you'd associate with getting the tire to spin (nevermind having a soft shock to boot...). You're maybe still chasing the fueling a fair chunk?
I forget which tire you said you were using (hookup?) but I'd start getting real leery once you're under 14psi cold. I think the problem with the usoft's weak beads is now a thing of the past, but at least two machines crossed the finish line in a wheels-up pose that I'm aware of... and that's with PST speeds, too.
Remember that track prep improves as you start getting bigger events in the swing of summer, because the track needs to work well when there's big money events going down. The other question would be temperature? If the track here is under 100F or above 140F on the ground, it may as well be covered in oil.
Sounds good though! Keep chasing it!
Exactly!
Prep wasn't bad - but wasn't great either. It is only about three weeks into the season at this point, temp in the 60's, and we even got some snow last night. So prep will probably get better.
The tire is a Michelin Race 1 I think -- it was the one before the one everyone was using but is now discontinued. It is a bit on the old side now - probably 5 years old? Still heats up well and always picks up pebbles on the way back after a run.
The shock is now too far on the hard side I think. Didn't know how much range the adjustable linkage had - was almost full hard on the linkage with the old 650# spring and couldn't keep it from bottoming. Put in a 950# spring and it's been better - but I'm full soft on the linkage now and seems like it's still a bit hard for an aggressive launch. Also wonder if it is also "topping out" and causing a little spin issue for the 1-2 shift?
A few things bringing the back half down some - 5800' elevation for one, going from Q16 to 113E, and shift light set under 10,000 RPM. The power jets have gone from 120's at 3,500' elevation tracks with Q16 fuel to 40's at 5,800' with the 113E. And that's giving me right at 12.5 on the AFR. This mile high stuff sucks the horsepower! This motor pulls well up high - and it's fun to let it eat - I try to keep it down some, especially when I'm focused on the other end of the track right now. I noticed looking at my notes from last outing I had the shiftlight set to 10,750 on the 10.0 runs (and on Q16) ansd this time I turned it "up" to 9,750 for the final runs. Overall I think I lost less than I expected to with the fuel change and the gearing change.
Good point on the wheelbase - I'll keep it where it is. Think it's time to find an 800-850# spring though. Can't wait to get out again. Want to get this thing dialed in enough I can focus on bracket racing instead of tuning!
Not to be a dick, but I'm gonna be a dick. At least I'm honest (don't you hate when people start with a disclaimer like that anyhow?!)
Why Q16 fuel? Why 113?
Are you really running that much compression? I realize that the silly elevation isn't doing you any favors, but I think you're shooting squirrels with an elephant gun.
If you can't run a replacement-lead fuel, such as U4.4 or MR12 due to stupid laws, and still want a reasonably high octane... Have you looked at VP's Streetblaze 100? Yes, it's a motor octane of 96 instead of 116, but if you're under 14:1 I'd feel safe to wager that you're pissing money and power down the drain. There's some more unusual VP fuels that also fit the bill, like SV-05 (98 MON and oxygenated). There's no reason to run a nitrous/turbo fuel if you're running on motor.
In my own racing, I found that with a DA of 2500-3000, going from pump 87 (also known as "partially water") to proper 100 octane fuel cost me a solid 4mph and 0.15s. With a 735lb combination, that equated to nearly 10% all on its own, or 12-13hp worth! U4.4, even with a weak oxygenation package and far too much octane gave me back half of my losses (better than 87 pump, but not as good as the DA correction would imply).
You can't swap fuel around without getting it dead on. It's arguably the cheapest power you can make, and a consistent and important part of your tuning package. Dont' skimp! It's as important as setting your squish, but easier to fix when you jack it up. Get some spare plugs and a pail of appropriate fuel, and make some tuning decisions.
You KNOW the suspension, gearing, and clutch make a difference. Getting the motor to output as much as you can, consistently, makes tuning the rest of the combination that much easier. The whole trick is removing as many variables as you can and getting things as close as possible quickly. Once you've got the fuel done, the motor gets jetted and timed appropriately, and is done. Then the focus shifts to the suspension and tire (which I must say... you're looking to me like someone racing on a tire that's had two lifetimes worth of heatcycling... Just sayin! I know it's not cheap, but as you start getting closer, it's going to become non-optional to have a tire that's sticky every single pass, and you know that as well as I do). Once you can eliminate all these things as being variable, then you can begin choosing between 0.010 and 0.015 shims in the clutch, with some security that it's a trustworthy and repeatable change. Look at it like a bracket racer, step one is consnstency. Once you've achieved that, the tuning changes don't get lost in the noise of the variabiltiy of the runs.
And you better get a move on. The shim kit is in my dining room right now, and within a week I expect to have my FJ doing breakin miles. I'm hoping for very low 10.70's on motor, and once the compression checks say I've seated the rings I'll be doing my damnedest to beat your ass into the 9's, on a stock wheelbase and displacement no less. Get to work!!! :)
Sad night last night for the dragbike -- started tearing it down for the parts I'm going to borrow for Bonneville.
Pulled the head for the cams and whole shim under bucket setup. Really wish I could use the whole head, but the welded on spigots for the Lectron carbs make adapting the throttle bodies a difficult task.
Tonight I'm pulling the swingarm and in a few days I'll swap the forks out too.
Looks like it'll be September sometime before the dragbike sees the strip again... :cray:
Have you ever seen such a mess?!
I was concerned when I first looked at this engine due to the orange "stripe" around the case seams.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_21_11_20_5_13_16_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_21_11_20_5_13_17_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_21_11_20_5_13_18_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_21_11_20_5_13_19_3.jpeg)
Spluge everywhere, yuck....
THAT'S SCARY
Quote from: fj1289 on November 21, 2020, 05:31:44 PM
Have you ever seen such a mess?!
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_21_11_20_5_13_19_3.jpeg)
Haha, I feel like I've met that guy many times in my life. He's the same guy that over fills everything, over tightens nuts and bolts, uses a torque wrench on
everything then adds a quarter turn to be sure, puts Loctite on every thread on the bike, over greases everything, tells everyone what a rip-off mechanics are and that he can do a better job himself and save $1000's while he's at it.
Omg, the thought of all that floating around inside the engine!!!! :dash2:
Noel
Gotta seal those main bearing journals, lest there be a massive internal oil leak!
At least most of the overflow is on the inside of the motor where you can't see it. (YIKES!!!)
Some people shouldn't be allowed to buy wrenches..... or RTV!
Quote from: fj1289 on November 21, 2020, 05:31:44 PM
Have you ever seen such a mess?!
I was concerned when I first looked at this engine due to the orange "stripe" around the case seams.
That's over the top ridiculous.......
Well, at least you know you'll have some time cleaning all the passages - and checking them thrice! ;)
Very true! Going to be chasing and flushing EVERYTHING!
I'm not sure the engine was run in this condition. Although there seems to be quite a bit of oil on everything, the bearings and journals look great! When is saw that much crap everywhere I assumed there would be oil starvation issues.
Haven't determined why the cases were split - I assume transmission. I need to look at the shift forks and see if they are new. Transmission has not been undercut - maybe was R&R'd with a "good" used trans? Does look to be some dings around the second gear windows, but the dogs look OK to my eye. Will get an undercut trans as insurance.
Hopefully can get this cleaned up this weekend.
Little projects continue.
I've been stuck on some details on the nitrous system for a couple months now. Overall plan is two stages - 1st will be smaller used on the hit - right when the clutch is released on launch. Then the 2nd stage will be progressed through second, third, and maybe fourth gears.
