Back in my days of working on Sprint Cars, we used a/s on everything. I specifically remember using it on the large rear wheel nuts. But I also remember having to spray the threads with WD-40 because the a/s dried out and I could barely turn the nut by hand.
As anyone who has ever used it can attest, it only takes a small amount and the typical container of the stuff can last 100 years or more. It also gets everywhere and spreads itself like a virus! Days later, I'd scrub traces of it off of the back of my hand, or elbow, or other location that it migrated to. I swear that the stuff would leap off of the car when you walked by.
Has anyone else had a problem with the a/s drying up on them? The a/s that I used on my spark plugs had definitely dried up. I have used it on the caliper mounting bolts and also observed that it dries out in that application over time. Becoming a gooey substance that makes the bolts difficult to turn.
Do I need to throw my batch away and get a new 100 year jar of it? Maybe I can hand it down to my son. :-)
I don't have an answer to your question as I rarely use a/s. But I am confident that a/s comes in different qualities from top notch stuff to boogers in a jar. And can also attest that the copper stuff used where I used to work got everywhere. It never washes out, stains the skin, and will likely still be trace elements found years later during my autopsy.
Hooligan,
I had a can of anti seize that dried out some. I mixed in a few ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil and added the oil in until I got the consistency that I was looking for. It is once again ready to "mysteriously" find its way to unexpected spots in my world.
Not all anti-seize are the same. I have three types of non copper anti-seize in my tool box. Each one has a different consistency. The Loctite stick is the driest and the Misty is the wettest. The Permatex and the Misty both state they work up to 2000+F degrees. The Misty is interesting as it is in an aerosol can and uses a foam pressure applicator similar to a liquid shoe shine bottle. I have never used any on my spark plugs.
The photo shows the consistency difference.
Fred
I use a crayon stick version that I've had beyond memory. There is enough of the wrapper left that I could make out the product name Thread Magic and I'm pleased to find they are still in business because I don't see it in my local stores. Just one or two light drags at right angles to the threads of my spark plugs in cars, vans and motorcycles, never more. Not much else I use if for.
http://agscompany.com/product/thread-magic-anti-seize-wax-stick-43-oz-card/ (http://agscompany.com/product/thread-magic-anti-seize-wax-stick-43-oz-card/)
The only anti-seize that I have ever used is the Permatex High-Temp stuff, and I've never had it dry out on me.
Bill
Quote from: FJmonkey on May 01, 2017, 03:37:50 PM
...boogers in a jar.
https://www.google.com/search?q=boogers+in+a+jar&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS706US706&oq=boogers+in+a+jar&aqs=chrome..69i57.5783j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=boogers+in+a+jar&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS706US706&oq=boogers+in+a+jar&aqs=chrome..69i57.5783j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2871/34364696446_77aa20f1e2.jpg)
A budding career as a mechanic in ruins after this young lad fell into the grip of Anti Seize at a young age.
Noel
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 01, 2017, 03:25:52 PM
Back in my days of working on Sprint Cars, we used a/s on everything. I specifically remember using it on the large rear wheel nuts. But I also remember having to spray the threads with WD-40 because the a/s dried out and I could barely turn the nut by hand.
As anyone who has ever used it can attest, it only takes a small amount and the typical container of the stuff can last 100 years or more. It also gets everywhere and spreads itself like a virus! Days later, I'd scrub traces of it off of the back of my hand, or elbow, or other location that it migrated to. I swear that the stuff would leap off of the car when you walked by.
Has anyone else had a problem with the a/s drying up on them? The a/s that I used on my spark plugs had definitely dried up. I have used it on the caliper mounting bolts and also observed that it dries out in that application over time. Becoming a gooey substance that makes the bolts difficult to turn.
Do I need to throw my batch away and get a new 100 year jar of it? Maybe I can hand it down to my son. :-)
Yup
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/2200_02_05_17_9_22_26.jpeg)
Anti seize does have good applications just not in high temp environments. I used copper based anti seize on stone working machines with great success. These machines were exposed to direct water stream for cooling and dust removal but no high temps. On the other hand EVERY time I purchase spark plugs at any auto parts store the kid behind the counter informs me I also need the small package of anti seize for a buck or two more. Most of these kids don't know anything about cars, trucks or bikes.
Dave
David,
It is funny this topic should come up now. Just this past week I weighed in on the use of anti-seize on spark plugs and how I do not recommend it: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16749.msg169510#msg169510 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16749.msg169510#msg169510)
I think you might have seen that post too. In that post is has been said the anti-seize does not separate or break down in high temperature applications such as spark plugs or exhaust systems.
In fact I had a race car customer at the shop on last Friday for a valve adjustment. This guy is some "rocket scientist/quantum engineer" working at the Lawrence Livermore Lab (https://www.llnl.gov/ (https://www.llnl.gov/)). He does everything on his race car with a torque wrench as we worked on his car. He torqued the valve cover bolts, spark plugs, cylinder head studs and lug nuts by his request so he "knew they are right" instead of having me tighten everything. After his two stripped spark plug holes, he is going to follow my advice and not use it on the spark plugs.