2nd stage system is set up a lot like my original nitrous system. The problem has been trying to optimize the system a bit. Nitrous works best when you manage to get the nitrous into the motor still as a liquid. Then as it phase changes to a gas state you get the most benefit from the cooling. Also, as a liquid it displaces less of the air going into the engine - both preserving as much NA (naturally aspirated) power as well as slightly decreasing the change in the composition of the mixture for combustion.
Anywhere there is a transition or turn in the system, there is a chance for expansion or turbulence - both which can cause some of the dense liquid to start to phase change to gas. Transitions can't be avoided - but you want to minimize them and make them as smooth as possible. I was having trouble in my mind with the transition to the nozzles. As it was, it went from the steel braided lines (3AN sized) through a 3AN to 1/8 NPT fitting, through a 1/8 NPT junction to the 1/8 NPT nozzle. The nozzle seems to be set up to seal against a male flare - but short of fabricating a fitting I couldn't find one. As it was, it created a fairly large expansion chamber right at the "business end" of the whole setup.
I bought a set of nozzles - but turned out they were a lot shorter than I realized and would end up well short of the mouths of the throttle bodies. That would defeat the efforts of eliminating the expansion area before the nozzle by replacing it with a huge one just after! So back to the old nozzles.
Here is what I finally came up with. Re-thread the nozzle to accept the 3AN line directly. Since the 1/8 NPT thread was a bit bigger than the 3AN thread, I was able to turn down most of the old threads on the lathe, the run a 3/8-24 die over it. The die wouldn't cut all the way to the base, so I had the flip it over and very carefully thread it over the newly cut threads backwards - then finish cutting the threads to the base.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_04_12_20_8_14_45_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_04_12_20_8_14_46_1.jpeg)
Next it needed to be counterbored to accept a flare jet. The flare jet is the sealing surface for the 3AN line.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_04_12_20_8_14_47_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_04_12_20_8_14_48_3.jpeg)
Finished job. Eliminated two transitions and the expansion space. As a side note - the flare jets are quite large - slightly larger than the inside of the 3AN and slightly smaller than the inside of the nozzle. The nitrous system is jetted at the solenoid to achieve the best response while progressing the system.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_04_12_20_8_14_49_4.jpeg)
Also - does anyone recognize these nozzles? I'm sure they are available from an industrial or agricultural supply, but have not found them on McMaster-Carr or Grainger so far.
Recently found what at first appeared to be a very unusual clutch among some parts that came with the billet transmissions that came from Rod Mumford's estate.
At first glance it appeared to be a Hayabusa basket with some kind of a slipper clutch and a shaft adapter for the clutch hub. I assumed it was something that Rod had adapted to an FJ back plate.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_06_01_21_1_54_40_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_06_01_21_1_54_41_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_06_01_21_1_54_42_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_06_01_21_1_54_43_3.jpeg)
Further investigation revealed the backing plate was not from an FJ - wrong number of teeth on the basket. WTF? Then I remember that Rod also had a Kawasaki drag bike. Started looking through Kawasaki transmission parts. Found a clutch hub that matched - 83/84 GPz1100. But, wrong number of teeth on the basket. Finally got everything to match - Kawasaki ZX-11.
Unfortunately the shaft adapter doesn't fit the FJ transmission output shaft. But, all is not lost. While trying to figure things out I discovered the Kawasaki clutch steels actually fit the FJ clutch hub AND are slightly smaller diameter than the FJ clutch steels......just exactly what I was getting ready to try to address again for the drag bike clutch:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/4/171_13_12_12_1_06_11_1.jpeg)
This was a hybrid clutch - a basket normally used in a Hayabusa drag clutch married to an FJ clutch hub. It was designed to use Hayabusa frictions and MODIFIED FJ steels. The FJ steels had to be ground to fit inside the clutch basket without fouling on the sides of the basket. Looks like the Kawasaki steels will fit without modification. Kawasaki also makes these steels for various models and are available in different thicknesses - perfect for adjusting the clutch pack thickness to suit the drag clutch requirements!
You never know where you are going to find the next step ahead. :good2:
Love the ingenuity here!
I can't wait for the tracks to open up!!! :wacko2:
Finally did a little bit of work on this one last night! Very little - but at least it is something. Checked main bearing clearances with plasti-gage.
Decided to set aside the "orange sealant" cases after I found a cracked thru boss on one of the front case bolts. I'd imagine it could still provide good service since that fastener shouldn't be heavily stressed, but I took it as being another sign that it might be better to use a different set of cases. Now it's a set of FJ1100 cases getting prepped to go together.
The intent of this engine is to be somewhat of a "test mule" - try out a couple ideas and see how far I can push some things - like how much nitrous it will take - but without going "all-in" on the build. That said, I've been collecting parts for a year and a half or better - some will go to use in this initial build, some are on the shelf for "future growth".
The biggest parts of the build will center around resolving issues we've already had (mainly shifting under larger nitrous loads and reliable crankshaft signal at high rpms) and trying to maximize the amount of nitrous the engine can effectively use (XJR cylinder with THICK sleeves, cylinder head with larger exhaust valves and exhaust cam with longer duration).
When (not if) we find the limits, then we will address those. Hopefully without breaking the bank too many times in the process!
And all this is being updated under the drag bike build thread (instead of the land speed thread) because I'm going back to more of a drag bike setup this time around. Focus will be more development at the drag strip and then looking to try some of the 1/2 mile land speed events. I think the FJ setup as it is has some advantages in the 1/2 mile compared to other motorcycle competitors so we might be able to pursue some pretty high goals.
Now, if work will ever leave me at home for more than a 10 day stretch I might be able to start making some progress ....
Took the crankshaft to the machine shop that resized the XJR rods. He laughed and gave me the same hard time as he did with my "cute little" rods :sarcastic: Simple balance on the crank and polish the journals.
I got to thinking - i should probably balance the rods too. Broke out the scale my wife bought to weigh the kitten she rescued on my last work trip ...
Took a few tries (and a couple evenings) to come up with a way to measure the big end weight that gave consistent, repeatable results.
(http://[url=http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_21_10_12_29_0.jpeg%5Dhttp://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_21_10_12_29_0.jpeg%5B/url%5D)
(http://[url=http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_21_10_12_29_1.jpeg%5Dhttp://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_21_10_12_29_1.jpeg%5B/url%5D)
3 of 4 rods weighed 371 grams, with big end weight 259g. 4th rod was 373 grams with 261 gram big end. Removed 2 grams from the large end of the rod (took 8 or 9 attempts) to get the total weight and big end weight to match the other rods. And yes, do I know my big end weight will be a bit skewed since the rod isn't totally horizontal - but this setup gave usable, repeatable, consistent results. :drinks:
Pictures for the above post - didn't notice they had gotten scrambled ... :flag_of_truce:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_21_10_12_29_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_21_10_12_29_1.jpeg)
Opened up a set of 1100 for the big bore "extra thick" sleeves. The sleeves will take up to an 83mm bore - but only going to 80.5mm. This should give a very thick wall that will be strong and will be able to be bored 2 or 3 times if there is an "oops" on the nitrous ...
Marked out the base gasket opening:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_15_04_21_8_25_54_0.jpeg)
After grinding with 50 grit sanding drum. Also followed up with 80 grit and 120 grit.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_15_04_21_8_25_55_1.jpeg)
Looked back at some old posts - did this 5 month ago ... sure is dragging on!
Quote from: fj1289 on October 01, 2021, 11:35:48 PM
Looked back at some old posts - did this 5 month ago ... sure is dragging on!
Time warp!
Thanks for the posts and info, always enjoy them.
Also, it's not (?) a bad idea to smooth the air passages in the block.
Not sure if it really does much good (or bad) but it seems like it could help with the flow as the cylinders rise and fall.
Chris, is there a difference in case thickness or case strength between the 1100 and 1200 cases?
I seem to recall in the past that 1200 cases were stronger and had more meat for the cylinder studs.
I think it was APE mentioning their heavy studs would only fit the 1200 case, not the 1100.
Something like that....
Cheers, keep up the good work. I enjoy your posts!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 03, 2021, 01:39:45 PM
Chris, is there a difference in case thickness or case strength between the 1100 and 1200 cases?
I seem to recall in the past that 1200 cases were stronger and had more meat for the cylinder studs.
I think it was APE mentioning their heavy studs would only fit the 1200 case, not the 1100.
Something like that....
Cheers, keep up the good work. I enjoy your posts!
Pat - I don't know the answer to that one! Years ago, Andy York (built Frank Moore's Brutus) told me it was advantageous to use the 1200 cases due to the three mounting bolts for the alternator vice two on the 1100 cases - less likely to break the bolts or bosses. Never mentioned anything else.
I'll have to phone a friend on this one - Randy? Robert? Any input?
Just looked at the APE website - it lists their studs for FJ1100 (late) and FJ1200. So it seems like there was some kind of change in the cases during the FJ1100 production run. :pardon:
I knew it was better to start with 1200 cylinder for oversized sleeves - casting was thicker so less chance of oil leak/seep with larger sleeves installed.
I know the stud lengths changed at some point. Besides the 2vs3 bolt alternator and the clutch cover ventilation being diffferent. I don't think there is a difference but we haven't built many 1100s mostly 12s. Pop might know better in this one.
I know we had an 1100 case in my legend car bored to 1200 and it broke the top alternator stand off for alternator stand off. It Was the first race I led in a legends car. Every time I turned right the oil would flow to the left and get on the header and smoke like a son of a gun. Pop was waving me in so I didn't ventilate the crankcase but being 13 or 14 at the time and it being the first shot I had at winning a race outright. I kept trucking. Ran 5-6 laps like that at Sonoma, finally broke an axle and ended up getting towed in. When we drained the oil, the whole half a quart that was left, we decided to rebuild that engine. Sleeve and pistons were all scored up. Welded the stand-off back to the case and ran that motor for another 2-3 years before rebuilding again.
Big win in the Wyatt garage today!
Clearanced the cases for the drag clutch. Took off a bit less material than the last time I did this (9 or 10 years ago!).
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_07_01_22_3_06_12.jpeg)
Then rotated the crank around to check for rod clearance. The rod bolts used in Carillo H-beams used in the original drag engine build hit the basket. Had to grind the head of the aft bolt of the #4 rod to clear the basket. Somewhat less than ideal....
Using XJR rods in this build. The reversed design of the rod bolts give more clearance. It clears! Just barely - but it does clear - and this is with the rod "tipped" more forward than it will be in reality (and there is a bit more room than it looks in the pic).
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_07_01_22_3_02_40.jpeg)
Later this year we'll start "stress testing" the XJR rods with a "bit" of nitrous ....
Robert - missed your post earlier
Good to hear - no reservations at all now with using the 1100 cases! After finding a second minor "issue" with the 1200 cases I started with I decided to jump ship and go with this set of bare 1100 cases I've had in the garage for 10+ years.
Finally got the racebike back out last Sunday!
Very successful as far as a first outing goes - no major electrical or mechanical issues. Lots of teething issues - but working through most of those this week.
Low points - no good clean runs so no real data to move from. High points - first time it's been WOT since getting it running again, and the rear suspension seems to be in the ballpark.
Recap/changes from last time the bike was setup for drag racing:
Old setup
1447 cc engine
Lectron carbs
Dynatek electronics for drag racing - shift counter/shift kill, shift light, 2-step, etc
Hays T-3 clutch (custom based on Hayabusa basket, FJ backing plate, modified FJ clutch hub, Hayabusa frictions, modified FJ steels)
Elka shock setup for Hayabusa pro street with a Linkpro adjustable shock link
New setup - based on what we've been running landspeed with (but with the Hays clutch again)
1297 cc engine (with the thickest sleeves I could run). Plan was to make it easier/less expensive to "recover" from an oops with the nitrous if needed - can simply bore the sleeves out to 1314, then 1350, then 1380 (and probably "retire" it to a street engine then and start all over again...)
EFI - this thing has been through microsquirt (most success with this!), Megasquirt MS3X, Holley HP (never run on track - never really got it fully operational - think the box I got was a lemon - nothing but problem after problem - very expensive education :ireful:) and back to MS3X again. MS3X controls all functions on the bike as a single integrated system.
2 stages of nitrous - eventually plan to progress a small shot from the hit, the progress a large shot through the gears.
Hays T-3 clutch - I never fully got a handle on the clutch tune. Researched my butt off on this, went back through my old tuning notes and think I found the error of my ways...)
Elka drag shock and Linkpro - never got a handle on the rear suspension tune - was either too soft and the shock would bottom on launch and then spin like crazy. Then swapped springs and too stiff - never would bite on launch and would spin. Found that issue too I think - the heavier spring was an inch too long - way too much pre-load.
Chris, assuming the stars align and all your systems play nice, what ET's do you expect? Mid to low 9's?
Pat - yes, hoping to go deep into the nines Will take some time to work up to it. Ultimate goal is to take the drag strip setup and tone down the launch a little and let it rip on the half mile! Really, for the speeds I want in the half - the speed required in the quarter should put the times down in the eights - but that'll require a bit of learning on my part for the clutch and suspension tuning! I haven't had enough of a handle on it to even find the nine yet!
Made it back out to the track again this past Sunday. Last chance for this year.
Tried to fix all the gremlins/teething problems from the first outing the prior Sunday.
Datalog cutting out during the run - hard to tune without good info! Was setup in the software to datalog anytime RPMs are over 800. Installed a push button and indicator light to manually start and stop logging.
Air shifter issues - could have been several issues - think it was a combination of air supply problems and clutch problems. Replaced the pressure regulator (old one was 12 years old) and added a pressure sensor to the system so I can datalog pressure going into the shift solenoid. Also ensured the CO2 bottles were full.
Clutch issues. The clutch seems a lot looser than I previously remembered. Had to add a lot more weight than expected to keep the clutch from slipping until nearly redline on launch. This drag specific clutch is designed so you launch on a 2-step and "throw away" the clutch lever to launch. Then the combination of clutch plate stack, static springs, centrifugal arms and weights, and hold-back springs allow the clutch to progressively engage (slip) at the desired RPM and then lockup as RPMs increase. Get the clutch tuneup right and you are rewarded with consistent launches and long clutch life. Get it wrong and it is a big headache! I've only gotten it right-ish in the past. Last week it wasn't even right-ish. Very frustrating as I set it up per my old notes. Went through the clutch this past week and replaced all the frictions (all the slipping the prior Sunday had worn them all a bit) and found a steel with all the internal teeth bent up about 45 degrees! WTF!? No wonder the clutch didn't work as expected. Also saw evidence on the clutch hub where it looked like the uppermost steel in the clutch pack had "jumped" over the top of the clutch hub possibly.
Run 1 - First run was a repeat of last week. WTF. Tear into the clutch - not happy. I remind myself I wanted a dragbike again ... and here I am tearing into the clutch every freaking pass! Looked like the uppermost steel had "jumped" over the clutch hub again. Time to change something - but what? Go to look through my clutch kit to see what plates I can swap - and can't find the box of clutch tuning stuff. Left it in the garage. First thought is to pack up a go home completely defeated. Then think something must be off for the outermost steel to be that high on the clutch hub. Do the only thing I can think of - pull out the topmost friction and steel and the next friction. Put the steel back in double stacked on the second steel and then stack on just on the frictions. I know this will make the stack shorter than it "should" be - but should solve the problem of the steel jumping the clutch hub. Since a shorted stack height will delay clutch engagement, I also remove the holdback springs from the centrifugal arms to hopefully bring them in sooner to make up for it.