But, then there is this post where it has been said their anti-seize has separated and they have had to add oil to it to regain the consistency they are needing.
I have a bottle of Permatex "Advanced Formula" anti-size that I have had for only two or three years. But, even sitting on the bench for a couple of days, when I open the lid and remove the brush I can see the oil "pooled" on top of the compound. Obviously this is more prominent during the hotter summer months.
I will continue to use the anti-seize on the idle mixture screws of the FJ carbs to prevent the brass screw from seizing in the aluminum carb body, but that is where I limit the usage.
The only thing I can say is, I guess not all "anti-seize" compounds are created equally, but I do confer the stuff does get everywhere...
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on May 02, 2017, 07:43:55 PM
...He torqued the valve cover bolts, spark plugs... After his two stripped spark plug holes, he is going to follow my advice and not use it on the spark plugs.
Which is exactly what I said. Working from memory here, most bolt torque values are for "clean, dry threads." If you oil the threads, you must reduce the torque valve by (roughly) 25%. If you use anti-seize, you must reduce the torque value by 50%.
By torquing the plugs to the book value, your customer over-tensioned the plugs.
Bill
Quote from: CutterBill on May 02, 2017, 08:18:37 PM
By torquing the plugs to the book value, your customer over-tensioned the plugs.
Bill
Perfect, the mystery has been solved but the question still remains...
The threads do not "strip", like those being over-torqued. The aluminum galls in the steel threads of the spark plug and the threads are then "pulled" out of the head. So....
What causes the aluminum to gall in the spark plug threads?Thus my original statement; "
Quote from: racerrad8 on October 10, 2016, 01:57:07 PM
The problem I see with anti-seize is as the combustion temps are enough to carbonize the oil of the anti-seize, the only thing left in the threads is the powered metal component. That then galls the threads on the way out, pulling the weaker aluminum from the head.
Randy - RPM
I will have to snap a photo of the next spark plug I see with the aluminum transfer into the spark plug threads.
I have never used anti-seize on my spark plugs in my 23+ years of racing and working on the FJ engine and I have never had a spark plug thread issue on any of my engines.
In fact, if the anti-seize was the best application for the spark plugs, I would believe it would be listed in the GYSM. But the GYSM says, "clean the grime from the threads"...(see pics) The guy this past week was torquing to 150 inch pounds since his foot pound torque wrench does not go down low enough for accurate torque measurement. They also have the "compression" method of torque as well.
Randy - RPM
well , as having followed this particular topic as it travels thru different threads..ha ha.. see what I did there? :mocking:
Having worked as an engine machinist in a previous career I have found that the Anti-sieze in debate currently MAY cause pulled threads in Aluminum heads where the spark plugs are concerned.
I have repaired numerous heads where this was the issue. now , having said that you will be elated to learn that this particular problem only occurs with . extreme abuse of the engine.
so unless you are always at redline on your FJ and never check your sparkplugs you have nothing to worry about.
some members here don't rev above 6k.
Quote from: Mark Olson on May 03, 2017, 01:00:54 AM
some members here don't rev above 6k.
:blush: :pardon:
Randy,
I added ths post to avoid further cluttering up the broken alternator bolt thread.
This appears to be another polarizing topic with well thought out reasoning on both sides. Bill's explanation of a combination of overtightening and heat make a compelling argument for thread failure. However, I've installed a lot of spark plugs over the years and that's the only one that ever stripped or pulled threads. I never use a torque wrench to install plugs. I know the feeling of the crush washer compressing on a new plug. Lightly seated then three 1/4 turns of the wrench have always worked for me. If the plug is used, then ~1/4 turn past slightly seated. And, I always use the same wrench.
And, I like to think I know my way around a wrench. I've been using them since I was old enough to pick one up. I grew up in an environment where we were always working on cars, trucks, motorcycles, lawnmowers, etc. In my teens, we were That House that all the neighbors hated. Every weekend cars would start lining the street. Friends coming over to install headers, intake manifolds, swap carbs, install transmission shift kits (don't ever do that), and of course tune ups. I split the case on my first motorcycle engine (100cc Hodaka) at age 12 and rebuilt my first small block Chevy at age 15.
I've drained enough oil to fill a small lake and installed more spark plugs than I care to count. I never used a torque wrench since most times you barely had enough room to get the plug started by hand and no room for a large torque wrench. Number of stripped drain plugs = ZERO. Number of stripped spark plugs = ONE, my '85 FJ being to only plug I ever stripped. My oil drain bolt still has the factory washer on it.