Also take a look at the datalog. It cuts off again at the shift to second like it was doing last weekend. Ugh. But it does capture the launch and what should be the run through first gear. Problem is the clutch slips all the way to the shift point - It pulls some but I have to back off the throttle to get the clutch to engage and get slowly down the track and out of everyone's way.
Datalog below - white is RPM and yellow is speed (very small blip at end at bottom). Timescale was cutoff - but clutch release to RPMs climbing to shift point was .385 seconds and speed was about nil - VERY BAD!
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_01_11_22_6_35_57.jpeg)
Run 2 - Clutch feels a little better riding up to the line. Get lined up and am concerned the clutch is either going to slip to redline again, or maybe slam in hard without the hold back springs on the arms. Only way to find out is to twist the throttle wide open and throw the clutch lever away! The launch actually feels good! Not stellar but a lot better than any of the launches last weekend. Ticket says it went 1.889 60'. That might not be in the ballpark, but I think I can see the ballpark from there!
Run 3 - Need to increase the clutch height - but don't have a way to do that now since I left the clutch plates at home. Alternatively I can try adding washers on the arms to bring the clutch in more aggressively - also not an option with the clutch tuning parts left at home too. Only thing to try is raising the launch RPMs to bring in the clutch a little quicker (as long as it doesn't try to creep at that higher setting). Increased 2 step from 5,000 to 5,500. Feels about the same as last launch - but the ticket shows it slowed to 60' to 1.990. Now that it is launching OK, I now notice how slow the rest of the run feels on just motor. Forgot to start the datalog when lining up.
Run 4 - Increasing the 2-step didn't help, so try decreasing it to 4,500. Also decide to spray the first stage of nitrous to test that system. First stage is set up with a small jet - about 12 hp - and is set to engage 2.5 seconds after launch, so I don't expect much improvement (mostly just a system check). Car in the other lane before us blows the back window out at the top end of the track, so we all shut down while they clean the broken glass off the track. When I restart and line up again forget to activate the datalog and the nitrous. 60' was 1.946 so it's a little better, but not much of a change. Trying to get in more runs before I have to leave means I'm not getting as much cool down time - extra heat in the clutch and oil also effects how the clutch behaves and tends to make it loosen up a bit.
Datalog from this one shows the clutch engaging and actually pulling the engine back down a little while the speed is coming up smoothly. Takes 3.257 seconds from clutch release until RPMs climb to the shift point and speed is up appropriately. On the left side where the white line is flat is where it is on the 2-step. The sudden increase in RPM is where the clutch is released. Then the line curves over where the clutch is starting to engage and the yellow line begins to increase as the bike starts to move. As the clutch locks up the RPMs start to climb as the bike continues to accelerate. Compare this to run1 and you can see the BIG difference.
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_01_11_22_6_36_28.jpeg)
Run 5 - last one for the day. Decide I'm going to go for it. I plan to use both stages of nitrous - first stage at the launch and second stage (30 hp jets) 2.5 seconds after launch. Never used nitrous on the launch before - I think I know how it will react, but won't really know until I try it! Definitely feels like a better launch and runs better down the track. Ticket says 1.681 60' and 10.96 at 123.63 mph in the quarter mile. Nothing to brag about - but MUCH happier to go into winter on those numbers and knowing there are a few things working right.
Datalog from this one shows the effect of increased torque from the nitrous (12 hp shot). Same clutch settings but the clutch flashes up about 1000 RPM higher than last time. Takes 2.535 seconds from clutch release to shift point with speed coming up too. Looks like the tire might have been trying to slip - the yellow line is a lot less smooth - but didn't feel it in the seat of the pants.
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_01_11_22_6_37_28.jpeg)
Biggest win for the day though is the rear suspension - never even had to think about adjusting it or "fixing" it. When I first setup the dragbike I used the 650 pound spring that came with the shock and tried to use the adjustable linkage to stiffen up the suspension. Not enough adjustment - spring was too soft, causing the rear shock to bottom out on launch and the back tire would simply spin. Replaced the spring with a 950 pound spring and the suspension was too stiff despite adjusting the linkage all the way the other direction. When I swapped springs again - turned out the 950 pound spring was also 1" longer and had way too much preload. The new setup is an 850 pound spring the correct length. Now with the rear suspension in the ballpark, I can focus on a good clutch setup and getting the clutch tune in the ballpark. Then the real fun begins!
I'm old school, a 10 second slip is worthy of pat on the back - well done, good stuff!
Made a couple updates to the bike last week based off the previous outing.
First was adding a solid state relay to activate the shift solenoid. Almost every datalog cuts off at the first shift. I'm guessing the solenoid is generating some electrical noise and feeding that back into the ECU when the spoil de-powers. The traditional why to deal with this is a diode across the power and ground wires o the solenoid. I ended up with two extra solid state relays and went that route instead to completely isolate the electrical connection between the solenoid and ECU.
Second was shimming the clutch hub out from the basket to allow the shorter clutch stack to be used without having to order a bunch of thick friction plates or double stack several steel plates. Most importantly the stack is now short enough it should eliminate the possibility of the upper most steel pate from jumping over the top of the clutch hub again. Additionally added some more weight on the centrifugal arms to help increase the clamping force in the clutch at an earlier RPM.
Now I just need to find some place to test the launch again and see if the datalog will record the entire run!
Now I just need to find some place to test the launch again and see if the datalog will record the entire run!
[/quote]
It would be nice if you had a remote rarely used air strip like the nearby on we have in alpine count California. Ours is almost 3/4 of a mile. My son has run his zzr 1200 up to 156 mph and still had ample room to safely shut down and come to a stop.
Quote from: T Legg on November 12, 2022, 08:49:19 PM
Now I just need to find some place to test the launch again and see if the datalog will record the entire run!
It would be nice if you had a remote rarely used air strip like the nearby on we have in alpine count California. Ours is almost 3/4 of a mile. My son has run his zzr 1200 up to 156 mph and still had ample room to safely shut down and come to a stop.
[/quote]
Now that you've said that, there is an airfield about 3 hours away where the manager was very helpful when we needed a grass strip to demonstrate a much increased crosswind limit for a plane we were developing. I'll bet he can at least let us run on part of the taxiway ....
Getting ready to start redoing the electrical on the bike AGAIN - hastily wired in the Megasquirt MS3X into the Holley harness in order to get to the strip this year. Although it works, there are a few things I'm not fully happy with. I think I have found a good deal on an MS3Pro and plan to swap to that (then the MS3X goes into the truck, and the micrpsquirt in the truck goes to the street bike - I think I might have moditis a bit more seriously than I realized!).
Chris, remind me, didn't Randy's original FI system (for the FJ) use the Microsquirt?
Did the Microsquirt use an auto tune function? That would sure make it easier to get a more accurate base tune before you get the bike to the rollers.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 19, 2022, 10:15:57 AM
Chris, remind me, didn't Randy's original FI system (for the FJ) use the Microsquirt?
Did the Microsquirt use an auto tune function? That would sure make it easier to get a more accurate base tune before you get the bike to the rollers.
Yes - the microsquirt was used for both the prototypes. Microsquirt has both the live auto tuning option as well as auto tuning from datalogs (I've always used the latter due to having computer issues while trying to do auto tuning while riding.
To be honest - only had the race bike on the dyno once - and had numerous issues but still had good results - and confirmed my tuning methodology.