In fact, the last time I stripped out threads it was done while using a torque wrench. I was reassembling a set of late model FJ dual piston calipers and using the torque wrench to torque the halves to spec. The wrench never clicked and the bolt suddenly became quite easy to turn. It was an easy Heli-Coil fix, but the feeling of threads stripping is kind of like taking a punch to the stomach, it's a queasy ugly feeling, especially if you don't have a set of dies/taps or the correct Heil-Coil kit. Prior to that caliper the last thing I stripped was the stock oil filter "drain" bolt. And who hasn't done that? :-)
I also don't abuse my motor
I will continue to use Anti-Seize but not on spark plugs. I just don't trust it in that application anymore, even with Time-Serts installed.
It's nice that we can have these discussions and it doesn't get personal. On the BMW list someone will post that his bike pulls to the right or has a high speed wobble. Others will post that the guy is nuts because their bike doesn't do those things. I find to odd that someone would challenge another's actual experience simply because they have not had it happen to them. "Your bike can't be wobbling because mine is steady as a rock." An opinion offered without bothering to suggest realignment of rear wheel, checking steering head bearings, fork alignment, etc. Just a flat out implication that "You're just wrong."
I love my S1000XR, but I'm beginning to doubt that I'm really cut out for the true BMW ownership experience and attitude.
DavidR.
On the subject of does it dry out.........
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4165/33586756274_6acc9a78c3.jpg)
This is my bottle of anti seize. I bought this bottle for home use way back when and can trace it to an event 40 years ago, so I've had it at least that long. I can't even remember when it last had the cap on the applicator lid so it has been open to the air for many years.
I don't use it much these days but in light of the recent discussion here I opened it last night and dipped it.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4189/34043912320_2a6b143cf1.jpg)
No mixing, this is just how it came out.
Make what you want of it but they are the facts.
Hooli, you have obviously changed a lot of plugs in your day, why would you change your habits (or for that matter blame the AS) with only one failure out of thousands? One exception does not make a new rule nor prove a theory.
Why waste a good washer? Like you, I have never changed the washer on the sump plug. It's still good after about 30 oil changes :biggrin: I will change it when I see a drip.
Having said my bit on the subject of AS, I have no intention of adding further to it, but with only a few isolated cases of what may or may not have been related to the use of AS, I have not read anything here that would give me cause to re think nearly half a century of automotive experience. Then there's Bill's near half century and the other mechanics on the forum..........
While the subject is interesting, it is not important and everyone will go on doing exactly what they were doing before with not a single mind changed. Business as usual. :biggrin:
Noel
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 03, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
I love my S1000XR, but I'm beginning to doubt that I'm really cut out for the true BMW ownership experience and attitude.
DavidR.
Enjoy the experience. The attitude comes when you start hanging out with knobs without a single bug on their gear. Easy to stay away from. I've owned a '78 R80/7 and a '97 R1100GS. Enjoyed them both, but in hindsight preferred the R80.
It's unfortunate that a good product can get a reputation from a clique that treat the world as their ashtray. Is that too harsh a generalization? :scratch_one-s_head:
Sorry hijack over.
Quote from: ribbert on May 04, 2017, 10:33:14 AM
On the subject of does it dry out.........
Hooli, you have obviously changed a lot of plugs in your day, why would you change your habits (or for that matter blame the AS) with only one failure out of thousands? One exception does not make a new rule nor prove a theory.
Why waste a good washer? Like you, I have never changed the washer on the sump plug. It's still good after about 30 oil changes :biggrin: I will change it when I see a drip.
Noel
Noel,
My bottle of a/s is still very "wet" but it does separate as Randy mentioned. I have to stir it up before use, but it's plenty useable from the bottle. My observation is that it dries up over time once outside of the bottle. I've experienced dry out on brake caliper bolts and various frame bolts that I've used it on.
As far as changing my ways on spark plugs, at the time it seemed like a good idea to use it to protect the spark plug threads. From my experience (and evidently my and Randy's experience only) that proved to be a mistake. In addition to the problems on my '85, the plugs I pulled out of my '93 were also difficult. Fortunately no threads were pulled or stripped on the '93 and I was able to clean all residue off of the head and plugs. I blame the a/s because it's the ONLY variable that was different in all the other spark plug changes I've done. After discontinuing use, I've had no other issues. Perhaps I'm overlooking something? Phase of the moon, rotational direction of the universe, the fact that I changed to synthetic oil? ...... wait a minute ..... can I combine an anti-seize thread with an oil thread? :-)
Bottomline, from my experience, I'll never use it again on spark plugs. I no longer trust it in that application. I even researched and found a thread compound specifically for spark plugs; Thread-Life High Temperature Spark Plug Anti-Seize Compound. I can't bring myself to use it either.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 04, 2017, 08:47:43 PM
Noel,
..... Perhaps I'm overlooking something? Phase of the moon, rotational direction of the universe, the fact that I changed to synthetic oil? ......
Hooli, you have found the problem, I was loathe to bring it up but synthetic oil is clearly the culprit. :biggrin:
Seriously, you have at least applied your own criteria and first hand experience and made your own determination on the cause, whether that is the same as mine or not, matters not.
I can't argue with that.
Noel