All the real tuning on the bike has been done from datalogs and race performance results. AFR targets (and fuel recommendations) have come from Ransom Holbrook (fastest nitrous bike in 1/2 mile, 1 mile, and 1 1/2 mile distances) based on his dyno testing on his Busa with the Ignite 114 fuel and nitrous. "Fat and retarded" still makes nearly max power AND most importantly allows the engine to live. Never had enough good runs after we built up the the higher nitrous levels to try to tweak the ignition to see the effect on the top speed. All things I'm looking to do on the drag strip this time around and more directly applicable to running in the 1/2 mile.
I'll post up more details on the whole tuning process - have had enough tries at it that I can usually get the initial "guess" tune roughed in pretty well fairly quickly now. I am running the racebike in alpha-n mode (uses throttle position and rpm to determine fueling) vice the more common speed density (uses map sensor and rpm) or the ITB mode (individual throttle body) that uses speed density at lower loads and blends into alpha-n at higher loads (this is a specific Megasquirt/microsquirt mode that I'm pretty sure can be accomplished with other ECUs using table blending).
The micro squirt we were trying to use only allowed for tuning via water temperature. So we would have to trick the system into thinking the oil temp was water and read in - Fahrenheit which would start the bike super fat. By doing this it would skew the top end temperature and put the bike into limp mode and make it not rideable. At the time with the outputs and such this is what we had to work with.
I'm sure there is something out there that we make work
but with the bakery, 5 race cars and 2 bikes, 3 motors and countless number of carbs waiting to be built I/we don't have enough time in a day, (I'll admit I try to burn as many hours with the younglings as I can) to get it done at this point in time.
One day....
Got to get them started young even if they are crashing into everything :yahoo:
Look at that smile on that happy boy.....you'll never see a smile like that when they play their video games...
You can tell the age of the kids someone has by how high the handlebars of their bikes leave scratches down the side of the car!
Been busy on the bike the past month - wiring and ECU changes again...
There were some gremlins hidden in the wiring when I yanked out the Holley HP ECU and replaced it with the previous Megasquirt MS3X, and there seemed to be a short/bad connection in the MS3X. I bit the bullet and went with the Megasquirt MS3Pro EVO (I should have gone with the MS3Pro when I chose the Holley HP - bad decision at the time ...).
Big goal was to get it up and running before the end of the year. Finished up the wiring, setting up the software for the new ECU, double checked the outputs, and got it cranked today!
Still need to bundle up the wiring harness, complete some details, and then get to testing when weather allows.
Nice to be "on schedule" for once at this point in the off season.
A belated recap - fired up the bike on the new MS3Pro EVO ECU before Christmas. Big win!
Since then other responsibilities at home have been a higher priority - but have had some time to make some tweaks to the wiring harness (mostly adding pull-up resistors to the crank and rear wheel speed sensors) and starting to tidy up the harness bundling and routing.
Unfortunately- instead of getting things ready for Bandimere and Pueblo drag strips to open up, the bike is stored away for another three months while work takes me to Kenya for the next 90 or so days to conduct flight training for the Kenya Air Force.
Counting down the days until June 16th!
Are you running a tablet or something to help "auto tune" it or are you going off logs only and downloading after runs?
We were running a tablet to so it would tune it self a bit while running but are now making a Pi raspberry dash and it will run race capture and tuner studio. So it will run the "auto tune" without having the separate tablet and we can overlay all the stats/inputs (g force, braking sensors, throttle input, etc, etc) we want on video with race capture.
Also, on your logs, we bought our MS3pro second hand and the previous user had turned a function on to log every single time the power turned on. We had 32gb of logs and 90% of them were worthless. So we added a "logging" light to know when it is logging now and changed it to begin logging after 4,000 rpm is achieved.
There is a new Pidash that runs off the MS3 now as well that is plug and play but it is about $1,000 with the race capture and stuff added on. We are gonna have around $500 in ours, hopefully. :wacko3: This is on the Miata not the EIF setup for the FJ yet.
Robert - on the bike I tend to datalog and then use the VE Analyze functions - it basically "auto tunes" from the datalog. This was due to my old apropos struggling with Autotune. My "new" windows 7 toughbook is capable - but I still prefer to datalog and use the analyze tool for most of the tuning. Once the racebike gets "roughed in" well enough to behave well at part throttle I mostly just focus on WOT and nitrous settings and manually tweak those based on datalogs after each run.
I added a button to trigger the logs and a status light on the fairing panel. The old MS3X had some kind of a power issue where vibrations or something were causing a power hiccup at either launch or on the 1-2 shift and the log would stop. I was using auto log settings originally and went to the manual button to see if it cleared it - nope. Part of the reason for going to the MS3Pro.
I would like to do a good dash like that - but first priority is getting the setup to start running well at the track!
Maybe a dash will be next winters project :pardon: I'd like to see your dash project.
This is it as it sits. I haven't laid carbon before so trying to figure out if I want to do a chopped or twill for the dash cover. Just did a quick test making some 90 degree brackets with chop.
Have to decide if I want to make a buck for it or maybe use some of that high density insulation for a single use lay up.
Now need to buy the race capture and get that setup with the tunerstudio and software from dietpi
Housing laid up. Went with a chop weave as I'm not quite sure how to get the twill to look proper around the corners. Inside is twill. The flats looks good and the twill was nice and straight.... Except for the corners and the bit of chop I still had on the brush when I was tapping the resin into the twill. Figured I wanted to see how the twill laid up and if a bit of chop got on it no biggie it's internal so won't be seen.
https://youtube.com/shorts/veYDlVowavI?feature=share
Dash running. Still waiting on the racecapture stuff to get that all
Programmed in.
Little bit of wet sand and clear and should be good enough.
Robert - what pieces are you using to make up the dash unit? Did you source the raspberry pie and screen and power source separately? The race capture is a road race focused data logger/GPS/lap timer? Are you using the new TunerStudio Dash? Or running tuner studio directly on the raspberry pi?
We sourced everything separately but they do sell a complete pidash kit with everything needed.
We used a pi3. for power we just got a 12v to 5v resistor and split the power to the pi and the screen. The race capture and the tuner studio software are both going to be on a mini SIM card that is connected to the pi. It has Bluetooth so we can Bluetooth everything over to the laptop so we can overlay data on videos also.
race capture will have sector splits, lap times, etc. tuner studio will do the logging and also has the ability to "self learn" based on the TPS, load, afr, etc, at least as I understand it. We haven't really got to do anything else on this yet. It powers up and that's about it as of right now.
Built 20 sets of carbs over the last 3 weeks and had half a dozen race cars and a couple bikes in and out in that time frame as well. We still have 3 more cars in the shop and a bike to do a 17" wheel swap on. So this will be on hold for a bit longer.
Ryan bought all the parts so
I don't know exactly what he got but the screen was made for a pi 3 as it had stand-offs to attach the pi directly to the back.
Thanks Robert - I started researching things and that confirms what I was seeing for this project.
Have you seen the new TS Dash? It is optimized to run as a dash on raspberry pi. Also Dash Echo? It makes your primary dash a server that can have multiple clients all Wi-Fi'd together - like additional dashes and or laptops that can make changes to the tune that are replicated thru all the clients. You could setup the laptop for testing and have it Autotune. Then remove it from the net during a race if rules or safety require. And have an additional dash setup for other nice to have "gauges" - but something you wouldn't need in primary view possibly?
Yea, ts dash is what we are using that is the tuner studio. The dash echo is also what we will be using with the bluetooth and wifi setup, also from tunderstudio.
A little racebike news - FINALLY made it out to Bandimere for test and tune on the 20th. No runs made. Nothing but headaches and frustration.
This year work and home have been crazy and this was the first time I've been able to make it to a test and tune night.
I swapped out the ECU last year after the last outing. I could not get the ECU to log a run past first gear hard to tune without data (and is a good way to tear up engines!). Later during some follow up testing the entire ECU became intermittent. I decided to upgrade the ECU - but keep the same "family" and software. I got it running on the new ECU before Christmas. That was the last I had worked on the bike.
First outing of the year is always the hardest - trying to find all the tools, supplies, and equipment you normally take and get it all loaded up logically. Before loading up the bike I cranked it up - happy with how well it started, and finished loading it and everything else up.
Found the trailer lights not working when I stopped for gas. Great - had to replace the wiring on the truck side last year. Guess it's time for the trailer side this time. Lose another hour plus at Walmart rigging up some temporary lights.
Finally make it to the track and get things unloaded. Warm up the bike while I get my gear ready to go thru tech inspection. Nope. Bike cranks well, but won't keep running. Can't get it sorted trackside - but did use the full 4 hours trying!
Took nearly a week to get to the bottom of it - bottom line it was a clogged fuel filter before the pump. (I won't go into detail all the other issues getting to that point...but includes new adjustable fuel pressure regulator, manual pressure gauge to compare the the pressure sensor, a corrupt?burned out? USB adapter, trial run on yet another ECUs, etc). As suggested, I run two filters - a course one pre-pump and a fine one post-pump. That's the way it is supposed to be .... I misunderstood the filter ratings and put the fine filter pre-pump and the course on post-pump. DOH! Well that explains why the pump was a lot louder than I expected ....
Side note - trailer light issue was the truck again - eventually found a wire that had "gone black" on the inside. Replaced it and everything works properly now.
Bottom line, finally have the bike up and running and ready to take to test and tune next Wednesday weather permitting!
Thought I'd post a little about setting up the tune for the racebike.
Big picture for tuning from scratch - first do whatever it takes to get the bike to run long enough to get up to temperature. Well, first is really get everything setup properly in the ECU, check your ignition timing with a strobe, and load a "best guess" tune.
Once you get the engine up to temp the real tuning begins. Up to this point I am simply adjusting the entire fuel map richer or leaner by multiplying the entire map by the same factor. Reason being is I assume if the idle area of my "best guess" is rich or lean, then the rest of the map will be too - and if not, it is easy enough to get it roughed in anyway. Setting the idle really just involves tweaking the 9 or 12 or 16 cells in the lower left hand corner to give the smoothest and highest idle possible. I DO NOT adjust timing for the highest idle. I want the timing to be a few degrees lower - it will help to make a more stable idle. One "trick" to a smooth idle is to set a column below your idle speed and add a few degrees of timing and a little more fuel - that way if the engine "bogs down" a little the added timing and fuel helps it to recover to the desired idle speed.
Once the engine idles well the next step is to get the engine to free-rev cleanly. This is mostly adjusting the fuel in the cells up and right of the idle region so the engine doesn't choke or bog when you try to give it some throttle.
At this point you are ready to start some slow easy riding to datalog and start fleshing out the fuel table. This is where the "Autotune" capabilities come into play!
I mostly use the Megasquirt family of ECU's and is what I am most familiar with and the examples I will use here. I have also used Holley HP and have also done a little open-source tuning for a turbo Subaru. Tuning in all cases is basically the same - USING A WIDEBAND O2 SENSOR (or exhaust gas analyzer on a dyno) - compare the AFR the engine is currently running at to the desired AFR and adjust the fuel by the same percentage as the error. A little bit of the "magic" comes from knowing what AFR you are shooting for. There are good generalities to follow and will yield good results. Some "families" of engines might like a little more or less here and there, and even within the same family of engines, two "identical" engines might want a little different setting to make the last percent or two of horsepower. But following the general rules of thumb will get you a very good running engine.
On some dynos you can "simply" run the engine at a given throttle setting and RPM and tweak the fuel real time to maximize power and then go to the next cell. Not so easy to do while road tuning - especially on a motorcycle! This is where "autotune" comes into play. There are a couple different "flavors" of autotune - those that work "real time" and those that work off of datalogs. I actually prefer the datalog type. Why? Well, I originally had a laptop that would die quickly when it was unplugged. So I learned to datalog to an SD card or small tablet and work from that. There are also times when I notice I have some "garbage" data for some reason (usually caused by something I did or changed or forgot to undo...) and it is nice not to have that bad data tweak away from a better tune. Also, most autotune functions will create a "lumpy" map - it is simply the nature of the beast in how the ECU interpolates between cells and how a given datalog will not evenly hit every cell in the table. So I like to review the recommended changes and "smooth" out the peaks and holes in the table.
The Megasquirt series ECU's use two main pieces of software - Tuner Studio to interface with the ECU and MegaLog Viewer to work with the datalogs. The 3rd generation Megasquirt ECUs utilize internal SD card data logging.
This is the datalog from the first "test track" session on the racebike today (viewed in MegaLog Viewer):
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_23_7_58_25_0.png)
You select the datapoints to view on the left, see the graphs in the middle, and the selected tables from the tune on the right.
The VE Analyze button brings up this screen:
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_23_7_58_25_1.png)
Run Analysis will then churn through your datalog and compare how the engine ran to how you wanted it to run (your desired AFR Table).
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_23_7_58_25_2.png)
And then make the recommended changes to the fuel table you can accept or reject.
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_23_7_58_26_3.png)
Your fuel table should (almost always!) increase up and to the right. As you can see the recommended table changes create some places where the numbers get smaller going up or right or make big jumps between cells. The is where you "smooth" those areas, accept the changes, and go make another datalog. The smoothed table loaded into the tune as seen in TunerStudio and ready to load in the ECU:
(https://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_30_09_23_7_58_26_4.png)
How is it "safe" to take test rides with an untuned engine? The trick is the wideband O2 sensor and a large correction factor it is allowed to make while in "closed loop". I have mine set to use the wideband to try to correct to the desired AFR any time it is above my idle range - and I have given it the authority to add or subtract up to 50% of the calculated fuel. As I get the tune closer to where it should be I can decrease that authority. There are discussions about whether or not to run "closed loop" at high power settings. I am of the school to say "yes!" - all my "issues" when having a wideband O2 sensor give bad readings have always run the tune rich. That's bad in that it can richen up so much that the engine will die - but it won't burn up a piston or eat a head gasket! Most other failures I've seen while engines are running involve a fuel pump starting to fail or a fuel filter getting clogged- both of which gan lean out an engine enough to burn a piston or take out a head gasket if the ECU doesn't compensate for the rising AFR by trying to add more fuel.
While most of that went over my head, it is good for the update, thank you!
It's been a good year
I did make it out to Bandimere again on Wednesday night. The last Wednesday test and tune of the season. Started with a weather delay while they dried the track - and ended an hour and half early due to weather.
Only got two runs in - but it was a successful outing. Most importantly - the datalogger works! The tune was not too far off - only 5% correction on the first run.
Planning on two more test sessions - Friday and Sunday this week. Plan is to start working on the nitrous tune ups.
I have an AEM gauge and a wide band o2 sensor I'm going to temporarily use on the FJ to set up running pods, a bit of an over kill maybe but for the sake of welding a bung in it'll be stupid not to use it.
I got the idea from the lads on the ZRXOA forum, they've been running CKV40's on their ZRX's and spent years, and hundreds of dollars on dyno time setting up the carbs getting the bikes to run cleanly when one of them went the o2 route and set their AFR's via the gauge, job done, sure a dyno can tell you what BHP you've achieved but for a road bike a safe useable tune without spending a fortune on dyno time makes shelling out on a o2 sensor and gauge a no brainer.
Smart move in my opinion. My first O2 sensor use was with my FCR flat slides, and then later on the drag bike with lectern carbs - both before I used it on the EFI system!
Did some testing and troubleshooting on the race bike earlier this week - just couldn't shake the feeling something was off on the second (and last) run last time out.
Turns out the 1st stage nitrous solenoid was not opening. You could hear and feel the coil (and I assume plunger) operating, but the seat was not opening. Replaced the solenoid and it is working now - with a strong enough plume it nearly snatched the solenoid out of my hand when I tested it!
Going to a private track rental on Friday - limited to 150 vehicles - so I hope to get plenty of runs to start working my way up through the nitrous settings and tweak the clutch and suspension tunes and ECU settings as needed.
Plan for Friday is first run spray a small shot (12 HP) of nitrous on the 1st stage right at the launch.
Second run add some weigh to the centrifugal clutch arms and spray same 12HP at launch and follow with 30HP on second stage about 2.5 seconds later.
If all is going well on launch - up the 1st stage to the 17HP jets (and start doing burnouts - think there will some traction issues) and up 2nd stage to 37HP jets .
Fourth run we'll up the nitrous jets again, but go from "fixed hit" on the nitrous (you just go "ON" with the nitrous solenoid) to a progressive ramp (PWM the solenoid - start maybe at 30% and progress to 100% over a second or two). Trick here will be tuning the curve for the added fuel flow -when you PWM the nitrous solenoid, the flow rate % doesn't match the PWM duty cycle - - 30% duty cycle might be 20% nitrous flow or might be 40% nitrous flow. And as the duty cycle increases, the nitrous flow tends to increase faster - 70% duty cycle might be closer to 100% nitrous flow. The trick to stay out of piston destroying detonation is to remove timing and add fuel at the rate demanded by the actual nitrous flow. As always - we'll begin rich on fuel and retarded on timing and tweak our way to the desired settings.
Fingers crossed we've worked out all the bugs again
Made it out to Bandimere this morning for a private rental event. Basically a promoter rents the track and sells tickets. The good thing about this - it was limited to 150 vehicles. That meant reasonably short wait times in the staging lanes. Even taking my time and getting out of the cow suit between rounds (it was upper 70's and sunny today!) I still got in 6 1/2 runs. Also took time to eat lunch and pickup a couple t-shirts commemorating the 65 years at Bandimere drag strip (they are closing at the end of this season - - plan to build a new facility further away from town again).
First run - plan to leave clutch and suspension alone and run small 12 HP shot on the first stage of nitrous. Bike behaves and runs well! Finally - a good starting point!
It goes a 1.73 60', 6.92 @ 102 mph 1/8 mile and 10.81 @ 126 mph in the 1/4 mile.
Second run - plan the keep 12 HP in first stage and add 30 HP on second stage of nitrous. These are both "fixed" hits - simply opens the nitrous solenoid full "ON". 1st stage is triggered when I let go of the clutch, and 2nd stage timed for 2.3 seconds later (just after the shift to second gear). Again, run feels good and it goes 1.73 60', 6.76 @ 109 mph 1/8 mile and 10.40 @ 132 mph 1/4 mile. Noticed some shifting issues to 4th and/or 5th. Looked at the datalogs - I could see something weird, but not sue why. Checked air pressure - it was done around 90 psi. I upped the regulator to give 120 psi and added another .01 to the kill time for the air shift (from .08 to .09 seconds).
Third run - swapped nitrous jets - 17 HP 1st stage and 37 HP seconds stage. Run felt very smooth (too smooth it turns out ....) forgot to arm the nitrous system after a somewhat long wait in the staging lanes for track cleanup. Bike went 1.90 60', 7.39 @ 97 mph 1/8 mile, and 11.47 @ 120 mph 1/4 mile. Trying to look for the silver lining in that grey cloud - it was the best pass this combo has made on just engine...
Fourth run - do what I planned for the third run! Run goes well! 1.66 60', 6.59 @ 110 mph 1/8 mile, 10.16 @ 137 mph 1/4 mile. Yes! And I've still got lots of nitrous jets left...
Fifth run - swap nitrous jets again - and change the nitrous operation from "fixed" hit to progressive (solenoids are PWM - pulse width modulated - to soften the "hit"). 1st stage is 22 HP ramped up from 60% to 100% in a second, and 2nd stage is 47 HP ramped up from 60% to 100% in 2 seconds (after a 2.1 second delay ~ after the 1-2 shift). Also did a clutch adjustment - added .010" shim under all 6 static springs, and used longer bolts to add 2 more washers (they act as weight) to the centrifugal arms. Want to make sure the clutch doesn't start slipping when RPM drops on the shifts and am also trying to "pull down" the RPMs on launch since more power means more slip. I also want to see how the much the clutch changes change the launch. Run feels good! Look at the time slip after getting back to the pits and getting the cooling fan blowing on the engine. YES! It went 1.62 60', 6.43 @ 113 1/8 mile, and 9.90 at 140 mph 1/4 mile!!! MONKEY -> BACK = OFF! (No offense Mark LOL!)
FINALLY RAN A 9 SECOND QUARTER!!! :yahoo:
So - pack up and go home?! Hell no! Be smart, make small changes to the tune but keep everything the same to repeat? Hell no!
Sixth run (this was the 1/2 run .....) Swap nitrous jets again - this time 1st stage 30 HP and second stage 65 HP. Extended the ramp times a little and lower the start percentages a little (will have to dig the details out of the tune files - don't remember those details now). Line up, launches good - and DIES! Crap! Move out of the racing lane and immediately look down at the safety lanyard (had this happen once at the Colorado Mile) - it pulled out during the launch. CRAP! Insert the plug back in, restart the bike and ride to the end of the track. CRAP! CRAP! CRAP! It is very close to the end of the track rental and don't know if I'll have time to line up for another run. Luckily they have not closed the staging lanes when I get back (but I do end up being the last one for that lane!).
Seventh run (or sixth "real run) - do what I planned for the aborted run. Back tire spins HARD on launch this time and I get SIDEWAYS quickly. Back out and get is straightened out before going into the other lane and quickly get back into it. Needless to say, it was not another 9. 60' is 2.09, 7.58 @ 108 1/8 mile and 11.12 @ 139 mph 1/4 mile. It sure what happened on the launch sine the previous one left hard (until it died). Maybe I didn't pick a good spot to line up? Maybe the solenoid I replaced isn't suitable for PWM and didn't behave this time? Maybe I just got luck on the previous launch? Need to adjust suspension? For Sunday I'll take the smart (and "safe" and lazy) way out and just go back to the last settings for the 1st stage of nitrous - and keep working on increasing the 2nd stage!
Also for Sunday I'll try going up one tooth on the countershaft sprocket. If I get up to the speeds I'll like to get to, I'm going to need some more gear :)
Short update from Sunday - this was as much a "social" event as it was a "track session" for me. Did get two runs in. First run decided to keep the 30 HP jets in first stage but start the progression at a smaller percentage and build u over a longer time. Still spun pretty hard on the launch. Stayed with the 65 HP shot in the second stage - just tweaked the overly rich settings down a little bit. The 60' time was 2.144 seconds (without spinning it is usually a 1.6 or 1.7). 1/8 mile 7.315 sec @ 113.40 mph and 1/4 mile 10.735 sec @ 144.94 mph.
Noticed a couple things on that run - bike ran a little rough on the return road; and when I looked at the datalogs the added speed had me crossing the stripe around 9700 rpm. With the XJR rods and balanced crank I'm good with pushing it to 10500 rpm at the end, but for testing prefer to keep the rpms down a bit. The bike was geared 18/43. Decide to change to 19/43. Also took a look at the plugs to see if I've nipped one (melted the electrode off). What I find is the electrode on #2 looks a little rough maybe and has closed up the gap?! Think for a second - how can the pistons be hitting the spark plug? Could I have been that careless installing the plug. Then I think - if the electrode got hot enough to "almost" melt, then combustion pressure alone could have closed up the gap? Go to put in new plugs one step colder - they are in the garage. Great. Decide the swap plugs 1 and 2 and run again to see what it does.
Second run reduce the first stage nitrous jet to 22 HP, and up the second stage to 85 hp.
Run goes smoothly. 60' is 1.745 sec - not surprised with the lower gearing and keeping the gentler ramp with the smaller nitrous jet. 1/8 mile 6.523 @ 117.23 mph and 1/4 mile 9.882 @ 144.63 mph!
Very relieved to "back up" the 9.90 pass from Friday :good2:
Had a little time this morning to check the plugs before heading to the airport for work again. It nipped the plug in the #2 cylinder. When I get back from this trip I'll pull the fuel injectors and get them cleaned and flowed again - make sure the #2 injector hasn't gotten gunked-up or has developed a bad spray pattern.
Quote from: fintip on July 29, 2013, 12:58:51 AM
My understanding of clutches was expanded today.
However, I still didn't catch a lot of that. Deep. Someone obviously knows their shit.
When are you going to hit a nine already?!
More than 10 years later! :drinks:
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Quote from: fj1289 on March 23, 2010, 02:19:23 AM
Andy is spot on about setting up the bike – strapping the front and lowering the rear are cheap, easy, and quickly reversed. The first couple of times I went to the track it was at stock height. Strapping the front and lowering the back made a big difference – not only in performance but more importantly in how it felt. Much more controllable and predictable. With the stock engine (with carbs, 4-1, and Dyna ignition) I only raced on 1/8 mile tracks. My best were some 6.8's at 103mph – that roughly equates to a 10.7 or 10.8 1/4 mile. Best run I made was with the used 1314 kit (that didn't make a real good ring seal) and a ported head with oversized valves and mild cams. Turned a couple of 10.79's at 125mph, but this was at Bandimere (Denver, CO) when the DA (density altitude) was 7600'(about a 25% horsepower loss)! The NHRA correction factors put that at a 9.75 at sea level. Truth be known I'd probably would had run closer to a 10.0 a sea level – don't know how well I would have launched with the additional horsepower!
Yes, I did have a lockup clutch (single stage) from Pro Chassis Racing along with the quick access cover. I lost the clutch and billet basket when the trailer was stolen. Luckily I didn't have the cover in the trailer. Nobody (besides PCR) makes a lockup for the FJ anymore. [I'm not real inpressed with either the quality of work nor the customer support from PCR] I looked at converting to a Busa basket and hub, but couldn't find anyone who could machine the FJ transmission shaft spline pattern in the Busa basket. I did find someone who could do custom heavy duty billet transmission shafts and could put a Busa nose on the FJ shaft, but was very pricey. Especially when you added in the cost of the Busa lock up and billet basket too. I ended up biting the bullet and went big on the clutch. Tim Hayes machined a hybrid clutch – uses FJ hub and steels with a Busa basket and frictions. That thing is definitely metal working porn!
I'm keeping both front rotors. One, I can probably use a little extra weight out there, and two, I don't ever want to come up short on braking power – especially if there is a short shut down area. Also, I've tried a single caliper with a master sized for two – downright scary – no feel to it at all, "very wooden" feeling. A lot easier to keep the extra caliper than find the right master cylinder.
Got the frame back on the wheels! Still have to fab some spacers for the shock linkage and the swingarm bolt. I'll be using stock Busa rearsets mounted on aluminum brackets to set them back about 4 inches and down about 2 inches.
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16" Honda CBR rim and rotors with low profile tire. I was able to lower the fender 1.25 inches – more clearance to the lower triple and the fairing to get lower!
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_26_2.jpeg)
Flipped the lower triple clamp so I could raise the fork tubes higher and the clamps would still properly grip the wide portion of the fork tubes.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_27_4.jpeg)
You can see how adjusting the LinkPro changes the leverage ratio on the shock to firm or soften the rear suspension. Adjustable dogbones then allow you to reset the rear ride height.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/171_23_03_10_12_37_27_3.jpeg)
Hi
Still trying to work out the best way to attach my shock etc. The 1080 spring will definitely require me to have a relay machined, as the narrower Hagon spring already contacts the arm.
In your post you mention that the adjustment on the LinkPro allows you to harden/soften the damping, my question is which direction has what effect?
Thanks
Mel
With any adjustable link or any link you swap or fab - it will only change the leverage ratio between the wheel movement and the shock travel.
If you are going to use a different ratio linkage I would suggest leaving the stock spring on the shock (assuming it is fairly well matched to the shock damping). If you swap a heavier spring but leave stock damping, the spring will overwhelm the shock - the linkage ratio won't effect just one aspect of shock performance - it will effect them all equally I assume...
On the Linkpro - the more you move the lower pivot point forward the stiffer the suspension gets. The more you move the lower point to the rear the softer the suspension gets.
Tony Foale used to have some software for evaluating motorcycle suspension design and function. Might be worth a google search.
Good luck!
Been working on a writeup on the plan for the racebike this year - ironing out some recurring issues and what I think will solve them...
Then a couple days ago read a post on Facebook - the drag strip in Pueblo CO will be down for the season (at least the fist part of it) due to damage to the asphalt surface - looks like winter was not kind to it. Don't know how long it will take the city to solicit proposals, dedicate funding, and get the track going again? Past years this news wouldn't be so bad - but Bandimere drag strip just outside of Denver closed at the end of last season :dash2:
So, Bandimere was 45-60 minutes away and usually ran multiple times each week. Pueblo is 1 hr 45 mins away and usually runs a couple times each month. Now the closest drag strip will be Julesburg, CO about 3 hours away, and not sure how often they run.
UGH! Definitely need to get the street bike back up so I can troubleshoot some of these issues on it too!
Silver lining - if I get the issues sorted I'll shift focus to the 1/2 mile or 1 mile races possibly ...
Well, there still might be some hope. New Facebook post today - after further investigation and bringing in some experts and sponsors - sounds like they will try to make temporary repairs for this year. Plan is to make the temp repairs and have some cars make test passes and see if they can safely run in that condition for this year. The track said they should have results by May 6th ... fingers crossed
Quote from: fj1289 on February 21, 2024, 06:34:43 PMWith any adjustable link or any link you swap or fab - it will only change the leverage ratio between the wheel movement and the shock travel.
If you are going to use a different ratio linkage I would suggest leaving the stock spring on the shock (assuming it is fairly well matched to the shock damping). If you swap a heavier spring but leave stock damping, the spring will overwhelm the shock - the linkage ratio won't effect just one aspect of shock performance - it will effect them all equally I assume...
On the Linkpro - the more you move the lower pivot point forward the stiffer the suspension gets. The more you move the lower point to the rear the softer the suspension gets.
Tony Foale used to have some software for evaluating motorcycle suspension design and function. Might be worth a google search.
Good luck!
I found a way to allow the use of the shock on with the stock linkage. I mounted the arm/shock without the dogbones in place and roughly marked where the spring contacted the brace on the arm. Using a flap wheel on my drill I removed some material, refitted the arm, checked clearance and repeated, was a long process but it fitted in the end.
Sweet! That's a similar method that was documented somewhere in the past - I think they used a mill - but same idea and result.